Probably like most of you, my defensive handguns are loaded with Hydra-shok, HST+P or Critical Defense ammunition. We've all seen what expanding ammo does in soft tissue and I'm thinking that it might be even too good in certain situations. Case in point. We had a case in town last week where a guy was kicking the door to get in and the homeowner shot him in the leg which ended the threat. Nothing further on the news, but I'm thinking what if it could have just been a drunk that thought it was his house or a domestic dispute locking the guy out? A hardball round sure wouldn't be considered less than lethal, but just not as lethal as what some of us are loading. What are your thoughts?

The only reason to carry FMJ is if you are out of JHP.

I have premium hollow point ammo in .32 ACP, but when I carry my Kel-Tec P32, it's loaded with FMJ. In a caliber that weak, your priority has to be penetration, not expansion.

The thought of carrying FMJ as a less lethal alternative to JHP in case you need to wing a bad guy to mitigate damage rather than shoot for vital fight stopping organs with an expanding bullet is stunningly stupid!

I'm not sure what the police carry loaded, but very few perps recover from a police shooting. Their situation is different than a homeowner, but I'm sure there have been situations where they wanted something between a +P hollow point and a stun gun.

It was always such a letdown when Capt. Kirk ordered "Set phasers to stun!"

The answer to that isn't found in handgun or rifle ammo. There are some less lethal shotgun rounds.

How was the homeowner able to shoot the guy in the leg?

Did he shoot through the door? Did he open the door and shoot the quy?

I cannot follow the logic - not enough detail.

In general - my answer is this. I do not want to kill anyone. If I have to use a weapon, I am not going to shoot to wound. I am going to shoot untill the threat is stopped. If in stopping the threat my actions are lethal, then so be it.

So to answer your question - if one has time aim carefully and shoot a "lethal threat" in the leg - then that suggests to me that the threat was probably not lethal in the first place - and a weapon probably should not have been deployed.

Shooting someone in self defense had better be your only resort - and in that case "not as lethal" doesn't enter the equation.

Sure, if it was all I had, & so would anyone else with even a smidgen of a brain......................beats hell out of an empty gun every single time.

MM

So you didn't want to use lethal force, just hurt them a little bit..

If that is your thought process, unload your gun and put it away completely.

If you use a firearm, and make a statement such as that, you have just earned a one way ticket to prison(+/- the giant civil suit). You have just stated that you did not believe the situation warranted deadly force, but you used a deadly weapon anyway.


You have absolutely NO defense in that case. NONE. ZERO.

I often carry non-expanding loads for self defense, but not for the reason you described.

When your town has a gun buy back program take all your guns and turn them in.... you say some really dumb things here, this is no surprise to me

Exactly!

I carry non expanding ammo in numerous guns. For various reasons. Penetrating animals, vehicles, etc.

Some older 1911s simply are most reliable with traditional ball profiles, and I consider reliability of paramount performance. I would rather have a 1911 full of ball ammo that I know is going to run 100% of the time, versus a 1911 that is "pretty" reliable with JHPs. Frankly a good SWC or hard cast flat nose is no slouch in the terminal performance game from my experience.

Worrying about terminal performance is definitely secondary to reliability.

What's crazy is that this nonsense will go 4 pages, minimum. Ask people to actually shoot guns and it's crickets.

Let these guys load whatever they want. They'll probably miss anyway.

^^^This^^^ x10

+1

I still carry .45 ACP ball ammo. Nothing wrong with it at all.

I usually stagger my magazines HP, FMJ, HP, FMJ, HP...

That way if I need to just wing someone I can shoot a round into the dirt until the appropriate bullet is chambered.

Actually a lot of us shoot pretty frequently, but aren't interested in split times or big-name drills. I'm not knocking that; it has its place.

^ ^ ^ pretty much it ^ ^ ^

As long as it's reliable in the pistol I'm using, I don't care if it's ball or hollow point, or SWC. I mostly shoot 200gr. SWCs and have faith in them to be reliable in the pistols I use. If not, I wouldn't have been using them for 40+ years without incident. I think the sharp shoulder of a SWC might, MIGHT, be a better stopper than ball, but I've got a whole bunch of them (a WHOLE bunch) loaded up from my old competition days, and they still shoot and feed reliably without a problem.

LEHIGH DEFENSE Xtreme Defense or the same projectile in Underwood offerings.

An interesting point GeorgiaBoy. Then I guess I would ask when is the threat actually stopped? I'm one of the few people on here who has actually had a home invasion. I didn't want to kill anyone either, but three guys were in my house and one of them had already pummeled me pretty good out in the family room with a floor lamp and an oak bar stool. One ran out, but two of them had their backs to me in my son's room when I went for a handgun in another room. Thank God I didn't need to shoot because they ran when they heard me rack the slide. Were they a threat running away? The police dog tracked them and DNA got one guy with a prior burglary and he served time. The judge told him that he was lucky that I didn't shoot. Hard to say what you would do if you haven't been in that situation. I have.

Were they a threat running away? NO. But had they squared up with you, especially so since they had just beat you with a lamp and a bar stool, if they had turned and squared up instead of run... bang, bang, bang until there is no more need.

Shoot to stop. Stop meaning doing whatever they were doing that put you in fear for your life or limb.

Decades upon decades in the military and I didn't run into a single soul who wished they had less lethal ammo when the chips were down.

Ok - I'll give it a go.

During a home invasion - anyone in your house is a threat - period.

Were they a threat running away. No, not to you.

That's the way I understand the law in the State of GA.




Now here is the law according to GeorgiaBoy.

When those individuals invaded your home they showed that they had malace and intent. They have to be stopped. If you were to have shot the two guys running away - you would definently want me seated on the jury.

Not only would I vote not to convict - I would argue that you did your civic duty. Your actions probably saved someones life. How? Because the best predictor of future behavior - is - past behavior.



It is easy to call the shots sitting in my recliner. Does anyone really know how they will behave in the moment? A controntation on the street is one thing - but a home invasion - I can't even imagine. That's a different kind of threat. The enemy in no longer at the gate - the eneny is in the house. You are at your most vanurable in that scenario.

I am thankful your son was not hurt and that you were not killed.

