Was listenin to an ad on the radio that said there was a portable oxygen concentrator that was the size of a coke can and weighed a pound.

Thinkin that the weight would be worth it hikin at 7-10,000 feet.

Save this flatlander a day of gettin acclimated, and could cover more ground with more O2.

Could this work?

Dunno...


At 10,000 ft I usually tell people to breathe really deep and heavy so's I can hear them.


Acclimitization IS worth every hour you invest to it.

MIght be a short-term fix, but as far as acclimatization wouldn't it be counterproductive? My understanding is that your body makes more red blood cells in response to air with fewer O2 molecules per lungful. So if you add O2 it would interfere with acclimatization, right?

I think you're better off acclimating if you have an issue with altitude. If you really do "need" canister o2, I'd say staying out of altitude would be the wiser move. I seriously doubt a 1lb unit advertised on radio isn't going to get the job done.

Smokey:

It takes a couple of weeks for an increase in red blood corpuscles to be detectable and over a month to aproximate maximum acclimatization. However acclimatization occurs in a logarythmic curve. So it never really stops getting better. One problem with hyper-aclimatization is that the increased red blood cell content makes the blood prone to clotting (edema). When this occurs in the lungs or brain it can be life threatening. In the legs or arms it can be painful and debilitating.

Employing the "rest step" is the best way for a flatlander to achieve short term high performance at altitude.

KC

Fubarski:

10,000' is not high altitude for the Rockies. During the early seasons you can expect to find elk and deer at or near timberline. That's about +/-11,400' in Colorado and a little lower in Wyoming and Montana.

I don't know if an oxegen concentrator would be useful. Depends on battery time I guess. Smokepole makes a good point in that it might be counterproductive but you probably won't be there long enough for it to matter. .

Employing the "rest step" is the best way for a flatlander to achieve short term performance at altitude.

KC

ALTITUDE SICKNESS: The two most serious types of altitude sickness are HAPE (High Altitude Pulmonary Edema) and HACE (High Altitude Cerebral Edema). HAPE is fluid in the lungs and you can self-diagnose it when you feel gurgling in your lungs or pain in the chest. If your breath is condensing and your friends aren't condensing, then you may have fluid in your lungs. HACE is fluid on the brain. You can self-diagnose it when you get dizzy and stay dizzy for more than a minute or so. If one of your hunting partners goes unconscious or doesn't wake up in the morning, you need to transport him to lower elevation immediately to save his life. The only effective field remedy for HAPE and HACE requires an item called a Gamow Bag and you won't have one. So DESCEND! DESCEND! DESCEND! Get to lower elevation immediately if you want to live. Fortunately HAPE and HACE are both rare (but not unheard of) below 10,000' elevation.

The most common type and the least severe is AMS (Acute Mountain Sickness). It's often associated with dehydration. Its' symptoms are similar to those of influenza and they may include mild headache, nausea, vomiting, lassitude, loss of appetite, and periodic breathing (waking up gasping for air). Common Aspirin and Tums can help because they coincidentally contains the just the kind of ingredients that your body needs and it is a mild astringent that reduces the effects of dehydration. Diamox is the brand name of a prescription drug that works for some people. Start taking it a couple of days before you begin to ascend. But it doesn't work for everyone and there are some potentially miserable side effects. In most cases, if you rest for a couple of days, drink lots of liquids, and take Aspirin and Tums, AMS will subside and you can start enjoying yourself.

The best way to avoid altitude sickness is to ascend slowly, at the rate of 1,000' per day. But often you don't have that much time. So get in good shape now. Good shape means strong heart and lungs. Good exercises include running stairs, swimming, bicycling, or any other kind of exercise that works the heart and lungs. However sometimes even the best athletes can get altitude sickness, so don't count on that being the cure all. Get to high elevation a few days early and just lounge around for a few days before you start exerting yourself. Stay hydrated, avoid alcohol and coffee or any other kind of diuretic. Take one Aspirin and one Tums each day. Be alert to the symptoms mentioned and react appropriately if they occur.

