Posing somewhat of a hypothetical and excuse the topic if it’s been discussed thoroughly before. Wanted opinions on a home defense situation regarding one shot stopping/disabling perp in home from 10 yards or so. Realize the situation would call for possibly multiple shots however trying to get a better understanding of which provides highest probability of 1 shot rendering the perp and the threat neutralized. Consider both being good hits square in the middle of the upper chest.

Firearms would be 1911 platform for both 45ACP and 9mm Para. Both would be a 4.2” commander based model with both shooting JHP. 45ACP with 230 grain JHP, 9mm being 125-130 grain JHP.

No body armor encounter just a perp in street cloths. Realizing this is subjective would like to hear opinions on one shot stopping power regarding both.

The guy getting shot will never know the difference, choose the pistol you shoot best and go forth with confidence. Caliber isn't anything worth agonizing over, shooting skill and competence at arms is where the focus ought to be.

+P ammo would likely help for one shot stops. A 12ga with #4 buckshot will give better one shot stops on the average. Either way, be prepared to shoot more than once.

If you will look at the reported shootings where records of calibers used and distance the BG was shot there is absolutely no difference in calibers or bullet weight. The real reason there are a plethora of calibers is so the shooting public will buy more and more calibers, then have to buy more and more ammo and components to reload with if one is a reloader to keep the firearms, ammo companies and component manufacturers well supplied with the shooters hard earned money.
Across the average room giving a thug a skull full of 22 RF will be enough.
Don't buy into the caliber wars between the population who has no clue.
Whether you choose a 22 RF or 9MM, 40 S&W, 45 Auto or 40 gr or 115 gr or 165 gr or 230 grain there won't be a difference.
I practice on a regular basis with a Ruger MK II Government 22RF for home use.
Don't buy into the hype of caliber versus caliber.

A larger hole is never a bad thing, and I have yet to see a bigger hole cause less damage to someone.

I have also yet to see someone shoot a heavier recoiling firearm better than a lighter one. Precise placement is more important than than a a slightly larger bullet. Choose the one you can shoot the best, quickly.

Try what is called "The" test by Ken Hackathorn.

The 10-10-10 shooting drill.

Grab a a B8 center bullseye target.

The drill is 10 rounds, at 10 yards in 10 seconds.

Start from the low ready, or holster (does not really matter, just make it the same).

Max score is 100.


See how you do.

Run the drill 5 or so times with each gun, side by side and compare.

Whichever gun you shoot best, there is your answer.

It is a very good way to see where you are at performance wise.

I used to start my guys out every time I went to the range with this.

We started cold with this drill, and it was a very good indicator as to how they could perform with no warm up.


This would be a better objective answer to your inquiry rather than just random opinions, as far as I am concerned.

Mackay,
Does the 10-10-10 drill include a reload or is it strictly a shooting drill? The reason that I ask is because most 1911's in 45 ACP have 7 or 8 round magazines and generally require a reload for 10 shots. High capacity 45's, 9mm's and 40 S&W's don't require a reload. I agree that it is a great drill to test skill level.

Great advice, I could use some range time with handguns. My concentration in firearms is all hunting. Own quite a few long guns and upland and waterfowl shotguns. I do have a Ruger 44 Rem Mag 50th Anniversary New Model Blackhawk (Flattop Reissue Version), also S&W Model 60 Chiefs Special. I CC the Smith so I’m fine with that. Just wanted something for home that gave me more firepower on a faster handling and reloading platform. Something for the nightstand a bit more authoritative than the 38 Special. The 44 Mag is a consideration, but honestly it is my deer hunting revolver and would suffice, but with 6.5 inch barrel and weighing almost 4lbs and being SA, recoil and follow up shots would not be optimal in my opinion.

I like the 1911 SA platform regarding ergos and safeties. Will probably end up with the 45 ACP, but really like the 9mm x19 and 38 Super Auto on that platform as well.

I wouldn't count on a one shot stop from any handgun - period. One shot stops come from shotguns and rifles and even that is not guaranteed. Plan accordingly.

