One of my big problems is eating. If I eat too much, I get fat. If I don't eat enough, I get weak and the effect is cummulative.
So, I've been looking for answers. More answers, I already know a few things. I've got an extensive back ground in the sciences. A minor degree in chemistry, college level stuff, including lab work, on how the human body works. I've followed the writings in the University of California's Wellness Letter for about 15 years.
When we don't eat enough, the body goes into Stravation Posture. It literally consumes itself to give us the energy it needs to keep us going. It not only consumes fat, but muscles as well. At the same time. Well known process. Dieters loose muscle just as fast as they do fat. They can put fat back on far faster than their bodys can replace the lost muscle. That's why they gain it back so fast. They loose their muscle tissue as well as fat. Since muscle burns 98% of our calories, they can't keep it off like they used to.
The really important thing is how this process starts. The body's primary fuel is Glycogen. Our best sources are the complex carbohydrates. Our bodies can make Glycogen out of protein, and our own body tissues, like muscle, if it must. Fat is our emergency energy supply. It's primary function is to keep us alive as we strave, consuming out own bodys.
Normally, we have enough Glycogen in our bodys to allow us to burn our precious emergency fuel, fat, as well as Glycogen. But when we start running low of stored Glycogen, the first thing that happens is we stop using fat. The body starts using just our stored Glycogen. We feel hungry. We don't have much of it. Really fit people have the most. But all of us have little of it compared to our fat stores. When the stored Glcogen gets too low, we begin Stravation Posture. We start converting our muscle to Glycogen and using our hoarded fat. At the same time. This is sometimes known as Death March Syndrome. It produces all sorts of nasty by products which can take quite a while for the body to rid itself of. Our immunities to diseases lowers. We chill more easily, etc. All bad
Carbohydrates have a bad rap. Used at the point where we really need them, we need to use the right kind. Simple carbohydrates are the sugars. They are ready for immediate use. If we eat them at the point where our bodies are getiing too low on stored Glycogen, they overload the system. The body reacts with a heavy response of insulin to control the sugar spike. After the Glycogen level is under control, it takes a while for the insulin level to return to normal. In the meantime, there is no more fresh Glycogen entering the system. And the insulin in the system prevents the use of stored fat. We crash.
Complex carbohydrates don't do this to us. They allow a steady flow of new Glycogen to enter the body's muscle tissues slowly. They don't envoke an significant insulin response. Our energy level is maintained. Since our Glycogen levels are what we need, we can use fat as well as Glycogen for energy.
What gets me about all this, is I knew it already. Most of it. Except for the triggers and the insulin spike after effects.
How am I using this this hike farther, and maintain my energy levels ? I eat differently. I eat more. More complex carbohydrates, and much less fat. I eat between meals. Complex carbohydrates. I keep my fat level below 20% of all my caloric intake. Actually, 10% would be best. How does one do this ? Read the information on the package of food. If it has less than 4 grams of fat per serving, I won't get fat. Actually, I will loose fat and gain muscle. No Stravation Posture. I just keep my body's Glycogen level up so I can use fat.
I got this all pulled together in a great book, BodyFueling by Robyn Landis.
The next time I go into the boonies for a long, tough hike; I know what to eat. And when. No more Trail Mix with lots of nuts. Too much fat and too few complex carbohydrates. A Bagel, a low fat energy bar with minimal suger but lots of complex carbohydrates, or anything like these for a total of 30-75 grams of carbohydrates. No more tham 0-10 grams of fat. No going w/o at least a snack for longer than 3 hours. And a meal, two servings of protein, 12-16 grams, and four servings of carbohydrates, 60-150 grams worth, per meal, every 6 hours. E

E, like to talk to you more on this. Sent you a P.M.

Phil

Excellent post, E.

Kudos.

Rick

E:

On the nose!!

JimF

E,
well said on the insulin response due to simple sugar intake. I take advantage of that spike after working out by consuming simple carbs to help shuttle more of the protien from my next meal into the muscle. But at other times of the day, the higher insulin levels are definatley not benificial. But i dont see it on the fat intake. Dont you think that a decent amount of good fat intake from foods such as nuts, and fish fats and flax seeds with omega3's are important? I was under the impression that a higher fat intake slows the absorbtion rates of protien? Besides the health benefits of good fat intake, the nuts you might take on a trip are much more calorie dense, and convienent for packing. And they taste gooood!

I eat more. More complex carbohydrates

Thanks for the post...I can, and frequently do, go without eating anything but a bowl of cereal and lots of water in a 24 hour period of time while doing physical work and exercise. Not dieting, just not hungry. What are some examples of complx carbohydrates one can eat? Thanks.