Also try to develop a technique called Alpinisti Breathing (pressure breathing). Essentially you consciously make your lungs inhale and exhale before you feel the need to breather heavy, you generate a rhythm between your body effort and your lungs so that you have air before you need it. If you wait until you need the air then it’s too late and you are always out of breath. It’s sometimes called the Rest Step (step-breathe-pause-breathe, step-breathe-pause-breathe, repeat, etc.)

Not according to everythig I've read, and my personal experience. It starts within a few days.

Not sure what your point is but 10K is plenty of altitude for people who live near sea level to both feel the effects of less O2 per volume of air and even to get altitude sickness.

You bet. I once hosted a hunter from Louisiana. I told him to get in shape. He didn't and he came down with pulmonary edema the first night in camp. We were camped at 9,400' and he never got to hunt.

My point is Fubarski might be hunting higher than he thinks and he better get in shape.

The time it takes for pulmonary acclimatization to get started and the time it takes for marrow to grow more red blood cells are two different things.

Joe:

Good advice. Climbers refer to that technique as the rest step.

KC

Thanks for the replies.

I shoulda been more specific in my OP.

There's no problems with altitude sickness, or staying at altitude. Once I get to my spot, I'm fine, and acourse, comin down isn't a problem.

What I'm trying to do is gain a day up there.

Usually, I like to take a day hike the day before leavin on a backpack trip, to get the altitude in or out, whichever.

There's no problem with a daypack.

But hittin the trail, with a backpack loaded for a week, slows me down, and my stop is about 12 miles, climbin from 7-10,000 feet, a place I can reach in one day if I was acclimated, but just can't hit the first day out.

So, I'm wondering whether the extra O2 from the concentrator would give me the extra I need to be able to roll up to the trailhead, and hit the base camp the first day. Kinda like a turbocharger.

Would only need it when carryin that initial load, and if it could work the 1 pound wouldn't make a difference.

Also seems like it could help packin an animal out, if I ever need to.

KC...am a climber and we don't call breathing deep while climbing a "rest step". We call it: getting more oxygen for the task.

A rest step is the actual motion of slowly moving forward, pausing and giving the muscles a short period of time to regulate the lactase in the cells allowing the bones to support more of your weight conserving energy.

Breathing at altitude or sports for that matter is about having a better blood oxygen concentration. Better physical conditioning AND acclimitization are the most important. Individual physiology and capacity are secondary, but also important. Some people adapt better than others in mountain enviroments even if they are not as good of "shape".

Acclimitization "begins" in the matter of hours. Frequent trips to altitude gives your body the cues to acclimitize more quickly than most of those that get out of their vehicle at 6 or 7,000' from starting out at sea level once a year or so.

Is Acetazolamide used by climbers living at low altitudes and traveling to climb?

I'm talking about the latter, and again according to everything I've read, it doesn't take long to get started.

It CAN be used, but there is the possibility of unwanted side effects.

I wouldn't use it unless involved in an *emergency* rescue or military operation where the operator had to be transported by aircraft to a high altitude location from a low elevation.

Train and condition for altitude. Better off lightening your pack if possible and/or one's belly fat than packing oxygen.

If possible, sleep at a highest elevation feasible before the next day's travel to higher altitude.

Stay well-hydrated (without alcohol).

All good advice, but I'm tryin ta cheat, here.

Buy my way to an extra day above treeline.

Can supplemental oxygen, supplied by a 1 pound device, help me cover more ground climbin from 7-10k feet, under load?

I'm a cheap bastard, but if the $ is right, I'll probably just buy one, to see what happens next summer.

My answer is NO. You will have to pay the price sooner or later, IMHO its better to pay it early and get better every day, rather than some O2 thing, and you still will have to catch up so to speak at some point.

Just an opinion and certainly not worth more than 1 cent max.

Thanks Joe

Fubarski, seems like an O2 generator would be useful where you have a continuous need for O2. But for one-time use like you're saying, seems that bottled O2 would be the way to go. Just the weight of the bottle and O2, nothing extra.

Have you looked around for that?

Just got back from a hike up Kilimanjaro at 19,341 feet AMSL.

Go slow on the ascent and climb high but sleep low worked for us.

Climb high and sleep low has worked for Himalayan climbers since the 1950s.

