We used to list some shooting drills for people to try and then discuss here. I think we might all benefit from getting out and shooting a bit--this forum used to be mostly cordial, with members staying focused on the issues. Maybe some shooting would get us back on track. So...I propose that, during the month of June, we give the following drill a go:

TARGET: The tried and true B-8 (buy it or download it here: https://targets4free.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/NRA-B-8-Target-Adapted-by-Targets4Free.pdf) (Remember, don't shrink it to fit your paper. The 8-ring is supposed to be 8" in diameter.)

DISTANCE: 7 yds or 5 yds or 3 yds, your choice.

PREPARATION: Holstered carry pistol loaded with 1 round in the chamber and an empty magazine in the mag well. A spare magazine in a mag pouch also loaded with 1 round.

COURSE OF FIRE: Select a distance for the target. From concealment, at the beep, draw and fire one round; eject the empty magazine, reload, and fire one round. BOTH rounds must be in the black (the 9-ring) to pass. Par time is 5.0 seconds.

VARIATIONS: If you don't own a shot timer, aren't allowed to draw from a holster at your range, don't own two magazines, or whatever--IT DOES NOT MATTER. Just get out and shoot! Take pics, post them here, and say what you did. Just go shoot. (Ideally, post what gun/ammo you used, the distance, whether you shot from concealment/open/low ready, and your time.)

OPTIONAL: You don't have to, but maybe we could be polite here. Ask questions. Offer constructive criticism. Most of us suck with a handgun when it comes down to it--no need to point it out. Let's see what we can do to shoot better and help others to shoot better.

I gave it a go this morning. I had a great run (for me) at 15' right away, but it took about 5 attempts at 21' to get under 5 seconds. As you can see from the target, there are extra bullet holes from previous attempts. I'll include a pic of me waiting for the beep. It also shows my cover garment.



As you can see from my splits, you don't have to be lightning fast to make the par time of 5.0 seconds. I struggle with my draw speed; I try to go fast and end up all barfed up. My goal was to keep the draw under 2 seconds and the reload under 3 seconds. For those who care, my optic is a Leupold DPP.


This target at 21' shows 3 attempts before I made the time standard. In addition to these attempts, there were a couple where I didn't even fire a round, because I knew that my draw was way too slow, so I just reholstered and started over.

The great part about that drill is that a fellow gets to understand just how little time 5 seconds really is. Imho of course.

I'm gonna give it a shot next week just to see.

it's much slower, but you can do the same drill with your revolver. We used to practice that a lot in order to develop some speed on those 6 gun reloads.

Question?? How much quicker would you be with out the flash lite and optic?? Rio7

Nice shooting Waders.

What kinda holster are you using?

If anybody is lacking a printer or B-8 the 9 ring is about 5.5". You can use that to hang impromptu targets.

Good point about making your own targets.

My holster is a paddle holster from G-Code Tactical Holsters. (https://www.tacticalholsters.com/category/osl-holster/-1015). I carry this setup through the courthouse parking lot to and from work each day. It rides under a suit jacket. Much of the year it's fairly dark when I am walking to/from my vehicle, hence the light. People get quite upset at some decisions that I make, and I fully believe that they are capable of attempting something stupid as a way of expressing their anger.

It's a fair question. I have fiddled around with various "draw and fire" drills using a variety of pistols, and while I haven't observed any obvious differences after adding a light, neither have I taken the time to carefully compare the various speeds I get using different guns. I will give it a try. (The dot has been slightly faster for me, especially as distance increases).

I have a Glock 45 9mm that I bought on an impulse. The only mod I've made is adding an extended slide lock lever. (My plan is to shoot it a bit, and if I like it, send it out to be milled for a red dot.) I'll try this drill with the Glock and see how the times compare. With my poor near vision, I may struggle some to get iron sights to line up, but we'll see. I'll give it a shot (so to speak). In fact, I'll have some free time this afternoon before I go to the movies with Mrs. Waders, so I might get it done and have some pics posted by tonight.

Agreed. For us mere mortals, 5 seconds goes by in about 3 seconds! I'm sure that Bluedreaux and RyanTX will finish with time to spare, but I was at full-tilt boogy in order stay under 5.0.

Obviously, it would help if I were get my first shot down to 1.6 or 1.5, but from concealment, that kind of speed will only come from months and months of drawing practice in the living room. I think saving time on my reload is where I could really improve--try to get it to 2 seconds (mine were 2.74 and 2.72 yesterday). But, again, that's some dedicated practice--I'm not sure that I'm committed to getting better. We'll see...