I understand muscle build up requires lots of time, while fat is placed directly into storage. I don't know if you can speed the process by an insulin charge in the system. It doesn't make sense, but I really don't know.
You only burn fat when you have oxygen in the system, not during anaerobic activity. You must have plenty of glycogen in your system to do that. When the Glycogen level drops, the fat burn quits. It doesn't start back up until either your system recieves more glycogen from food intake, or it drops so low you enter Stravation Posture.
Fat is necessary. Your body can make it's own if it needs to from protein, and complex carbohydrates. Pretty hard to find food w/o some. You need little of it. A 10% fat diet is plenty healthy. E

Complex carbohydrates are all sort of breads, rice, beans, tortillos, Bagels, cakes, potatoes. Any kind of starch item in the diet. E

E,
Great thread, I printed it out for reference. Thanks, MtnHtr

The Glycemic indes (GI) is a measure of how much certain foods affect the blood sugar levels ( how fast they turn into sugar), in turn causing the insulin response. Just because a food is "complex" carbohydrates, doesnt mean it is any better at maintaing a steady blood glucose level. You have to look at the GI for the foods. For example, potatoes are commonly thought of as a good complex carbohydrate, but they have a GI higher than table sugar.

Insulin is the carrier of nutirients to your cells. Insulin also prevents the break down of body fat and the use of it for energy. When you eat low GI (glycemic index) carbs you greatly reduce the amount of insulin needed to shuttle the glucose to where it needs to be. Low GI carbs, because they maintain and steady blood glucose level, won't cause up and downs in energy levels like high GI carbs will.

Examples of high GI carbs are most cereals, bagels, white rice, potatoes, white bread, and basicly anything sugary, starchy, or processed. Some low GI carbs are barley, oats, brown rice, whole grain bread, beans, lentils, pinto and lima beans, and pasta.

check it out
here is some good info

I dated a diabetic girl for a while, so i did a lot of research on insulin and food. She is an athlete, and uses an insulin pump, and she would sometimes give herself an extra shot of insulin after a workout and before a meal. That is probably the only time when high gi carbs are really good. If you raise the insulin after a workout and before a meal, it really is effective in increasing the transfer of nutrients to the muscle cells.

I thought i would add: Fats are important. There are essential fatty acids, Linoleic Acid (LA) and Alpha Linolenic Acid (ALA) that the body cannot produce on its own. Monounsaturated fats can reduce blood cholesterol levels. Omega 3 fatty acids protect against heart disease by inhibiting the formation of blood clots. My opinion is people shouldnt drasticly reduce their fat intake, but they should get fats from good sources. I eat a ton of natural peanut butter <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> , and i eat a lot of fish. I read once somewhere, dont remember where, that the eskimos have the highest average fat intake and the lowest rate of heart disease. Food for thought <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I've got no argument with the idea that fats are essential. A most important vitamin group, for instance, are the fat soluble vitamins, like A, D, E, and K. They need fat to work as they should, etc. Another point is that even the "evil" fat that produces LDL cholesterol is a part of our cell wall composition. We gotta have some in our diet, and /or the body makes it.
Having a carbohydrate break down into sugar fast may be an issue for a diabetic, but not for most of us. It's the drop off the "sugar high" that hurts us, not the high itself. The fast acting carb food should last a while. The potatoe you mention as not a particularly good food, has the equivalent calories of three servings of carbohydrates. that means it will last for a while and allow the insulin levels to perform as they should. Naturally we should not eat just one complex carbohydrate food, but several. Table sugar, BTW, isn't easily, or very rapidly digested. But it will cause the spike and the drop because it is "empty calories." Simple sugars, the ones that hit us immediately, are the worst of the sugar spike and drop problem.
I do appreciate the information. Don't misunderstand me. I intend to use that information in making my food choices.
I understand the idea of getting proteins to the muscles as well. But repair of muscle, or addition of more muscle, comes most of the time when we sleep. When we are using them, the body is mostly concerned with flushing out waste products, supplying glycogen, and oxygen. It needs to do that first. Some of those waste products, like free radicals, will actually damage the cell walls, and the cells themselves just because they react like that.
The whole philosophy pushed in Bodyfueling is that we have a marvelous machine in our own bodys. If we give it what it works best on, it performs best.
My understanding is that Eskimos are remarkably heart attack free. But they do suffer from many other things associated with being overweight. Still the Omega3 fats are significant. I eat Tuna, for instance. A great, low fat whole protein source. E

Finally, a post telling me that I NEED to eat <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Fortunately I've always been a whole-grain bread fan. Maybe it's even good for me (just downed three slices for lunch).