Have you considered paying a man to stay at your house when you are home?

My general rules for ammo:

1-Keep your gun loaded with something...
2-Use ratshot for varmints and stuff...
3-Watch Paul Harrel to see how ammo performs in your specific platform. Pick what Paul recommends, or what you can get under Democratic Presidencies.

Got a chuckle out of that, thanks!

Depends, apartment complex, maybe not.

Rural, possibly. 230 in a 45, why not it’s worked for decades. 40 and a flat point 👍, 9mm and a flat point 👍

4- stock up on your preferred carry round(s) and you will never have to worry about #3.

Ball is for economic practice.

I found the comment about the 2 bad guys running away when they heard the slide racked in a home defense gun interesting..... isnt a home defense gun supposed to be ready to shoot. That second or two to rack it can be deadly.

Why the hell would you need to rack the slide on your go to gun in your home?

Now do some of you understand why I suggested that he should pay a man to be in his home when he's there

My handguns are loaded w expanding ammo, but nothing elaborate,
Bullets are ball shaped.
Feeding has been 100% (Sig, HK and Colt).

Maybe he has kids, and for that reason has decided to keep the loaded mag outside the gun. I've heard of people doing this. Wouldn't be my choice, of course.

the first time that i ever fired centerfire firearms was courtesy of uncle sam in 1972. he gave me plenty of fmj ball ammo, gratis. it worked. i have never bought one round of anything else since, with the exception of 38sp wadcutters. anything else is a gimmick. this is my story and i’m sticking to it, ymmv, cheers.

They damn well wouldn't have heard me rack the slide.

I never wrote that I carried hardball, only that it could be a viable alternative in some situations as a discussion topic. Up until a couple of weeks ago, while I have hundreds of hardball 9mm, I couldn't even find 9mm HST Federal ammo. Yeah, back in 2013 I was a heck of a lot more trusting and unprepared than I am now. Kids and loaded guns around the house wasn't an option. The detective told me the same thing that had I been prepared, the WI. Castle Doctrine would have justified lethal force. Lots of false bravado on here, but in the real world bad guys do depend on good people not being prepared for an attack because they think it couldn't happen to me. It can. My kid had a some cash in his room and these guys knew it.

That's because their would have been no need

I was raised with loaded Firearms in the house 🏠

Agree...you're not gonna hear a slide racking until the dogs quit barking and it's time to reload, in my house anyways...

"I never wrote that I carried hardball, only that it could be a viable alternative in some situations as a discussion topic."


Based on what you are saying, between this statement, and your original post, your intent is to shoot them with hardball ammo, because you just want to hurt them a little bit, but you don't want to possibly kill them.



I am dead serious when I say that you need to unload your firearm and put it away, as it is in your best interest. The application of deadly force is all or nothing. You are either willing to apply deadly force or you are not.

I don't say that to be mean or rude or anything else. I say that as it honestly is in your best interest.


Shooting someone, regardless of if it is loaded with hardball or the latest JHPs is still applying deadly force. You are intentionally applying force that is likely to inflict death or serious physical injury. This nonsense about "Just shoot them in the leg" is exactly that. Poorly informed nonsense.

Unless you are presented with a deadly threat, IE in fear of death or grave bodily injury, you have no business shooting. You can "What if" it to death and carefully create scenarios but that is simply the fact. The laws in most jurisdictions require you to be in fear for your life before you are allowed to shoot someone, and shooting to wound is not part of the picture.


Back to the shooting people in the leg idea.

The legs are filled with veins and arteries and a person can die quite quickly from a leg wound. Everyone knows about the femoral artery, there are a bunch of others such as the tibial artery, saphenous vein, etc. More than I want to type out. Hardball tends to shatter bones. Bone fragments shred veins, arteries and muscle. When that happens, the odds of a guy bleeding out in short order are very high unless you get a tourniquet on the wound, and even then with shattered bones things are sketchy. The odds of losing a leg/limb unless they reach an operating table fairly quickly are also high.




The punchline here is : based on what you have typed and the series of critical thinking errors and being misinformed, you would seriously better off putting your firearm away as it presents more of a liability to you in terms of you getting yourself into massive legal trouble. Put the gun away and go buy a big can of pepper spray. You will be far safer.

I always enjoy Sagebrush's comments. I know that he has earned this knowledge the hard way and I truly respect that.

W. Bill

How would that be? Were they your son's friends? If so, he needs to find new ones. Or, does your son just talk too much?

Coworker killed a guy w ball ammo.
Arm hit. One shot.

Guy didnt die quickly, and was rather vocal about things .
Messed my coworker up

Dude bled out before medical arrived.

Please, for the sake of your family, pay a man to be present when you are at home.

Like I stated earlier, I have lots of gun loaded with non-expanding bullets, but not FMJ. Full wadcutters in 38 and 45.

Ray, I'm sure we would all be in awe at your own ability to fend off three 20 year olds wearing ski masks intent on robbing you. Heck, it only cost me 13 stitches, a permanent scar and a trip to the hospital. Cost the kid $1,400.00 in restitution, four years in jail and six years probation.

Hardball did a number on the krauts and japs in WW1 and WW2. It will work if called upon.

Pistol that resides on my nightstand is a Springfield Armory TRP, with a magazine of 230 hardball, never lost any sleep worrying about if I "had enough gun".

The thought process that ends up with you using deadly force, but choosing less effective ammo when you do so, is flawed.

But, hey, good luck with that.

I should have just read further. This nails it.

I wouldn't have been racking no slide, nor looking for a gun like a set of car keys, that I know for certain.

I have carried many different rounds in my 1911 since 1973. When I found out that the Winchester Silvertip wouldn't penetrate both sides of an empty 55 gallon drum I started using hard cast semiwadcutters, mostly 215 grain gullets from a very old mold. Shot a couple of deer and many smaller animals no problem. One day my father asked to look at my 45, jacked one out and looked at it. He said you going target shooting? I said no that is the round I carry. Why he said? It shoots great, feeds perfectly and the flat nose profile kills better than the hardball load. He said really? His WWII era GI 45 has been loaded with ball ammo forever. I doubt he had ever fired anything else in it. He joined the Army in 1944 going to Okinawa and served in Korea, Vietnam. Mustered out in 1971. Told me he was very impressed with the GI ball ammo. Wouldn't say anymore about it though. If it was good enough for him it is good enough for me. I presently don't own a 45 ACP round loaded with anything other than hardball. My 9mm's are usually loaded with 4-5 hollowpoints and the rest of the magazine gets hardball, figuring if the opposition was still alive they would be behind cover after the first rounds were fired.