In my experience guys can/do slow down with lights and optic but only if they stay with their traditional type draw.

If you're stuck in forward cant mode and raise your front sight to eye level in an arc, lights and optics cause problems. But if a guy uses a proper draw that comes straight up n out, there is no change in the time it takes to put first round on target.

If anything, they get faster.

I was doing a drill just to get under a one second draw to first shot on an A zone at 3 yards. With irons on a G19 I broke it but never could with my G45 MOS with 507c. That was possibly more the 45 vs 19 grip I’m hoping.

I’ve got a Dagger coming with a 507c on it and I’m gonna work on this drill with both. I know a red dot is more accurate, allows target focus and is faster in a full stage. I think I was putting too much emphasis on the first shot and denying the benefits of a red dot.

I also bought a G19 MOS last week, just deciding on which dot to go with but I am committed to learning the dot.

I went to the range. I shot both the G45 and the Sig P320.

At 15' I shot the two guns about the same. I shot the drill until I cleaned it 3 times with each gun, then I averaged the 3 fastest times for each gun. I averaged 4.58 sec. with the G45, and with the P320 I averaged 4.55 sec. Here's the first target with the G45:



'Flave is right as to why they work out the same at close range. With the Glock, I was picking up the front sight early, and that gave me time to shoot with a less than perfect sight alignment. With the red dot, there really isn't a way to shoot with imperfect sight alignment--either you see a dot or you don't. Hence my accuracy was better with my red dot, but I am still working out seeing the dot quickly off the draw. Here are three runs with the red dot at 15 feet:



At 21 feet, I was better with the red dot. I tried the drill 6 times and cleaned it 3 times (in the three no-go's, I had misses). My average time was 4.45 seconds. With the G45 I tried the 4 times and only shot clean on the last attempt. It's not really enough data to draw any conclusions, but again my accuracy overall was better with the red dot. (I didn't get any pics of the 21' targets).

I know what you mean about picking up the dot. The Burris Fast-Fire II/III was the first red dot I used on pistols and those will definitely slow you down while picking up the dot. To help with that, I switched to the Primary Arms 507C with the ACSS reticle and that really helps when trying to acquire the dot(wedge), especially at odd angles.

Here's a link to what I'm using on my Glock 19 MOS: Primary Arms 507C with ACSS Vulcan reticle

Crappy pic but you'll get the idea of how it helps not having to fish around trying to pick up your sight. Standing at the range with good form, this isn't really an issue but in real world use, this could very well be a life-saver!! There are some good videos at the link above and I encourage everyone to watch and try one of these optics on your pistol.


This shows how, with proper alignment, you only see the wedge and the 250 MOA circle will be hidden from view. It only shows up when you're not aligned correctly....

I shot this today.

IWB Black Kydex. Slightly behind the 3 o'clock. Single mag at the nine o'clock.

Polo shirt covering both. Glock 17 from the five yard line:



Average for five attempts was 4.49

My most dreaded drill right now is the devil drill. 6 rounds on a B8 at 6 yards in 6 seconds. Oh and there's a mandatory slide lock reload somewhere in there that your partner set's up by loading your mag.

No I haven't beat it yet.

Posting from Imgur on my phone is a pain so I didn’t take pics.

From 5 yards my times ranged from 3.55 to 4.28. My average for 15 runs was 3.93.

At 7 yards my times ranged from 3.61 to 4.19. My average for 8 runs was 3.94.

M&P 2.0Compact with a DPP from a Harry’s holster at 1 o’clock. The reload was a full size mag with the lip sticking out of my front pocket. I don’t have a concealment msg pouch with me.

I did a couple of practice runs today on two 6" plates with my XD45.2 Subcompact using two flush fit 9 round mags (2 finger death grip) and 230 grain reloads. I normally carry it in an Azula high rise under a tail-out T shirt, so that's how I shot it.

I discovered the arthritis in an old left hand injury is worse than I thought, and so were my times. I arranged my spare mag in the same manner as Blue and frankly, I fumbled it a couple of times. When I didn't, I ran 4.70-4.89 with hits near the center of each plate. This was at seven yards.

The purpose of these drills is to learn things and my case, I'm going to have to adapt to compensate for some dexterity I've lost. I'll shoot this again later with a full-size mag for the reload.

Does anybody know of a better Android shot timer than Splits? I had to run an earplug loose to hear the damn thing and now have an ear ringing pretty good.

