I've been having a problem with the search feature, it's driving me nuts.

Any suggestions on a synthetic 0-10 degree lightweight bag?

My favourite for the past few years has been the Calgary-Alberta made "North Twin" by Integral Designs. I think that,although ID was sold some time ago,these are still available on the "ID Tactical" website and they are well worth checking out.

There are many on the market, but, my experience with sleeping out in cold weather,which spans 48+ years and using quite a number of different bags, down and synthetics, is that few really meet the claims of their makers. The ID Primaloft bags DO and their "combo" as shown on the site above is the best hunting bag setup I have ever used.

Have you used quite a number of bags because it takes quite a number to cover your belly? I thought you liked WIGGY

What Kute said. Integral Designs is as far as ya gotta look.
Bear in Fairbanks

One thing I learned the hard way about synthetic bags, get a colder bag than you think you will need, synthetic loses some loft initially and as a result loses some of its warmth.

We have four of the Kifaru bags, very light, stuff down extremely small and really warm. We got the regular size, for the boys they are plenty big, but if you dont like to be wrapped up like a sausage, get the bigger one.

Keahi,

I used to use a synthetic bag. One cold Rocky Mountain deer hunt got me back into a goose down bag.

The suggestion about buying a colder than you think you'll need synthetic bag is spot on.

Check out REI's Outlet store.

Or you can take Rosie O'Donnell. You'll stay warm running from her!


Take care,

R

Just my 2 cents....For cold weather I will spend what it takes to get quality.
Don't cheap out on cold weather gear. I will usually skimp on the warmer weather gear if I have to skimp somewhere....and always test your cold weather gear before you get out somewhere where things could turn ugly.
That said, I use down in the winter, and use caution not to get down wet.
I only use synthetics above freezing, but that's just me.

I still don't see many advantages to synthetic. The idea that some water makes down worthless, is somewhat overblown. Synthetics don't work as well wet, it's just to a lesser degree. A good DWR should keep down dry, unless you are sleeping outside, in a real storm with no other protection. Down drapes better, compacts smaller, and is warmer per the same weight. Down will last practically forever with a bit of care. Synthetics don't work as well when compressed extremely, will loose loft over time, and have a shorter life expectancy. I've made several synthetic quilts, they have a place, but usually as an additional layer but not for light, small and warm. The only real advantage I can come to with any synthetic is as an overbag to allow better moisture movement in long term conditions consistently below freezing. This is for all synthetics including climashield. Yes it's good, about like 600 fill down, and it's cheap to make a bag. It just isn't like a real / good quality down.

I've got some good information from various threads on this site. This ^ response is some of the most down-to-earth, well thought out that I've read. Just good common sense.


I've always have one of those head scratching moments when it's mentioned that down looses it's insulating capability when wet. Heck, EVERTHING loses it's insulating capabilities when it gets wet, at least to some significant degree. I would think the difference between wearing a soaked jacket(or bag) filled with polypro vs. a soaked jacket(or bag) filled with down would be irrelevant to survival in an extreme situation.

I have to disagree Kevin, above freezing with high humidity, lots of rain and no exertanl heat source for drying, synthetic has a clear advantage.

Once down gets wet, it is worthless and difficult to dry, not so with synthetics.

The thing about getting any piece of gear wet that is designed to keep you warm plain and simple will not work with cold water saturated into it. Now, you are trying to use your body heat to dry out a sleeping bag as well as keeping warm. Rain in the mountains is ridiculous cold, throw in freezing temperatures and obviously water freezes. When 30 some odd degree water gets soaked into anything you will get cold. The better the effort you make to keep the bag dry, the better it will function regardless of synthetic or Down(I have a 10 year old down bag that I have never gotten cold in, even when a little wet).

Floorless shelters with a stove are great for this reason. When the bag can be dried out well, game on for a good night of sleep.

This post from BPL has some data on loft vs. wet and loft vs. packing

Insulation and usage

In short, the post is a few years old however:
Loss of thermal value when wet
Down 60% / Climashield 40% / Primaloft 10%.
Loss through compression cycles : Climashield 30% / Primaloft 30% , down perhaps 10%.

Granted some newer insulation may be slightly different, and climashield will dry quicker than down.

