Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Training with the handgun

Very interesting (to me) conversation going on with Doc, Jorge, Bleux and others around application of firearms in a fight. Got me to thinking that maybe a separate thread would be interesting around training.

Not so much drills or the like but how to select someone to train with.

So over my time as a shooter - it was basically you go to Thunder Ranch or you go to Gunsite.

Later guys like Chris Costa/Travis Haley/ (under Magpul at the time) sort of became popular, as youtube did. Lots of youtube "trainers".

How do you guys vet whom you wish to train with? If the idea is to learn what you don't know - how do you know what you're learning is "right"?

If that makes sense.

How do you vet, who's on your short list? You're plunking down 2k plus ammo, airfare, food/lodging - what's making you say yes?

Wearing sunglasses on overcast days is a big red flag for me. The runner-ups would be cursing every 3rd word, undiagnosed ADHD and excessive movement of the arms during explaining.

More than 15 minutes listening to Clint Smith and I'd shoot myself.

I can’t type it all right now, but I do have one recommendation...

I’d ask that the responses also include what type of training you’ve attended, what level of shooter you were when you took it, and how the class went for you.

What I looked for, and benefited from, 15 years ago is very different than now.

I curse every third word..........That instructor would make me feel comfortable.

Tactical beards.
Make sure they have the tactical beards.
And tattoos.

I don't think tactical training and shooting training necessarily go hand in hand. Most tactical shooters are not good shooters and most skilled shooters are not tactically trained. I've outshot most military and LE guys I've had the experience of competing against, and there's been quite a few. Ask me about CQB tactics however, and I'm clueless (working to change that). Personally, if I want to improve my shooting skills, I'd seek out a seasoned, medaled competitor. If I want to improve my personal defense, tactical, awareness, gunfighting skills I'm going to look for a tenured LE officer or combat veteran. Brand name schools mean nothing to me.

LMAO. Yes!

Yes indeed.

I learned a lot of my pistol fundamentals at my local gun club, learning how to shoot National Match targets with a .22 pistol and a 9mm Beretta. Those fundamentals haven’t changed: grip, sight picture, trigger control, stance to natural point of aim, and so on. But when it came to learning how to use a handgun as a defensive weapon, the very first class I took, in 1998, was Massad Ayoob’s LFI-I. It’s a good class for introduction to defensive pistol even today, I believe. I’ve used Ayoob’s program (used to be called Stressfire) to teach a lot of newbies in the past.

I know the basic defensive handgun classes taught by John Farnham, Tom Givens, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, are all good variations on the same theme. I have taken all of them over the years to find out what other schools teach and to keep from getting stagnant. I honestly don’t think you can go wrong with any of those schools.

For more advanced shooting schools, well, do you want to get to be a better competitive shooter, or learn some gunfighting skills? For competition, you’re best advised to take school from people who teach that well, and I don’t know who’s currently real good any more. Blue, you’ve taken training from Ben Stoeger and Karl Rehn, I believe, and they’re pretty good, no? For tactical stuff, there are a ton of good schools, but I’ve stuck with Thunder Ranch for Pistol and rifle classes and this fall will be going to Gunsite (for a revolver class with Chuck Haggard and Daryl Bohlke).

It depends on what you want to learn. I'm interested in fighting with a pistol, so I want trainers who know how to do that.

Thus far, I've trained twice with John Farnham, a Colorado peace officer. Excellent course material but I don't know if he's still around.

I've also trained with Larry Vickers and Pat McNamara, both former Delta/CAG guys. They know the material, they know how to teach, and they've been in gunfights. More important, they teach you how to set up a solid training program for yourself after you leave class. Both were on the road pre-COVID, so I just waited until they offered a course near me and took it from there. I also trained with Ken Hackathorn, mostly because of his connection to Jeff Cooper. He offered a more comprehensive set of drills than either Mac or LAV, and I learned how to apply the lessons learned in class after the fact. Ken is in semi-retirement so if you want to train with him, then you'd better get on it.

The Farnham training was provided by my employer so I don't know what it cost. Cost for each of the other courses was around $500 plus ammo.

For the kind of money you're talking about, I'd consider Rogers (https://rogersshootingschool.com/). His open-enrollment courses are limited because he has so many special operations guys moving through there so you may have to reserve a slot months in advance.


Okie John

This is a great thread and what I have been wondering. I am a shotgunner (you may can tell by my handle "pullit") and shoot a fair amount of rifles, but handguns have never been my thing. In the last few years, I have gotten "honest" with myself about my handgun skills and to that point, I suck.
That said, I figure if I am going to carry (which I do) it really is very little use if I can't hit what I am shooting at. I am working on getting better (self taught) and working with a few friends that are fairly good at hitting the targets. That said, most may be good at "target shooting" but I don't see them practicing any type of self defense stuff.
I feel like I would need to start at the start and work my way up. By that I mean, I don't think I am ready for a $2K course at Gunsite, or Thunder Ranch but need to start somewhere. As a "self taught" shooter, I know you can teach yourself a lot of bad habits and it is easier to learn it right the first time.
I am hoping to find something in this or other threads here about where/how to start and work my way up.


