Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Fight Stopper ??

The best fight stopper is Accuracy. Regardless of caliber used. Actually, at the ranges most gunfights occur, anything from a 22 LR, up, will put the stop to a fight.
<br>Mindset is another factor that drastically increases your chances in a gunfight. caliber and projectile are way down the list.

Let's not overlook cool confidence -- especially the level described by Mark Twain as "the calm confidence of a Christian with four aces" or the smiling confidence of relatively small Charlie O'Neil (long, charming story -- too long for here) who went smiling to meet a much larger, enraged man who was threatening immediate and unlimited bodily harm.
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<br>With his beautiful smile and his home-made butcher knife, Charlie walked toward the giant who was stomping up the highway. Charlie pointed to the side of the road and answered the thug's threats with a quiet promise -- as if he were looking forward to it:
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<br>"And I'm gonna hang your liver in that tree."
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<br>Charlie ALWAYS carried either (or both) a PPK and a SIG and had bullet-puffed the shirtfronts of a few perps during his years as a Minneapolis cop. I suspect that he'd left the SIG home that morning -- and in any event, didn't hanker to be bothered by having to drag a tub of dead lard off the highway.
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<br>Bill Jordan loved this when I told him, and he agreed with me that the deadliest threat -- what'd made the thug burn rubber off his boot heels, then his tires -- was not Charlie's huge knife but his smile.

I heartily concur Dr. Howell, it's 99% attitude and 1% tools at hand. I know this from being a Peace Officer from the early 60's and being 5'4" tall. I had very little trouble over the years as I always showed a willingness to mix it up if THEY wanted to. I don't care how intimidated I felt inside THEY never knew!

Gentlemen:
<br> This happens to be an area in which I have some practical knowledge. I worked in the ER of a Detroit hospital for 8 years and have seen, literally, hundreds of gunshot wounds of all types.
<br> By far, the most common wounds were those inflicted by .25 autos and .22 LR's, those being the weapons of choice among the local miscreants. Both rounds would ricochet within the person and do damage far in excess of what the caliber and bullet weight would suggest. However, the vicitim rarely expired immediately.
<br> Larger calibers like the 9mm or the .38/.357 were more effective in immediate incapacitation, but were very dependent on shot placement.
<br> The .40 S&W and the .45 ACP were pretty much the same story, shot placement was very important, bullet diameter a secondary consideration.
<br> The most effective "one shot stopper" that I have seen is a 12 gauge with 00 buckshot, but even that required good shot placement to be immediately fatal.
<br> Not to belabor the point, but the conclusion that I have drawn is that the caliber and type of handgun is nowhere near as important as the will and skill to use it effectively.
<br> A quick anecdote; EMS brought in one very dead individual that had a group of 5 bullet holes directly over his heart that could be covered with a coffee cup. Upon seeing the group, I inquired to the police, "Which one of you did this?" Their reply was that it wasn't a cop, but a homeowner. It seems that the decedent had broken into a house in one of the neighborhoods that was in the process of declining into a war zone. The 69 year old homeowner, hearing a noise, stepped out of his bedroom into the hallway and spied the intruder. He told the individual, "Get out of my house!" The soon-to-be-room-temperature burglar replied, "F--k you old man, get on the floor and tell me where the money at!"
<br> At this, the man produced an S&W .38SPL revolver and proceeded to shoot at the man 6 times. Each shot hit the man in the chest, staggering him back a little farther until on the 5th shot, he fell backwards. Unfortunately, the homeowner was already into the 6th trigger stroke and fired the 6th round over the burglar's shoulder into the wall behind him. The cop that I talked to said that this greatly distressed the homeowner as now he had to patch and paint the hole in the wall.
<br> Further investigation revealed that the homeowner had been a pistol instructor for US Army Officer Candidate School following his service in WWII. A perfect example of will and skill. No charges were filed
<br> It was one of the few times that I was happy to tag and bag a corpse.

Absolute agreement from me ebd. It doesn't matter nearly as much what the bullet is as where it is. Sometimes pure luck plays a big hand. I saw this with my own eyes and I still don't believe it. If someone told it to me I'd call them a liar but, as I said I saw it. Local bad boy was hassling a lady friend and things went sour fast. She outs a 38 Special, PUTS IT AGAINST HIS CHEST, and cranks off three 158 gr round nose. He lived. Took him a hell of a long time to get well and he is a lot more docile now but he lived. You just never know.
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<br>BCR

BCR you ol' Dog!
Good ta hear from ya boy! As you may have guessed, I too have an opinion on this subject and truly agree with Ken that through and through is better for any varmints with 2 or 4 legs which you encounter that need shooting. Aside from the obvious liability questions, I see no other reasons that would support the non over penetration theories and a number of compelling reasons to use a weapon that penetrates through and through.

