Been thinking about this and I know there are pro's and con's to it. I took a Red Dot class the other day and at the end of it, I am wondering if I really want to go down that road.
I will say that if I did go down that road, it would take a lot more work on my part to get where I would feel good about carrying with one, and I understand that.

My questions is what do y'all think about it and how many use a red dot on EDC?

I have a Holosun on my P365XL and absolutely love it.

I recently purchased a P365XL with the Sig Romeo Zero optic in it. With my aging eyes it's a real help. Thinking about replacing the Romeo Zero with a Holosun 507K.

Ron

My nephew is a cop, and he switched to one on his service gun a couple of years ago. He says he'd never go back. Personally, I cannot see it. I don't want to learn to become dependent on technology that requires a charged battery.

I have run red dots for years on other guns and love them. That being said, I have had a bunch of them fail. Yes the very first one was a cheap red dot but after that I learned and never bought cheap again, but have had at least 4 or 5 crap the bed. I will say a shotgun with a heavy turkey load is ruff on them.

That said, I can defiantly shoot tighter groups at longer distance with the red dot on my pistols but at 7 yards and in, not much difference. That is why I am wondering about them. I know we never know when or at what distance we may have to use our EDC but for 7 and in I see irons working just fine. at 10 I am a little tighter with the red dot but still ok with irons. It is at about 15 and longer that the real difference shows up.

And only a tiny percentage of defensive shootings by civilians take place at 15 yards and further distances.

They don't make sense. While I love my RDS on my AR, trying to extend the range of a puny handgun is a waste of time.

I get it that man-boys want to feel better about their limp little 9mms, but at some point millennial and genZ gamers need to understand that a handgun is really a short range defensive weapon.

But hey, people buy the Judge & Governor too.

I'd bet against me adding a RDS to a carry gun, but if I did it wouldn't to improve distance accuracy - it would be to improve precision at any distance. Getting a shot past a hostage, between a door and frame, or a 100 other short range scenarios that are more likely than a 50-yarder, especially in low light.

I get it that man-boys want to feel better about their limp little 9mms, but at some point millennial and genZ gamers need to understand that a handgun is really a short range defensive weapon.


As said in above post.. i agree If said bad guy is more than 15 yards i probably will try and get out of dodge. I'm pretty good at 15 yards and closer but beyond that, not so good.

It reminds me of the whole "I shot iron sights on my M16" stuff back in the day.

I came kicking and screaming into modern day AR optics, but I came nonetheless.

Same will happen with handguns. I don't have an optic on my carry gun, but I have a few guns with them, and it's faster and more accurate. Presentation on the draw takes some work, but that translates well to iron sighted pistols, so it's time we'll spent on your fundamentals

I bought an X slide (optics cut) for my P365 so I could try it and see if I liked it better than the iron sights.
There is a transitional learning curve to acquiring the dot quickly. Lots of dry practice helped and I'm liking it.

I put an RMR on my 1911 for a range toy and yes, I can shoot it more accurately than with the factory irons. That said, an edc piece would be a defensive draw from concealment and a red dot sticking up just gives me one more thing to snag on the way out. When I do carry it is a pocket carry J-frame .38 Special or CZ 9mm and I've been happier with a set of Dawson fiber optic after market sights on the CZ as my first choice.

Once an individual gets past the learning curve he’s absolutely correct.
You’re not dependent on technology, assuming you set your gun up correctly. Suppressor sights with the dot and one has the best of both worlds. If the dot goes down, you shoot the same way you have for decades.

George

I don't use one for any of my CCW pistols. I have no thoughts on what others might want, or not want, or why, either way

IMO they would be more valuable to police officers who may need to shoot out to 50 yards or even more. I don't see the typical civilian having the need to shoot that far and still be able to consider it self defense. Not that it couldn't happen, but I expect it would be quite rare.

I train w/ a group that contains a couple of guys that deal w/ bad guys for a living. They all have RDS on their work and off duty guns. If I were not so old and lazy I would put in the work. All the reasons not to use one are excuses. Kind of like defending your snubby by proclaiming your enhanced situational awareness skills.

