Fight Stopper ?? - 24hourcampfire

Is there a general consensus as to the relative stopping ability of :
 357 magnum
 40 S&W
 45 ACP
 Given same length barrel and all the usual qualifiers being the same.

Nope like Fords and Chevys. What you like is what you believe in. With your question we get the "what is true today at this instant may cost your life tomorrow" thing. No one has ever been able to say what causes a bullet to be a fight stopper in any given instence with a center-mass killing hit, to many variables, any of the three is better at sometime. That is why there is NO 100% bullet or caliber that is generally carried. I'm sure that if you carred a BFG in 45-70 you'ed have a 100% gun but of the three you listed you take your shot and bet your life.

This topic has been beaten to death for decades.
 IMHO it is the operators proficiency with the weapon that counts more than the round in the gun. Add to that how does the operator react under extreme stress? If the operator freezes or screws up in the heat of a dangerous encounter it won't matter what kind of gun he has.
 Of the rounds you listed, in the hands of a trained operator they are very close in performance, so close that I wouldn't try to pick one over the other. It would boil down to training and practice.
 
 ZM

The degree of efficiency is considerably more reliant on bullet design rather than the caliber. A .32 ACP out of a short barreled pocket defense piece like my KelTec P32 back-up, can do more damage than a .357 Mag hollowpoint, if you're using Glaser's.
 
 Also, if the bullet exits the primary target,the rest of it's energy is expended on travel, rather than changing a situation.
 
 I would say that bullet design and shot placement are much more relative to stopping power than caliber, regardless of the firearm in use. All three you mention have a penchant for overpenetration, even the venerable .45ACP, unless specific ammo is selected for a particular purpose.

http://www.powernet.net/~eich1/sp.html
 
 Here are some stats. you might find this informative.
 
 MM

This is one area that I'm delighted to have no experience in. A cop friend who has a lot of field experience in it (and has done a lot of field and literature research on it) tells me that bullet diameter, weight, and design are less crucial than the minimum effective velocity of (IIRC) about 1,200 to 1,300 ft/sec.

I'd put my money on the .45 ACP 230 grain hollow point. As far as just stopping power goes, all of the ones you mentioned are so close, that the difference doesn't make a difference. The .45 is easiest to handle in fight stopping loads though, in my opinion.

You listed three of the best. Choose the one that fits in the hand gun of your choice and remember to shoot twice. I made the same decision last year. I went with the 40 S&W. Ruled out the 357 Mag. Did not want to pack a revolver. Ruled out the 1911, wanted a double action and more mag capaticity. I bought the Beretta 96 in .40 S&W. Good caliber, 10 round mags, and the gun fitts me well. After a Briley trigger job I can shoot it very well too.
 Bullet choice would be more improtant than any difference that might exist between those three calibers.

It is hard to say what is going to work. Bizarre things happen in shootings. Sometimes a 22 will do the job and sometimes a 44 mag won't. It usually and that is the best qualifer there is, makes more difference where the bullet is and how big it is. I would differ with Dr. Howell's friend in his assesment. If velocity made the greatest difference why are not the 7.62 X 25 Tokarev or the 30 Luger known as man stopers. They certainly make the velocity window. However, they shoot little bitty bullets and metal cased at that. On the other hand street reports give the nod to the 125 gr out of the 357 as the best one shot stopper. Go figure. The old forty five colt has always had a good reputation. Big heavy and slow but effective.
 Wading through all the above underbrush I go with the 45 ACP with a good 230 hp bullet. Provided of course that center of mass hits can be done consistently.
 
 BCR

Gene,
 
 You've received much good info so far on this thread.
 IMHO the best fight stopper is to not get into a situation where you'll have a fight to stop. The best self defense is situation avoidance.
 
 Staying away from places where trouble has a greater chance of starting: Bars, dark alleys, etc.
 
 Staying away from people who are known troublemakers, etc.
 
 Leaving an are if trouble appears imminent.
 
 Looking away instead of making eye contact.
 
 If you must use deadly force the item of primary importance is hitting the target with multiple rounds in the boiler room before the target can do it to you.
 
 I am as happy carring my .38 snub with glaser as I am carrying my .357 Sig M33 Glock with Cor-Bons.
 
 Norm

" ... if the bullet exits the primary target,the rest of it's energy is expended on travel, rather than changing a situation."
 
 Give this popular but illogical misconception more thought before you buy it.
 
 (a) If the bullet comes to rest within the body, it has caused less and less tissue damage up to the point where it has caused virtually none and has too little energy left to penetrate farther.
 
 (b) If the bullet penetrates the entire body, it has caused great tissue damage along its entire path through the body -- enough to plow through tough skin again -- irrespective of how much more energy it still retains.
 
 (c) Carried to its logical (but stupid) conclusion, the theory that you've just repeated argues for LESS power, not more, in the cartridge, its bullet, and its velocity. IOW, it blesses anything that enters but doesn't exit.

Ken,
 
 You mean a 38spl 125gr HP load that stays in the body DOESN'T do more damage than a .44Mag 180gr HP at 1800fps that leaves a fist-sized exit wound???
 
 Regards,
 
 MM

Ken, I think Glockblaster was referring to two rounds of the same caliber, travelling at the same rate of speed, but of different designs. The one designed to expend all its energy inside (e.g., a hollow point) should do more damage than the one designed to hold together (e.g., a FMJ), passing all the way through doing relatively little damage. If it did a lot of damage, it would have to expend destructive engergy, which hinders through and through penetration.

That is a very informative link.Doubtless there will be different conclusions drawn but my two are:
 
 1. Ken's friend seems to be on track in believing velocity should be a prime consideration.
 
 2.The 45acp deserves its' defenders.
 
 I was really surprised to see how well the 9mm compares.
 I have owned or still own the three cartridges I mentioned,as well as the 9mm .I will stick with the 41 mag however.It just feels comforting!!! I see what it does on game.

TRH,
 
 You are correct in that I was comparing bullets of the same caliber, but the degree of damage of a larger caliber can be accomplished with a smaller caliber if the bullet is designed to expand properly and dissipate kinetic energy, causing hydraulic pressure damage( temporary and permanent crush cavities) within the body.
 
 If the bullet retains enough energy for travel through the body, it may generate some degree of cavitation, but not enough shock trauma to stop the situation.
 
 You will not, however, find me calling someone's theories(misconcieved or not) "stupid" or other derrogatory terms. I work with an individual with a very extensive medical background and I always research my theories before I relate or expound them. Derrogatory remarks tend to reveal that an individual is unwilling to learn or re-examine possibly false information that they have been given previously.
 
 I always carefuly analyze and extrapolate information with external reinforcement to avoid passing along "stupid" ideas.

Take a closer look at my post and note carefully what (specifically) I called stupid. Is it not stupid?

