Very interesting (to me) conversation going on with Doc, Jorge, Bleux and others around application of firearms in a fight. Got me to thinking that maybe a separate thread would be interesting around training.

Not so much drills or the like but how to select someone to train with.

So over my time as a shooter - it was basically you go to Thunder Ranch or you go to Gunsite.

Later guys like Chris Costa/Travis Haley/ (under Magpul at the time) sort of became popular, as youtube did. Lots of youtube "trainers".

How do you guys vet whom you wish to train with? If the idea is to learn what you don't know - how do you know what you're learning is "right"?

If that makes sense.

How do you vet, who's on your short list? You're plunking down 2k plus ammo, airfare, food/lodging - what's making you say yes?

Wearing sunglasses on overcast days is a big red flag for me. The runner-ups would be cursing every 3rd word, undiagnosed ADHD and excessive movement of the arms during explaining.

More than 15 minutes listening to Clint Smith and I'd shoot myself.

I can’t type it all right now, but I do have one recommendation...

I’d ask that the responses also include what type of training you’ve attended, what level of shooter you were when you took it, and how the class went for you.

What I looked for, and benefited from, 15 years ago is very different than now.

I curse every third word..........That instructor would make me feel comfortable.

Tactical beards.
Make sure they have the tactical beards.
And tattoos.

I don't think tactical training and shooting training necessarily go hand in hand. Most tactical shooters are not good shooters and most skilled shooters are not tactically trained. I've outshot most military and LE guys I've had the experience of competing against, and there's been quite a few. Ask me about CQB tactics however, and I'm clueless (working to change that). Personally, if I want to improve my shooting skills, I'd seek out a seasoned, medaled competitor. If I want to improve my personal defense, tactical, awareness, gunfighting skills I'm going to look for a tenured LE officer or combat veteran. Brand name schools mean nothing to me.

LMAO. Yes!

Yes indeed.

I learned a lot of my pistol fundamentals at my local gun club, learning how to shoot National Match targets with a .22 pistol and a 9mm Beretta. Those fundamentals haven’t changed: grip, sight picture, trigger control, stance to natural point of aim, and so on. But when it came to learning how to use a handgun as a defensive weapon, the very first class I took, in 1998, was Massad Ayoob’s LFI-I. It’s a good class for introduction to defensive pistol even today, I believe. I’ve used Ayoob’s program (used to be called Stressfire) to teach a lot of newbies in the past.

I know the basic defensive handgun classes taught by John Farnham, Tom Givens, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, are all good variations on the same theme. I have taken all of them over the years to find out what other schools teach and to keep from getting stagnant. I honestly don’t think you can go wrong with any of those schools.

For more advanced shooting schools, well, do you want to get to be a better competitive shooter, or learn some gunfighting skills? For competition, you’re best advised to take school from people who teach that well, and I don’t know who’s currently real good any more. Blue, you’ve taken training from Ben Stoeger and Karl Rehn, I believe, and they’re pretty good, no? For tactical stuff, there are a ton of good schools, but I’ve stuck with Thunder Ranch for Pistol and rifle classes and this fall will be going to Gunsite (for a revolver class with Chuck Haggard and Daryl Bohlke).

It depends on what you want to learn. I'm interested in fighting with a pistol, so I want trainers who know how to do that.

Thus far, I've trained twice with John Farnham, a Colorado peace officer. Excellent course material but I don't know if he's still around.

I've also trained with Larry Vickers and Pat McNamara, both former Delta/CAG guys. They know the material, they know how to teach, and they've been in gunfights. More important, they teach you how to set up a solid training program for yourself after you leave class. Both were on the road pre-COVID, so I just waited until they offered a course near me and took it from there. I also trained with Ken Hackathorn, mostly because of his connection to Jeff Cooper. He offered a more comprehensive set of drills than either Mac or LAV, and I learned how to apply the lessons learned in class after the fact. Ken is in semi-retirement so if you want to train with him, then you'd better get on it.

The Farnham training was provided by my employer so I don't know what it cost. Cost for each of the other courses was around $500 plus ammo.