I see many here still think that the Gen 1 HPs are the same as the current variety.

I think the arguments about "Which is best?" .45 ACP FMJ or HPs is more academic than practical. Yes, HPs will expand -- usually -- but FMJ bullets have proved themselves very efficient and deadly in untold thousands upon thousands of actual self defense shootings in wars, police shootings, civilian shootings, and even criminal shootings. Also, some very experienced people have no problem with FMJ bullets and carry them in their self defense pistols.

For example, in April of 1981, I attended Jeff Cooper's Gunsite School in Arizona. There were several classroom sessions with Jeff Cooper speaking. One of the students asked him what he carried in his .45? Cooper answered he carried FMJ factory rounds. He said they always worked very well and he'd had personal experience in some dangerous places. He could have carried HPs if he wanted but he preferred the FMJs. In addition to Jeff Cooper, I know that several of the founders of IPSC such as Ray Chapman, Jack Weaver, and Thell Reed used FMJs.

As Mackay Sagebrush said previously, a .45 FMJ does a tremendous amount of damage when hitting bones, and even if it doesn't hit a bone, it still makes a .45" diameter hole. That lets in a whole lotta air which is not good for one's system. As to the lethality of FMJs as opposed to HPs, I doubt that in a down and dirty self defense shooting, IF THE SHOOTER SHOOTS ACCURATELY, I imagine the result will be the same: one bad guy out of commission. I say carry whatever you want but make sure it works perfectly in your pistol. Then practice. A bunch.

So no one will think I'm blowing smoke about being at Gunsite, here I am with Jeff Cooper. I am the extremely handsome young man on his right and a friend of mine from Oregon is on his left. This was about two weeks after Chuck Taylor had left and Clint Smith was there taking his place. Interesting six days, I assure you.

BTW, as others here said, "shooting to wound" is tantamount to begging for criminal charges and civil suits.

FWIW, Jeff Cooper carried his Colt Govt. Model 1911 in a Milt Sparks Yaqui Slide.

what to do if your betta is not eating

L.W.

I don't understand a person asking about less then lethal after getting the crap beat out of him and his family in threat.

Only a true democrat could think that way.

Yep, I knew Cooper carried FMJ. I used to read quite a bit of his material.

Much better than a flyswatter... JMHO..

Chuck Taylor was an interesting guy with a full resume.

Militaries all around the world have been shooting at each other with hard ball ammo for over a hundred years.

Yes....if that’s all that’s available. My father was not impressed with it’s stopping/killing abilities during WWII! memtb

Not with a 9mm or .40 level caliber. I'd hate to shoot through a miscreant and kill some innocent person behind them.

Ron

I mentioned on another thread. We recently shot 16 of 16 rounds of 1100 fps 40 cal 180 gr Berry's flat points through and through a 16 inch diameter Douglas Fir stump.

How many 1/2 inch sheetrock walls is that equivalent to?

While that is not a 45. It is still a point to consider.

I believe Cooper eventually switched to Truncated cone flat points as his preferred bullets. I’ve never shot a person with anything but I have killed a pretty fair amount of game with a handgun and SWCs beat hardball all around.

in refernce to the statements Cooper carried FMJS" how manyw ant to bet that decisionw as largely based on poorly perfroming hollow points of the era, and the propensity for most to not run well in a 1911? How many think Cooper would be carrying FMJs today?

Thugs tried to rob an elderly guy that just got home from hospital.

Think he shot one or both through the door.

First took it on the adams apple
Other at the knee.

240 gr JHP from his deer revolver ( .44.mag ).

First was DRT. Other lost the leg.

I dunno how beefy the old mans door was.

Broke 'em from sucking eggs.

I worked a couple of 44 Mag shootings over the years, one a near contact shot to the chest with a 180 grain Federal JHP from Ruger SBH. It was plenty.

And some awesome shoes...

Eggzackly. Why doesn't someone interview the Germans and Japanese shot by ball ammo in WWII and survey their feelings?

For clarification.

I don't necessarily advocate ball ammo as a top choice for defense. The reason why it is used in some guns is simply because they are older and not throated to properly feed other profiles such as JHPs or SWCs. Your typical 1911s that were in military armories were designed to feed ball ammo, and that was it.

Yes ball is destructive when it hits bone. It also has a tendency to perform poorly when it does not, such as when it only hits muscle. In cases where a good JHP was not available, I would take a SWC profile every time over ball.

I am friends with Ken Hackathorn, which some may or may not be familiar with. Ken worked for Jeff Cooper for quite some time. Much of what is put in print, versus real life, for selling ad copy and bolstering an image can be quite different. There is a public persona then there is the real person.

Ken has stated numerous times that Mr. Cooper carried SWCs in his Colts (when he loaded it himself). However, being that he was in the industry, his favorite ammo was what is known in certain circles as OPA ammo. OPA stands for "Other People's Ammo". That is ammo that is given to you by agencies, departments, companies, etc. The best ammo is free ammo, and quite often, that is what got carried, especially when it was simply going to be shot up on the range at a class. Yes, that often could be ball ammo, simply because that is what agencies bought and brought to training. That is just a little slice of reality.

I have some older 1911s that do not feed JHPs reliably and they get fed ball ammo. However when using a handgun that reliably feeds any profile projectile, I will choose something that is optimal for the situation, such as a good JHP, or heavy hard cast SWC.


This is (if I recall right) a first production year lightweight commander. It prefers ball ammo only.




I would not deliberately handicap myself by loading ball ammo in a gun that fed a better profile, especially for self/home defense purposes.

I have shot big desert jackrabbits when hit with 230 grain ball ammo hump up at the hit, then go running off. If you did not hit anything structural or get a CNS hit, then the ball ammo just zipped right through them. Switching to a good SWC type profile saw an immediate change in results. The sharp profile cuts nice clean holes and causes significant damage in terms of terminal performance. This holds true for much larger animals as well.