Ken is absoulty correct in his assement. Take a look at the construction of the human body, we are bipedal, we stand upright on two legs. We as humans are thinskined, our structure presents a different alingment of vital organs than found in quadrapeds, four legged animals. Most shots taken at a human torso have a greater chance of damaging internal organs, soft tissue, than that of say a deer or bear, Breaking a human sholder will be painfull but not necessarly debilitating. A sternum shot will kill almost instantly if the bullet penetrates the soft tissue and if it has the energy to pass all the way through the body chances of survival drop dramatically. As all the human organs hang down in the chest cavity with out the protection of sholder blades or any massive bony structure it is easier to damage them. The best bullet in my opinion would be the "Flying Trash Can" 45APC hollow point at max velocity. This combination just eats up flesh and bone and spits them out of the exit wound. If you want all the energy expended in the body you need to use fragible bullets and not hit bones on the way in.
 
 Bullwnkl.

"If the bullet retains enough energy for travel through the body, it may generate some degree of cavitation, but not enough shock trauma to stop the situation."
 
 Duhhhhh -- huh?
 
 Please tell this stupid ol' phardt how a bullet can "generate some degree of cavitation" (like blowing a hellish hole through living tissue, clear on out the other side?) and NOT generate "enough shock trauma to stop the situation," while another bullet can come to a full stop without going that far and be more effective. I thought tearing big holes through live flesh WAS "generating trauma," in essence. And no, I'm still not talking about mere arrow-like penetration -- but about bullets that hit hard but run out of energy at significantly different points. I have a hard time understanding how a bullet that blows a big hole only halfway through a body can be more deadly than one that blows a big hole all the way through and keeps going. I'm interested in what damage the bullets do in and to the flesh, not in some neat ballistic accounting that's concerned with the percentage of the bullet's potential energy that's "wasted" on farther travel.
 
 I look forward to being enlightened.

MUCH more important than the gun, the cartridge, the bullet,or its characteristics is the FULL ability of the person holding the gun. Your "full ability" must comprise far more than good control of sight picture (which may not enter the specific equation at all) and trigger release. "Full ability" includes also the readiness and willingness (well short of eagerness) to shoot another person, IF NECESSARY, without undue hesitation, and the swiftness of thought and controlled action necessary to do so.
 
 I like the very real and pertinent distinction drawn by my old Arizona neighbor and friend Colonel Jeff Cooper -- the technical and the moral components of firing a weapon in self-defense. This thread is concerned, so far, with one part of the technical component -- but all is for naught if the person responding to deadly threat lacks the necessary ability to make the necessary moral decision IMMEDIATELY. If you have that ability, the technical is almost moot.
 
 BTW, that gorgeous retired FBI agent who wrote of her career in the Bureau confirmed a long-held theory of mine -- that pointing a gun obviously at a [male] perp's genitalia is a more-demoralizing threat than pointing at his head or torso. An older agent put her onto the notion, and she wrote that when she had occasion to follow his advice, the perp practically disintegrated before her eyes.

Ken, you have touched on something that way too many folks don't think about until too late when (God forbid) they are involved in a shooting. Almost all defensive shootings are going to be quick, close and highly emotion charged. There really isn't time to do any involved thought process at the time. Stoping to think will get you killed, you just react.
 Somehow everything we have been taught about gun safety and being careful and the sancity of human life etc must go out the window in an instant. The normal cautious and safety consious person must immediately turn into a cold eyed killer. It is hard to do. The aftermath is even worse usually.
 Its been said that the only sure way to win a gun fight is not to get in one. Truer words were never spoke.
 
 BCR

It's true that, in order to survive, you have to react as soon as a gun is seen in the hands of a dangerous looking person, or it will be too late to react, but consider this. I read a case where a retired man in his late sixties lived nextdoor to his second home that he was renting out. One night he saw three men dressed all in black, with black masks, breaking into his rental property. He grabbed his pistol and his cell phone. Pistol in one hand and cell phone in the other, he was pleading with the police to send a squad car, which they said they would, and that he should stay on the phone and inside his house. One of the men in black noticed him through the sliding glass door the old man was standing near (he was watching them as they were breaking in) and all three "burglars" drew weapons and opened fire, killing the property owner by shooting through the glass door, which was just a few yards from where they were working.
 
 Now, the proper thing for the victim to have done (other than running for cover, if he had time), was to return fire as soon as he saw them raising their weapons, but had he done that and won, I assure you, he would have been placed in prison for murdering three federal agents who were investigating a forgery case. No charges were pressed against the agents, because they said that they behaved reasonably, and that for all they knew, this guy was going to shoot them. "If you wait and see, you could be too late," one of them said. Now do you think that legal defense would have worked if the old man had successfully dispatched all three agents and lived to tell the tale? I think he'd probably get the chair. Interesting how those things only work one way, i.e., when the reasonable mistake involves dead federal agents, but not when the reasonable mistake involves mere dead civilians. I guess we civilians are expendable. [Linked Image]

Perhaps federal agents shouldn't be snooping around people's houses in the middle of the night dressed as cat burglars. Just a thought. Seems like a sure formula for disaster in a nation of riflemen.
 
 I think it's high time for legislation requiring federal agents to be accompanied by local UNIFORMED police officers or deputy sheriffs whenever they have to trespass on private property during an investigation. Too many civilians are getting killed or roughed up by these jack booted thugs in black, just because they behaved reasonably and grabbed a gun when these hooded creeps entered onto private property unannounced. Might be a good idea to outlaw "no knock" searches and siezures while we're at it. This is not the Soviet Union, after all.
 
 P.S., Just want to clarify that I have nothing against the ordinary FBI Special Agent. Most of these guys are just doing a job and a public service investigating crimes. My criticism is for the commandoes calling themselves law enforcement professionals. These guys are more military than cop, and have no place in dealing with the civilian population during the course of an ordinary investigation. If a police officer has a warrent to search, they should knock on the door during the day, and present the warrent wearing a business suit or a policeman's or deputy's uniform. There is no place for helmets, shields and ninja suits when the federal government interacts with the civilian population in the ordinary course of an investigation (unless we have a clock tower sniper or some such similar situation ALREADY IN PROGRESS).
 
 This was exactly what the founders feared in allowing a federal standing army, and is exactly why they established a system of local law enforcement. If a federal investigator must come in contact with a civilian in the course of a criminal investigation, he should be wearing a business suit and be accompanied by local police officer or deputy sheriff.

As far as "reacting as soon as a gun is seen in the hand of a dangerous looking person",I'm of the opinion that the optimum time for reaction was reached at some time prior to that.Pulling out a gun against a guy who has his in his hand does not seem the best course of action.Taking cover or running seem better choices.
 
 Anyhow,the question was about consensous of opinion.The link posted by Montana Marine[ Happy Birthday,Semper Fi] was worth the thread.

I enjoyed Montana Marine's link as well, I've seen most of it before, but that is the first time I've seen them all in one spot.
 