As a side note, I am getting better at the target range, I still have some fliers that I can not explain but the target does not look as bad as when I started...lol

lmao I was gonna suggest Ayoob sarcastically because I know there are people on here who absolutely despise him. I don't purport to be "the Master Gunfighter" as Jan Libourel used to say, so I have no idea whether Ayoob is good or not. I always liked his articles and felt like he had a lot of worth to impart.

I agree on the trainers you endorse. They’re all good. I’d like to take a Rogers class.

I’m very interested in this thread since both my kids are prime age to take this sort of training.

My experience - Took the 5 day Intermediate Pistol course at Chapman Academy in July, 1980 with, of all things, a BHP, the only suitable pistol I owned. Although I had been shooting various pistols, notably my Dad’s HP, since I was 10, I considered myself a complete novice to this type of shooting. Though I wasn’t the odd man out, turned out there were two brothers from Chicago among the ten of us, who used S&W 4” M19s, one blue one nickel, I guess so they could tell whose was which. The rest of the students had various forms of 1911, all in 45, including one LW Commander wielded by a black belt from Seattle. The guy proved to be interesting due to his total inability to “unlearn” his Karate stance. No matter how many times Ray and the other instructors would nudge him into the shooting stance they were teaching, he would revert to his stance the second the whistle blew. It was pretty amusing.

To say the course was eye opening would be a huge understatement. The emphasis was on stance, presentation, getting hits quickly and accurately. Almost nothing about tactics though.
The experience motivated me to take up IPSC on a regular basis in the K.C. area, where I met Greg Moats, who used to post here regularly though I haven’t seen him on the fire in over a year.
I gave up on competing in IPSC about ’83 when the various comped barrels and race guns began to take over.

Fast forward to 1994 in NJ. My employer sent me to Quantico to attend the High Risk Personnel course. The instructors were Marine E-5s or 6s with the chief instructor in the person of Ernest Langdon. To a man, the 5 instructors used privately purchased Glocks despite having access to issue M9s. Kind of funny given Langdon’s current billet.
But man could those guys shoot! Between the five of them they had attended every major, and quite a few lesser, shooting schools in the country. They distilled all that into a five day course which was a very good mix of trigger time, tactics and mind set. Their intent was to teach how to survive a gunfight and they did it well.
I used a Sig 228 and can honestly say, up to that time, it was the most fun I’d had with my
clothes on.

Sorry to be so long winded. I look forward to hear from others.

You’ve done the hardest part by admitting that you’re behind the curve and that you need help.

InSights Training Center (https://www.insightstraining.com/) in Washington state has a solid curriculum, especially their General Defensive Handgun (GDH) course. Take a look at it, then look for someone who teaches something similar near you. Disclaimer: I’ve trained with these guys, I know the people who own and run it, and I served on active duty with a couple of their former instructors.

You’re probably ready for something like GDH. I’ve taken it and the POI is similar to what you’ll get from a celebrity trainer. It was a two-day course. It started with safety, then moved to smoothness, then building speed on single targets, then hitting multiple targets, then shooting on the move, then engaging multiple targets on the move. I don’t remember whether we did any low-light work—I think we did—but that’s essential as well. You can find after action reports (AAR) on this course and others like it online; research pays off.

The FAQ on the GDH page is telling. It describes a solid carry setup and prohibits some of the gear that’s proven to be problematic in classes and in the real world. Recommendations are fine but avoid anyone who insists on a specific make or model of weapon for this level of training. This indicates a very narrow worldview and (probably) the inability to teach other systems. Prohibiting specific gear can go either way, but is usually based on safety. These guys are dialed in to the training community, so they're basing their policy on feedback from hundreds of trainers working with thousands of students over decades of training time. If you insist on running gear that they prohibit, then don't try to force them to let you use it. Find another instructor instead. I'd also avoid instructors who run gear that most other trainers prohibit.

From there, interview the instructors about their approach to training. Avoid people who dodge questions about HOW they train and who focus instead on their background or combat experience. Look for people who use a timer and standard drills on scorable paper targets.

You want standard drills because they’ve been developed by people who understand fighting with a pistol—that’s why they’re standards. They’re based on real-world problems so they help ingrain useful skills, which is why law enforcement agencies and special operations units use them. Classic examples include the Mozambique Drill, El Presidente, The Test, 1-5, and The Wizard. They may be beyond your skill level right now but a class of this type should include them. Avoid instructors who haven’t heard of them or who tell you that they’re useless. You want scorable paper targets and timers because they provide objective feedback on your skill and you can use them to track your progress.

