Here are some photos from the maiden voyage of goat packing. This was a little Elk scouting trip with some friends. Since this was the maiden trip, we carried most of our gear and really put just token gear on the goats. It was as much about learning how the goats reacted, and how to handle them as it was about anything else. I can say, from just normal walks and having them around our property, that I really like them, they are sort of like a deer size animal, with a dogs desire to follow you around.

I used the Paradox Packs Roll Top with a base Talon. I really liked the base talon for times when I do not need a separate day pack. It was great for a small spotter and tripod plus some other essentials, like a camera.



Hiking in the goats were fine and never far away or needing much attention. They did not like the stream crossings very much. Stream crossings were the main problem area.


Camp setup at 10.5k. We used the BCS 2 Grande setup which was great for 4 and a stove. We didn't run the stove it was not cold enough. We hung a tarp (which was actually half of a BCS 2 for the goats)



We hiked up near tree line and did some spotting for a few hours.


It was also the first run with Uncompahgre Jacket from First Lite, which I really liked. It seemed pretty waterproof. It is probably to much for summer hikes down low, but anything near tree line, or shoulder season and I can certainly see a lot of uses. It basically replaces a rain shell and fleece.


Sometimes the goats were wanting to be a little to near. This was not the only occasion. I'm not sure how to handle this during hunting season.


I'm not sure, maybe tie them up on a bench if you know you are going to be hunting it. I'm really not sure what to do here. Sometimes they just wanted to be a little close.
[img]http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3739/9560747572_466bee9b99.jpg[/img]

We had a nice fire that night, the goats were fine and enjoyed being near the fire.
[img]http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2883/9560747514_e763db9792.jpg[/img]

During the night, we heard some Elk an estimated 50 yards away. In the morning we found fresh sign approx. 50 yards away in the meadow.

The next day we did some more scouting before heading out. On the way out we gave them more gear to carry. Overall , it was a very good first trip. For those that hunt with goats, what do you do if they want to be close all the time ?
Kevin

Cool trip, you'll just have to stake them down if they want attention. Seems like good bottle-fed goats, which make for good packers, but yeah, they can be a little nosy sometimes. If they are really attached to people staying in sight of them will help keep the noise down. Definitely don't stake one down out of sight of at least another goat.

Are these your goats? They seem pretty small and lightly built for rentals.

I always figured if you were going to use pack animals and hunt you'd need a cook/wrangler/camp sitter.

They are our goats. We got them a few weeks ago. I had just taken them on a few walks, but never an overnight. Yes they are bottle-fed 3 yr olds. They were really well behaved, just a little too close at times. My friend used one as a back rest when he was behind the spotter for about 20 minutes.

They were fine handling any of the terrain, and didn't get weird with test shots. Just a bit nosy at times, especially if you were sitting for a while.

Get a spray bottle for the goats that get a little to personal. They hate being sprayed with water.
On the stream crossings, get a kiddy pool or a 8x10 blue tarp and build a "tub" with 2x6s and just start working with them in the back yard.

As far as them being close all the time, sometimes its a pain in the rear, but its kinda just the way they are.
I have high-lined them in camp and just leave them for the day, but if you have a noisy one that misses you, it can be a headache.

Is this the 'puffy', insulated one? If so, would you consider it for a all-day, every-day type of jacket?

I love it!

For some reason, setting up a tarp for the goats just got me tickled pink... "got a a goat tarp?"

I guess I just found a purpose for my wife's dairy goats... I've got a weather that's about 3 months old at the casa right now. Maybe I need to start training him up

This is great! You would hear my goats for miles if you high lined them at camp.

Congrats on getting your boys out. Fun to see others getting involved.

Here is a photo of us in the Winds of Wyoming this summer.

I like your leads goats "stickers" Is he a big saanen?

6 year old Saanen/Alpine. The one next to him is my big Saanen/Alpine/Boer...240lbs worth. They each carry anywhere from 40 to 60 lbs, depending on where we go.

My daughter and I on a hike with the goats.

Looks like you guys are having pretty good success packing goats. I tried packing lama's once. Friend of mine was raising them. I was in the outfitting business and thought they could have promise for hunting afoot in rough country. They might, but once was enough. I had an older one whose bones would be compost by now if he had been mine. Another young but mature one that was good to pack about 25 lbs, but wanted to stop and lay down every few hundred yards, and two young ones that had never been saddled. These two were the most promising, but after that trip I stuck with my mules and horses.