 Most telling statistic I find is that like any shootist will tell you, you only use a pistol to fight your way back to your rifle/shotgun. Notice the stopping stats on the shotgun and rifles versus almost all the pistol loads. Carry a 15 and you have range, accuracy, stopping power, and firepower on them. Which is the reason, I make it a CAR-15 my car carry gun of choice.
 
 And, like the information at the bottom of the page mentions, these are the results of torso hits, they disclaim any HEAD or NECK shots since they proclaim the incapacitation or deaths resulting from them to be due to BULLET PLACEMENT. [Linked Image]

'NUFF SAID.

My "comfort" weapon is the Marlin 45 70 you used to kill the hog,CAT. it fits real nicely with the butt against the back seat and the forearm resting on the console right beside me.No need for concealment.Back when I traveled a lot out of state,it raised a few eyebrows when I would check into a hotel with it under my arm.It might have been illegal in some instances but no one ever questioned me.Come to think of it,I've never had the urge to question a guy with a 45 70,either!

Rather than flogging a dead horse, read the conclusions of Sanow and Marshall in their books on handgun stopping power. No speculation, just a hard, cold recital of actual shootings broken down by caliber and bullet weight. In almost all cases the .357 with a 125 gr. bullet won for effectiveness,}93% if I recall correctly. My ox was gored when I found out my 10mm is less effective than the .40 SW, go figure. Still trying to puzzle that out, but these are actual shootings and don't allow emotions to cloud the issue.
 batch

Batch, it's true that the 125 grain .357 Magnum from a four inch barrel is the best fight stopper statistically, however that one consideration is not the only relevant consideration. The .45 ACP (using Plus P 230 grain JHPs) scores only one or two percentage points below the .357 Magnum with 125 grain JHPs, but the .45 ACP is a lot easier to shoot because it has less felt recoil and is a single action semi-auto. That more than makes up the difference of one or two percentage points of recorded one shot stops. Sometimes a quick follow up is needed, and that can be done much easier with a .45 ACP auto pistol than with a four inch service revolver. And forget about one of those lightweight 2" .357 Magnums. A quick follow up would be very hard to do with one of those. So you have to take other factors into consideration in selecting a defensive carry weapon.
 
 Also, the .357 Magnum will destroy your eardrums in an enclosed space. The .45 will not.

KH,
 
 Cavitation is the path of cellular disruption along the bullet path, due to hydraulic pressure. Cells are comprised mostly of fluid contained in thin, membraneous tissue bound together to form organs, muscle, flesh, etc. Hydraulic pressure "pops" the cell walls along the bullet's path , forms the wound channel and causes hemorrageing along that channel.
 Crush cavities, both temporary and permanent, are formed when a bullet expands rapidly, multiplying resistance and hydraulic pressure, and stops rather abruptly by dissapating it's kinetic energy guickly.
 
 Wound channels are usually rather small in diameter, typically two to three times the bullet diameter. A permanent crush cavity is the massive, nearly complete destruction of cell tissue around the area where the bullet abruptly stopped, and may be as much as four to six times the bullet diameter. The temporary crush cavity is the area of lesser disruption that gets progressively lighter, expanding away from the permanent crush cavity. It can be as much as ten to fifteen times the bullet diameter!
 
 The origional theory behind developement of hollow point projectiles was to cause rapid expansion, terminal release of kinetic energy, and massive internal crush cavities that could not be formed if the bullet performed as a hole punch.
 
 The new Quik Shok .22 LR ammo was developed to stop small game more efficiently, by fragmenting into it's origional three pieces and "dumping" all it's energy without exiting the body. the result was .22 magnum performance and shock trauma with a more efficient bullet design. A standard .22LR and a .22 Mag would typically passed on through, traveled many more yards and wasted energy in sustained flight.
 
 A rather crude similie comes to mind: Which would cause the most damage and desired effect, a bazooka round that passed through a house and exploded in the back yard of a neighbor, or one that terminated explosively inside the house aimed at?

Hawkeye, have you ever actually fired a .45 and a .357 indoors? I have - and I am convinced that *either* round will cause immediate hearing damage if fired indoors (or outdoors next to concrete walls) without protection.
 
 Even a .22lr from a concealable pistol will damage hearing - especially indoors.
 
 No one walks away from a gunfight unscathed. My vote goes to the tactics that pre-empt the fight altogether.
 
 -FreeMe

FreeMe:
 
 Am I missing something here, most deadly force laws and concealed carry permits require you to be sure that the use of deadly force is justified, and if it is, what tactics do you propose that allow you to NOT fire your weapon indoors if an assailant/robber/rapist/psycho has a weapon and is threatening you or yours and is in your house? Say, "Hold it for a second, while I put these earmuffs on."? Hell, survival beats better hearing just like 3 aces beats a pair of deuces. Shoot the SOB and worry about the decibels later.

IIFID - All I meant to point out was that I do not believe the .45 has any practical advantage over the .357 for my hearing. Rest assured that if the situation calls for shooting, my hearing will not even be on my mind...
 
 "Hell, survival beats better hearing just like 3 aces beats a pair of deuces."
 
 I agree 100%.
 
 But we were talking about fight stoppers, and as I said before - "My vote goes to the tactics that pre-empt the fight altogether."
 
 What I mean by that is the tactics employed *before* the fight becomes eminent. I'm talking about prevention or pre-emption. It's my bad, since the original point of this thread was a comparison of calibers - but it does serve the point that I think many of us worry too much about caliber/gun choice and not enough about prevention/tactics.
 
 -FreeMe

So many words, so wide of the mark, so devoid of logic!
 
 The bazooka round is in no way analagous to the statement that I still question (" ... if the bullet exits the primary target,the rest of it's energy is expended on travel, rather than changing a situation"). That statement implies -- using a true simile -- that a Bobcat that shoves its blade halfway through a house, then poops out behind the debris pile in front of it, is more effective than a D-9 that pushes that debris pile on out into the back yard. THIS simile illustrates my point -- that damage (DAMAGE, I said, NOT a silly little bullet-diameter "wound channel") that continues clear on through the body -- and OUT -- has to be more effective than damage done only half-way through.
 
 That may not be what you meant for it to imply, but that's what it does imply, and what many unthinking people have taken and repeated it to mean. As they say south of the Rio, "El perico dice lo que sabe pero no sabe lo que dice." [The parrot says what he knows but doesn't know what he says.]
 
 I've been into the wound channels, cavities, and guts of enough game animals, big and small, to have a good bit more and better than a merely academic or theoretical idea of what makes bullet damage deadly. In the real world, the matter is subject to too many wildly unpredictable variables to let it be definitively subject to simplified theories. In 1956, a 180-grain Remington Bronze-point that came spittin' 'n' gittin' out of my '03 sporter (an '06 Ackley) poked a wound channel right on through a spike bull up on lower Tin Cup, from fifty yards or less. He ran fifty yards or less, piled-up, and couldn't get up. My four-inch S&W finished him, but he was already dying before it came out of the holster. The next year, I shot and finished a six-pointer that my partner had shot through the spine just above the lungs three days earlier. Despite the massive tissue damage done by his 220-grain Core-Lokt -- including a smashed vertebra -- that original wound had already begun to knit itself back together, and when I tracked and shot him, the bull was browsing as though no one had ever put a bullet into him.