Regarding trail nutrition, here's an opinion for testing. We all know that good nutrition is necessary. Ample vitamins, minerals, fatty and amino acids, etc. But for the three day trip, the danger of undereating is greater than the danger of, say, contracting scurvy. Especially if it might get cold. So I don't feel bad about doing without fresh juice and veggies, and don't worry about suppliments. But I do eat. One of my cold country nightime routines is to eat before bed -- normally a no no.

Also, we've got 3 big colleges locally so there is always plenty of sports and sports training news. One piece last summer was about the diets of football players. The nutritionist (and these schools spare no expense in the atheletic arena) said that the bigggest problem with the lads was getting them to get enough carbs. Seems they liked to fill up on steak and proteins. The nutritionist stated that the desired high-performance ratio was 60% carbohdrates, 20% proteins, and 20% fats (that is, percent of total calories consumed). I expected those big muscleheads to need more protein for growing muscle tissue, but not so. Come to think of it, bulls get pretty big without protein, but then we lack their guts. Anyway, thought it was interesting. Had fooled with the idea of creating a 2,000 calorie per day diet comprised of my favorite eats in the prescribed ratio, but that made my head hurt so I just grabbed some cookies and sat down w/ the TV ...

This has been an informative thread because it has illuminated some misconceptions that many folks carry with them.

Among the opinions that I have formed re: nutrition are the following.

Clearly, athletes (including us) need more calories, but in about the same proportions of Carb, Protien, fat, as non athletes.

Re: Diet proportions....there is no real answer other than the fact that a 10% fat content is very hard to achieve (read Nathan Pritken) Small variations of the 60/20/20 are all fine, they all work, and nobody will be injured with anything close to this percentage.

"Whole foods" are a pet subject for me, but I am fully aware that in the short term, it does not matter that much. (Still....I try for whole foods while backpacking when I can realistically use them)

Muscle fuel is provided by glycogen not by protein.

This may surprise some, but as Sean said, Carbohydrate (is) an important component of Protein absorption. (however, not for the reason we might think)

Explanation of last:

The body's first priority during exertion is to process glycogen in order to provide fuel for ongoing activity, (or) to replenish depleted energy stores. The body processes simple or complex Carbs to replace muscle glycogen that is depleted during exertion. If the Carb intake is insufficient (or, too short lived....as in simple sugars) to supply enough glycogen, then the body will process dietary protien to provide fuel (energy) ((this is very inefficient)) When this happens, the protein does not get fully broken down into the amino acids that are necessary for cell reconstruction.

Sean's thesis that he needs to consume Carb to facilitate protien absoption is correct. However, the carbs do not accelerate or facilitate the absorption of protien into the muscle. The carbs prevent the body from processing the protien for energy and allow the time consuming process of amino acid conversion to take place.

That's enough from me for now, but we should keep this thread alive as it is very beneficial to us all.

JimF

I would add that processing protein into glycogen is very messy as well. The process produces lots of tough to handle waste products and free radicals that, by themselves, do harm if not removed promptly.
Another I might note is nobody, not even pregnant women, or nursing moms, need much over 60 grams of protein per day. Many can get along with about 35 grams. Any extra protein is turned into fat and stored.
Another little interesting item is that we can't store more than 1200-1400 calories worth of glycogen. That's why snacking is such a good idea for us. I understand a snack every three hours and a meal every 6 hours seems to work best. I also understand there is nothing wrong with a snack before bed. If I am up beyond 3 hours after dinner, I snack. E

Thank you guys for excellent info. Will digest it later. I'm kind of dashing through repacking bags between trips. My trouble is being overweight. My major blimp up came during three years of serious illness, more than a year of that on on massive doses of weight inducing prednisone, plus wild metabolism gyrations due to thyroid ups and downs. Am having more trouble getting the weight off than I expected, mainly due to schedule and personal discipline in the face of said schedule. Need to be back on the beach skin diving daily ( with half mile swims out to the best reefs) or back on the ranch bucking bales rather than walking past Cinnabon shops in airports with time on my hands. Do you know that in Istanbul they have fabulous bakeries? That's complex carbos, right? You can sit at a table on the cobblestone street with a cup of superb coffee and a baked confection too complex to describe. At one of the upscale places it will set you back a mere 5 million or so, and that even feels good when you know it is under $3.00. Yes, discipline... Need a desert march with Eremicus, then on to winter camping in a snow cave at 10K elevation with JimF, and shock aversion treatment for bakeries.