Climbing at 10,000ft, Kilimanjaro climbing and Himalayan climbing are three different scenarios.

Climbing at 10,000ft, Kilimanjaro climbing and Himalayan climbing are three different scenarios.

Just my opinion based off of a lot of climbing, hiking, and hunting in the mountains. You are wasting your money, pack space, and adding unnecessary weight. If you have problems functioning at 10K you really need to be working on your fitness.

Well said.

Here's an existing product that seems to be the same concept, delivered in a different way:

https://www.oxygenplus.com/collections/skinni/products/3-pack-o-skinni-natural

I was thinkin a concentrator could do the same thing, without bein disposable.

Just an add on to consider. bottle or concentrator is heavy. I am on oxy 24/7. Batteries for those last about 1 hour, and the units are around 20 lbs. To rent or buy legally you need a prescription. You can get one on the black market, generally used and abused. So there is the downside.

Exercise and get up there a few days earlier, forget the playing around with oxygen carriers. You can get too much and it can really screw you up.

So, we'll put you down for "both"

There aren't any problems functioning anywhere.

I'm trying to find a way to put the hikin in, while acclimatizing, part easier.

Like the oxygen masks they have at football games. Player gets gassed, hits the O2 on the sideline, ready ta go.

Was thinkin of tryin ta lose weight, but I didn't wanna get caught up in onea those "eat less and exercise" scams.

Not too many people have climbed more high peaks in North America than KC, listen to him.

In the Pacific Northwest, many of us are more impressed with Colorado ice climbers than we are with Colorado "North American high peak climbers".

So, now that you've introduced us to KC, Peakbagger... have KC fill us in on the details. Some of us love route details, especially of remote Alaskan, Canadian and Washington State peaks. Colorado peaks...not so much.

Is it really necessary to be so snarky?

I can't speak for the sheriff, but for me it is. Ii's really tough not to be when you're an expert on virtually every subject.

Unlike smokespoles...whom is deliberately stupid...again.


Feel free to howl at the sky...you seem to be good at it.

.

When I went backpacking with KC we talked about those peaks. They include all the high ones in North America, Mckinley, Robson, and the Pacific Northwest. You have stepped on your dick.

Oooohhh...backpacker...tough guy! You couldn't follow me for three miles, fatboy. Betting you rarely separate yourself from your pickup more than 200 yards.

You got to have one to be ABLE to step on it. You probably made a good girl scout, though.

Wade’s World.

I'm not familiar with the term "snarky" but I'm guessing it means "assh*le??"

That's pretty close...

Funny, we have a fraternity of world class climbers here... you just don't find them engaged in dick-stretching contests.

Those that have BTDT seem to have the most humility...

Uh huh...get your dentures in, your rainbow headband on and your socks and sandals on and come out cackling from the henhouse..."fraternity of world class climbers"...PFFFT!

Recommended reading...

Wrongside, needy paragon of Fakebook, tell us more of the great finds you discover on your boyfriend's laptop.

Yup, that's me, aging hippie.

I could mention the names, but won't degrade them in a conversation like this.

Suffice to say, anyone in the alpine climbing world, any where in the world, will know the names. Your name, not so much...

Joe:

I'm getting kind of long in the tooth and my climbing days are in the past, but I might have climbed something that you are interested in climbing. I would be happy to provide info.

Yes in Colorado bagging peaks is the thing and most Colorado climbers get started that way. Me too. I have climbed 130 peaks in North America: all of the Colorado fourteeners and many other CO peaks (you say you're not inteterested in CO). But I didn't quit when I completed the Colorado fourteeners. I also climbed the big three on the Westcoast (I assume that you've already done those), the Mexican Volcanos, McKinley three times before Obama renamed it including the south Buttress.

I've done some ice climbing including the Arnold-Michael route on the Crestone Needle, the Black Ice Coulouir on the North Face of the Grand Teton, Liberty Ridge on Rainier, and several of the Canadian Rockies including Mount Robson. Mount Assiniboine is really dramatic. The Ouray Ice Park is lots of fun although none of the clmbs are more than half a pitch.

KC

PS: I always wanted to do some climbing in the Wrangle-Saint Elais Wilderness. But McCarthy was as close as I got.