Ken, what you are talking about requires more energy, i.e., two bullets having the same destructive effect on tissue per inch of travel, but one remaining inside, while the other exiting. Can't be done unless the exiting round had more energy to start with. If we assume identical foot pounds energy, either the energy is used up in deep penetration and flying out the back or in making a big ugly wound channel (ideally penetrating far enough to damage organs). There is no free lunch. In order for it to fly out the back at all, some of the potentially destructive energy is being wasted in travelling through the air behind the target. Best possible scenario would be for the fully expanded bullet to pop out the back and the then fall straight to the ground, having used up all of its energy in destroying tissue and bone. It's possible I'm missing something here, but I don't think so.

Truth is , none of the commonly casrried defense/police handguns are clear "stoppers" against humans.
 
 That's why serious handgun training is heavily weighted with shooting drills that include doubletaps, hammers, sighted pairs, failure drills, reverse failure drills, etc.
 
 MM

I think anybody who has killed more than half a dozen head of larger game knows exactly what Ken is talking about. My 22 250 with a particular bullet will not exit a deer's body if shot thru the rib cage.It will kill the deer but it will have traveled some distance before expiring.
 
 My 338 RUM and 416 RIGBY and 45 70 and 7 RUM will exit every time on the same size animal.The deer will not travel far if at all.
 
 There is no question which is the better stopper of these catagories.
 
 I load my 257 AI and 257 WBY from the same box of 117 gr hornadies. One at 2800 fps and the other at 3280 fps.There is a range where the Ackley bullet will barely drop out the other side of the deer.At that range,the WBY bullet will still exit with enough remaining velocity to discourage a feller from wanting to be standing on the other side.I understand Ken's point to be that the WBY deer is going to be in poorer health than the Ackley deer.
 
 If that ain't his point,then it is mine.

Gene, I'm with you. A .45-70 is going to knock an animal down faster than a .22-250, but that's because the bullet is bigger, heavier, and carries more energy and momentum. Let's compare a 150 grain full metal jacket .30-06 with a soft point spitzer of the same caliber and weight, travelling at the same speed. The FMJ is highly likely to make two holes, while the soft point is less likely to. Which do you think will put the animal down faster? The reason is, the soft point dumped its energy where it counts, in the animal. Translated, the soft point bullet did more damage going through. If the bullet does more damage, it is less likely to have the extra energy it takes to make it out the other side, because it spent all its energy on destroying tissue and bone. The ideal, then, is a fully mushroomed bullet just under the skin on the far side. That indicates that all the energy was used up destroying tissue, and there was none left for anything else.
 
 There is a hunting advantage to making two holes, i.e., two blood trails, but that has little to do with stopping power. It does help you find the animal, though.

I won't get in the nit picking about through and throughs on defensive shootings. One thing to mind though is if the bullet is still winging its merry way after exiting the body then you have to worry about where it is going to wind up. You sure don't want to tag Aunt Nellie down the street or some kid in the next room. You launched the bullet and you are responsible for it until it comes to rest. Just something to think about.
 
 BCR

Sho 'nuff pardner, Unless you have a sure back stop you don't want bullets flying around after they did their intended job. I prefere the ones the "splat" for humans, and the bigger the better. It's just not the same as hunting game animals in the woods.
 
 I might mention an old saying from my Army days though.
 "There is no such thing as overkill, just a generous margin of safety!"

Considering what is behind the bad guy is something for the cops to consider as I see it. For a citizen to be justified in using deadly force,all that is "out the window"in my book.It has to be a "kill or be killed" situation and the bad guy is responsible for any collateral damage resulting from my use of a 41 mag.The law in Texas seems to recognize that since - assuming the shooting is held to be justified - I am not responsible as long as the bullet passes thru the bad guy before hitting someone else.
 
 My real point is that if I have an option "not to shoot" because of fear of hitting someone else,I'm not justified in shooting at all.The one time I was in a shooting situation,I was constrained by fear of punishment.That was clearly a situation where - although I could probably have gotten off - killing was not justified.As a result of that,I have confidence in my judgement.
 
 I think Col. Cooper was right on the mark in his comments,but I think we all have a threshold inborn in us that serves us well in a stressful situation.

gene,
 
 In Indiana the law is not simple but if you follow the guidelines:
 Use lethal force only when you believe you are in danger of death or serious bodily harm or a third party is in danger of death or serious bodily harm.
 
 That wisdom applies in public as well in privage. In your home which includes the old English common law curtiledge (spelling is probably wrong) which also includes the area directly around hour house--exactly how big is somewhat vague but if you have a detached garage the area between the garage and the house would be included.
 
 I use Glaser Safety Slug ammo in revolvers to keep the overpenetration from being a problem. And they work for the primary purpose too.
 
 In autos I go with Cor-Bon which performs well without over penetration.
 
 Norm

In Texas we have a more liberal interpretation for domicile for rural areas.Rural areas,AFTER DARK,trespassers are pretty much paid for.They don't have to be threatening,stealing,or anything else besides "being there". Their prescence alone is enough to justify lethal force.
 
 If you run out of gas,wait 'til daylight to go ask to use the phone!

gene,
 
 Better yet. Use a cell phone.
 
 Even better still. Don't run out of gas. [Linked Image]

Norm

Gene, I think your legal analysis is correct as for criminal law. If the shooting was justified, and you hit your target, what happens to the bullet after that is not considered your responsibility in most jurisdictions. I believe this also applies even if you miss your intended target. The analysis still goes to justification, and only to justification.
 
 In civil law, a plaintiff might be able to get you on negligence for selecting a round which the reasonable prudent person would have anticipated might harm an innocent bystander due to over-penetration. That would be a question for the jury to decide.

Then I will settle for," Twelve judging rather than six carrying".

Hawk,
 
 That's what I was thinking.
 
 My brother is a Detective on the Indianapolis PD. He has 30 years on the force. In his younger more agressive days he managed to get into 4 shootings.
 All of which were investigated by multiple agencies including the FBI on the last two.
 
 After the investigations of his last shooting he was returned to duty. Later that year he was sued and the plaintiff (the mother of the deceased) was awarded $450,000. There was no logic to the award. After the virdict came in one of the city's lawyers said "I wonder where they (the jury) were all week."
 
 Civil liability can be tricky. Ask OJ. [Linked Image]

N

There is only one defense which is effective against all regulatory agencies- even the IRS - plantiff lawyers,ex-wive's lawyers,and any action calculated to take your money. That defense is abject poverty.
 
 I am not concerned with civil suits!

Gene,
 
 Not a bad position to be in. They can't take somethin'
 from nothin'. [Linked Image]

Fortunately, for my brother the damages awarded were actual damages according to the jury. The city pays actual damages but not punitive.
 