I'll take down for longevity, cozy factor and weight. If I feel wetness is likely to be a problem, I'll use something with primaloft (HPG Serape or similar) to provide additional insulation. For what it is worth, my down quilt and a HPG serape combined will weigh less than 4 lbs, be wearable, and should keep me warm well below 0.

If you plan on getting a climashield bag, perhaps over rate it by 30% to account for the eventual loss of loft.

I had 3 Kifaru Slick bags and a woobie(climasheild). I now have sold all the slick bags and there is a reason for that. I do not want to get to far into it but one reason was the ratings were off by 10-15 degrees. I would sell my woobie too but it is pretty much been destroyed from packing and re-packing. I use it as a dog blanket around camp, it now has a bunch of burn holes in it from that.

I am staying with a 30-40 degree down bag and a HPG Serape. That will be good from 50 to 0 degrees. The Serape still provides you with that "synthetic insulation protection" if your gear gets wet. I did not like the weight at first using this combo but like Kevin has said before I am starting to look more at function, quality, and durabilty than worring about the weight.

I agree on the Serape weight, it's hard to argue with 4 lbs for below 0 to much though. A lighter weight Serape that did not sacrifice function would be great, but of course there is always give and take. I look at gear as effort, efficiency and reliability. Effort is usually weight based, but other things account as well (air , stoves etc, how comfortable a pack is), efficiency is making sure you have enough comfort / food to be efficient. No one is efficient after a freezing night (although I was surprised how well I did pacing someone in the hard rock 100 on the second sleepless night and day). Reliability , well that's pretty self explanatory (for instance, I always carry iodine as a backup or more than one way to start a fire). Function, quality and durability to guide gear choices will get you a long way as well. Using some simple principles as a guide, it's easy to see what gear works for you. Sometimes we get to OCD with weight, and although it's good to keep an eye on, you can loose sight of the objective. Face it, I'd much rather carry 15 lbs in the BC than 30. However, if I can reliable account for all conditions and function effectively at 20 lbs, it's a win vs. a 30% chance of being wet, cold and hungry at 15 lbs. Planning for a thru hike today, as I was taking a break on a trail run, the difference for me may be as low as 2 lbs (as long as I'm not taking a large shelter or stove) with adding two pounds a sweet setup. In reality, I'll probably add about 20 ounces, to my thru hike setup and add bug protection, and a CCF pad vs. the lightest setup with a bivy / tarp and lightest sleeping pad setup.

How do you translate overrating a bag by 30% into degrees?

Just straight across 30% = 30 degrees?

No it's amount of loft vs degrees. So for instance, take 1.5 " of loft would probably translate into a certain rating say "X". Loosing 30% of loft would yield barely over an inch of loft, which would translate into "Y".

For instance 6 ounce Cliashield, says loft of 1 - 2". From experience for me, a new quilt made out of it was perhaps an optoistic 30 degree rating. If it's loft was .7 - 1.4", it would probably be closer to a 45 -50 degree rating. I think Ray Jardine advised to not over compress his quilts, which I believe are Climashield. Avoiding extreme compression, probably reduces the effect.

I'm not purposefully raging on Climashield, just stating some realistic expectations. Sure, the new combat and apex probably perform better for weight / warmth, but is it different technology ? If not, I would expect the results over time to be similar.

There is nothing wrong with feathers . There are lots of old bags (sleeping bags .. not wives, with feathers) that still keep you warm at night.

Although I've been hunting/camping for years, I'm certainly not an expert by any stretch. That said, the coldest that I have EVER been was on a deer hunt in South Dakota in a non, or poorly heated camp trailer using a moderately priced 0 degree synthetic bag. Based on this experience, I'd pick a down bag over a synthetic bag every time. If I was concerned about getting a down bag wet, I'd spend the extra bucks and get a bivy sack constructed of Event or other light-weight, waterproof fabric. The combination that has kept me warm in every situation is my Mountain Hardware Phantom 0 degree bag with an Integral Designs Event bivy sack. I might add that my tent is a floor-less, single wall Sil Dome tarp tent, also made by Integral designs. I'll use this combo again this year on a 2nd rifle season elk hunt in CO, without much worry about weather. Although I will hope not to encounter a big snow event using the tarp tent, I think it would perform fine with the bag and bivy sack. I'm not necessarily plugging this gear but just sharing that it is light-weight combination that has worked well for me.