Looks like a nice groups you guys have.

@ cobrad - Our experience has not been positive with Llamas. Three of them got spooked when they saw our goats and their owner (with an open umbrella) about a hundred yards off, they (Llamas) turned and ran off...didn't stop for 14 miles. I know some folks love them, but we have had bad experiences with them.

I have owned packgoats for 7 years and use them every summer in rugged conditions. My first two were worthless (from a dairy breeder), but my current six, from a reputable packgoat breeder in Oregon, have been priceless. Mine carry anywhere from 40 to 60 lbs each, depending on the terrain.

This is really awesome!

Furry little slaves to carry schitt

Great thread and pics!

Tell us about your corral set-up please. What you using for shed, fencing, etc.? What do you estimate your monthly cost is for feed, Vet, etc.? How often do you have to exercise the goats and for how long?

Thanks,

Jordan

Cool Pics. That goat close-up looks a little like Pelosi.

For us...I have a 40 X 60 ft pen. I use 5 ft high horse fencing (4" squares) that are 16 ft long panels. And reinforce them with steel T posts. For shelter, I use calf hutches that I can move around. I built feeders that are covered with a tin roof so they can eat and stay dry when it's raining. I feed one small bale per day for 9 goats, feed twice per day. $5.00 per day. Vet bills are minimal as I worm my goats and give them CDT shots every spring. I usually hike them once a week. I also have a LGD dog in the pen to protect them from predators.

I bet he smells better than Pelosi. :-)

Thanks Vigilguy. You related to the Vigil boys that play football for USU? Couldn't help but wonder.

How do you keep those goats from jumping over a 5' fence. Seems a little low to keep 'em in. You got 'em trained or what?

No relation. I am a Wyoming native and graduated from the University of Wyoming.

I have never ever had any of my goats jump the fence. Not sure why, but I can only speculate. I feed them very well, and take good care of them, so I can only assume that they feel that the grass ain't greener on the other side.

Thanks for the info. Do you have to clean those pens at all---even after a few years? Do you bed the hutches with straw? I am seriously thinking of buying a couple pack goats, but I got to go low-dollar.

Thanks,

Jordan

ABSOLUTELY! it is best to clean them out every year to minimize worms and coccidiosis. I just had my neighbor come over with his skid loader and he took out several loads of manure.

I bed the hutches with straw in the winter time to help them stay warm. Not necessary in the summer.

www.packgoatforum.com is a good forum to check out for answers as well.

The other thing is, I'm not sure I am ready to give it the time it requires. Looks to me like a guy really has to take it seriously (exercise the goats, bond with them, docter them, feed them, keep their Tac in good repair, etc.). Just not sure I am that motivated yet.

Jordan

Kind of a rare photo, taken by my hiking partner.

Sometimes I get the question,"Will bears eat goats?" Maybe, but I have never witnessed that nor have I ever heard of it happening with either black or grizzly bears. We put bells on their collars, hoping that will help associate them with humans. My good friend, John Mionczynski, who started the goat packing movement back in 1973, swears that he guided goat packing trips in the Absaroka/Beartooths for over ten years...they'd discovered grizzly tracks around their base camp in the mornings, but never had an incident where bears attacked the pack goats.

You are correct. It takes some time and some money to care for them. But I find it rewarding to get them out in rugged terrain, in boulder fields, where they are in their element. Working Pack goats have a strong desire to serve their human master. At my age, it is really nice just to have a daypack, and have them carry my float tube, fly fishing gear, chairs, cook shelter, etc.

Vigilguy:

How many goats would you recommend for a novice who just wants to be able to pack in on high mountain mule deer hunts and such? I was thinking two would be plenty.

Would you recommend a guy find some three year old wethers ready to go, or start with some young'uns?

Yep. Two is plenty. Decent adult packers can carry 40 lbs each.

If I were to start again, I'd find two adult wethers to use. Look for the ones where the owners are moving and are forced to sell their stock. Otherwise, you stand a chance of getting ones that are "culled" from the herd. Always exceptions of course.

Goats are incredibly smart and trail-wise. They will spot wildlife a lot sooner than I do.

Babies will be more bonded to you if you bottle feed them. But you can still have success with adults, but ya better high line them at night!

What happens if you don't high line 'em. They go for a walk about?