Yeah i can see how thyroid fluctuations or low thyroid would make weight loss nearly impossible. Have you talked to your doctor about medications to boost or regulate your thyroid?

Yep, I'm on a thyroid suppressant now. Actually, one of my first noticeable symptoms was a rapid weight loss from hyperthyroid Graves Disease (too much thyroid production) causing high metabolism, rapid heart rate, and a dozen other symptoms including hair loss and loss of low light vision. I mention the symptoms as an alert to anyone else. They were clues no one noticed a full six months before my sudden onset of severe eye problems. The average GP doctor often misses thyroid symptoms in a man, and does not recognize rare severe Graves eye cases for what they are even when correctly diagnosed as Graves.

A quick memory count puts me on my 16th medical doctor from two countries plus a naturopath or two, etc., three major surgeries and some lesser ones, about 30 meds and another 67 lotions, potions, cures and healers recommended by well meaning friends. (I kept a list). I am so grateful to have my eyesight back that I get emotional about it. It was good enough to see and shoot a 4x5 elk in November.

I'm glad we still have you hunting too, OK. Your one of my favorite "go lite" experts. E

Wow, im glad you are back in the game. So it sounds like you pretty much have it under conrol now, thats great. I cant imagine the frustration to have to see than many doctors to get it taken care of. Congratulations on the Bull!

Thank you, gentlemen, my regard for you is mutual. I got a reprieve and don't have to leave till tomorrow.

The high count of docs is partly due to having my health insurance drop me part way through the illness, good old reliable Regency Blue Cross. So I became a medical refugee. The other reason for lots of docs (I left out guys like anesthetists or anesthesiologists) is due to going to a teaching research doctor who does a show and tell thing, especially with severe patients, teaching younger doctors who do all but the tough stuff and aid him in those procedures. When I got to the first level of specialists, the doc leaned back after examining me and said, "You are lucky. You have an interesting case." That's kind of a mixed luckiness, but he was right in that it got me into the top docs right away.

Hunt and enjoy life while you can. My last elk hunt before being struck nearly blind I remember stumbling in the dusk and needing a flashlight when others could easily see, of being super sensitive to cold (slept out on the trail of an elk one night without a sleeping bag anyway) and having all kinds of odd vision and sensory abberations that I attributed to sudden aging. My blindness did not come soon enough to spare a beautiful 5x6 bull however on that trip. His image in the snowy sunlit timber was a sustaining memory during my foggy groggy days. Also, take charge of your own case if you have a serious illness, or have somone who loves you and is close do it.

I thought I'd post an update, and a caution.
Roblyn Landis has a website, www.Bodyfueling.com. It contains things like updates, comments on the revival of high protein-high fat diests, etc.
Now before you guys go over there and start reading, I want to caution you. Her basic philosophy is the same. Read carefully and note this. But, she has become a vegeatarian. This is a personal choice, not what she pushes as "the word". We need to remember the main thrust of her position, then as now, is eat prperly, HOW to eat properly and why. What is does for you. On top of that, she goes at great lenths, in her book, as now, to get us out of diet thinking. She advocate no "diet". Just some advice on how to eat better. She says things like forget about weight. Your eyes will tell you if your fat, not your bathroom scale. Your body will function better in many areas if you give it what it wants and needs. You be the judge. There are no "must do's". It 's your call.
She has changed some of the fine points of her personal diet. She now eats a bit more protein, up to 70 grams a day. And a bit more "good" fat like olive oil with, or in her food. This is her personal fine tuning. But she still says the same basics. And emphaisizes that those are the key points. You, when armed with the facts, decide where you want to go.
Lots of detailed discussions on diabetic foods, and why. Lots on discussions on insulin resistance, and descriptions on what insulin does, besides control blood sugar levels.
Sean, I think this is what you were refering to.
I already feel better. I never feel really hungry anymore. My coffee intake has dropped. I don't seem to need more than two cups a day or want more.
I've got a doctors appointment Friday. I'm going to have a general checkup. We'll see if that reveals anything. E