If I were in the market for a new Syn. sleeping bag, this would be the one...

http://www.kifaru.net/slickbag.html

I've got the now discontinued Kifaru 0 deg. MOB(Modular Over Bag) and have had great luck with it.

I've never owned a down bag...synthetics have been fine for me.

Can anybody steer me to a site that sells the Integral tactical sleeping bags?
Im looking at the North Twin and the renaissance.

By the way, I should have included this earlier in the first post.
I will be hunting the 2nd rifle season in north western Colorado in the Rout NF and will be using a 3 season tent with a US mil gore tex bivy to cover the bag.

Thanks again for all your help.

If you are going for a winter synthetic bag, I wouldn't spend towards the premium end too much. I say that because synthetic fills just don't have the life that down does.
Two brands of synthetic I've used and like are the Big Agnes and The North Face. I'm not completely sold on the no filling on bottom of the BA but it seems to work so long as you use a very good bottom pad.
I'd choose more on features than a particular brand. Sticking with a good brand helps ensure the temp rating is at least in the ball park. Make sure the bag fits you. A slim cut on a big guy is miserable. A too short bag is also miserable. For a cold weather bag, having good draft tubes at the side, a draft collar and a hood that snugs well are important. With winter weight synthetic bags I'm not as concerned with weight as packed size.

Insulation is created by loft, which is "dead air" space. Synthetics retain loft, even when wet. Down compresses when wet and eliminates "dead air" space. Kind of like - "this is your brain, these are drugs ..... sizzle, sizzle ..... this is your brain on drugs" - sort of thing.

I have each of Mountain Hardwear's flagship 15-degree bags - a 2006-vintage Phantom 15 and a Ultralamina 15 from last summer. The phantom with its single zip is easier to drive, and the down is more comfortable and a touch warmer overall. Nothing wrong with the ultralamina though, apart from some really flappy nylon strips along the zippers that will jam the zippers if you don't hold your mouth just right while zipping. Deciding which to use really is a coin toss, with the edge going to the phantom in cooler weather.

By the grace of God, I've managed to keep from getting wet and dying while using the down bag. I've used it for three sheep hunts and three moose hunts, and a couple of wet muley hunts in WA. Having packed in continuous drizzle for many hours on a couple of these hunts, I remain convinced of two things:

1. Gear stays dryer in a floorless tent. Condensation drip or minor leakage in a floored tent will eventually wet out the floor, and this does not happen with floorless (I've not had the opportunity or need to camp on wet tundra or alpine sponge).
2. With todays UL roll-top drybags and DWR treatments on bag shells, you really have to try with effort to get your bag wet. UL roll-top drybags make great pillows, too.

Prior to 2006 I used an REI polar pod 20F. It was colder and about 1.5lbs heavier than either MH bag.

I'm still hanging onto synthetic bags, and almost always choose north face as being the best blend of weight / quality / price. They're a good value.

However, the REALLY oustanding performance of DWR treatments hasn't been lost on me. The material we use on the Mountain Serape will literally hold water suspended above a cup without wetting out for hours at a time. And that's nothing more than a tight weave plus a DWR treatment. I don't know how long it will keep that kind of performance, but it does have me considering down insulation much more seriously than I have in the past.

After being the unfortunate victim of some pretty severe wind storms over the years - whereas expedition quality mountaineering tents literally blew apart and exposed me to some rather wet conditions - I've chosen to stick with synthetics, too.

I have and have had a number of highend bags of both types and I prefer down in REAL cold, as it stays dry.

However, I have survived a close call or two in the BC mountains and I will not go out without a synthetic bag, bivy, tarp and 3/4 pad, any time of year here. If, I am alone, I will ONLY use synthetic bag(s),eVent shells and merino woolen clothing as people die, regularly, within sight of where I am sitting and a 20 min. drive from my urban house.

The last was just two weeks ago and most of these are younger guys, with some experience, but, they NEVER listen to any advice from the staff at the parks around Vancouver.......

Above or away from treeline, I tend to be VERY particular about where I pitch my tent. High saddles or exposed places are to be avoided, unless they afford lots of rock of suitable size for sturdy and substantial windbreak construction. All part of the game.