Nope, just 10 rounds.

You can use a 10 round mag if you like. When I use a 1911, I use my Wilson 10 rounders.

If it's for home defense, I'd forget about the 1911 and save some money and get whichever plastic hicap you like best--Glock, S&W M&P, Springfield XD, Walther, H&K VP9, etc. They don't have to be "broken in". They still work if they get a little dry. You don't have to worry about a safety if you've just woken up and are groggy.

In terms of one shot stops, consider this.

Lots of people are dropped with one shot. Or two.

What 99.9% of the inexperienced public don't realize is that just because you shoot someone, it does not mean that you are going to get an instantaneous reaction. It will likely take a bit. By the time you see the physiological reaction from the first shot, you may have put 5, 6 or 8 more into the guy, or guys. They may also have not stopped doing what they were doing that caused you to shoot them in the first place. You may take some hits in the mean time. Or get stabbed. Or hit by a hammer.

It takes a bit to see a reaction. Quite often you have to hammer people, unless you get lucky and get an CNS hit that flips a switch.

That is the reality.

This nonsense that you are going to calmly take your J Frame and place one round perfectly into the shirt button of a bad guy, , then calmly do the same to the next is just that. Nonsense.

It can be more like the all out knock down drag out event that happens when a football gets loose on the snap.

To @UPHiker’s point,

When the police take my $500 Glock for evidence, I’ll be rearmed with a similar $500 Glock in minutes.

I have a guy who is a retired LEO who had some former “clients” break into his house and he shot them with his $3,200 Ed brown 1911.

They still have his gun in the evidence locker.

Trying to predict what will happen in a lethal struggle seems futile to me.

Prepare the best you think you can with what you have and hope its all academic.

Handguns are a compromise for when long guns aren't practical or at hand. They don't excell at consistent one shot stops.

Handgun "Stopping Power" in the various service calibers is a myth. Short of the perfect CNS hit the bad guy is likely to still be functional for a bit after taking even some center mass hits. Ive seen people with multiple "10 ring" hits from handguns still be conscious and functional, even after massive blood loss. Not too long ago while working an urban EMS shift I treated and transported a guy who was fully awake, talking and STRUGGLING with me after 7 upper torso hits from a .40 S&W, who I found laying on the floor in a room looking like a literal bloodbath. My initial treatments included placement of an occlusive dressing on an obvious sucking chest wound from a shot that penetrated his right lung. I have NO doubt in my mind that had he been armed, this guy would have been capable of using a firearm even with the wounds he had!

I prefer to use something other then a handgun for home defense, but I also keep a Glock 17 with 17+1 HSTs,that I train with extensively, on my nightstand. My hope is that I can overcome the disadvantages of the use of a handgun round by being able to rapidly place up to 18 shots on target.

Be advised that currently, if you listed the only two pistols you own, the caliber you use may be dependent on what you can get as opposed to what you want. This as applied to both platform and ammunition.

Ammunition has changed a lot in the past twenty years. During the dark days of the previous AWB, when sales of newly manufactured detachable mags of over ten rounds was prohibited by law, many went back to the 45 ACP from the generally higher cap 9's due to the thinking that the 45 was a better stopper and now the firepower advantage of the 9 was no longer there.

Sending you a PM.

So true!!

Thanks for the info. I did speak to BPS counter this morning and they indicated a large selection of Ruger, Kimber and Glocks in stock. I’ll be checking it out tomorrow. Also have local gun shop with some fine long guns and assorted pistols and revolvers. I inquired about a CZ 75 B. They’re expecting a shipment in a week said importing from COVID19 ridden Europe was a cause of lack of production and import as well as Biden Admin making it more difficult to import in a timely manner. The shop did have a few CZ Models in stock. Thanks again for the input.

That’s a hard question to answer for me. I guess it would all come down to time as to which room I am in. Bed stand is a 1911 with 230 grain gold dots. Front room is a GP100 4” with 158 XTP or a 20 gauge w/00. Kitchen/dining room could be a G26 W/124 grain HP or 12 gauge w/00. Chitter is a PPK, TV room whatever I had decided to carry around the house that day or the AR.