 If they'd hit Wayne with punitive, they'd have gotten nothing because that's exactly what he's got.
 
 N

"......freedom's just another word for...nothin' left to lose...."
 
 Name the song and singer - show your age. [Linked Image]

-FreeMe

Me and Bobbie MaGee. Lot of singers did it but one I remember best is Janis Joplin. Is that old enough for you? [Linked Image]

BCR

"Oh, Lord won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz." "All my friends drive Porches and I must make amends!"

BCR - you win the prize! (How 'bout a pair of used reading glasses [Linked Image]

)
 
 -FreeMe

T LEE - you get extra credit.
 
 -FreeMe

Just don't get me started on the real oldies and C&W like Patsey Kline, I was in LOVE!

The song was written by Kris Kristofferson and sung by him first.I WIN!!!!

Well Gene, that would certainly make you older than me. [Linked Image]

I first heard it performed by Janis - and I'm just guessing she did a better job of it...
 
 -FreeMe

TRH,
 
 Yesterday, a DNR Conservation Officer from the county north of us, brought in a ziplock bag with a seven inch diameter piece of deer hide in it to verify what it was shot with. The purpetrator of the infraction was carrying three firearms at the time he was caught in the act, a .44Magnum revolver, a 20 gauge slug gun and a 7mm rifle with scope.
 
 The entrance hole perfectly matched the 7mm bullet I slipped into it and the case goes to the Prosecutor's Office now, as it is illegal to shoot deer with a high power rifle in Indiana. I asked if there was an exit wound and was told there was none. That tells me the bullet expended all of it's energy internally and efficiently. It had also fragmented to the point where it was irretrievable. The deer had travelled only a few yards from where it had been poached, again a testimony to bullet design .
 
 We're all entitled to our own prefferences and opinions on what works best and how they accomplish the task at hand, and I'll stick to my Glock 19C and 23C with the more exotic bullets that don't exit to solve any potential disaster that heads my way.

one decent.45 costs as much as two comparable.357s...

Well,Boggy,I got to ruminating over my list of aqqauintences and there are some I would want to just barely shoot,so yesterday I bought a S&W model 410 in 40 cal.I'm still going to have my 41 mag handy for the majority.
 The new pistol fits real well in my carry vest.
 
 However,does any one make a belt holster for this model that any of y'all are particularly fond of?Them IWB types are not to be considered.By the time I get me in my levi's there ain't room for any company!

Hi guys. One of my favorite topics. I am very hard headed about this. I don't like putting up with the BS after a shooting, and I dislike burying my friends alot more. I can explain any death but my own - period.
 I like the idea of staying out of these things. Really. But, sometimes that option has been removed by others.
 Which one works best ? Coinsider the target and the conditions. A very emmotional situation. Vaguely similar to that huge buck breaking cover unexpectedly, but only vaguely. The big differnce, of course, is/are the threats to you.
 Add the wildcard. Some people are just dam# tough. Tough is very often brought on, or enhanced by, chemical help. Very often. And, he could have help with him.
 So which is best? Whatever you shoot best. The more powerful the better. Frankly, I'm not giving up penetration. Heavy clothing, cheap body armour, car doors, walls, and other things can interfere with the bullet getting to the bad guy, thus robbing it of some of it's abilities.
 The rule is, one to the solar plexus/heart area. If that doesn't do it, then one between the headlamps. Multiple hits in the body cavity rarely work. Particularly on druggies, and psychos.
 I'm with Gene and Boggy. I've got no time and can't afford to consider the possible victim beyond the bad guy. The Bad Guy must have all my attention. It has been proven time and again. Anything less than than 100% of your best, can easily result in a 2nd place award.
 Good luck, gentlemen. I shall pray that none of you will have to deal with such things. I can assure you they are not fun. E

I think Ken has explained his position precisely, and yet, the "energy" folks still haven't answered his basic question.
 
 How can a bullet that stays in the body cause more damage than the same bullet exiting?
 
 There IS such a thing as "interior" ballistics. A bullet entering the body immediately starts slowing down. As it loses velocity (thus energy) it's ability to cause damage is reduced. If it slows to a stop at some point in the body, it has been losing velocity (momentum) along it's path, and thus, causing less and less damage. It's slowed from, say 1200 fps to 0 fps. At 0 fps, this bullet isn't doing any more damage.
 
 Contrast that with the same bullet that exits, it has reached the other side of the body with velocity to spare. When it exits, it's still going 300 fps, thus, it was doing greater damage at the same point in the wound path as the first bullet.
 
 Now because this bullet exited at 300 fps you "energy" folks say that this remaining energy is wasted. Well, yes, but so what? Why do we care how much energy our bullet left in the body? Are we energy conservationists? It's NOT how much energy is "deposited", but how much damage is done. The second bullet caused more damage, so how is this a bad thing?

mattc, what you are not factoring in is that the same bullet cannot exit unless it has more energy to start with. We are not saying you should reduce the energy in order to have greater effect. We are saying, let's take every bit of energy we do have, and design the bullet so that ALL of that energy is dumped inside. That is to say, design it to cause maximum disruption as it passes through flesh and bone, while staying together enough to push well into the vital organs. If the bullet regularly passes all the way through, and keeps on going, the bullet was not designed right for this job. It held together too well, and didn't disrupt enough tissue.

The best fight stopper is Accuracy. Regardless of caliber used. Actually, at the ranges most gunfights occur, anything from a 22 LR, up, will put the stop to a fight.
 Mindset is another factor that drastically increases your chances in a gunfight. caliber and projectile are way down the list.

Let's not overlook cool confidence -- especially the level described by Mark Twain as "the calm confidence of a Christian with four aces" or the smiling confidence of relatively small Charlie O'Neil (long, charming story -- too long for here) who went smiling to meet a much larger, enraged man who was threatening immediate and unlimited bodily harm.
 
 With his beautiful smile and his home-made butcher knife, Charlie walked toward the giant who was stomping up the highway. Charlie pointed to the side of the road and answered the thug's threats with a quiet promise -- as if he were looking forward to it:
 
 "And I'm gonna hang your liver in that tree."
 
 Charlie ALWAYS carried either (or both) a PPK and a SIG and had bullet-puffed the shirtfronts of a few perps during his years as a Minneapolis cop. I suspect that he'd left the SIG home that morning -- and in any event, didn't hanker to be bothered by having to drag a tub of dead lard off the highway.
 
 Bill Jordan loved this when I told him, and he agreed with me that the deadliest threat -- what'd made the thug burn rubber off his boot heels, then his tires -- was not Charlie's huge knife but his smile.

I heartily concur Dr. Howell, it's 99% attitude and 1% tools at hand. I know this from being a Peace Officer from the early 60's and being 5'4" tall. I had very little trouble over the years as I always showed a willingness to mix it up if THEY wanted to. I don't care how intimidated I felt inside THEY never knew!