That's good shooting! Couple questions:

- Did you even have any runs that were no-go's (missed shots or over time)?
- What is your typical/average draw time?

Thanks.

Svelte! Good work!

Sorry if I missed it elsewhere, but what are you running for sights/optic?

EDIT: I see from another post that you run irons on the G17.

My G34 wears a Trijicon SRO and the 5 MOA dot.

I had a no-go from the 7 at the end. After getting the 3.61 I wanted to see if I could down to 3.00 and it went off the rails with two misses.

The 4.28 was a 2.03 draw and 2.25 reload.
The 3.61 was a 1.61 draw and 2.00 reload.

I can’t safely draw and fire from concealment faster than 1.2ish. So 1.7ish for an actual hit from 7 isn’t too bad, IMO.

Gee, thanks for calling me out Waders, ha! I'll try to get to the range, but it would have to be tonight or tomorrow if i can. We've got a good chance of storms this evening and tomorrow. Boy do we need the rain and the cooler weather we are supposed to get with it. We're headed out of town Friday for a wedding. If not, I'll get out there next week after we get back and post up. Got to get out there to mow anyway.

I'll be the first to admit that I haven't been practicing under a timer from concealment in a while or near as often as I should (or would like to). Looking forward to this drill. Thanks for posting this and encouraging some good drills that we all need to practice.

Waders, thanks for this handy drill. I use the same holster (G-Code) on my Glocks but today I shot my new (two weeks or so) Sig P365XL out of an Urban Carry holster. I showed it to my Training LT and he liked it. Did two from three and two from five yards, average time was 5.48. Ammo used was Norma 115gr FMJ.

I use splits with my Moto G power and the volume is enough if nothing else is going on. You might try vibrate mode with the phone in your shirt pocket. I had to set the beep duration to 1/8 second, and the sound intensity wider to keep the beep from being recorded as a shot. I wouldn't mind trying a different app too if someone has a recommendation.

I tried the drill today at 7yds with an M&P40c out of a level 2 retention paddle holster at 4 o'clock. I put the extra magazine in my front left pocket (cause I forgot my mag pouch). I averaged 2 seconds to first shot drawing from under a buttoned, untucked shirt. My reload times required a sundial to measure. I never made par. All my shots were money.

I also timed drawing a PF9 holstered in my front right pocket - 3 seconds on average. I found I had to slow way down in order to make the shot as getting a solid grip was difficult.

I used the "Splits" shot timer app for Android. It is better than nothing, but I'm open to suggestions.

While we are on the topic of timers, can someone recommend a shot timer that they like? Sorry, I'm sure this has been beaten to death, but I never paid much attention.

I'll try to shoot this drill tomorrow.

I really like Competition Electronics.

The Pocket Pro works just fine.

$140 bucks??? Who has that kind of money??

Winners.

I’ve got the Pact Club timer but I really like the CED 7000 due to its small size.

I see they used to sell one for $79.

This a case where something from "Bing Wong's House of Fine Electronics" would be adequate.

A bluetooth speaker or one that plugs into the phone would work from the tailgate of my little pickup - along with the Splits app.

Headphones over my earplugs, phone in my shirt pocket.

Or search Alibaba for the $10 solution.

FWIW, I didn't used to own or use a shot timer. I just guessed at how fast/slow I was. Finally a friend convinced me to download a shot timer app for my phone.

From the first trip to the range, I was hooked. Shot timers cannot be lied to, bribed, or befriended--they just tell the truth regardless of what you want to hear. My iPhone app wasn't super consistent so I went timer shopping. Bluedreaux answered some questions for me; I bought one (Pocket Pro II); and I've never looked back.

My speeds are not flashy, but I have improved steadily since using a timer.

I have one with a cracked face and it’s at least 15 years old.

Still going strong.

I think that’s a worthwhile investment if you like to shoot.

I want to be a winner…. Unfortunately my dump job, they withheld money from my check this week. Sounds like my rent went up on the land my trailer sits on..

Training without a timer is like running without a stopwatch.

“I ran three miles” doesn’t mean much unless you’re talking to somebody that hasn’t ran in 20 years.

Very humbled tonight, took the new Dagger out this evening, sighted in the HS507C and was keeping them in the A zone at 50 yards. Decent groups at 25 even with the stock trigger, which is not as nice as my Gen 5’s.

Feeling confident, I tried this drill and couldn’t get a good grip from the draw, had to hunt the dot, wasn’t used to the open space in the sides of the grip and kept trying to reinsert the mag, never got under 6 seconds.