For the kind of money you're talking about, I'd consider Rogers (https://rogersshootingschool.com/). His open-enrollment courses are limited because he has so many special operations guys moving through there so you may have to reserve a slot months in advance.


Okie John

This is a great thread and what I have been wondering. I am a shotgunner (you may can tell by my handle "pullit") and shoot a fair amount of rifles, but handguns have never been my thing. In the last few years, I have gotten "honest" with myself about my handgun skills and to that point, I suck.
That said, I figure if I am going to carry (which I do) it really is very little use if I can't hit what I am shooting at. I am working on getting better (self taught) and working with a few friends that are fairly good at hitting the targets. That said, most may be good at "target shooting" but I don't see them practicing any type of self defense stuff.
I feel like I would need to start at the start and work my way up. By that I mean, I don't think I am ready for a $2K course at Gunsite, or Thunder Ranch but need to start somewhere. As a "self taught" shooter, I know you can teach yourself a lot of bad habits and it is easier to learn it right the first time.
I am hoping to find something in this or other threads here about where/how to start and work my way up.


As a side note, I am getting better at the target range, I still have some fliers that I can not explain but the target does not look as bad as when I started...lol

lmao I was gonna suggest Ayoob sarcastically because I know there are people on here who absolutely despise him. I don't purport to be "the Master Gunfighter" as Jan Libourel used to say, so I have no idea whether Ayoob is good or not. I always liked his articles and felt like he had a lot of worth to impart.

I agree on the trainers you endorse. They’re all good. I’d like to take a Rogers class.

I’m very interested in this thread since both my kids are prime age to take this sort of training.

My experience - Took the 5 day Intermediate Pistol course at Chapman Academy in July, 1980 with, of all things, a BHP, the only suitable pistol I owned. Although I had been shooting various pistols, notably my Dad’s HP, since I was 10, I considered myself a complete novice to this type of shooting. Though I wasn’t the odd man out, turned out there were two brothers from Chicago among the ten of us, who used S&W 4” M19s, one blue one nickel, I guess so they could tell whose was which. The rest of the students had various forms of 1911, all in 45, including one LW Commander wielded by a black belt from Seattle. The guy proved to be interesting due to his total inability to “unlearn” his Karate stance. No matter how many times Ray and the other instructors would nudge him into the shooting stance they were teaching, he would revert to his stance the second the whistle blew. It was pretty amusing.

To say the course was eye opening would be a huge understatement. The emphasis was on stance, presentation, getting hits quickly and accurately. Almost nothing about tactics though.
The experience motivated me to take up IPSC on a regular basis in the K.C. area, where I met Greg Moats, who used to post here regularly though I haven’t seen him on the fire in over a year.
I gave up on competing in IPSC about ’83 when the various comped barrels and race guns began to take over.

Fast forward to 1994 in NJ. My employer sent me to Quantico to attend the High Risk Personnel course. The instructors were Marine E-5s or 6s with the chief instructor in the person of Ernest Langdon. To a man, the 5 instructors used privately purchased Glocks despite having access to issue M9s. Kind of funny given Langdon’s current billet.
But man could those guys shoot! Between the five of them they had attended every major, and quite a few lesser, shooting schools in the country. They distilled all that into a five day course which was a very good mix of trigger time, tactics and mind set. Their intent was to teach how to survive a gunfight and they did it well.
I used a Sig 228 and can honestly say, up to that time, it was the most fun I’d had with my
clothes on.

Sorry to be so long winded. I look forward to hear from others.

You’ve done the hardest part by admitting that you’re behind the curve and that you need help.

InSights Training Center (https://www.insightstraining.com/) in Washington state has a solid curriculum, especially their General Defensive Handgun (GDH) course. Take a look at it, then look for someone who teaches something similar near you. Disclaimer: I’ve trained with these guys, I know the people who own and run it, and I served on active duty with a couple of their former instructors.