I'm seeing some very positive results. The doctor, BTW, says I'm going to live a long time. A lot of it is because I'm eating right. He made a note of Bodyfueling's web site.
I've always tried to stay in shape in the winter. I don't walk unless the weather is good, which much of the time it isn't. Or the snow is too soft and I sink, even in snowshoes.
So, I use a Nordic Track machine. It allows me to monitor my heart rate and adjust the reisitance of the pulleys, etc.
My usual workout is 35-40 mins. long. I can literally see the differences and compare myself to my past performance.
When I start out, in the fall, it often takes me only 2 - 2.5 mins to reach 140 beats per minute. Then I slow down until my heart reaches 125 bpm. Then I grab the pulleys again and head back up. Interval training. Usually I reach a point where it takes me over 4 mins. to reach 140 bpm. And my distance increases inside that 35-40 time period. By the start of the hiking season, I'm going 1.8 to 1.9 miles in 20-21 mins.
That has changed. I'm now taking longer than 5 mins to reach 140 bpm. Yesterday it took almost 6 mins. I broke the 2 mile in 20 mins barrier a couple of days ago. I did 2 miles in 18 mins and 20 secs yesterday.
The really different part is I'm not exhausted when I'm done. I'm tired and very wet, but, after about 15-20 mins I fell fine. An hour later I feel like it didn't happen. After the first 10-15 mins, I feel really good, with lots of energy. Even better than when I started.
I suspect these new eating habits are going to make a real difference from now on. I should have paid more attention when I younger. Oh, well. Better late than never. E

Great post Guys. please keep it going. I gave up smoking 3 weeks ago after 2 & 1/2 packs for 25 years. I also have 25 lbs of weight to lose so the past few days, I have been looking around at various sites on nutricien. I am planning to start on the Atkins diet because I love to eat meat and have lots of meat available (Moose). I also plan to get a few seals over the next couple of weeks. Some of you guys seem pretty knowlegeable concerning nutricien. Any of you guys have any experience with the Atkins Diet.
Bye the way, I have been enjoying reading your postings for the past several months. I love backcountry hunting by foot and boat. My backpacking trips have been pretty low tech but some have been fairly intensive.
Thanks .
Bogslogger

re: Atkins diet. I have tried it twice and apparently my body switches to ketosis (the fat burning mode) very quickly. The first time I tried it I felt lousy though I lost weight rapidly all the way through. I was excercising quite a bit at the time, leading into an elk hunt. After about 18 days I started eating fruit and carbos while on the hunting trip, and felt better immediately.

The second time I tried it I lasted much longer and felt great the whole time, and lost considerable weight. That was six or seven years ago. I've had some thyroid balancing trouble in the years since so I have stayed away from the Atkins and related diets. I just won't risk tinkering with metabolism so drastically given my ongoing health problems. I took multi vitamins and drank lots of water both times I was on the diet.

This is neither an endorsement nor criticism of the Atkins thing, just a relating of one person's experience. It "worked" in terms of losing weight.

I've been taking the University of California at Berkely's news letter, "The Wellness Letter" for many years now. It is published to counter the claims of fads, frauds and misquotes by the media. They, and Bodyfueling, talk about the Adkins Diet.
The Adkins diet is a diet, which is the first thing wrong with it. When you diet, you loose weight by eating less than your body needs. Your body goes into Stravation Posture. You start consuming both fat and muscle at the same time. When you get to your targeted weight, or just stop; you have lost muscle mass which has taken years to aquire. Since 98% of you calories, no matter where you get them from, are consumed by the muscles, you will gain the weight back with suprising speed. And you will not have the muscle mass to allow the performance you want in the field.
It does work if you only want to loose weight. But, it, and every other diet known, are failures because you will have less ability to maintain your weight and you will have less muscle mass when you are done.
The theory is you loose weight because the fat rich diet will kill your craving for food. But it is really tough on the body. It must not only consume itself, it must convert some of the protein you eat into Glycogen to fuel itself. This conversion creates lots of bad by products that are hard on your body's ability to deal with them.
Bodyfueling trys to get you thinking not about weight, but percentage of body fat. Following it, this percentage of body fat should go down. That's because you will be eating alot less fat than previously. It seems to in my case. Frankly, I don't care. I'm not overweight by any standard. I'm not at "an ideal weight", but again, I don't care. All my medical tests are good, with the exceptionm of my HDL cholesterol. Which I am now consuming more of. I can afford it. My overall fat consumption is way down as a result of following the guidelines in Bodyfueling. What I really care about is my performance. I want to keep Death March Syndrome at bay. I want more muscle mass. This new eating style appears to be working for me like nothing I've ever seen. The funny thing is, I'm eating more and almost never hungry. I snack between meals and do even better than when I don't. E

Ok:

I'd suspect that you felt lousy because you were not able to replace muscle glycogen effectively. If all you have to process for glycogen replacement is protien, you body will do that. (But it won't like it much)

I don't know enough about the Atkins diet to comment, but E's comments are sound ones. I think that the fact that you were exercising heavily during the same period that you were on the Atkins regimen was a bad combination. (kind'a like running and smoking)

JimF

Ok, a diet is what you eat. The atkins diet is designed to make your body lose fat. Everyone has a diet, the diet consists of the food they eat. The atkins diet is extrememly effective in losing bodyfat. My roomate is currently folowing his own "modified "atkins diet, and the results have been outstanding. 50lbs lost in threee months. I think it is too drastic, but we all make our choices. I personally souldnt follow the atkins diet, because i dont think it is that healthy in the long term.