Read NH K9's and Goalie's posts... several times.

If you think you are good enough you are wrong.



mike r

Mike,
Funny you'd reference the snubby........I had to be dragged away from my J-frame for EDC (it'll still go for the ride from time to time), and from there had to be shown the light on the optic for my 320. I'm making it my goal to have them on all our duty guns before I pull the pin

George

Not likely to happen but IF a bad guy was shooting at you from 50 yards, wouldn't you shoot back? And wouldn't that be considered self defense all things equal? Parking lots, malls, Walmart, churches, schools, about anywhere in rural areas around farms, campsites, boat ramps and the like has 50+ yard possibilities. I see and hear of guys that never practice with their defensive handgun past 7-10 yards and wonder what they are thinking. Hell even my snubby S&W 642 rings steel at 50 yards and further about every range trip.

I put the 507K on my P365 and I like it a lot.
It was my first handgun RDS so I have no comparison.
I read the reviews and went with the Holosun.

Your 642 may ring steel at 50 yeards, but not too many can do that. Personally if someone was even pointing a gun at me from 50 yards I would seek cover. Usually there are a fair number of vehicles in parking lots. I'm pretty sure I could hit someone from 50 yards, but unless a bullet went zinging by me, it's hard to know if it's me they are shooting at or someone I haven't seen. I'm not looking for an opportunity to shoot someone. I would vastly prefer avoiding that situation.

I didn't say I wouldn't seek cover first before defending myself. Nor did I say I was looking for an "opportunity" to shoot someone. What I did say was that if someone were shooting at me from longer distances than the 7 yards you mentioned that I would recognize that as an attack and be prepared to deal with it.

. True…. At 50yards your claim of self defense is suspicious in a lot of cases.

I never saw anyone excel at anything in life by striving to be good at "average."

You don't get to pick the time, place, number of assailants, or distance.

But, I guess training is harder than buying "stuff"

The main advantage of a dot sight is they are faster than iron sights. That has been proven 💯% by competitors

If someone shoot at you or points a firearm at you you are in danger of great bodily harm or death. Distance has zero to do with it.

Couldn't there be momentary confusion as you raise the gun up and there's no dot?

Only if you allow there to be. Rapid engagement should be your only thought

I'm at the point that a new dot is just budgeted into the cost of a new carry gun. I don't see any reason to not have one. With the caveat that on a carry gun it HAS to be a quality dot. Not a justasgoodas dot or a dot "to try it out and see how I like it".

As far as the distances people are mentioning, for the most part they're wrong. With a dot I can shoot KDF's hat qual in about 15 seconds (10 shots, 25 yards, 90 or better on a B8). At 15 yards it's much faster. For the people who are just going to "run away" from a threat at or beyond 15 yards....Where are you going to run? If I'm hitting a 6" circle every 1-1.5 seconds at that distance, where do you think you'll be able to go? The answer is somewhere with a bullet in you. And I'm not particularly fast or accurate.

And 15 yards is not unreasonable. In my home I can see exterior doors from 40' in four places. That's not uncommon if you go measure homes built in the last 10 years.

I've found that a dot isn't any slower up close. At 15-25 yards I can make the same shots that I can with irons in about half the time. And beyond that a dot basically doubles the distance I can make a particular shot. What I can do at 25 with irons I can do at 50 with a dot.

I've had dots go down on my in a match twice. And I did experience a pause because I was trying to find a dot that didn't exist. And then I shot the rest of the stage with no dot and no irons, and no penalties. With practice you can just look through the glass and shoot where the dot should be and be surprisingly accurate. In fact, in our MRDS class we have a drill with the optic completely occluded (tape over the front lens and the dot turned off). With no sights and no window I can shoot very aggressively with A Zone hits to 7 yards and my A Zone hits at 10 yards are about 80%.