You’re probably ready for something like GDH. I’ve taken it and the POI is similar to what you’ll get from a celebrity trainer. It was a two-day course. It started with safety, then moved to smoothness, then building speed on single targets, then hitting multiple targets, then shooting on the move, then engaging multiple targets on the move. I don’t remember whether we did any low-light work—I think we did—but that’s essential as well. You can find after action reports (AAR) on this course and others like it online; research pays off.

The FAQ on the GDH page is telling. It describes a solid carry setup and prohibits some of the gear that’s proven to be problematic in classes and in the real world. Recommendations are fine but avoid anyone who insists on a specific make or model of weapon for this level of training. This indicates a very narrow worldview and (probably) the inability to teach other systems. Prohibiting specific gear can go either way, but is usually based on safety. These guys are dialed in to the training community, so they're basing their policy on feedback from hundreds of trainers working with thousands of students over decades of training time. If you insist on running gear that they prohibit, then don't try to force them to let you use it. Find another instructor instead. I'd also avoid instructors who run gear that most other trainers prohibit.

From there, interview the instructors about their approach to training. Avoid people who dodge questions about HOW they train and who focus instead on their background or combat experience. Look for people who use a timer and standard drills on scorable paper targets.

You want standard drills because they’ve been developed by people who understand fighting with a pistol—that’s why they’re standards. They’re based on real-world problems so they help ingrain useful skills, which is why law enforcement agencies and special operations units use them. Classic examples include the Mozambique Drill, El Presidente, The Test, 1-5, and The Wizard. They may be beyond your skill level right now but a class of this type should include them. Avoid instructors who haven’t heard of them or who tell you that they’re useless. You want scorable paper targets and timers because they provide objective feedback on your skill and you can use them to track your progress.

If you go through this type of training, then I’m not sure that you need a week at Gunsite or a similar school. I trained with the people I did because I wanted to see how they taught. They covered much the same POI as General Defensive Handgun, but with a perspective informed by recent real-world special operations experience. This was 20-ish years after my special operations career had ended, and I also wanted to see how things had changed.

Finally, there can be a temptation to use AARs and YouTube videos to start training yourself. DO NOT DO THIS, especially on drills. You need a coach who understands each drill and who can teach you to execute it safely—for example, you can easily shoot yourself if you don't learn the draw stroke properly, and you can easily shoot someone else during the turn on El Presidente if you get ahead of yourself instead of learning it step by step.

PM me if you have questions.


Okie John

Not to be a jerk, but I've been told that's the only way I'm capable of communicating....Nobody's actually answering Teal's questions.



Here's a few of my thoughts, in no particular order...

I don't draw really clear lines between competition / tactics / marksmanship. Sure, some of it is specific, but there's a LOT more overlap than people think or admit. I approach a threshold in a match exactly like I would in "tactics". I keep my eyes up, pick up pieces of what's available as soon as possible, and discriminate - shoot as soon as I can. In a match it's just at a faster pace than it would be in SOME tactics....but not all.

Basic marksmanship is the foundation, but the competition guys are where you'll learn to apply that marksmanship at speed. Nobody on the planet shoots accurately at speed as well as the top USPSA guys. That's why the top USPSA guys get contracted to teach the tactical guys how to shoot.

Marksmanship classes should be how to shoot accurately, how to clear malfunctions, single hand shooting, draws, reloads--All of the gun handling stuff.
When I hear "tactical" class I think low light, barricades, positional shooting, priority of fire, moving with a gun around other people, vehicle work, multiple ready positions, target discrimination, medical, etc. Each of those could be its own multiple day class.
A competition class will focus on more specific match related stuff. Shooting at speed, stage breakdown, special situations (activators, etc), and lots of stage practice.

So when I think "I wanna take a class" I break it down into one of those categories.

Then I start looking for people that teach some of that stuff. Some people have a very specific niche. Centrifuge has the vehicle based niche dominated. He's the only guy I'd even bother with right now. He also has a great low light class. Find the people who do ONE thing and look hard at them. Mike Pannone does a concealed carry class that I've heard is good. He does some other things as well but he has a background specific to that.

Then I ask around. In my circle it's not hard to find somebody who knows somebody who have trained with most any of the really good guys. So ask me. Or look online for AARs. Call the instructor and tell them specifically where you're at and what you're needing. They'll let you know if it's a good fit or not. Ask for references. I'm always willing to provide references from people with a similar background.