Gentlemen:
 This happens to be an area in which I have some practical knowledge. I worked in the ER of a Detroit hospital for 8 years and have seen, literally, hundreds of gunshot wounds of all types.
 By far, the most common wounds were those inflicted by .25 autos and .22 LR's, those being the weapons of choice among the local miscreants. Both rounds would ricochet within the person and do damage far in excess of what the caliber and bullet weight would suggest. However, the vicitim rarely expired immediately.
 Larger calibers like the 9mm or the .38/.357 were more effective in immediate incapacitation, but were very dependent on shot placement.
 The .40 S&W and the .45 ACP were pretty much the same story, shot placement was very important, bullet diameter a secondary consideration.
 The most effective "one shot stopper" that I have seen is a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot, but even that required good shot placement to be immediately fatal.
 Not to belabor the point, but the conclusion that I have drawn is that the caliber and type of handgun is nowhere near as important as the will and skill to use it effectively.
 A quick anecdote; EMS brought in one very dead individual that had a group of 5 bullet holes directly over his heart that could be covered with a coffee cup. Upon seeing the group, I inquired to the police, "Which one of you did this?" Their reply was that it wasn't a cop, but a homeowner. It seems that the decedent had broken into a house in one of the neighborhoods that was in the process of declining into a war zone. The 69 year old homeowner, hearing a noise, stepped out of his bedroom into the hallway and spied the intruder. He told the individual, "Get out of my house!" The soon-to-be-room-temperature burglar replied, "F--k you old man, get on the floor and tell me where the money at!"
 At this, the man produced an S&W .38SPL revolver and proceeded to shoot at the man 6 times. Each shot hit the man in the chest, staggering him back a little farther until on the 5th shot, he fell backwards. Unfortunately, the homeowner was already into the 6th trigger stroke and fired the 6th round over the burglar's shoulder into the wall behind him. The cop that I talked to said that this greatly distressed the homeowner as now he had to patch and paint the hole in the wall.
 Further investigation revealed that the homeowner had been a pistol instructor for US Army Officer Candidate School following his service in WWII. A perfect example of will and skill. No charges were filed
 It was one of the few times that I was happy to tag and bag a corpse.

Absolute agreement from me ebd. It doesn't matter nearly as much what the bullet is as where it is. Sometimes pure luck plays a big hand. I saw this with my own eyes and I still don't believe it. If someone told it to me I'd call them a liar but, as I said I saw it. Local bad boy was hassling a lady friend and things went sour fast. She outs a 38 Special, PUTS IT AGAINST HIS CHEST, and cranks off three 158 gr round nose. He lived. Took him a hell of a long time to get well and he is a lot more docile now but he lived. You just never know.
 
 BCR

BCR you ol' Dog!
Good ta hear from ya boy! As you may have guessed, I too have an opinion on this subject and truly agree with Ken that through and through is better for any varmints with 2 or 4 legs which you encounter that need shooting. Aside from the obvious liability questions, I see no other reasons that would support the non over penetration theories and a number of compelling reasons to use a weapon that penetrates through and through.

This list starts with the fact that two holes are simply harder to plug up than one and that most folks can't reach around far enough to get the job done when already shot through and through. Second, two holes bleed out faster than one, thereby shortening the shootee's remaining time of consciousness. Thirdly, as the FBI & L.A. Policae found out in the great Florida shootout fiasco and again in the great Kalifornia bank robbery shootout, THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR SUFFICIENT PENETRATION OF INANIMATE OBJECTS / BODY ARMOR. No these are not standard situations that you run into every day, but you sure will be hurting if you do, and there ain't no scum sucking lawyer that's gonna call "time out" for ya to switch guns in one of these free for alls.

Ya pays yer money and takes yer chances and that gentlemen is why I carry a .44 Mag and a 20" cyl. bore 16ga pump shotgun backing up a coupla buckshot rounds with slugs here in Virginia and no I don't have no "Dirty Harry" complex. It's just in my experience that these tools are about as effective as anyone can get around these parts for taking care of business.

Flower Child

P.S. Yes BCR, I am the Flower Child from Shooters and there may be a whole bunch of us refugees headed this way by 1/1/2003 as Shooters is closing down for good.

Flower old bud, Man am I glad to see you. Missed you and the bunch on handguns over at shooters but not enough to stand the gaff over there with the nit pickey clowns that ran the place. Welcome to the fire. Good place this, more into hunting than pistol toting for social purposes but still a very good place.
How's your hammer hanging and the world been treating you pretty good since last we yacked? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BCR

This question is easily resolved with real world examples. A full metal jacket 9mm will make two holes, while a 125 grain hollowpoint will make one. There is no comparison as to stopping power. Same energy, different penetration, different stopping power. The hollowpoint will stop an attack faster than a FMJ, so long at it has enough energy to drive to the vitals, and with proper design, it will.

BCR,
Well, a lot has gone on since we last talked. Me Da passed away 7/4/2001. Me Mom is still living (with us) and is in surprisingly good health so far these days. We got out of the cattle bidness for good and only have a coupla pets, so Snow White and myself can take things a little easier. What's been shak'n with you?

Flower Child

Hawkeye,
Okay, let's use a real world example of apples n' apples and not .357's vs. 9mm's (magnum SJHP vs.non magnum, Military / Geneva Convention approved FMJ) so as not to be handicapped. Let's use your .357 Mag 125gr SJHP @ 1250 fps and my .44Mag reload 240gr SJHP @ 1490 fps. The .357mag makes one .60 cal hole and my .44mag makes two .85 cal holes. Personally, either gun will get the job done real quick. Asthetically, one hole is as good as two with a .357 mag, but I believe that the .44mag with two .85 cal holes through 'n through would tend to get the job done a little quicker. What do you think?

Flower Child

Hawkeye,
Actually that is a little bit much of an exaggeration. The entrance wounds would be the respective calibers of the rounds used but the exit holes would be horrendous. Still, in the real world, there ain't a whole lot of difference in practical terms until you start shooting really big varmints.

Flower Child

How 'bout a single flechette round out of a M-79 "Blooper"!

I mean a 147 caliber entrance and a 413 caliber exit, and no I did not forget the decimal points!

Actually given the choice the best trade off for size and power is the good old .45ACP with Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shoks. IMHO

Re. the Marshall and Sanow Report on stopping power.I'd seen their 1988 and 92 data and pretty much took it as gospel,until an hour or so ago when I did a search looking for more info.I think the link that MM posted was from their 96 report,and I was surprised by the strides that the 9mm cartridge had made in just a few years.In previous data it had ranked lower than all the other semi-autos,and even lower than the 38 special!In the search I could'nt come up with anything good about their data,and even found reveiws of their book by experts that they had quoted and all said they either outright lied about receiving data or grossly misrepresented data they did receive.Left out data that did'nt support their findings,and on and on.<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />Posted just a few of them below. Bummed me out,I'v quoted their conclusions more than once ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Jeff
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm
http://firearmstactical.com/briefs1.htm
http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/marshall_sanow.html

I rely strictly on what I have seen "real world" in 30+ years in the military and as a Peace Officer and paramedic. I'll take the .45 Hydra-Shok over anything else out there if given the choice of what to reach for. They work! The .357s right there with the 158 SWCHP "FBI" load and the newer +p 9mm's ain't too shabby either, but I still prefere .38 Super to the 9mm.