Punchline is, if your gun feeds nothing but ball, use it. If it feeds JHPs or SWCs, use those instead.

Are you his Royal Penis Cleaner?

Mackay, in your last two paragraphs when you mention semi-wadcutters are you referring the target type SWC’s like Speer’s tmj bullets, etc. at higher than normal target velocities?

Generally speaking, I rarely use the jacketed version, I am referring to the lead semi wadcutters. Jeff Cooper used to advocate a 200 grain lead semi wadcutter with 7.5 grains of Unique, which in a 5" gun produces about 1,000 FPS.

Regardless of the powder you choose, a good LSWC in that velocity range does great work in terms of terminal performance.

They penetrate quite nicely, feed well in most guns, and tend to be quite accurate.

dla, that is your work...

Usually a little free velocity with the cast bullets too.
I was more curious about the terminal effects of the SWC shape rather than whether they’re jacketed or cast.

The sharp shoulder of the SWC tends to do significantly more damage than round nose/FMJ profiles. With round nose profiles you tend to see narrower wound channels with minimal permanent tearing. The SWC and full wadcutters do substantially more damage while still giving excellent penetration.

I would not feel handicapped at all if I was not able to access jacketed hollow points and had to strictly rely on lead semi wadcutters in .45s. They will absolutely do a great job.

Thanks Mack. I was curious if the SWC would feed properly in the 1911.

I will find a few to purchase for trial in 38 Super and 10mm before purchasing molds.

In my experience the H&G #68 (200 grain LSWC) or a close approximation, loaded to 1.250" OAL, will feed about as slick as hardball in properly speced 1911s.

But not because that's their first choice.

Exactly.

What may have been best back then may not be the best option today.

Do you have a favorite mold?

Thanks Sarge.

You're welcome.

I don't cast. The last batch I ordered was from MO Bullets and they shot & fed real well for me.

https://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=56&category=5&secondary=13&keywords=

Words like ever and never are absolutes.
And should be used carefully.

Yes, I absolutely would "ever" load fmj.
Hell I would load marbles or rocks in a shotgun. If desperate enough.

But I wouldnt pass up good, reliable, expanding ammo for defense.

Cooper was active into the era where the 1911 was available in decent platforms. He also made statements that Hardball produced one-shot stops in 9 out of 10 cases. A couple of studies concluded it was more like 6 out of 10. Certainly in Cooper's heyday, hardball was as good as anything else and certainly more reliable than the platforms of the WWII/Korean War era and about two decades thereafter.

I’m not Mackey but the RCBS 45-200 is what I use and it is a great mold and bullet. I load it over 6gr Unique and shoot it out of a 5” 1911 or a 5” S&W 625. It’ll break both shoulders or both hips and exit on 100lb pigs. When I peeled the hide off the two I shot last week with the 625 they both had a softball sized area of bloodshot around both the entry and exit wounds. I imagine that at higher speeds they would be even more devastating as far as wound channel width.

Yes i do, 230gr Hornady FMJ flat points and 200gr Lehighs in 45 ACP,

140gr Lehighs in 10mm

115gr Lehighs in 357 Sig, 38 Super, and 9mm.

Loaded for two and four leggers, and barriers around house, farm, vehicle.

He's sure spot on with this as well.

I concur with his opinions on this thread. Being a 1911 guy, (pretty much exclusively) for the past 35 years myself, his experience with all the above bullets parallels mine.

I'm not as concerned about FMJ's in a .45 as I would be in .38 or 9mm calibers. Early on in law enforcement I learned that the last thing you really want in a self defense bullet would be a RN FMJ, or a RNL. If you have to use FMJ in a handgun, make it a .45, because comparatively, it's already "expanded" when 200 plus grains hits the target, vs a 158gr or 124 gr round nose .38 round.

While I don't cast (I don't have the time) I do prefer the H&G #68 bevel base as Sarge mentioned above. It is the classic, and pretty much the standard by which all others are judged. I have been using those since the early 90s.

In fact I have a couple coffee cans that I have saved to remind me of the "Good Old Days". There was an old gent who shot out at the Boise Rod and Gun club that cast #68s. He was a legit 3 war vet. He served in World War II, Korea and Vietnam. He would cast a coffee can full of bullets, 1,400 of them for a whopping $30.



My buddy Jim, who is the co-owner at the Milt Sparks Holsters shop would pick a number of cans up from him when he was shooting bullseye with the old gent.

I have kept these cans for about 25 years now under my bench just to remind me of how good we had it at one time.

Today there are a number of makers who produce a similar bullet as it is one of the most popular bullets made for the .45 and for good reason. It is perfect for target work, hunting, whatever and you can load it up or down the scale, velocity wise.

I load for some folks locally here (as well as not so locally) and will probably do a run of 200 grain SWCs pretty soon. Maybe this next week here, but I have to get some 10mms and .38s done first.

Gotta catch up with the .44s first.

While I don't hunt pigs, your observation about the terminal effects mirrors my own in shooting Mule Deer and coyotes, various livestock and similar size animals.

Good information!!

Back when I was casting, I used the older RCBS 45-201KT bullet, it was a fuzzy bit more blunt than the current bullet (wider meplat), and it had a flat base, no bevel. I used them with 7.0 Unique, or 5.4gr. AA#2, or 5.8 231, depending on the timeframe. I used them for IPSC shooting, and had good results with them at the '89, '90, and '91 Nationals. IIRC, they chrono-ed at about 975fps, which was a bit more than necessary, but they sure smacked pepper poppers down hard. I still have about 1500 or so of those loads and use them for general, all-around shooting and fooling around.
I also used an NEI bullet the 452-205N, a truncated cone bullet that weighed 205gr. with wheelweights, Sierra brought out a Tournament Master bullet that was very similar to that one, in 200gr., but I never bothered to try them. They needed a bit more powder to reach the same velocity, so I didn't use them too much, but they were good shooters, too.

I have enough of those loaded that I rarely bother to search out and buy HPs or even ball ammo, for that matter. I have a lot of faith in them. A big meplat is probably about as good as even the newer HPs.