This list starts with the fact that two holes are simply harder to plug up than one and that most folks can't reach around far enough to get the job done when already shot through and through. Second, two holes bleed out faster than one, thereby shortening the shootee's remaining time of consciousness. Thirdly, as the FBI & L.A. Policae found out in the great Florida shootout fiasco and again in the great Kalifornia bank robbery shootout, THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR SUFFICIENT PENETRATION OF INANIMATE OBJECTS / BODY ARMOR. No these are not standard situations that you run into every day, but you sure will be hurting if you do, and there ain't no scum sucking lawyer that's gonna call "time out" for ya to switch guns in one of these free for alls.

Ya pays yer money and takes yer chances and that gentlemen is why I carry a .44 Mag and a 20" cyl. bore 16ga pump shotgun backing up a coupla buckshot rounds with slugs here in Virginia and no I don't have no "Dirty Harry" complex. It's just in my experience that these tools are about as effective as anyone can get around these parts for taking care of business.

Flower Child

P.S. Yes BCR, I am the Flower Child from Shooters and there may be a whole bunch of us refugees headed this way by 1/1/2003 as Shooters is closing down for good.

Flower old bud, Man am I glad to see you. Missed you and the bunch on handguns over at shooters but not enough to stand the gaff over there with the nit pickey clowns that ran the place. Welcome to the fire. Good place this, more into hunting than pistol toting for social purposes but still a very good place.
How's your hammer hanging and the world been treating you pretty good since last we yacked? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

BCR

This question is easily resolved with real world examples. A full metal jacket 9mm will make two holes, while a 125 grain hollowpoint will make one. There is no comparison as to stopping power. Same energy, different penetration, different stopping power. The hollowpoint will stop an attack faster than a FMJ, so long at it has enough energy to drive to the vitals, and with proper design, it will.

BCR,
Well, a lot has gone on since we last talked. Me Da passed away 7/4/2001. Me Mom is still living (with us) and is in surprisingly good health so far these days. We got out of the cattle bidness for good and only have a coupla pets, so Snow White and myself can take things a little easier. What's been shak'n with you?

Flower Child

Hawkeye,
Okay, let's use a real world example of apples n' apples and not .357's vs. 9mm's (magnum SJHP vs.non magnum, Military / Geneva Convention approved FMJ) so as not to be handicapped. Let's use your .357 Mag 125gr SJHP @ 1250 fps and my .44Mag reload 240gr SJHP @ 1490 fps. The .357mag makes one .60 cal hole and my .44mag makes two .85 cal holes. Personally, either gun will get the job done real quick. Asthetically, one hole is as good as two with a .357 mag, but I believe that the .44mag with two .85 cal holes through 'n through would tend to get the job done a little quicker. What do you think?

Flower Child

Hawkeye,
Actually that is a little bit much of an exaggeration. The entrance wounds would be the respective calibers of the rounds used but the exit holes would be horrendous. Still, in the real world, there ain't a whole lot of difference in practical terms until you start shooting really big varmints.

Flower Child

How 'bout a single flechette round out of a M-79 "Blooper"!

I mean a 147 caliber entrance and a 413 caliber exit, and no I did not forget the decimal points!

Actually given the choice the best trade off for size and power is the good old .45ACP with Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shoks. IMHO

Re. the Marshall and Sanow Report on stopping power.I'd seen their 1988 and 92 data and pretty much took it as gospel,until an hour or so ago when I did a search looking for more info.I think the link that MM posted was from their 96 report,and I was surprised by the strides that the 9mm cartridge had made in just a few years.In previous data it had ranked lower than all the other semi-autos,and even lower than the 38 special!In the search I could'nt come up with anything good about their data,and even found reveiws of their book by experts that they had quoted and all said they either outright lied about receiving data or grossly misrepresented data they did receive.Left out data that did'nt support their findings,and on and on.<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />Posted just a few of them below. Bummed me out,I'v quoted their conclusions more than once ! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
Jeff
http://www.firearmstactical.com/marshall-sanow-discrepancies.htm
http://firearmstactical.com/briefs1.htm
http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/marshall_sanow.html

I rely strictly on what I have seen "real world" in 30+ years in the military and as a Peace Officer and paramedic. I'll take the .45 Hydra-Shok over anything else out there if given the choice of what to reach for. They work! The .357s right there with the 158 SWCHP "FBI" load and the newer +p 9mm's ain't too shabby either, but I still prefere .38 Super to the 9mm.