If you buy adult wethers that you have not bottle raised, there is a slight chance that they could browse away from camp, quite always. Mine have never done that, but it could happen if you obtain adults that you didn't raise as babies. The more time you spend with them, the more attached they become to you. And how you treat them.

Sounds a lot like raising kids..........

Vigil guy, lets say a feller has three goats---adult whethers. How much time per week is required to take good care of them (feed, water, pet 'em, read to em, tuck 'em in at night do their hair, clip their toe-nails, etc.)?

Trying to figure out if I have the time (and the desire). The whole idea of having a critter do the heavy lifting really appeals to me though.

Thanks,


Jordan

I would think that if you have to ask the question you really don't have the time. Like anything else in livestock you get out what you put into it.

Wildone:

I grew up on a dairy farm and did not pursue that career path for good reason! The goat thing does make me a little nervous.

Hmmmm...the least amount of time for three wethers, I would say...no less than a half hour per day during the week and a couple of hours on Saturday. Make sure that they have FRESH water in their buckets. They need it to prevent UC, and they won't drink it if it is dirty and /or its been pooped in. I feed mine in the morning and at night. Take five minutes to scratch them. Every three or four months I trim their hooves. Worm them twice a year and give them CDT shots twice a year. Saturdays, I'll take them out for a short hike. They get rusty with their trail manners. A squirt bottle full of water keeps them in line.

Carolyn Eddy has written some good books on caring for wethers. John Mionczynski's book is priceless as well.

To me, they are pretty low maintenance at home and on the trail. Much less than what I hear about horses. And goats won't kill you or injure you on the trail and they don't spook as easily.

Vigilguy:

I am seriously considering doing this. I talked to my wife about it tonight and she is intrigued. I need to cogitate on it for a week or so to make sure its not just a passing fancy.

Thank you for all the information.

Jordan

You are welcome. There are a lot of good resources out there that I can point you to.

I just muddle along, but there are lots of folks out there that know about this so much more than I do.

Here's my first goat trip. No luck but a fun solo hunt with my two buddies carrying the load.

leaves changing on drive in:


moose at trailhead:


Headed up:




Camp:


Headed out:
[img]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c319/conrad101st/IMG_2200_zpse4ac6c97.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c319/conrad101st/IMG_2201_zpsa0a2de07.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c319/conrad101st/IMG_2197_zps573c1b2b.jpg[/img]

Conrad, that is awesome. What can you tell us about your goat raising set-up? How many goats? How big is your corrall? Where did you get your goats (did you raise or buy them weaned)? How do you transport?

Thanks,


Jordan

Jordan:

I borrowed them from my hunting buddy. He was supposed to go but got stuck working but he let me take them. They took to me almost immediately and followed my like puppy dogs. They want to be right with you like your shadow.

My friends keeps them in a 5 acre paddock with his pack horse. They were bottle fed by the original owner but were purchased just last yea by my friend. Think they are about 4 or 5 years old.

It was great b/c the saddle packs literally take 30 seconds to clip on and your off. I left the ropes on and just wrapped them around the frame. When I got to a spot to glass, I would tether them to a tree behind but where they could still see me. No problem at all. They ate and laid there chewing grass like they were enjoying the outing. They are just amazing, they go wherever you can go - across scree, deadfall, dark timber, rocky outcroppings, steep slopes, etc.

In 5 days, they never drank water even though I was around several streams. They ate everything we came across - pine needles, weeds, grass, some snow, etc. I took no feed. I tied them to a tree by camp every night and gave them a good rubdown to make sure they were dry.

We have a ranch in Oklahoma. Think ill buy four. I'm a believer. They are food whores though, the big one was all over me if I had a granola bar opened.

I honestly think two goats could get a boned out elk off the mountain, if you hump your own gear and the rack out. Having them hump your gear up the mountain and to move camp saves your legs. All I carried was my empty ruck, rifle & binos. While we hunted, they carried the game bags, butcher kit, water bottles.

Complete game changer.

Thanks Conrad. Excellent. Thanks very much.

Jordan

Kevin, Actionshooter, Conrad...

Very interesting indeed, and I really appreciate the great photos too!

Having load-bearing critters that want to be with you and follow like puppy dogs sounds like a lot of fun!

Are the goats calm all the time, or are they sometimes spooked by something like a piece of paper blown by the wind? This happened to me on a horse once -- hence my question!