I also look at teaching experience and style. Personal preference plays a lot into that. I'd shoot myself if I had to listen to Clint Smith for a week, no matter how good the class was. Some classes are very structured, some are not. When you're starting out a structured class is good and for tactics classes it's good. See if their website has a breakdown of what they'll cover each day. It should, or they should be able to provide it. See if they have class clips or videos on YouTube. Do they shout a lot? Watch a Pat Macnamara video and ask if you could handle that for three days. Some guys eat that up. Some, not so much.

If they're available I prefer folks with a little overlap. Frank Proctor is a great example of a guy who has taken the best from the face shooting and competition world and merged them into a program.

It'll be hard to know if what you're learning is "right" at first. Some of the bad stuff will be obvious, but not all of it. But that's true with anything.

Frank Proctor is an example of a guy that's not structured at all. He starts off by just having everybody shoot at a target and watching them. Then he picks out a few things he sees wrong, comes up with a drill to fix it, and repeats. He has a few things he wants to cover during the day but not an actual drill sheet. He'll have three different stations set up to work on different things, bring everybody in for a teaching point, and then say, "Now go explore." He wants you to figure things out and learn to diagnose and fix problems. It was a great class. But even five years ago I would have not gotten much out of it. Ten years ago I would have been lost all day. It seems like the more advanced the class is the less structured it needs to be, because the students have more experience and can learn in a different way.

For a general "how to shoot a pistol" class most any of the big names would be good without doing much harm. The more advanced you get the less that's true, but the better you'll be at separating the wheat from the chaff.

Another option would be to get in touch with your local USPSA club. See if one of their better shooters offers basic pistol classes. An M class USPSA shooter is a better shooter than what 95% of the population will ever be. When you get in touch with them make sure it's a how to shoot class, not a competition class. And ask about their teaching background. Lots of guys can shoot, very few can shoot and teach.

Or come to Texas and see a guy named Bluedreaux. That's always a safe bet.

Thanks Blue - outstanding post and exactly what I was hoping for with the thread. Much appreciated.

A+ Post

Okie John, excellent post and advice. Thanks.

Excellent post, Bluedreaux.

Guys who can shoot AND teach are rare. If I were looking to move past newbie status I would definitely look up Procter or one of the other guys you mentioned, but I'm thinking it would be better just to drive over to your neck of the woods and get you to teach me. I expect you're as good a teacher as you are a shooter.

Glad to see someone else gets it.

Teal... I have not answered your question as asked, my bad.

Are you still in Green Bay? I have a trainer in mind in the Ozaukee County area you might want to look up, depending on what kind of training you’re looking for. PM me if you care to discuss.

I took Ayoob's advanced stressfire course a long time ago.

It was good for getting your draw down and fast hits, which is all it claimed to be.

Blue's suggestion of seeking out a local USPSA group would be a great start for anyone. Watch what normal people can achieve and note the emphasis on safety and gun handling fundamentals and then tackle the process of mastering the fundamentals of marksmanship. Compete as soon as possible and you will quickly learn that everyone is watching and judging you on 2 things; muzzle awareness and finger in the right place at the right time. A competent USPSA shooter that can teach will prepare you to learn the tactical stuff.

many popular gun schools are bastions of macho posers. If you can find a real teacher to lead you through the fundamentals in one on one training you will be able to advance much quicker and be able to choose your next level of advancement from a realistic knowledge base.

Stay humble and leave your ego at the door.


mike r

Forgot to mention a few of the people I've trained with.

A guy, and I can go find the cert if somebody is interested, from Gunsite who struck out on his own. IIRC he also had a brother who taught there...? It was very early in my shooting career and was exactly what I needed. Very drill-focused and motivating. Pretty outside the box at the time, his road classes had everything he couldn't / didn't teach at Gunsite.