I have seen people shot with 9mm ball treated and released, while .45's put em in hospital if not the ground! The .357 is as effective as the fragible .45's IMHO and in some cases more so.

Flower Child, in order to make the comparisons fair they have to be the same caliber and the same energy (as in my example, both rounds being 9mm, not one being .357 Magnum and the other being .44 Magnum, as in your example). The only thing that can vary is bullet design. Which would have better through and through penetration, a 125 FMJ 9mm or a 125 grain JHP going at the same speed (say 1200 fps)? Now, which would you think would have the better stopping power? You have now answered your own question, and we've kept the comparisons within the apple species. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Flower, Sorry to hear about your Dad, mine's been gone ten years Christmas and I still miss him. Mom in a home. Physically pretty good for ninety two but increasingly the cogs are stripping on the think wheel. I'm still trying to squeeze a dollar out of cattle but can see the end when I turn it over to the boys.

Guys Flower Child is an old bud from Shooters. Make him welcome. There were some good folks on the old SD board there and he's one of them. He is a little goofy and opionated at times <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> but then ain't we all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

BCR

Hawkeye,
I guess I wasn't real good at getting my point across. My point was that the .357 mag had a non FMJ bullet that expanded and the 9mm did not. I don't believe you are talking apples and apples either until you take that same .357 mag bullet and drive it fast enough to make an exit wound. Possibly by putting it in a .357 Maximum cartridge. Only then would we truly know what had occurred. However, like most scientific inquiries, I suspect it would only raise more questions since the bullet would then in all likelihood disintegrate or severely fragment.

Fact is, life ain't fair and stupidity is often rewarded with a gravestone. This being so, I'll stick with my old .44mag which creates entrance and exit holes and leave the other fancy stuff for you guys to work out. It ain't high tech but it sure is real effective. As for stopping power and other useless lines of debate, they only exist in someone's imagination. Real world reality is that if they don't stop , you shoot 'em again a coupla more times, since there just ain't no way to scientifically account for all of the other variables in any given incident and it's too late to change guns.

Flower Child

Thanks BCR,
I'll try to deserve the endorsement and not tee anyone off yet. Man the cattle bidness sure went to hell right after I quit. I sure do admire the fact that you are still at it but at 52, I'm sure glad I could retire. Snow White's happier too. She was saying the last coupla years that since I ain't got no future cattlemen in the family, I should just sell out. Well, I still ain't at that point yet and Da left me a boatload of money so I wouldn't have to sell out and I could take care of Mom. Now don't that almost make me just useless or what? Anyway, it sure feels good to be able to decide to do whatever you want to do vs. what you have to do most of the time. Keep your feet in the stirrups as long as you are able.

Flower Child

Flower Child, ok, let's use the .44 Magnum then. Same velocity, same weight. One being a 240 grain FMJ and the other being a 240 grain JHP. Which do you think will have the best stopping power on average, assuming that both hit center of mass, missing the CNS? Let us imagine that we have ten volunteers to be shot in the chest at the same range. Five will be shot with FMJ and five with JHP. Only problem with this is that with the .44 Magnum, you will get through and through penetration with both. Let's change this to 400 pound black bears, which are a more appropriate target for a .44 magnum anyway. Now line them up and shoot. Now ask the question above. On average, which will have better stopping power in your opinion? I think we will agree on which would have the better penetration.

Actually, in defense of FC (which he does not need) when using a .44 mag it is moot, they will stop just about ANY two legged varmint with any available ammo. When you start talking game animals, especially dangerous ones that will eat you, I'm reaching for a 12 GA with Breneke slugs or my 45-70 rifle!

On the two legged ones the .357 or .45 acp is as good as it gets in my book, you CAN get repeat shots in fast! Shoot till they drop and reload and see what happens next. Heck I carry a .32acp loaded with Gold Dot's when being very descreet about carry, can I shoot you with that little Colt? It goes bang ten times before I have to change sticks.

1 shot stops are the stuff of gun writers not gun fighters, trust me, the real world is far from perfect and is ruled by Mrs. Murphy's son!

T Lee, I tend to agree with you there. Nothing beats the .45 ACP Hydrashok or the 125 grain .357 Magnum on two legged varmints, and repeat shots increase the chance of them going down each time you fire. What we are talking about is purely theoretical, for the fun of it. In the real world, five quick pops with your .32 ACP with Gold Dots is going to put 99% of bad guys down fast. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I know about theoretical and it can be fun, I just never like to lose sight of reality. Did too much of that in my youth! LOL

I am still gonna shoot em till they fall and then reload! I'll relax as the body is loaded into the ambulance, maybe!

Hawkeye,
Now I know I ain't being clear because the correct analogy would be to have two FMJ bullets. The first one is fired at reduced velocity and stops before exiting, thereby producing a one hole wound channel. The second bullet is fired at a somewhat greater velocity and goes through and through producing a two hole wound channel. Now all things being equal and if Mrs. Murphy's son doesn't show up, which do you think is more lethal? All very hypothetical and scientific of course. It would never pass the sniff test however, as we are both just full of $H!T anyway. Ha! Ha!

Flower Child

I'll agree with T LEE on this one, If I have to shoot a perp. It won't be just one round. I figure to shoot 'till he/she goes DOWN!! All the one shot stats won't mean a thing at that moment!
VB

Flower Child, speak for yourself. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Of course more energy, all things being equal, will have a greater effect. I don't think either of us would disagree with that statement. All else being equal, two holes are better than one. The original question, I thought, had to do with bullet design, not velocity. I.e., bullets of the same caliber designed to expand and expend all their energy inside, destroying tissue, vs those designed to make two holes, i.e., expend part of their energy in a brick wall behind the attacker, having done less tissue damage going through.

Hawkeye,
Agh! Now you've got it laddy! There lies the rub! And just which expanding, leaves all of the energy in the target, bullet design do you think can fairly be counted on to make a second hole in support of my theory without becoming a frangible round? Further, without a velocity difference, two rounds that are true equals of each other will not produce different results now will they? This raises the inevitable question of which bullet design do we use to test with? It's not fair nor equal for you to have limited me to only FMJ designs while saving all of the expanding designs for yourself.