I haven't had the misfortune to run into that yet (I'm pretty OCD about changing batteries), but my 'gut' answer is 'no'.
If the dot is absent, I still have the traditional sight picture that's been there for decades. I need to qual with my off-duty carry (has an optic) this week. I'll have the instructor set up that scenario to see if I phuque up or am.noticeably slower

Red dots are here to stay and will only become more prevalent. That being said, it is a different animal from irons. If you’ve been at it a while,it’s gonna take work to change your focal plane and clean up your presentation. If you’re not willing to put in the work, they are not for you. If you are, the benefits are worth the effort.

Agreed.
The only 'area' I'm still holding out on is my 'beating around the woods' gun that gets thrown in the bed of my Gator when I'm working around my place or in my kit bag (then hung up on a limb, thrown in the truck, etc) when I'm off at the family property logging, wandering, etc. It's also my bear hunting handgun (just in case, after the 45-70 has done its work)

That's just a 'basic bitch' Sig 320 (.45 acp) that replaced a G21 (that's in the same role for my son now).

Same as a malfunction. Training > stuff

Yep

By a Glock and eliminate that possibility, LOL.

Rationalizing not having to take a long shot is assuming you can predict the nature of the fight. If there is an opportunity to stop an active shooter from killing folks and you are not up to the task that is on you. It takes hard work to become competent and few are willing to make the effort.


mike r

Honestly, I’d wager that most shooters probably can’t take advantage of the increased accuracy potential anyway. People who don’t see a gunman at 15 yards as a threat probably feels that way because he can’t hit at 15 himself.

Aiming with 3.25MOA precision doesn’t help with a 50MOA trigger press

I don’t have one at the moment but I’m sure that I will transition to one in the future.

I do not see a problem in trying one out. Alibaba probably has good quality units for $60+/-10. You will save a great deal bypassing US companies that market those products here. The only disadvantage I see is use of batteries in them. I will not use one because I do not have a handgun set up for mounting one and at defensible distances with a handgun I do not need one. Defensible means distance short enough to be able to claim self-defense scenario.

Every time I think you couldn't be dumber you prove me wrong.

Chinese used to have bad reputation in manufacture of holo sights, but now based on reviews of SiG and Holosun products this is no longer the case. I have only used dot sight and never a holo sight. Do holo sights not need batteries like certain Trijicon telescopic sights?

If you've never used one, maybe refrain from giving advice about them.

In my 507K when the co-witness sights are in alignment the dot is always present

I used electronic dot sight which should be close enough.

You're overlooking the fact that training requires stuff, in the form of ammo. And right now, that's a problem that must be weighed by those of us already accustomed to our iron sights. I was all set to begin transitioning to the dot, but don't see it as a priority at this time. My risk assessment tells me it's safer to maintain current skills than to start something new, until ammo is more available. YMMV.

Hit the nail on the head with that statement....

I literally quit shooting handguns in my early 40's due to aging eyes and inability to see the sites other than a large blur. After a few years of bifocals and then later going to trifocals, I discovered my middle lens works for shooting handguns. Using my middle lens to acquire the sights is pretty natural for me now after a lot of practice but not ideal. Reading glasses with a similar correction work better for shooting at the range, but I'd never be wearing them in a EDC scenario. More recently, I've been putting red dots on as many handguns as I can and really like them. They do require more effort initially learning to acquire the dot/site picture but I'm finding it to be less and less of an issue. Bottom line for me is red dots have brought me back to enjoying shooting handguns again. I probably still acquire the sight picture a little quicker with open sights but am confident that will be less of an issue with more practice. At this point in my life, I have no issues with red dots in an EDC scenario, but then I don't make a living with a handgun as part of my daily tool kit.

Solid point. Although my 22/45 with a Holosun on top would be good for training

This.

Also a good point.

I'd like to know if it matters more to use a similar pistol to what you carry, or if the sight is the same.

For me it was the fundamentals of the draw/presentation.

Getting good with a dot from the holster translates very well to being better without a dot from the holster.