Ben Stoeger. This was several years ago and I wasn't equipped for it. When I left I was a better shooter, through sheer volume. I shot 1990 rounds in two days, then blasted the last 10 into the berm just because. The class was match specific and had almost no "how to shoot" in it. I was in way over my head. I understand that his classes are much more structured now and contain a lot more "how to shoot", probably as a result of his government contracted training. And when you leave he gives you a personal training plan based off drills in his book, which he also gives you. I think he also has a how to shoot class. Have thick skin or at least show up with the understanding the guy is on the spectrum.

Frank Proctor. Already talked a bit about him.

Max Joseph, a guy out of California. I've taken shooting and tactics classes from him. Very intense guy. Received one of my best shooting compliments from him. Lots of drills. Lots of shooting. Precision focused shooting.

JJ Racaza. I shot with him earlier this year in a competition specific class. Excellent teacher and excellent shooter. He's seen the competition and tactical side of things. Our class was competition focused but I believe he has shooting classes too. I highly recommend him. The class was very well structured and when you leave you have a plan his outline for the class to know how to build a training program for yourself.

Anyone else I've shot with aren't big enough to be known.

Teal if your out West look up Houston Shaw in Idaho. More Central South? Midsouth institute of self defense shooting started by Houston's dad John Shaw.

I dont know, do know it has to be a mindset, firmly grip the weapon, stay in/behind the front sight, empty and reload, the right mind can be trained, a little crazy may help too, for example Joe Frazier and his son Marvis, Joe had it, Marvis didn't, he got his Mom's mind.

Do these trainers accommodate boomers? Rest periods, medication brakes, nap times etc etc 😂

I'd look at Rob Vogel, Chris Cerino, JJ Racazza, Dustin Ellermann (especially for youth), or Riley Bowman...

The Self brothers? Ed and Giles? Both GS instructors---ex LEO's and, at least Ed, ex Military also.

I just found the certificate. It was Jack Furr.

What is this "it's a mindset" thing? One of my buddies has started blabbing that statement, having recently taken a couple of training classes taught by former DOD "operators".

Great advice. You’ll get more out of it if you’re mentally prepared to be trained. Even if you may not agree with something, just tuck it away and it may resurface when you have more context. There’s always one guy who wants to out-talk the trainer.

Mindset should be things like situational awareness, emotionally preparing for violence, stress inoculation, and such.

Instead, it's become the fallback buzzword for people to throw around when they know they can't shoot.

I've got some extra time so I thought I'd add some tips for those guys who do go to a formal training class...

Clean and lube your gun before you go. Replace wear parts if they're close to the end of life. Bring spare parts that are prone to breakage and tools to replace them.
Bring a spare gun. Or two.
Bring spare parts for your gear as well. And blue loctite.
Rain gear, sunscreen, and chalk for your hands if it's hot and you're prone to sweating.
Bring all your mags. For a rifle class, bring them all preloaded.
A little folding stool makes a big difference at the end of several days.
Excedrin and Imodium. These are non-negotiable.

I always have a dump pouch on me. A little one just big enough for a nalgene water bottle. In it I stow empty mags, pens, and a steno pad. Take notes on everything. Draw diagrams of the target setup and drills. At the end of the day you WON'T remember all the things that made you say, "Ah-HA".

I don't have anything to add other than to say: I've enjoyed the heck outta this thread!

Me too. I appreciate everyone for the answers, much to think about. Just wanted to talk about the why - not as much as the what - if that makes sense.

I'm not currently looking to take a course this summer (other things going on right now) as it would all entail some serious travel etc. But I keep a mental "roladex" of things I learn here so I'm ready when it's time.

Appreciate all of it.