Ball ammo in 9mm and in .45 is all I carry.

No, but I wish to help you make the right choice. This is modern state of the art design that is affordable to buy.....

I use the flat point ball for plinking, practice, and carry. A decent meplat will do some damage. 230s for me in my 1911s and P-220. Be Well, RZ.

Carry Ball in my 9mm and my 1911's.

Keep your opinions. You load your guns, I'll load mine.

Yeah, we got that the first 1/2 dozen times you said it.

I prefer self defense ammo. But in these times , mainly I use LSWC. Missouri coated to be exact. The last thing I shot at the range is probably loaded in my pistol. Hasbeen

Windfall: No!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

I guess it is like the old adage, what is the best pistol to have in a gun fight.........the one you have on you.

If hardball is what you have, sure but not my first choice.

If I had a .45, I wouldn't be super happy about only having FMJ, but I would be alright....probably.

If I had a 9mm, and only had FMJ... well, let's just say I'd be glad to have a magazine full of 17 of them....

Thank you gentlemen. I appreciate the advice on the cast bullets.

Had to charge his phone up to call 911?

You have to remember, there is a difference between incapacitation and lethality. If you read this study, you'll discover that not only did 9mm match the effectiveness of .40S&W, .45ACP, and even .44 Magnum (stopping people); but unlike those calibers, more than half of the 400-500 people shot with 9mm were shot with FMJ rounds. In my opinion, this is the real reason why the military went with 9mm. FMJ can be very effective in a .355" caliber which, all things being equal, penetrates less than larger/heavier rounds (thus reducing the risk of over penetration and wasting energy). https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power.

So yes, I would carry FMJ in 9mm if I couldn't afford HP or Lehigh Defense/Underwood XD rounds (my preference).

Well you were right, it's now up to 6. But, have you studied many big time police shootouts? Speaking of missing. 😁

The switch to 9mm was due to logistics primarily. But they definitely very much liked the big increase in barrier penetration you get with a 124g NATO round over a .45 ACP hardball.
In hardball the 9mm isn't quite as effective in tissue than the .45, but it has better penetration, and barrier penetration; and it's easier to hit with.

I believe Ed Brown recommends hardball....I'm with him with .45 ACP all you need is Hardball

Ed Brown builds guns. He wants his guns to run reliably and hardball is the surest way to accomplish that. Fewer customer issues for him. I don't know what his qualifications are in the self defense forensic area.

Pre cell phone, out a ways, took meds a while to arrive.

9mm Buffalo Bore Outdoorsman 147 grain lead semi-wadcutter design. Feral hogs are common to abundant around here, where nobody shoots them they ain’t sufficiently wary of people. Birdwatching gets me out in the woods. Had a big boar one time stand and snort and huff at me for a while from about 20 yards out, unwilling to give way.

I figure the odds of me having to shoot an ornery hog are about the same as having to shoot a person. Not very great, and the load will prob’ly work on either.

Birdy.

Its not an SWC. Its a truncated cone flat point. I load the exact same bullet ("The Outdoorsman) made by Rimrock to the same velocity. I use them as both a predator load and a load for around vehicles if need be, since it penetrates in feet rather than inches.



I swapped out my factory spring for an extra power Wolff recoil spring though as an added safety margin though, as it is a higher end load. In fact I was carrying it last fall when I was packing out an elk and had a Mountain Lion on my back trail. The big cat had been following my tracks as I was packing out quarters in a steep brushy draw.

MS, do you load and sell that 147 gr load?

Well at least I know I made a smart decision, re:woods carry anyway.

Ya wouldn’t think it but I’ve come up on mountain lions here twice at night, tho never actually seen one.

There’s a large city park that adjoins Camp Bullis Military Training Area on the far North Side of San Antonio. lions are regularly sighted on Bullis.

There’s enough light scatter around San Antonio that you can see well enough to walk the trails on the darkest nights, even where you can’t see any city lights (this is a major training problem on Bullis). I have walked those trails, sometimes in the dark, for about 20 years now, without using a flashlight.

The first lion, I was hiking back there with my Ex and two heelers, off leash as usual. Low throaty growl straight off of Animal Planet not far uphill in the woods, repeated a few moments later further along. I went in the next day and found where it had torn up a sapling, shredded the bark and marked, stank of cat pee.

The second one was some years later, sudden thrashing about off in the cedar woods, accompanied by a high thin bleating, abruptly cut off. It was most likely a deer bleating, couldn’t have been more’n 40 or 50 yards off. The next day the park was closed for a week due to a mountain lion sighting.

Both occasions the dogs just stood and listened, they had been taught not to chase wildlife.

Good idea about the springs, my old Gen 2 Glock 19 is prob’ly overdue.

They are good loads Mike. I carry the same in my Ruger LCP 380 for penetration.

Like Mackay mentioned, it’s a truncated cone flat point bullet.
Better than a SWC bullet.

It was also the grizzly load in the Ruger LC9 on my Yellowstone bicycle expedition a couple of years back

I will be selling some of the 147 "Predator Penetrator" loads when I get another big batch of new brass in. Also by then I expect that the e-commerce site will be up and you can order direct. I have been so dang busy this last year that I have not had time, so I finally paid a professional outfit to put one together for me.

In testing I found it is pretty impressive against auto glass, sheet metal/car doors etc. When we were having all those problems with the Socialists/Communists dragging people from cars and rioting everywhere, I started carrying these 147 grain loads.

I don't know if other outfits recommend it but I would suggest either a brand new factory recoil spring or an extra power one. Almost every single person's gun (using Glocks as an example) I have inspected has had a spring that, while it cycled the pistol just fine, it definitely needed replaced. Most don't know how to check, or when to replace and don't track rounds.

I myself rarely keep a close track of round counts since I don't shoot competitions like I did when I was shooting in USPSA all the time.


Here is a brick simple short video on how to check and see if you need to replace your recoil spring assembly (RSA).


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8OBMXbNGfbA&t=0s

Personally I buy multiple RSAs at once, that way I always have a new one on hand and a spare ready to go, in case the end of the plastic rod gets chipped. broken, or whatever.



I used to tell people I could either repair 1 Glock 20 times or 20 Glocks, but in case of panic or civil issues, I would not be dependent on anyone.