My thought on diet are a lot different than E's. I think lots of high GI complex carbs and low fat and protein are counter-productive to losing bodyfat. One of the most neglected thing in regards to the what we want from a certain "diet", is excersise. After that, it is eating the wrong foods. Not really the wrong foods, because they arent really bad, just the wrong proportions. And another mistake is not eating often enough. My preferred diet breakdown: 200 to 300 grams of protien a day (~1.5 grams per pound of bodyweight). I shoot for 30-50 grams per meal. Stay away from fatty red meat (some is ok once in a while, let your concience decide), and processed food as protien sources, because the "bad" fats. I switched from jif peanut butter to natural and from margerine to real butter because of the fats. Eat fruits and vergatables. Split your remaing calories up evenly between carbs and fats. Good fats are important, dont cut them out of your diet. Most people dont consume too much fat, just too much of the wrong fat, and not enough of the good. Consume mostly low GI carbs. I followed this diet for over a year, and dropped bodyfat and gained muscle mass with heavy weight training. I think of it as just a guideline for eating, instead of a set diet i couldnt imagine sticking to a planned out diet every day.

I really started to love oatmeal in the mornings. 50-60 grams carbs from dry uncooked oatmeal in the bender, 50 grams of protein powder, and a couple big spoons of natural peanut butter, add milk and blend. Mmm tasty.

Now i can talk all i want, but i am a complete slouch and havent followed my own advice for the last few months, my excuse being school, and it being hard to eat often. My other excuse is cost. Neither are real, they are in my head im just s slacker. So if i dont follow my own advice, i sure dont expect you to. But i have hooked a lot of people on my breakfast shake, everyone loves it! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Actually Sean, I don't see too much that is different. Your protein intake is higher. Anything more than what you need is converted by the body into fat. Another process which the body doesn't do well.
What each of us needs varys. Anything from 35 to maybe 80 grams a day are the ball park figures I've seen. It doesn't have to be animal protein. But, with animal protein, you are getting a complete protein. It has everything all in one item.
The US average for fat intake is about 42% of our total calories. That's why we are so fat. Too much complex carbohydrates can be converted to fat as well. But, it is much more bulky than fat, therefore you eat more volume and feel full, and the other is that the body takes 25% of the caloric value of the excess carbohydrates to convert them to fat. It is much harder to get fat from too much carbohydrate intake than from fat. The ample carbo intake also kills one's feelings of hunger because your body doesn't crave glucose in the form of hunger.
You are quite right about "good" fats. We need them. But, switching from margerine to real butter won't do any real good. Try switching from margerine, or butter, to olive oil. Or simply eat less of it.
Eating more complex carbohydrates, and reducing the daliy intake of fats under 30%, did, in fact, reduce the body fat on a whole group of carefully monitored women in one well documented study. They ate whatever they wanted to. As long as their daily fat intake remained under 30% of their total caloric intake. I mean, they ate between meals, and had lots to eat with each meal. Over the period of a year, they lost about 2 lbs. a month in weight. Some of them exercised and some didn't. They just changed their proportions and eat whatever and whenever they wanted.
Your quite right about exercise. Some is good, and more is better. I suspect you added muscle mass and reduced your body fat because you had enough carbohydrates in your body to keep your body from going into that pre stravation posture condition where it stops using fat in anticapation of going into stravation posture.
The thing I've discovered is how much hidden fat occurs in the things we eat. But, the good news is there are lots of things out there that allow us to reduce out fat intake. I find I'm actually spending less money than I did before. I cook more, and eat alot more volume wise. The simple rule I follow is "eat whatever I want, when ever I feel like it. I eat nothing with 4 grams, or more, of total fat per serving. I try to stay with those things under 3 grams. " An occasional fatty item isn't a problem. Just the long term, or regulart consumption of them.
When I go food shopping, I read the lablels of everything before I buy it. The thing I really like about my new eating philosophy is I enjoy what I eat more and I never get really hungry. E