Now suppose, for the sake of argument (get your hip waders on because my BS gets really deep here!), you get your expanding, expends all of it's imparted energy, bullet design to test with? Also suppose that I get to pick my own design for a penetrating round, no longer being limited to FMJ rounds only, and I pick a design which is fired from a sabot, that has a Titainium penetrator tip and extends spirally cut, Titainium, razor sharp, broadhead arrow style cutting blades like an electric drill bit, from the side of the round after it is fired and it is under the influence of the rotation imparted by the rifling in the weapon, thereby assuring that the tissue involved with the impact zone was neatly drilled out like an apple core as the round passes through instead of merely being displaced? Also, suppose that this same design with these blades extended could increase the caliber of the entrance hole of the projectile by a third (33 percent) and what was a 40 something caliber round is now a 60 something caliber round? And finally, suppose that because of the Titainium tip and Titainium spiral cutting blades drill effect, this round could penetrate all forms of body armor like an apple corer? Which round would you pick?

Flower Child

P.S. To the others (TLee & Friends). Keep on shooting sounds like a winner to me too! See my earlier post.

FC, you make a good point there. I used to have some specialty rounds that were essentially brass cookie cutters. In place of a conventional bullet, there was a brass bullet which was basically a brass ring with a plastic plug that flew away after firing it (it plugged the bottom and top, and then either disintigrated or flew off after firing), and the maker advertized them as being able to penetrate all soft body armor, and I believe it. It also had the characteristic of being both penetrationg and tissue destroying, because, as you say, it did not simply displace tissue, it cut a .355 caliber hole through tissue and bone, causing massive trauma. Didn't have much weight (but it was fast), so it probably would not penetrate a lot of bone, but I liked the idea in general as a general purpose self defense round. If they are still made, I don't know by whom. I would sure like to know where to get them if they are still made though. I still have a few rounds in .380 ACP that I bought in the early 1980s. They have black plastic tips, and the body of the bullet is made of brass in the shape of a .355 caliber ring.

French Arcane ammo??

Many interesting points. This topic always gets a lot of attention on any Internet forum.

There's a million theories about stopping power. Real world results vary a lot depending on individual situation - the perp's build, state of mind, drugs, the caliber, the bullet, and so on.

To quote Dr. W. Edwards Deming, "In God we trust, all others must bring data". The data from the real world is, the 125 gr .357, the 115 gr 9mm +P+, and the best .45 ACP hollowpoints are all 90+% effective.

I keep a .45 cal 1911 Colt loaded with Federal Hydra-Shoks, the FBI load. I use 8 rd mags + 1 in the chamber. Totally reliable, 90+% stops, and I can control it in rapid fire.

The other advantage that no one here has yet mentioned is, when the thug sees the large .45 cal hole in the barrel he has more incentive to run. Scaring the bad guy away so you don't have to shoot him is the best stop of all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I was once told by a perp that we were not fair, we had forty fives! If thats what it takes to get their attention, I am all for it. Better than having to do all that damn paper work after a shoot.

I want to throw in a couple of issues reguarding stopping power. First of all, an adequate amount of energy needs to be transferred to the attacker, 500 foot pounds appears to be the practical limit before deminishing returns sets in. Through and through penetration means the bullet is still doing damage along the entire line of travel. I personally like the same approach as used on dangerous game, have enough energy to break the pelvis, spine or skull if these happen to be inline with the path of the bullet. If an attacker looses mobility because the spine, pelvis or cranium are fully penetrated, then we are adding to the soft tissue damage. In rare cases an arm, leg, shouder joint, etc. obstruct the vital areas. The bullet should be able to penetrate a bony obstruction and still do soft tissue damage. The comparison of the .223 , 12 guage with rifle slugs, and .308 illustrate a point. More accuracy, as in the .223 as a sniper round, equals or even exceeds the stoppping power of two very relibable centerfire firearms. The 100% figures have to be taken with a grain of salt, but success is success. Marshall disreguarded any direct hits to the head in his study, since they tend to be close to 100% stoppers too, if the brain or spinal cord is seriously injured, no matter what the caliber, as long as it penetrates. I suspect a .22 Long Rifle, not an especially powerful round, would do very well for head shots, assuming this were the only variable under consideration, but here we are talking assassination, not self defense. No handgun gets a 100% rating, so tactics like situational awareness (no tunnel vision), seeking cover, multiple shots if appropriate (who says the attacker is alone?), moving, reloading, etc. all need to be part of the equation. As one (Texas Ranger?) said, "It's hard to stop a man who knows he is right and keeps on coming!"

"Looking away instead of making eye contact."
Norm,
What is the advantage of this behavior? If they look like trouble, wouldn't you want to keep an eye on them? It this a proven de-esculator?
Carson

Carson,

Direct eye contact is a challenge and can be the factor that causes the situation to deteriorate.

Besides if you want to watch something watch his chest or hands for subtle movements that betray intensions. The eyes can't kill you but the hands can.

The temptation is to make the challenge and stare the guy in the eye. But the smart person wants the situation not to become violent or deadly.

Good questions. Thanks,

Being a student of medicine, you pop anybody in the diaphram
with a expanding bullet from 125 gr. to 230 gr., traveling 800
to 1300 fps. the fight is over!

MM;

If I read the link correctly, more folks, and a LOT more folks are getting much mo better results from the 357 magnum than any other.

But isn't that study more than a little controversial?

Yes it is controversial.

I have never heard of any handgun caliber that is reliable enough to not dictate training to execute a two-shot drill.

I say pick whatever makes you grin, and train with it. Situational awareness, good tactics, accurate fire, and a cool head are the real advantage in a gunfight.

I grew up with 1911's and am very comfortable with them, thus when i got my CCW i chose to carry a 1911. Over the years my guns have progressed, but when it comes to personal defense i would just assume to make a big hole and hit hard. I carried the .45 230 gr hydrashock for years, but when federal brought out the 165 gr hydrashock in .45 several Le/swat guys i know went to that load in their personal defense guns. this peaked my interest so i did some research and found that not only does he 165 gr load go a it faster then the 230 gr load but does so flying flater and hitting a bit harder. i have complete confidence in the hydrashock design, the 1911 platform and my abilities with it, and that is what you will find on my hip day in day out. its easily conceled, quick into action, accurate and easily controlled.

I hope to never have to use it but like my LE buddy says " I would rather be judged by 12 then carried by 6"

If it was a bad breath range, pull-point and press gunfight I'd prefer my 357 mag. An auto has no advantage there. Second choice my 45 ACP. Generally a fight would probably be that close if it was yourself you are defending. The luxury of careful aim would not likely be there, it would be pure low point instinctive.GENERALLY if it was any further than that, you are under an affirmative duty to retreat. The 357 magnum wins my vote although when I was on the job I had to carry what I was issued whether I liked it or not. We had 3 guns during my service. 38 S&W mod 10, Glock 17, then Glock 23. The 40 cal wasn't too bad. 155gr Win Silvertip issue ammo. What you feel confident with is what you carry when you have the option of choice. Good luck fellas.

j two dogs,

You might want to do some research into your theory.

Leon

gene williams,

In the reverse order you have the calibers listed.

Take care,

Leon

MontanaMarine,

Have you perused the FBI ammo tests? There is some pretty damn useful info contained therein!

Also, that link is not very informative. Reference effectiveness of various projectiles, what does the percentage measure?

Adios,

Leon Phelps