Thanks, I'll check out the video and keep an eye out for info on your website.

Those aren't a truncated cone (as developed by the Germans close to the inception of the 9mm Parabellum), but are LBT FN designs.
FWIW.
Most SWC automatic handgun cast bullet designs ARE truncated cone bullets patterned after the original German 9mm jacketed TC bullet. They differ only in having a full diameter shoulder and under diameter nose cone, but the nose profile is a truncated cone, not a rounded ogive as pictured.
A TC bullet will be exactly what it is, a truncated, cone shape from the bearing band to the nose. Nothing truncated about a round nose, flat point bullet, ever. You can have a truncated cone on a SWC as a nose profile. A rounded, truncated cone does not exist in the cast bullet mould world, period. A cone isn't rounded.

Hawk,

You might want to educate all the cast bullet and jacketed bullet manufacturers then. It would appear they have been labeling things wrong for decades. Same with all the ammo manufacturers.

Hawk is right except where he states,

"Nothing truncated about a round nose, flat point bullet, ever."




If a rnfp wasn't truncated, it would continue the radius and be...roundhouse.

But it ain't a cone either.

But it's all semantics.

A muzzleloader projectile system isn't a "Say-Bo" its a "Sah-Bot".
Except, common use is Wrong. I just roll with it.

I like a round nose flat point with the biggest 'flat' I can get. And the bigger the diameter, the better.

Its all good.

Its like when people call any 240 SWC a "Keith" bullet. The true Keith was not really optimal for high volume production. what most cast bullet manufacturers advertise as a Keith are slightly modified. Keiths are flat based, and have square cut grease grooves. Most commercial production versions are bevel based with rounded grooves to make things easier. Performance wise, as far as I have ever seen in the field, there really isnt any, but its enough to give some of the armchair theorists something to carry on about.

I doubt the current American manufacturers like Winchester were worried about the German historical correctness when they labeled their 115 grain 9mm a "full metal jacket truncated cone".



Hawk made me smile when he mentioned the Germans though, considering we are talking about the 9mm.

For some reason I immediately thought of Smokey and the Bandit!




I am going to load some more of the smashy nosey thingys into some C260 (that's The stuff some boomy stuff in there

After I shove some mini land mines into the ass end of some C260 (That is the specific type of brass used in cartridge brass) I am going to fill the things with this magic meat tenderizer I have gallons of laying around, then top it with some smashy nosey things.

Excepting around the outside.

https://www.vectorstock.com/royalty-free-vector/truncated-cone-outline-icon-vector-32488014

Yep. They are outstanding performers on hogs and deer!

Mac, what velocity are you loading those 9mm 147 gr. penetrators at?

FWIW, all I’ve ever shot with a .45ACP was a couple of trapped hogs. One big boar (about 250lb, big for around here) was a headshot that went in between his eyes and out the bottom of his neck. Death was instantaneous (obviously), but that bullet had to go through a LOT of skull (in and out) brain, and muscle.

The surprise was the 150lb. pig that I shot dead through the shoulders. .45 entrance, nickel sized exit out the far shoulder, and warped the ground stone dead. It hammered him. I figured out why Jeff Cooper liked it.

Both were done at about 12’ with an h&g68 over 6.3 grains of H Universal for 950fps. Not a big cross section of big bore pistol performance, but it made me a believer.

I need to lay hands on batch of those Rimrock 9mm’s. Been running Lee 125 TC’s, those would step my 365 up a notch.

I have a SWC mold for 9mm that throws a 135gr bullet with a pretty good flat nose on it. Nice thing is it’ll even feed in an unmodified 1960’s vintage BHP. I load them to 1000fps or so as they shoot to the sights and are accurate with no leading.

Turning once again to my most used test media, pigs, I’ll say that they are markedly less effective than my normal 200gr SWC 45 load. They’ll penetrate and they’ll kill even big ones but they don’t slap them like the bigger bullets. Still better than 115 hardball.

Sagebrush,

Sorry for being anal retentive about the bullet description; THIS is a cast duplicate of the original 9mm Maxim/Parabellum projectile (truncated cone) of the WWI era. For us gun cranks, calling every muzzleloading projectile a Minie bullet gets irksome too!

Like you stated, the Semi-wadcutter has also been bastardized over the years.

This is the 9mm bullet I was talking about above. It’s a Lyman mold but without going out to the shop I can’t recall which one. I need to cast and lube some when it cools down, I’m getting low on 9mm.

Hawk, is it true that the original Parabellum bullet design was changed due to it’s tendency to tumble and yaw on impact, making it a no no for military use at the time? I’ve always wanted a Lyman 356402 because I’d heard that but never bought one, straight penetration is better for my field gun uses anyway.

Kid,

I believe that was the alleged reasoning, but having used the design (not in 9mm) on 3-4 deer in a slug sabot I used to handload, it was probably because the flat, even fairly small, worked much better terminally than the round noses and deflected less as well. At least what I have seen with my own use.
It also fed pretty slick.
It was by no accident that the 9mm was a pretty speedy round for that time and any terminal bullet improvement was evident. It became a mediocre round when saddled with a round nose.

Your bullet above is what is classified as a SWC; it is due to the shoulder, but the nose is cone shaped, lacking a radiused nose and has a nice flat meplat.

It really varies depending on the gun. I have shot them in everything from S&W Shields and G19s to CZ -75s to long barreled G34s. The G34 will give you 1100 FPS.

Its all good Friend!

Lots of stuff today is not referred to by its original name.

Something new very day. Original TC bullets in the Luger? I thought wait a minute, I got the 6 shells that came out of my dads bring back Luger, circa 1945. Pointy round nose.

This thread led me to a search. Sure nuff, the Germans started with a TC(tapered flat point as I've called it to avoid confusion) but replaced it with the pointy RN FMJ by the late teens. I can't paste pics but think we would all like the modern versions more than the original that in it self was pretty pointy, a very small meplat.

FWIW and prob’ly known here already, Buffalo Bore tests their loads in various real-world firearms. Scroll down for their findings in different handguns.