First off, I appreciate your attitude and honest self appraisal---you're already ahead of the Dunning-Kruger effect and therefore will probably benefit from any number of instructors. I would also encourage you to not dichotomize training into "target shooting" and "self defense stuff," as in reality for entry level training they go hand in hand, depending upon what you mean by "self defense stuff." Don't get too hung up on feeling the need for an instructor with a military or LEO background to teach "self defense stuff." The WORST handgun training that I ever received was in the Marine Corps and anyone that's spent any amount of time in law enforcement (or conducting "combat" oriented shooting matches) will tell you that although there are some wonderful exceptions, most cops can't, won't or don't shoot worth a crap. In the early 80's a number of the special operations forces, Seals, Delta, etc. took training with Ray Chapman, Bill Wilson and John Shaw--Ray, although underaged, joined the Marine Corps at the end of WW2 but if he was ever in combat he never acknowledged it and Bill and John had/have never heard a shot fired in anger. Still the organizations came back for second and third classes refining their combat tactics from these "target shooting" guys. If an instructor does much more than casually relate their background experience, I suggest that you consider it a red flag. JMO-YMMV.
.....not sure how to address your "I don't think I am ready...." comment---if you mean skill wise, let me dissuade you from feeling that way. At Gunsite, I've seen students show up that literally didn't know from which end of the gun the bullet exits (one was a young girl in a witness protection program)---by the end of the week she was gun handling and shooting (they're different) as well as many students that had been shooting for years. DocRocket and I took a class together at Thunder Ranch and I've known Clint for years and have taken 4 or 5 classes from him. He's more intense than anything you'd get at Gunsite (he can be like R. Lee Emery on a caffeine rush), but he's a great diagnostician (if there is such a word?). Don't feel that you need to be particularly skilled prior to taking a class from either source. The benefit of taking a 5 day class (like at GS or TR) is that most people get worn down by the third day---IMO, the last two days are where the skill development takes place and new techniques start to feel more intuitive. 2 and 3 day classes are much easier to take, are less expensive and require less ammo but IMO have less lasting effect.
...Blue's suggestion about going to a USPSA (or IDPA) match and getting suggestions, is a great idea. Also, don't wait until you feel "confident" to start shooting with them. You'll learn more in one day than you will in 6 months of watching youtube videos. Don't let the fear of developing a bad habit keep you from practicing on your own.

"...I can not explain...." perhaps the greatest purpose of training is to develop the ability to self-diagnose. With your attitude, you'll benefit from training more than most.

One last note.....don't equate finding a trainer with finding a spouse......it's not like you only get one (or at least one at a time). Some great trainers just won't be great for you, but may be wonderful for others.....i.e. I don't think that I could ever take a class from James Yeager or Rob Pincus, but I know guys that have taken classes and like both of them.

Thank you for taking time to break down my post, I do take it to heart.
As a side note, I have booked (2) training classes at Royal Range in Nashville. Turns out I know the head instructor there, and go to church with him. He was on the Metro Nashville Police Dept at their academy and was their head instructor. I guess he retired and is now the head instructor at Royal Range. He is the one that taught the class I took for my CCW permit years ago.
Anyway I have signed up for Defensive pistol 1 and Defensive pistol 2 classes to be held next month.
This is a start and I can build from what I see there and from other suggestions I have read in this post.

Crazy thing, I am both nervous and excited about the classes and I have never taken but one firearms class (other than my CCW class) in my life and it was a major bust. It was taught by a really good skeet shooter (it was a skeet shooting class) that was on the national level. I learned one thing from that class, and that was, just because you are a great shot, does not make you a great teacher.

.....good for you Pullit....I've heard good things about this range, I'm sure that you'll learn a lot.
......absolutely....a more insightful comment has never been spoken!!! There are a few exceptions. My wife and I retired to Wyoming and built a shooting range on which I host outside trainers. I've hosted Jerry Miculek twice and Rob Leatham last year and will probably again in 2022. They're both superb instructors with Rob being the finest that I've EVER experienced except for perhaps his wife Kippi. Both teach "outside the box" stuff that's antithetical to what most traditional instructors preach. One of the greatest losses to the shooting world (other than the early demise of Pat Rogers and Louis Awerbuck) is that Dave Spaulding is hanging it up next year. His mentor Ken Hackathorn has also quit instructing which was another great loss. Still, there are other good instructors that are appearing in the teaching arena to take their place and your starting at Royal Range will set you on the road in good fashion. Best of luck.

I was fortunate enough to take 8 levels of training from Tom Givens . He later developed the training qualification course for the FBI and trained their instructors .

You can check out some of his you tube clips .