If you go through this type of training, then I’m not sure that you need a week at Gunsite or a similar school. I trained with the people I did because I wanted to see how they taught. They covered much the same POI as General Defensive Handgun, but with a perspective informed by recent real-world special operations experience. This was 20-ish years after my special operations career had ended, and I also wanted to see how things had changed.

Finally, there can be a temptation to use AARs and YouTube videos to start training yourself. DO NOT DO THIS, especially on drills. You need a coach who understands each drill and who can teach you to execute it safely—for example, you can easily shoot yourself if you don't learn the draw stroke properly, and you can easily shoot someone else during the turn on El Presidente if you get ahead of yourself instead of learning it step by step.

PM me if you have questions.


Okie John

Not to be a jerk, but I've been told that's the only way I'm capable of communicating....Nobody's actually answering Teal's questions.



Here's a few of my thoughts, in no particular order...

I don't draw really clear lines between competition / tactics / marksmanship. Sure, some of it is specific, but there's a LOT more overlap than people think or admit. I approach a threshold in a match exactly like I would in "tactics". I keep my eyes up, pick up pieces of what's available as soon as possible, and discriminate - shoot as soon as I can. In a match it's just at a faster pace than it would be in SOME tactics....but not all.

Basic marksmanship is the foundation, but the competition guys are where you'll learn to apply that marksmanship at speed. Nobody on the planet shoots accurately at speed as well as the top USPSA guys. That's why the top USPSA guys get contracted to teach the tactical guys how to shoot.

Marksmanship classes should be how to shoot accurately, how to clear malfunctions, single hand shooting, draws, reloads--All of the gun handling stuff.
When I hear "tactical" class I think low light, barricades, positional shooting, priority of fire, moving with a gun around other people, vehicle work, multiple ready positions, target discrimination, medical, etc. Each of those could be its own multiple day class.
A competition class will focus on more specific match related stuff. Shooting at speed, stage breakdown, special situations (activators, etc), and lots of stage practice.

So when I think "I wanna take a class" I break it down into one of those categories.

Then I start looking for people that teach some of that stuff. Some people have a very specific niche. Centrifuge has the vehicle based niche dominated. He's the only guy I'd even bother with right now. He also has a great low light class. Find the people who do ONE thing and look hard at them. Mike Pannone does a concealed carry class that I've heard is good. He does some other things as well but he has a background specific to that.

Then I ask around. In my circle it's not hard to find somebody who knows somebody who have trained with most any of the really good guys. So ask me. Or look online for AARs. Call the instructor and tell them specifically where you're at and what you're needing. They'll let you know if it's a good fit or not. Ask for references. I'm always willing to provide references from people with a similar background.

I also look at teaching experience and style. Personal preference plays a lot into that. I'd shoot myself if I had to listen to Clint Smith for a week, no matter how good the class was. Some classes are very structured, some are not. When you're starting out a structured class is good and for tactics classes it's good. See if their website has a breakdown of what they'll cover each day. It should, or they should be able to provide it. See if they have class clips or videos on YouTube. Do they shout a lot? Watch a Pat Macnamara video and ask if you could handle that for three days. Some guys eat that up. Some, not so much.

If they're available I prefer folks with a little overlap. Frank Proctor is a great example of a guy who has taken the best from the face shooting and competition world and merged them into a program.

It'll be hard to know if what you're learning is "right" at first. Some of the bad stuff will be obvious, but not all of it. But that's true with anything.

Frank Proctor is an example of a guy that's not structured at all. He starts off by just having everybody shoot at a target and watching them. Then he picks out a few things he sees wrong, comes up with a drill to fix it, and repeats. He has a few things he wants to cover during the day but not an actual drill sheet. He'll have three different stations set up to work on different things, bring everybody in for a teaching point, and then say, "Now go explore." He wants you to figure things out and learn to diagnose and fix problems. It was a great class. But even five years ago I would have not gotten much out of it. Ten years ago I would have been lost all day. It seems like the more advanced the class is the less structured it needs to be, because the students have more experience and can learn in a different way.

For a general "how to shoot a pistol" class most any of the big names would be good without doing much harm. The more advanced you get the less that's true, but the better you'll be at separating the wheat from the chaff.

Another option would be to get in touch with your local USPSA club. See if one of their better shooters offers basic pistol classes. An M class USPSA shooter is a better shooter than what 95% of the population will ever be. When you get in touch with them make sure it's a how to shoot class, not a competition class. And ask about their teaching background. Lots of guys can shoot, very few can shoot and teach.

Or come to Texas and see a guy named Bluedreaux. That's always a safe bet.

Thanks Blue - outstanding post and exactly what I was hoping for with the thread. Much appreciated.

A+ Post

Okie John, excellent post and advice. Thanks.

Excellent post, Bluedreaux.

Guys who can shoot AND teach are rare. If I were looking to move past newbie status I would definitely look up Procter or one of the other guys you mentioned, but I'm thinking it would be better just to drive over to your neck of the woods and get you to teach me. I expect you're as good a teacher as you are a shooter.