Dot came off and will go on my 19 MOS when the FCD plate gets in and I’ll try again. Dagger will go on down the road most likely.

I printed targets off yesterday and hope to try the drill this afternoon after I get off.

I ran the drill 4 times, I passed twice and failed twice. You said it could be shot form 3,5 or 7 yards, so I went with 5 yards.
Shot it with my S&W M&P full size (4.25" barrel). I knew when you come out of the holster that you are screwed on the ones I failed on, my draw was jacked up big time.

Pullit,

That's fast! What style holster--OWB or IWB? If IWB, where was it positioned--appendix? 3 o'clock? What was your cover garment--T-shirt? Hoodie? Jacket?

Again, those are good runs!

I timed drawing from under a buttoned shirt to first shot, 21', S&W329 44mag 300gr@1050fps, wearing the revolver in a top-flap holster shown below, carried at 4 O'clock - 4 seconds average.



The slowest part of the draw is negotiating the hold down snap. I think I'm going to convert the snap to Velcro. The buck and roar of the revolver did not effect my shot accuracy.

That's quick.

It was a OWB holster, cover was a tee shirt, 3 o'clock. I have been taking classes and we practice this drill in several classes. I was just about as fast as the instructors on draw to first shot, but as I am setting my second mag, one of them was shooting their second shot.
I wear shorts and an untucked tee during the summer here in TN, so that is the way I did the drill. I use an IWB if I am going to church or something like that. I may try the drill again with IWB holster but I can guarantee I will be slower (I was in class anyway, by about a second or so)

I said "wider" but I meant "higher". Basically you adjust the microphone so that it rejects all but the shot impulse. That way you can turn the phone's volume all the way up to maximize the "beep".

And you have to remember to "save" (which I didn't) so that you can review your shot strings later. Also, another thing I didn't do right, you need to annotate your shot sequence if you are changing weapons, or have multiple shooters. I went from a 40sw for the full drill, to a 44mag for half the drill, to an AR15 for my own 50meter drill - and the database has a mismash of numbers.

Tried the drill using an IWB holster, same gun, same position, same everything except the holster. (4) runs and only one clean run, and that was the 4th run. I listed my time from beep to 1st shot time as well. I really had to work hard to cut my time down with the IWB holster. When carrying OWB I was in the 1.2-1.4 range for the first shot. It was eye opening to see what the difference IWB to OWB does. I know from past classes I have taken that appendix carry gives me my fastest times, but I can not find a comfortable way to carry there. If I am standing all the time, I can get a comfortable position, but when I sit, it digs in. If I get it feeling good sitting, then it pokes out when I stand. I gave up on appendix carry and will give up a couple of tenths for comfort.

I used the same target and recorded my times on it. The first run, I pitched a shot low about 6:30 or so. The 3rd run I pitched one at about 2 o'clock or so. The 2nd and 4th run were clean but I went over time on the 2nd run.

This is where gaming can interfere with reality.

I'm not aware of any REAL self-defense situation where the outcome depended on the speed of the draw.

The main value of this drill is to educate on the reality of time. I.e. I see how fast I can go with my typical carry setup, and identify tradeoffs to be made to go faster.

I ran this drill Thursday night. I'll get the excuses out of the way first.... it was 9:30 PM, the sun was setting, and the range faces west.......:) I shot with a XDM9 Elite from a OWB holster at 3:00 with spare mags in a mag pouch at 9. No concealment.

I had some trouble making par, and more trouble just making hits. Then at the "suggestion" of the RSO, I moved the target back to the berm and repeated, where I found some success as I wasn't staring so directly into the sun.

I got 4.7, 4.88, and 4.9 that passed (barely). Shot a couple there that failed to make par too. Also realized on the reset that my first target was probably at 7 yards, and when I reset I was at 5 paces.

Fun drill, cheap to shoot, and gives you something to improve on. Thanks Wade

Also, thanks for the shot timer feedback. Leaning CED 7000.

Waders. I just tried the drill again, only this time with my Colt Commander and I was able to get under 5 secs. 4.47 to be exact. I attribute this to the fact I am much more familiar with the Colt than the 31 and the Col'ts single action trigger pull is also a plus.

Well I keep trying, but my reload times just kill me. Sucks to get old..



I start missing when I speed up my first shot.

But my times for draw to hitting two targets 5' apart, 1 shot each didn't bug me.

21', draw from concealment of buttoned, untucked shirt. Level 2 paddle at 4oclock, paddle mag pouch at 8oclock. M&P40c.