Just one small correction about the Atkins diet. On it, you don't lose because you eat fewer calories than your body needs. I would kick start my Atkins runs by eating a big breakfast of bacon and eggs, followed by steaks and bacon for lunch, etc. My appetite never did wane and I ate as much meat as I wanted, and I do like meat. I would sprinkle bran on stuff sometimes to make sure I was getting enough fiber. I was eating mostly elk, moose or deer meat and there wasn't a lot of fat, hence the bacon, but when I'd eat a beef steak I love the fat from those. It is not a low cal diet but (if I understand it correctly) works by depriving the body of carbos and forcing it to turn to burning fat. The fat comes either from food eaten or from body reserves, and apparently in that case, the body reserves are the easiest source. I'd have to assume that the body is passing through a lot of unmetabolized fat and protein. Again, I am not advocating it and think it is both impractical and unhealthy long term, maybe even in short term. It is critical that you drink lots of water or you can damage internal organs on such a high protein/fat diet. The biggest problem to me was the lack of fruit, or minimal fruit.

As I understand it for all my sources, you only use fat for energy under two conditions. One is where the body has lots of glucose in it and plenty of stored Glycogen. Then it will use it's emergency fuel supply - fat. Assuming enough oxygen is present. Or when the body is on stravation posture. Then you use fat and muscle tissue at the same time. The body is forced, by the Atkins Diet, to convert protein to glycogen/glucose to function. Your nervous system, for instance, does not use fat for fuel. It must have glycogen or glucose. The body can't store much Glycogen, maybe 1200-1400 calories worth.
Atkins disputes this. But, a couple of things are very clear. Nobody has found a 20% fat, 60% carbohydrate, and 20% protein diet unhealthy. You live best on it. So say almost all the studies. As Sean said you need enough "good" fat. And the simple sugars are to be avoided.
The Atkins Diet can't be used for long. All agree on this. It fails just like all the other diets. You loose muscle tissue when dieting. And your muscle burn 98% of your calories.
BTW, vension is one of the healthiest meats around. Almost no bad cholesterol and up to 50% protein. The best beef rarely has more than 20% protein.
UC Berkeley's Wellness Letter had this to say about such diets in their Nov. 2002 editions.
Atkins: "Americans have shifted to low fat diets, but have still gained weight."
UC: "Americans are eating just as many grams of fat as they did 20-30 years ago, or slightly more. The overall percentage of fat has dropped, but we've accomplished that by eating more high carbohydrate (usually sugary) foods and soft drinks. ....we're consuming 300 to 500 more calories per day. That's a big difference and a very unhealthy scenario. "
Atkins: "People gain weight because carbohydrate-rich foods (everything from pasta, bread, and rice to fruits, vegetables and "sweets") actually make them hungrier".
UC: There is no evidence that most high-carbohydrate foods stimulate appetite. Sugary, or starchy foods, when eaten by themseleves, can cause a spike in insulin level, followed by a drop in blood sugar, and thus may leave some people hungry in an hour or two. But not all carbohydrate rich foods do this, certainly not most vegetables and fruits, beans, and whole grains, or even starchy foods when eaten as part of a balanced meal. And. by the way, most people who say they crave carbohydrates or have a "sweet tooth" actually overindulge in combinations of fat and sugar, such as cakes and ice cream, not plain sugary foods like jellybeans. "
Atkins: " It has never been proven that a carbohydrate rich diet can promote weight control and good health. "
UC: "Not true. Many studies have shown that the right kind of high carb diet can help people loose weight and reduce the risk of heart disease, diabetes, and certain cancers. " E

Thanks for the info on the Atkins guys.
I am eating lots of protein,most of it from game. I love meat. For fats since most game is lean I'm using olive oil plus I eat beef now and again. I have cut all simple carbohydrates such as sugar,white bread, basically anything made with white flour. The worst is as Okanagan said it the cutting out of fruit and juices. The first phase is to cut severely on the carbs to get the body into kertosis. After 2 weeks I can eat limited complex carbohydrates. I have got to say though that by quitting smoking and cutting out sugars and proccessed food I feel great. I am walking 5 miles a day on pretty rough terrain and really feel as if I am getting in shape. The seal hunt is in full swing here in Newfoundland so sealmeat is available. This should be great for the diet that I am on. Basically for me the only thing I have change from my regular diet is for two weeks to severely restrict carbohydrates.After two weeks I am going to resume complex carbs in limited quantities but I hope to stay away from simple carbs for good. Thanks for the help and info guys
Gordy

Meat is good. But understand that a prolonged diet of lots of red meat contributes to buildup and eventual blockage of your arteries. Heart disease. Game is better than beef, but make sure you not consuming too much animal fat, unless it is from fish. There are lots of good protien sources that dont have the bad animal fat. Nonfat cottage cheese, poultry, fish, egg whites, and powdered protein blends (whey,casein,soy) proteinfactory.com are good ways to add the protein without the bad fats. I absolutly love the penta pro from protein factory, it tastes awsome and is a really good mix of different proteins, and its much cheaper than even canned tuna fish. Its not a substitute for whole food protein, just a easy and effective way to add more. Obviously i am more of a believer in higher protein diets, i think equal amounts (calories) of protein fats and carbs are the way to go ~33%/33%/33%. Note that fat has nine calories per gram and protein and carbs have four per gram. It is very easy to eat too much fat, and the reason that makes you fat is because your overall calorie intake is much higher.