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=388

For a Makarov carried, yes. For the same reason the hard cast, full charge wadcutters are in the Airweight 38, remain unsure about the expansion of expanders traveling at the velocities of these pistols.

That's a whole other topic. Full profile wadcutters in a revolver have a stellar reputation in actual usage for deep straight penetration, and with their sharp profile tend to do a good bit of damage along the way. To this day, many don't know that 95% of the JHPs on the market will not expand when fired out of a snubby such as a J Frame with their 1&7/8th"barrel. They in effect become like a round nose bullet and terminal performance is poor generally. Even standard target wadcutters do a much better job from a J Frame, than the typical .38 hollowpoint, unless that load is loaded extremely hot, which then you run into control issues for most people.

I too, often carry wadcutters for my initial load in my old 442, but then use a reload with a bullet profile that is more conducive to fast loading from a speedloader.






Looking at the above pics I realize that my old pocket companion is getting a bit on the worn side. Kind of like its owner.

I carry 147 FP FMJ in my Gersan Regard 9mm at times.
If I had to shoot a threat, I would shoot it until it was no longer a threat.

I always carried the Buffalo Bore Hard Cast Wadcutters in the last J-frame I pocket carried. With a speed loader full of Gold Dot HP’s for ease of reload.

I also carried the Buffalo Bore .44 cal Hard Cast Wadcutters the CA Bulldog I cared for a little while.
They were wicked jackrabbit killers.

I still have 158 grain plusP LSWHP (lead semi wadcutter hollowpoints) in my Airweight j-frame. Same load for the last thirty years.

On the speed strip I have the same thing in Federal Nyclads which I believe have been out of production for a good while. I like the Nyclads because they don’t shed lead in a pocket. Tho I’ll confess I haven’t bothered carrying a reload much.

IIRC fixed sight S&W .38 revolvers are regulated for the standard velocity 158 grain load. PlusP’s ain’t much hotter than that.

9mm Heat Treated 124 Truncated Cone and its WWI revolver opponent, the British 380 aka the 38 Smith and Wesson sporting a pure lead ogival wadcutter 150 grain.

I would never consider hardball ammo in my defense gun. I would use what the police use. Hardball also presents a risk to others in home thru penetration or an innocent bystander if the bullet passes thru. God forbid anyone has to defend themselves in a self defense situation but if you have to, to save your life or the life of innocents you want SD ammo to stop the threat. Case closed.

Any real stats on that actual phenomenon?

When one considers the modern police have used solids longer than anything else deemed "safe", the issue is less reality and more pipe dream.

Wouldn’t shooting hardball for defense be just like someone shooting hard cast for hunting on thin skin game.
Sure hard cast has probably killed more game then HP’s over the past 100 years. But don’t good HP’s do it better and faster?
When your life is on the line I would choose good HP’s every time.

The 4 inch Kimber 45 Auto on my hip, as I type this, is loaded with a 230 +/- grain cast bullet, #2 alloy, with a meplat of the same diameter as the Saeco 058 bullet.
Other times my 45 Autos are loaded with Winchester Win1911 or Winchester USA Ready 230 grain FMJFP load.

What's the per round cost of Federal HST?

What's the cost of a round of handloaded hard cast?

Virtually no civilians who carry high priced defensive ammo actually practices with the same stuff they carry.

The same can't be said for guys who shoot hard cast.

I like the grips; easier to see in a hurry if you have set the gun down somewhere. I dunno how many seconds accumulating into minutes and hours of my life have been wasted searching for black objects around the house, fortunately chiefly cellphones and wallets at this point, and never a handgun in an emergency.

In the same way, wanna lose or forget something in the woods? Get it in RealTree.

Lotta of interesting comments on the topic. In my home their are no loved ones to worry about. They get by my dog they get lead until the threat is gone. Mb

Probably only in something under powered like a .22, .25 or .32 for greater penetration. Logic says that I wouldn't be using any of those for defense anyway because my defensive stuff starts with a .380 and goes to a .38 Special +P, 9mm and .45 and none of them are loaded with hardball ammunition.

Have carried it in duty pistols/revolvers.

I prefer something expanding nowadays, but wouldn't fret much if FMJ was all that were available.

I believe the one-shot stopping stats are somewhere in the low 60% range for 9mm and 45ACP FMJ. That is still lethal.....and who only shoots one??

Yeah, yeah, there are some over-penetration concerns in some situations, but nothing is perfect.

Overpenetration would be the last thing that I would worry about. Misses would be a bigger concern in my opinion

I don't make defense decisions based on perceived motives behind an attackers actions.

Matters not if it's just a confused alkie, dopehead, or some guy angry from a domestic encounter. All that matters is whether or not his actions endanger self or loved ones.

To intentionally shoot a person when you don't fear death or great bodily harm is a crime. I can't make the decision to shoot someone who is annoying or bothersome, and to load a weapon based on this potential happenstance would indicate criminal intent.

Of topic but it might interest some western Montana guys. Anyway we stopped by a pawn shop in Anaconda Montana Saturday, there was a jem of a Colt revolver in there for 650. It was a snub.

Did you get it?

No. That would be incorrect. All hardcast bullets are not shaped like hardball/FMJ ammo.

From a terminal ballistics standpoint, they behave substantially different. Where a FMJ/Hardball bullet tends to slip through causing substantially less permanent tissue damage as compared to other types, various hardcast projectiles do significantly more damage, depending on their shape.

A wide flat meplat such as on this 250 grain 45 ACP Flat Point tends to do quite a bit more damage, as well as penetrate deeper.:



In fact I was in bear country this last weekend (lots and lots of bears around.) and was carrying the 250 grain +p 45 ACPs.




Plus kept a 10MM close at hand for a nightstand gun due to the fact I could put a light on it, since we had a bear that kept pooping right outside the door, every few hours.

I was using a 200 grain hardcast flatpoint in the 10MM:



Semi Wadcutters also do substantially more damage than an FMJ. The tend to cut nice deep clean holes in flesh and do significant damage, as opposed to just slipping through like ball does. Ball can and does break bone when it hits it, but so does a hardcast bullet.

There is a reason why the very vast majority of dedicated handgun hunters use hardcast bullets on big game.

That 150 grain wadcutter is a cool looking sucker. With modern powders, in a strong gun, you could make that sing!