I have seen people shot with 9mm ball treated and released, while .45's put em in hospital if not the ground! The .357 is as effective as the fragible .45's IMHO and in some cases more so.

Flower Child, in order to make the comparisons fair they have to be the same caliber and the same energy (as in my example, both rounds being 9mm, not one being .357 Magnum and the other being .44 Magnum, as in your example). The only thing that can vary is bullet design. Which would have better through and through penetration, a 125 FMJ 9mm or a 125 grain JHP going at the same speed (say 1200 fps)? Now, which would you think would have the better stopping power? You have now answered your own question, and we've kept the comparisons within the apple species. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Flower, Sorry to hear about your Dad, mine's been gone ten years Christmas and I still miss him. Mom in a home. Physically pretty good for ninety two but increasingly the cogs are stripping on the think wheel. I'm still trying to squeeze a dollar out of cattle but can see the end when I turn it over to the boys.

Guys Flower Child is an old bud from Shooters. Make him welcome. There were some good folks on the old SD board there and he's one of them. He is a little goofy and opionated at times <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> but then ain't we all. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

BCR

Hawkeye,
I guess I wasn't real good at getting my point across. My point was that the .357 mag had a non FMJ bullet that expanded and the 9mm did not. I don't believe you are talking apples and apples either until you take that same .357 mag bullet and drive it fast enough to make an exit wound. Possibly by putting it in a .357 Maximum cartridge. Only then would we truly know what had occurred. However, like most scientific inquiries, I suspect it would only raise more questions since the bullet would then in all likelihood disintegrate or severely fragment.

Fact is, life ain't fair and stupidity is often rewarded with a gravestone. This being so, I'll stick with my old .44mag which creates entrance and exit holes and leave the other fancy stuff for you guys to work out. It ain't high tech but it sure is real effective. As for stopping power and other useless lines of debate, they only exist in someone's imagination. Real world reality is that if they don't stop , you shoot 'em again a coupla more times, since there just ain't no way to scientifically account for all of the other variables in any given incident and it's too late to change guns.

Flower Child

Thanks BCR,
I'll try to deserve the endorsement and not tee anyone off yet. Man the cattle bidness sure went to hell right after I quit. I sure do admire the fact that you are still at it but at 52, I'm sure glad I could retire. Snow White's happier too. She was saying the last coupla years that since I ain't got no future cattlemen in the family, I should just sell out. Well, I still ain't at that point yet and Da left me a boatload of money so I wouldn't have to sell out and I could take care of Mom. Now don't that almost make me just useless or what? Anyway, it sure feels good to be able to decide to do whatever you want to do vs. what you have to do most of the time. Keep your feet in the stirrups as long as you are able.

Flower Child

Flower Child, ok, let's use the .44 Magnum then. Same velocity, same weight. One being a 240 grain FMJ and the other being a 240 grain JHP. Which do you think will have the best stopping power on average, assuming that both hit center of mass, missing the CNS? Let us imagine that we have ten volunteers to be shot in the chest at the same range. Five will be shot with FMJ and five with JHP. Only problem with this is that with the .44 Magnum, you will get through and through penetration with both. Let's change this to 400 pound black bears, which are a more appropriate target for a .44 magnum anyway. Now line them up and shoot. Now ask the question above. On average, which will have better stopping power in your opinion? I think we will agree on which would have the better penetration.

Actually, in defense of FC (which he does not need) when using a .44 mag it is moot, they will stop just about ANY two legged varmint with any available ammo. When you start talking game animals, especially dangerous ones that will eat you, I'm reaching for a 12 GA with Breneke slugs or my 45-70 rifle!

On the two legged ones the .357 or .45 acp is as good as it gets in my book, you CAN get repeat shots in fast! Shoot till they drop and reload and see what happens next. Heck I carry a .32acp loaded with Gold Dot's when being very descreet about carry, can I shoot you with that little Colt? It goes bang ten times before I have to change sticks.

1 shot stops are the stuff of gun writers not gun fighters, trust me, the real world is far from perfect and is ruled by Mrs. Murphy's son!