Precisely. Back in 1971, while on a September Dall sheep hunt in the Chugach Range, I learned real quick everything there is to know about choosing a tent location. That trip was a real learning curve, in that sense. Killed a great ram, though.

Thanks for all of your opinions. As for synthetic bags I am looking at the Mountain Hardwear Ultra lamina 0 or 15, Cats Meow 15 and the ID renaisance.
What are your thoughts. Again, I can't find a site that sells the ID bags.

IDm no question, among the finest serious mountain gear I have ever used.

Call Evan Jones, 403-640-1445 in Calgary, AB, "Mountain Time" and ask him about selling you a bag directly from his "tactical" line.

www.integraltactical.com---DO NOT buy the "ID" branded stuff now made by "Rab", trust me on this.

Tell Evan that Dewey sent you and while he is a blunt guy with no "softsoap" BS about anything, he makes bloody good gear and can either sell direct or tell you which US dealer to get it from.

Hope this helps, I may well buy a Renaissance myself as my wife is eyeing my North Twin combo if she can come camping later this year. A bit more coin than some, but, worth the price in the way that McHale, Mystery Ranch and Hilleberg gear is.

Good choices.

My ramble on the topic in general: For your use in Colorado, the ability of the bag to retain loft (and so warmth) in damp conditions is not as critical. Colorado dries out once in awhile.

The farther west and north of the Cascade Crest you backpack however, the more margin synthetics give you. An important question is how many consecutive nights you plan to sleep in the bag without being able to dry it? Dampness accumulates in unrelieved cold humidity. As was said and said well, it accumulates more in a tent with waterproof floor.

A rule of thumb might be that anywhere dry enough to have mule deer, pine trees or sage should be good for down.

I love down: the feel, drape, warmth, weight and longeivity --- and don't use it at all in coastal backpacking. I have slept in a wet sleeping bag more than once, and when such a bad event happens, I prefer a synthetic.

www.mountaingear.com has a sale going on right now thats not bad. I picked up a Dark Star 0 Synthetic Sleeping Bag. No hassel return.

Hmmm - no mention of wiggys! (Actually there was one, but I'm gathering it was an in-joke?) (And, no - I'm not wiggy, unless he's moved to the UK and taken over my forum name!)

Two - actually four - things have persuaded me to put my money where my mouth is.

1. this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD3wA5Wrcmc
2. Huge amounts of positive references to his kit on the net, even if many don't particularly appreciate his "style" of promoting his bags.
3. his guarantee, which I've never seen any other manufacturer of bags offer or honour - (from his website - WIGGY�S GUARANTEE: Our Guarantee is for a lifetime of use. If a seam opens, the zipper breaks or the Lamilite insulation deteriorates (such as losing its loft or separating, clumping in one place or another), Wiggy�s will repair or replace your bag at no charge to you.)
4. His suggestion that you wash his bags in a machine as often as you like, as this will not only get rid of oils/dirt etc that build up and damage loft, but will restore loft. EVERY other manufacturer I've checked out shies away from this.

Reading back the above, it does look a bit like an advert for wiggys! Maybe I'm trying to convince myself I've made a wise choice:) I'll let you know next year after a trip to Norway in January.

However, the point I was getting at was- am I missing something here? I know he's not universally liked - which may be an understatement - but his bags do seem to be the real deal from virtually everything I've read, and I'm wondering why his bags haven't really come up as a suggestion.

(Nothing like wading into controversy with my first post here!)

Andy,
I have one of Wiggys bags, and moved on because of the weight and bulk. I don't have an "Internet axe to grind" about Wiggy. His best bag is in my basement along with a Kifaru 0 degree Slick bag, and an embarrassingly rich assortment of Western Mountaineering down bags. I much prefer the feel, weight, and performance of down, but Internet chat rooms keep me reaching for the Slick bag when going to Alaska or Canada on sheep trips (two weeks, likely rain daily). Maybe I'll go with a WM Dryloft bag this year in the Yukon?
Don

Well, I experimented with 5 synthetic bags before settling on Wiggys. I like to wash them after a long hunt and they are the warmest bag I tried. The weight it the same as any bag of comparable warmth and the only synthetic bag I found as warm is the northface darkstar which is exactly the same weight. And the wiggys fits in my down bag stuffsack so I dont buy the bulky argument. Of course down is the warmest fill out there. Its just harder to wash and clumps when wet.