In the end it is your overall calorie intake that determines if you gain or lose weight. Your diet just decides the proportion of fat and muscle you gain or lose (along with exercise). It is very very difficult to gain muscle without gaining fat, and very very difficult to lose fat without losing muscle. The only way to do either without illegal drugs is to do it very slowly with a good diet and exercise. Changes in overall calorie intake need to be small, and it takes a lot of time.

Basically, good stuff Sean. I don't agree on the percentages, but good, basic info. E

When Will Steger was making his way under his own power to the North Pole, he would eat sticks of butter for the fat. Many of you obviously know much more about this than I, but I think fat gets a bad rap. When someone is on a backpack trip I really don't think they need to worry about taking in too much fat. It is the most "dense" form of energy. Any comments?

Fat is your body's emergency fuel. It is used by the body to keep you alive under stravation conditions. If you carrying the minimum, or starving, you bet fat would be the thing to eat.
To burn fat as energy, though, you need to have plenty of glucose, or glycogen in your system, or be starving. And you need plenty of oxygen to burn it.
Fat is necessary to utilize and store the fat soluble vitamins as well. The so called good cholesterol - HDL- actually counteracts the effects of of the "bad", LDL cholesterol. But, even "bad cholesterol"" is necessary for good health. It is an essential part of cell wall constuction, for instance.
The trouble is we, in the US and Canada, eat too much of it. 62% of us are too fat. E

The BodyFueling philosophy is working for me.
Every summer, I hike a canyon as a casual day hike and workout. It's almost 2.5 miles, one way, and a 700 plus ft elevation change. The temperatures are often in the 90's.
Yesterday, I came all the way out w/o stopping. I've never done this well before. Not even close. True, I did make sure I was breathing regularly, and deeply, trough my mouth. I cut back somewhat, at the steep areas, on my stride.
I also ate a high carb snack 30 mins before coming out.
I'm convinced this "bodyfueling" philosophy really works. E

I'm in trouble.

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Rick

I've been following the Atkins approach. Avoiding sugar and low carbo. The carbo I do consume are in the form of fruits and vegetables, very little complex carbo. I have lost 20 lbs in the last three months eating lots of meat, and cheese. My energy levels have increased. I use to get sleepy in the afternoons, but since I've been eating a low carbo diet this doesn't happen anymore.

The best information I have is the Atkins Diet does work - in the short term. The high fat intake kills one's appetite, resulting in fewer total calories consumed. Like all diets, it works because you consume less calories than you need. And, like all diets, the loss is as much muscle mass as fat. No long term studies have been done of the Atkins Diet. But all other diets that have had long term studies done indicate that the lost weight comes back in the form of even more fat. That's because the body must burn glucose as well as fat. When the Glycogen stores burn out, and this doesn't take long, the body starts using up muscle tissue to produce glucose. Our nervous system, for instance, can't use fat for fuel. This is why we can't think too clearly when we are exhausted.
The only true long term study I know of which involved permanent weight loss was done with a bunch of women. Ages ranged from the 20's to the 60's. They ate as often as they wanted and as much as they wanted. But, they ate nothing with more than 4 grams of fat per serving. Some exercised and some didn't. They were monitored to see if they really did eat what they were suppose to, etc. All of them lost between 1 and 2 lbs of weight per month, for the whole two years of the study. After the study was over, some went back to their old eating habits. And started gaining body fat. Those that consumed 20-30% of their calories in fat, did not regain their body fat.
Atkins is patially right on one point. Some carbohydrates are bad. The simple carbohydrates, sugars, when eaten alone. Sugars give one the well known insulin spike which not only makes one feel hungry, but also locks up one's Glycogen stores. But, when consumed with other complex carbohydrates in sufficent quantity, they do no harm at all.
Our body's need both, all the time. Fat, however, does only one job, and can't be converted into any other nutrient. Excess carbohydrates can be converted to fat, but rarely are. Excess proteins are regularly converted to fat. Or, under stravation (dieting) conditions converted to glucose. But fat is always fat and is only used as energy with glucose. E