John

Vegetarian dogs. I had three a few years back. My buddy has two now. They are the true solution for backpacking companions.

They only seemed to get upset momentarily if separated and would bleat a little.
I never saw them get spooked. I wasn't too worried about predators munching on them as they were within earshot at all times and had my trusty sako ready to defend hoof and pack.

If you've read the Snubbie & Rock Chuck thread, you know that my choice was llamas. Both animals work great but they're different. It depends on your situation and personal preference. Since I have the llamas and raise meat goats, I know a bit about both.

Either one takes 4 years to grow to maturity. Overloading them while too young can damage leg tendons beyond repair so patience is a virtue. I have a 3 yo llama that's been on every trip I've taken since he was 6 months old. The 1st year he was a tag along, carrying nothing. The 2d year he carried an empty saddle. This year, he can handle 30 lb. He'll be mature next year and his load will depend on how much he grows this next year. Conditioning is ESSENTIAL with either animal. Plan on numerous long hikes with increasingly heavy loads before you can get the work from them. I load the panniers with water jugs and keep adding jugs as they get in shape. Throw a couple gallons of water in your own day pack while you're at it. It'll pay off later. I should know! As hunting season approaches, I try to get them out twice a week for a hike in steep country. I'm retired now and have the time to do that but it was a struggle in past years.

Goats are easier to handle on the trail because you can just let them run loose. If you try that with a llama, you might find him waiting at the trailhead.

The biggest advantage of a llama is that a big one can carry 80lb or more. A llama can carry both haunches off a medium sized elk with the long bones still in.

IMPORTANT: always carry a small hanging scale large enough to weight a fully loaded pannier. Don't overload the animals and be sure to balance the panniers from side to side. An off balance load is harder on their backs than an overload.

Either animal will eat almost anything so you don't have to carry feed. Llamas can take much more cold than goats so they don't need shelter, but they do have to be staked out in some manner. Llamas are sort of aloof and can be very hard to catch if they don't want to be caught. While packing, I use a 100' rope laid out on the ground with O-rings at intervals for tie rings. While hunting from the truck, I keep them in this portable electric corral with a battery operated fence charger. If they eat down everything in it, I can move it in about 30 min. This photo shows 2 wires around it. I had to add a 3d lower one to keep them from belly crawling under it. If you need to confine goats, an electric net would be preferable and easier to set up and move if needed.

One of the above posts mentioned training for water crossings. Llamas can be a real problem that way as well as goats. I had to do some hard core work to get them to even step over a small creek. Now they go right into belly deep...clear water. They have a sense of self preservation. If the water's muddy and they can't see the bottom, they don't want to step in it. If a llama doesn't want to go in, it takes a winch to move him. If you can get the leader to step in, usually the rest will follow.
Llamas have a bad habit of jumping small creeks and logs. Jumping is big time BAD. It can throw off a pannier and when they hit the end of the lead rope on the trailing llama, they'll jerk him and possibly break the rope or saddle tie ring. It's very difficult to break them of jumping. When I come to a jumpable creek or log, I stop and let them bunch up then SLOWLY lead them over. I also use extra long lead ropes. Then if one jumps, the following animal has some slack to hopefully not get jerked.

Good thread you guys

Not going to pretend to know anywhere near as much as Vigilguy, but growing up we always had a few goats around. My opinion, goats get a bad rep.

We had probably a 20x30 pen at night and a few acres fenced off for them during the day, but often times they ran loose. Never were on the cars and didn't bother anything around the house.

They'd run up onto the deck if one of the dogs chased them.

I had a few more later on in my teens, don't ever remember thinking of them as work to have around. They'd just follow us as we did the other chores, mainly horse related.

Goats are natural climbers. If you had them running loose and they didn't get up on cars, that's very unusual. They love high places and a car roof is a goat magnet.
They're very sociable. We keep ours fenced in but I can't do anything in the pasture without the whole bunch being right there to supervise.

I got a real laugh last summer when I was in a pasture working on a sprinkler. We had the llamas, a few goats, and my wife's geese all in the same pasture. She came out to talk to me and as she walked, the goats were right behind her, followed by 4 geese, followed by 4 llamas. She was leading a great farm parade. It was hilarious.

Mine are pretty calm. If they do get spooked on the trail or in camp, it's not a major life threatening moment. They huddle really close, around me. I have known other pack animals to take off and head back to the trailhead. My goats would never do that. Rental goats might though.