Rugers are robust but can have problems. Kimbers are nice but can be finicky. Glocks are reliable, parts available and have proven themselves being used by thousands of police departments and Federal agencies. The Glock is also simple to use and maintain.

The CZ is an exceptional weapon but not popular outside of certain circles.

I wouldn’t be worrying myself too much about the difference in one-shot stopping-power between the two chamberings at this moment. Either will serve you adequately for home defense.

If a CZ 75 is, or is about to become, available to you for purchase, I would strongly advise purchasing it NOW. Along with a couple 18 rd mags for it. Thank me later.

Ammo for it will be another story entirely.

any 44 or larger with 200 gr HPs will do the trick ..

Ross,
A lot of good advise above. The one thing I'd add is that with todays firearm technology choosing a good load is probably more important than caliber in handgun.
Additionally I'm a proponent of high capacity because as mentioned above, handguns are not magic wands, you are not in a movie, and things can go sideways fast. Of course no matter how good you shoot it, how many rounds it holds or how good the ammo is, you gun of choice must adhere to rule #1 and go bang every time you pull the trigger.

Another excellent spot-on post - and by someone that we ALL should be paying attention to.. Kudos, MS...

Pistol grip 18" 410 shotgun. Less chance of a bullet going through the wall somewhere you don't want it to go and when you make contact it makes a really nasty hole. And with a 410 the typical female can use it. Trained properly a 12 gauge would be better but a 410 will do the job. As with everything that I write this is my own opinion only, unless you agree with me.

For home defense, I rely mostly on my dog. ( bulldog) Have a 18 " 12 gauge pump Ithaca also for back -up.

The CZ is a great weapon, but no better than many available RIGHT NOW. A bird in the hand is worth two in the brush, or something like that. I would get while the gettin's good and not wait on something that will "probably" be available next week. Remember to get some extra mags if they're available.

Good call, Dogs fill several roles in home defense. They're a deterrent for people who know you have one. They're a deterrent when a potential invader hears the bark; especially a big dog bark. If they persist, the dog can be a delay factor if the dog is willing to engage. In short, depending on the dog...The dog can handle the entire situation, or buy you enough time to give him/her some backup.

EE A bird in the hand can be messy!

Same platform, 230 JHP.

Yes, NOW is good. And even better on the full cap mags. I paid about a hundo more for my CZ than I should have, but was willing when I saw it pop into stock, as it was exactly what I wanted anyway. You just don’t know if or how long you’re going to be able to get those mags. If you want or would like a high cap nine, I’d do it quickly. Then there’s the whole possibility of imported firearms facing a shut-down, so if it’s a brand you like or prefer from over-seas, might be best to get while the gettin’s possible. Why I did.

Doesn't matter.

Your neighbors will appreciate YOU not missing the perp bullet sponge.

Your question suggests that you would be better served by purchasing a quality striker fired gun that will cost about 1/2 of a decent Commander. Take the money you saved and invest it in quality training and ammo. A dependable weapon in the hands of a trained and practiced shooter will serve if always carried.


mike r

Caliber is icing on the cake.

Most people don't have the cake, and should worry/train more to get it than worry about the icing.

One thing I would strongly suggest is getting involved with IDPA, USPSA or similar action-shooting discipline. You don't need a lot of money or equipment to get started and you don't have to burn the stages like a pro. Shooting against the timer, engaging targets in tactical priority, not breaking any rules, people watching you.... all this gives you practice at handling your gun and shooting under a certain amount of stress, as well as shooting, moving and thinking all combined. Even the bottom tier of frequent tactical shooting competitors will be ahead, in a bad situation, of the guy who shoots tin cans and bullseyes once in a while and spends the rest of his time arguing stopping power, bullet performance, magazine capacity, operating systems, and on and on and on

My neighbor would go on and on about gun selection, caliber selection, stopping power, etc... The thing he didn't do was train.