So true, as is the opposite.

You've got him pegged

Congrats on the Liberty Ridge route. We did Curtis Ridge and the next year East Willis Wall to Curtis Ridge.

A few:

Multiple ascents of all the Cascade volcanoes, from all the cardinal approaches. They all have Indian names, too.

Half the peaks in the Northern and Southern Pickets.

Goode Peak. Forbidden Peak. Mount Logan. Mount Index.

Multiples of Mount Shuksan, Mount Stuart, Dragontail Peak, Prusik Peak and a few others I've forgotten...oh wait...Colchuck Peak. American Border Peak.

Hats off for the McKinley/Denali climbs.

I don't travel to Canada, anymore, but I do keep the occasional eye on them.



We considered Jeff Lowe who spent much time in Colorado as the deacon of alpine style and regret his passing.

Joe:

Not being from the west coast, many of the places/routes that you mention are not familiar to me. Are there any easy peaks in the Northern Cascades? I remember looking east from near the top of Liberty Ridge and thinking that there was nothing easy over there.

Are you still climbing? There was a time when I was leading 5.10 pretty reliably and pushing 5.11. But now I've worn out my body and have multiple health issues to show for decades of wear and tear and abuse. Now I'm just a has been who relives his adventures buy telling stories.

One of my neighbors owns a second home in Estes Park. He invited us up for a weekend. While there he mentioned that Thomas Hornbein was a neighbor. He invited him over to talk to me. He spent almost four hours talking about his first ascent of the West Ridge of Everest, and many other climbs. He also talked about all the famous climbers of that era; the Lowe brothers, Rienhold Messner, Jim Wickwire, and more that I can't recall right now. What a gentleman he was.

Once I met Fred Becky in the climbers hut at Talkeetna and I prevailed upon him to autograph my daypack with a magic Marker. I still have that pack.

KC

Fubarski:

Sorry for high jacking your post.

KC

5.10 is very creditable. You got to be pretty skinny and relatively short to do anything past that.

Never cared much for rock routes, but you get into it on mixed routes out here. Am sure you know what it's like to edge with crampons and dry tool!

Do any waterfalls in Colorado? We have to really bust ass to find good water ice in this region. Love the green alpine ice, though...like cork! Don't know that I can trust rehabbed rotators anymore, though for anything past a couple of ice pitches without exchanging leads.

Did Shuksan and Baker a month ago on a 3 day vacation.

If you still got your legs, Hannegan Peak gives you a 360 deg view. Ruth mountain is pretty easy. Hidden Lake Peak. Cutthroat Peak. Lots of 'em. Lots of bears.

Most of the approaches are brutal to many of the more "remote" peaks. Seems like as soon as guys get any money...they start RVing and give up anything requiring "effort".

Frequently stuck in an alien enviroment in the SW at the moment.

Fred Beckey...old school badass. Very few Fred Beckeys left in the world. He put up many of the routes in the North Cascades.

If you're really serious then buy an oxygen tent to sleep in at home. You can simulate high altitude while you sleep. I don't think they are cheap or help your love life.

Just sleep with your sheet wrapped around your head 😜

Never a problem.

Way I see it, *everything* posted is interesting, in its own way.

Only a few climbs in CO require edging with dry tools and crampons and then only a few steps. One exception is the west face of Crestone Peak. I climbed the India Route on the east face of the peak and the descent requires one to traverse a ledge about 4" wide and forty feet long across the face of a thousand foot vertical wall. Really raises the pucker factor. I suspect that west coast climbers commonly encounter similar situations.

Lots of waterfalls though. The north face of Mount Lincoln is the best and I already mentioned the Ice Park in Ouray. But there are many other smaller isolated waterfalls that freeze in winter. A popular one is the Rigid Designator also located east of vail. It's an hourglass shape and one has to climb the upper half while leaning back on your tools. It really requires a lot of arm strength. I climbed it by tieing my picks into my climbing harness and resting.

The best ice that I have ever seen is on the northeast face of the Grand Teton. It's all alpine ice, not water ice, and it sucks your tools in like a magnet. It's layed back about 10° so one can lean into the face. It's really an aesthetic climb about 1,000 feet from Valhalla Canyon to the base of ther Black Ice Couloiur.