Nope, I am a ND resident.

Never, eh?

I'd load up my G17 or M&P with 17+1 of NATO spec ball and feel fine if it's all I had.

But, I have a bunch of +P HST, so I don't.

That's sorta it right there. If that's all you have, use it. But if you can get JHP, there's no reason to. If your gun doesn't function with anything but FMJ, I'd get another gun. Also, I consider FMJ and HC to be two entirely different things.

Sgt Thrumond Rucker, US Army, Hedge rows, D Day took out two German machine guns nests with grenades, then proceeded to take out three more machine gun nests with his 45 Acp. ON one nest, he crawled in front of the nest with the machine gun firing, when they ran dry and had to re load, he grabbed the machine gun by the barrel with his coat in hand, pulled it forward, and killed all Germans in the nest with his 45. Std Rucker received the Silver Star for his efforts.

John Burns, Korea 1950, US Army. First on the line, transferred from Japan at the first of the war. John told me that a 45 ACP would knock a man down if hit in the hand. John survived the massive Chinese Waves and was involved in a lot of hand to hand combat.

Both of these men told me that a man shot with a 45 at close range rarely required a second shot.

Another WWII vet gave me a German Lugar, and I showed it to Sgt Rucker, he did not think much of it, preferring the 45 acp. Sgt Rucker told me that the Germans were scared to death of a Thompson machine gun.

"John Burns, Korea 1950, US Army. First on the line, transferred from Japan at the first of the war. John told me that a 45 ACP would knock a man down if hit in the hand."

.45 ACP would knock a man down if it hit in the hand... Oh boy!

I expect there’s a typo as IIRC the 380 British and the Enfield revolvers that used it weren’t adopted until 1927.

The original load was a 200gr LRN at around 650fps which the Brits felt was near equivalent to the soft lead hollow based 265gr bullet in the .455 Webley. I’m recalling the feeling was that the long 200gr bullet tumbled on impact.

Reading around I did come across an account of where an American Cop felled a fleeing felon with one shot in the back from that 200gr load in his .38 S&W (near equivalent to the 380 Brit) at 75 yards, so the load did have its adherents.

Hard to believe the Brits, who had such long experience with effective revolvers and who’s Revolver School in their army training was so much more practical than ours, would adopt a dud load.

In the actual event we never found out, in accordance with the Geneva Convention they switched to a 180gr FMJ at that same anemic velocity prior to WWII wihich was regarded as ineffective.

A British Korea Veteran told me they used to prefer 9mm ball in their .380 Enfield revolvers even though they wouldnt extract, I dunno the truth of it.

Remington used to sell a 200gr LRN .38 Special (or .357 mag??) load, I tried them in a Mod 60 but the bullets pulled under recoil.

Birdy, There was also a commercial 200 grain LRN 38 S&W ctg marketed as the "38 S&W Super Police"

Or something along those lines.

Correct, that particular round wasn't a standard British service round, yet.

But the 38 S&W did see use in WW1, simply because Smith M&Ps saw use in WW1.

Hell, Smith No. 3s were used in WWI!

Yes my grandfather had some of those when he passed. I shot them out of a 6" 38 spcl they were extremely slow. I would aim and fire and there was a pause before the bullet impacted.

Yeah, that's BS. We had a customer come off our range holding his hand with a bloody paper towel. We at first thought he'd gotten major league slide bite. Then he told us that he was checking to see if his laser was working and stuck his left hand in front of the gun. For some unknown reason, he then pulled the trigger and put a .45 FMJ though the palm of his hand. It sure didn't knock him down. In fact, it didn't seem to affect much other than his pride.

Well that got me scrambling for my S&W reference book. If I were King I’d have S&W bring back the i frame (smaller than the j frame) as an Airweight but this time in 9mm or 9mm Federal, that would be the ultimate snubbie.

Wasn’t that close to the Smith 547?

The 547 was a K. The I was slightly smaller than a J.

Shorter cylinder by a significant amount, as allowed by the shorter cartridge. The J cylinder is longer to accommodate the longer .38 Special cartridge.

In the mid 90’s when they introduced .357 Magnums into j frames at the same time they did a major rework by doing away with the hammer-mounted firing pin and introducing a transfer bar ignition, they made ALL j-frame cylinders, irrespective of caliber, at the longer yet again .357 Magnum length. IIRC the frames across the board were made slightly longer too.

I was sorry to see it, fractions of an inch do matter in a pocket carry gun.

32 H&R....but I like your thinking!

The longer cylinders are wasted, simply because the 357 nuts in those guns. More oomph should be translated into heavier bullets.

MS,
Thank you for all you advise on this thread.
Now that we can find molds again, I have something similar to this on the way for the .45.

Thanks again.

Given the same caliber, weight, and velocity, what is the difference in terminal performance between:

1. FMJ-FP and HC-FP
2. FMJ-RN and HC-RN

In other words, if neither projectile is going to expand and they are the same exact shape, why is a HC held in such high regard while a FMJ so disparaged?

Brainwashing by ammo/bullet manufacturers and their shills.

In that slightly awkward time between 18 and 21 when I could own a handgun but not purchase ammunition for it from a store, I carried 230-grain FMJ (or sometimes even cast handloads!) in my 1911 as I could scrounge it up from friends. It beat the hell out of a knife or sharp stick, but I've since graduated to Federal HST.

My point exactly about cast non expanding and fmj non expanding. Sure a flat point might have a slight advantage on breaking a bone over a fmj but both are basically non expanding bullets.
If that’s all I had I’d use either and they’d both kill. But I’ll stick to HP’s for my main self defense loads. Preferably gold dots.

I have a little auto that jams with HP ammo so I shoot round nose out of it .

I load hard ball in my 9x18 CZ 82 that my wife prefers as her pistol. It out shot everything else at her concealed carry class. She’d probably kick my azz in a match if she used the CZ. The hard ball is the best way to assure good penetration with the 9x18.

Get a new gun.

Hey Vince, have you tried the Hornady XTP's? They have a longer profile nose than say, some of the gold dots. The Gold dots wouldn't feed reliably through an Officer's model 1911 that I have, but the XTP's feed fine.