Well, we finally got him to go to the local USPSA match with us.

He finally realized what I meant by needing the cake before you worry about the icing.

Now, well, he still sucks relative to the "good" shooters, but he can actually move and engage targets, draw without dropping the gun, and reload in less than 5 seconds.

9mm vs 45 acp ?
Why not have both, in multiple?
Smaller versions for easier hide when clothing types change.

Some days maybe your back is bad and you just need lighter and or smaller.

damn the cost, I am going with efficiency, efficacy, and results. I can buy another $3K pistol. Or whatever.

Yeah, while it'll suck to lose the can on my AR pistol, if someone breaks in, I'm grabbing the best tool, not the one I don't mind losing.

It'll still be less than the lawyer costs.

Not all that sure +P ammo would make a difference. Depends a lot on where you hit the intruder. I’d take shot placement over +P ammo, given the choice.
Although waking suddenly at 3:00 AM, my shot placement probably won’t be as good as when I’m at the Range.

I’ve got 3 guns within arm’s reach when I’m in bed. A Glock 32 in .357 Sig, a 1911 in 45 acp. And a Rem 870 12 ga pump loaded with 8 rounds of # 4 buckshot.

The 12 ga will always be the first one I grab if I have time.

Yep. Great recommendation !

Common sense indicates 11,43mm can be more forgiving in bullet expansion department than a 9mm. Another plus for 11,43mm is substantially heavier bullet weight if 230gr loads are used. Another way to settle this is just to look pics of two cartridges next to one another.

My 1911A1 type actually states it is chambered for a 11.43MM cartridge .. Either will work, but in a stressful situation a 12 gauge with buck is your best bet. I shoot the 45 1911 very well, but have shot the 9mm's as well. EDC is a Sig 238, only a 9X17.. also do well with it, and it is a tiny little thing. Hoping I never actually have to use any of them. The old Boy Scout motto, be prepared.

Shot placement trumps all, never a downside to more magazine capacity. Fast accurate followup shots are also a plus.
Plus P ammo is a plus in my experience if you shoot them well.

Yes, but I don't know how a $3000 1911 45 will do better than a $600 G21.

UPhiker

it's all up to you my friend. Pick the one you use the best, not the one that costs the most or the least. Your life may be on the line, not your pocketbook.

But I do know what my AR pistol with a can and Aimpoint do better than a G21......

Can't argue with the shotgun recommendation. A 20 gauge vs 12, might be just as effective, less recoil, faster shot to shot....

Hopefully none of us will ever be put in a compromised situation.

But to handgun chambering? I would be happy with whatever I shoot well that has proper ammo.

Are you his royal penis cleaner?

You cheerleaders are a hoot!

All this talk of AR's and Shotguns is nice, but truth of the matter is, for those of us who EDC, even at home, that's the gun typically on us or within reach. It's also what we carry the most, are most familiar with, and probably shoot the most.

Most events we "check out" are mundane and don't warrant grabbing a long gun, especially if you live in an urban area and might have to venture outside to see what's going on. We don't need Karen calling the cops on us. In the event of glass breaking, or gun shots that are really close, well, that's different and warrants a different response, but those are a small minority of occurrences.

There's a lot of good advise in this thread, but first apply it to your carry gun. Whether your inside your home, or out and about, in most instances that's what's you'll have, so choose something sufficient for as many tasks as possible.

And if you don't have an EDC, well, you need need to change that.

I’ll argue against shotguns. Especially pump shotguns. I’ve seen lots of people get wild with one because they can’t manage the recoil, or have feeding issues due to short shucking or other issues that come from a lack of practice. A rifle with the right ammo won’t penetrate any more walls than a shotgun, sometimes less. Recoil is manageable, all you have to do is take the safety off and pull the trigger. An AR is also more ergonomically suited to a short length of pull.

My HD guns are 11.5 ARs with lights and aimpoints. I also have a couple M&P45 2.0 pistols with lights as well.