I wrote this article and it was published in Trail & Timberline, the journal of the Colorado Mountain Club.

KC

Dead Man's Steel

I have never considered myself to be superstitious. But several years ago I was confronted with a feeling that made me think twice about that.

A friend and I planned to climb the ice falls in Officers Gulch, East of Vail. We had heard on the news, that on Wednesday someone had died while climbing in that area.

We hiked in on Saturday and began hiking up the debris fan at the bottom of the gully. It was covered in fresh snow and half way up the fan we saw where someone had been digging in the snow. When we looked into the hole, we saw a climbing rope. Apparently someone had been hit by an avalanche while climbing and this is where they came to a stop. We figured that this was the remnants of the climbing accident that had claimed a life earlier in the week. Seeing that rope in the bottom of the hole and realizing how it came to be there was a sobering start to the climb, for both of us.

I lead the first pitch, which was uneventful until I nearly reached the top and peered over the rim. There in front of me was and ice axe and an ice screw stuck in the ice. We surmised that the previous climber had just about reached the top and was placing his protection before attempting to climb over the rim, when he got hit by the avalanche.

I finished the pitch and set the belay right next to the axe and screw, then my buddy climbed up after me. My friend collected both pieces of gear and we climbed the final pitch, then rapelled down.

There's a common joke within the climbing community. It says "Climb Safely. If you die, we split your gear." When we reached the bottom, my climbing partner asked me which piece of gear I wanted. I thought about and said that I didn't want either. It just didn't feel right.

In the Navy there's a superstition that it's bad luck to possess anything made of steel that was owned by a man who has died. I never gave it much thought until I was confronted with the choice.

KC

Interesting article.

I study avalanches, but not a certified forecaster...yet. Your snow conditions are very different than ours. In many cases, more dangerous.

Many, if not most are oblivious or discount the hazard.

You'd be amazed how frequently military personnel lose their weapons and equipment in snow operations.



Our saying is that: "If I'm tied in to you...YOU better not fall!

...if I fall...YOU better arrest mine!"

We only rope up on glaciers, running belays on higher angled slopes or anchored high angle belayed leads.

A deceased climbing buddy's wife gave me his crampons and some chocks and stoppers. I retired the protection and glad the crampons don't fit my boots, so I think am good.

One time myself and three other climbers were traversing horizontally across a snow field. We started out bushwacking our way through some willows until we came to a wide open space. The first guy to step out onto the opening triggered a big crack that split the face of the snow. We all knew that it was a slab avalanche ready to break loose and we decided that the willows weren't so bad after all.

We rope up for rock climbs and mixed rock/ice climbs of course. We were roped up 99% of the time on McKinley. Twice while not climbing guys fell into crevasses that had no bottom that we could see. Fortunately the cracks were narrow enough that the guy was able to span the crack with his arms and the rest of us pulled them to safety.

Here's another article that you might find interesting. I wrote it twenty-five years ago and it too was published in Trail & Timberline.

HAIL ON HALLET'S

The Northcut Carter Route on Hallet Peak, Grade III, 5.7, is one of the most popular routes for technical climbers in Rocky Mountain National Park. The eight hundred feet high north wall is climbed with seven pitches of sustained 5.5 and 5.6 climbing, on solid rock. This kind of climbing is a pure delight to the technically minded climber. The crux is on the fifth pitch where the route skirts an overhang, to its’ right. We had turned back on Saturday because the weather looked bad and the weather forecast for the next day was good.

R.J. Campbell and I left the Bear Lake parking lot on Sunday, with a promise of sunrise on the eastern horizon. We hiked the trail to Emerald Lake and negotiated the talus field in two hours and were at the base of the wall at 7:00 A.M. There was a clear blue sky. Not a cloud in sight. We started up the wall exchanging leads and leap frogging past each other. This was really delightful. We were cruising the solid rock and enjoying the sustained middle fifth class climbing. I lead the fifth pitch and must have gotten off route because I ran out of rope before I reached the next belay ledge. I called down to R.J. that we had to climb simultaneously for about 20 feet.