Once you've got the dot, it's just faster and more accurate than irons from day one.

I understand that. But what I wonder is if practicing with the dot on one pistol model will translate well to the same dot on another pistol with different geometry.

Biggest benefit for aging eyes is a red dot. I will stick with irons for time being but could see red dots in future for me.

I've had one on my EDC's for several years.

It is MUCH QUICKER to make accurate shots, and anything beyond 20 yards and shooting quickly is much more accurate for me. And, I have 20/15 vision.

It takes a week or two of playing with to become second nature.

Another guy here that had to abandon handguns due to failing eyesight. Move ahead 30 yrs, I tried a holo sight on a shotgun and quickly abandoned that as I had to build up the stock too high . I did try one on my bow and it is a perfect fit, love it there. Now for the handgun another situation where no cheek weld is needed..

I bought a Glock 19 to carry while hunting on my MC along the southern border and the red dot will give me enough range to be able to use it to hunt with also.

I bought a Crimson Trace, it will get mounted today.

Update, I just came back from sighting it in. Perfect, I now have a serious 50yrd coyote killer. Love it.

Niiiiiiiice

It's all about trigger control.

The Texas church shooting where the hero firearms instructor took the bad guy out with a headshot at over 30 feet with a .357 Sig got me to thinking. When I was a young police officer, I could put headshot on target at 75 feet pretty much every time. Now, my aging eyes (61 years old) wont allow anything close to that. With my new P365XL with optic mounted I can hit the head of the target every shot at 50 feet. 75 feet from a solid rest. YMMV

Ron

Mucho good point sir...

The #1 complaint people have about handgun dots is finding the dot during the initial presentation of the gun. And you can master that with zero bullets.

Tracking the dot during recoil and shooting with an occluded optic are about the only things you need love ammo for. The first is really not a big deal since most people don’t track their irons either. The second isn’t something to practice and learn so much as it is a familiarization.

I agree 💯% that's how I acquainted myself with mine

I’ve gone back and forth on dots and started a dry fire training regimen to become a better shooter. A dot was highly encouraged but the only one I had left was on my 6” 686 so I started with irons. Then I tried the 686 and saw what the coach was talking about.

I pulled the dot from the 686 and put it on my Glock 45 MOS and dry fire really is the best thing to become familiar with a dot. It’ll teach you to pick the dot or your irons up earlier. It’ll teach you to track your sights be it irons or dot. It’ll show you the faults in your firing process (pull left and low or if you move to the next target before the hammer falls, the dot doesn’t lie.)

But the biggest benefit of a dot is it allows both eyes open, target focused attention and peripheral view of your surroundings. This is important whether your hunting, shooting a match or defending your life.

I have irons as backup if the dot fails but frankly I’ve seen more irons fail than dots.

I shoot everything both eyes open. Always have.

Tube type red dots are IMHO easy to use
Just gotta learn to not try and peek around the dot

Reflex sights can be a bit tricky in presentation so the dot shows up .

There may be a sight that works well on handguns w easier presentation.

TFB did a review

“ I shoot everything both eyes open. Always have.”

Yes but your focus with irons should be on the front sight and I just am more aware when I’m focusing on the targets. Maybe I didn’t explain it very well.

I do track my front sight. But your point is taken otherwise.

Maybe you can answer what others haven't. Does familiarization with a particular dot on one pistol translate well to the same dot on another pistol with different geometry? For instance, a Buckmark and a Shield.

It seems all this is more for the distances in competition than the street or dark house. Maybe put the money into the ammo it will take you to hit reliably out to 15 yards point shooting.

I *suspect* that switching between pistols would make a difference because I’ve noticed a difference acquiring iron sights, moving back and forth between M&Ps and Glocks. Seems like it would be the same grip-angle related problem with dots. But with irons it’s easy to overcome and not everybody has that problem.

Switching between DPPs, RMRs, SROs, and ACROs on the same pistol hasn’t been a problem. Preferences develop, but finding the dot on presentation has remained the same.

Thank you, Blue.