The thunder storm must have been lurking behind the wall, growing and preparing its' surprise attack. At about 10:30, in ten minutes the sky deteriorated from solid blue to thick black clouds. The clouds opened up and dumped hail and rain on us and the wall. We tied into the rock to wait out the deluge. The downpour continued and neither of us was in a position to put on our parkas and we were getting soaked to the core. After half an hour there was a lull in the rain and I belayed R.J. up to a small ledge below me. Then I continued up to the intended belay ledge and belayed him behind me.

We were in big trouble. The rain and hail began again and by this time the whole wall was covered with a thin layer of water. All of the ledges were covered with hail and the lichens were greasy wet. In these conditions rappelling down was too risky. Climbing up was nearly impossible because the rock was too slippery and our climbing shoes were nearly useless. We put on our parkas over soaked clothes and began to shiver, while an inch of water drained down onto our feet. If we stayed there too long we would be hypothermic. We huddled together for warmth, for another hour, waiting for the rain to stop. Both of us were shivering continuously.

The rain lessened to a faint drizzle and we waited for the face to dry a little before starting up. It was R.J.'s turn to lead and he started up. He climbed up a thin crack putting in several pieces of protection, then moved onto the face. "Oh no. Falling!" I waited for the jerk on the rope. I waited. Thump. I heard something hit the wall above me then bang, the tension hit the rope. That must have been a real long fall for such a long wait. R.J. was hanging upside down just five feet above me. He had taken a forty feet leader fall. At first I thought that he was unconscious but then he said "where am I?" I lowered him down to the ledge. He was in sever pain and thought that his hip was broken. We had no choice. We had to get off of the wall or die from hypothermia. We couldn't expect a rescue until the next morning at least and we both knew that we couldn't last the night. R.J. said that he could belay me so I started up the wall, aiding every difficult move. I was pulling myself up on my arms because the slippery rock wouldn't hold my shoes.

The last two pitches turned into three of the worst that I have experienced in twenty years of climbing. At times my hands were so cold that I couldn't feel the rock. I could see my hand on a hold but I couldn't feel it. I took two leader falls and on one I hit a dihedral with my elbow and thought that it was broken. But the pain subsided and I continued. I belayed R.J. up behind me and every time that he pushed on his left leg, pain streaked through his body like lightning. We made the top of the escarpment and laid down on the coiled rope and our packs, to get some rest. But it was too cold to sleep. With R.J. Leaning on my shoulder and hobbling on one leg, we descended the scree gully at 8:30 P.M.

The last two pitches, which should have taken an hour and a half, had taken over nine hours. This trip had turned from an enjoyable climb into a desperate nightmare in just a few minutes and we never saw it coming. I suppose the moral of this story is to be prepared. The worst can happen at any time and without warning.

Most of my ice climbing has been back East. Mainly Lake Willoughby. I have climbed a few routes at Hyalite Canyon in Bozeman, and a few routes in the Bitterroots. Would love to make it to Ouray someday soon. As I would love to climb in Canmore probably more than anywhere else.

Bagging peaks is fun. I have a list somewhere with a whole bunch of them highlighted meaning I have climbed them. But I have never climbed in a Mountain range I enjoy more than in the High Tatras. There is a reason and rightfully so they are called the Biggest Little Mountains in the World.

KC if you ever get the chance to make it to the Tatras I would recommend Rysy From the Polish side. It's a 20 mile out and back, once the climbing starts it is straight up with a bunch of chain sections no switchbacks. Of course climbing Gerlachovsky Stit would be a must. Finishing on Krivan would be a pretty complete trip in my eyes.

I find this hard to believe, after asking about enhanced breathing. Specially when we are only talking about a 10,000 foot ish ceiling. All I can say is those that climb know and admit they are never fit enough. I will stand by my original post. Good luck on your adventure and be safe.

MontanaCreek Hunter:

Thanks for the tip about the Tatras. I would love to climb there but sadly my climbing days are probably over. I will have my hip replaced a month from now, knee is bad too. Can't get in shape with bag wheels. Frost bit my lungs on McKinley and still have sleep apnea from that. The list goes on. I agree you can never be in good enough shape. Getting old is not for sissies.

KC