I'm not very knowledgeable about these and although I've owned quite a few through the years I own no handguns presently.

Am scouring about for a good def-tact handgun. I'm a lefty so the safety is a consideration. I also would like a laser sighting system of some type. I was thinking auto- but I guess there might be some wheelguns that would fit the bill too.

I'm wide open and looking for recommendations. What would your top three choices look like?

Thanks much,
George

Get yourself a Smith & Wesson Model 10 with a Crimson Trace laser grip installed, buy yourself a few Safariland speed loaders, have a smith slick up the action for you, keep it loaded with +p 158 grain LSW HPs (the FBI load), practice a lot with the cheap stuff and the speed loaders, and you're all set.

Springfield XD... your choice of calibers 9mm, 40sw, 45 acp

Barrel lengths of 3", 4", 5"

http://www.springfield-armory.com/xd.php

No safety (safe action trigger, similar to Glock) so it's Lefty Friendly. Fabulous pistol.
I own a 4" service model in 40 SW & a 5" tactical model in 9mm
I love them both!!!

Good luck
Mark

George, there are so many quality makes and models of handguns available today it's a tough choice. Most of the manufacturers these days compete hard to earn their share of the market, and they have gotten very good at building reliable and affordable models. If ease of carrying is not a consideration, and it's just a stay at home handgun, full size models will generally give better control and accuracy than compact ones. The most important factor is to choose a handgun with enough stopping power that you are comfortable with and shoot well. Ask your buddies to bring along their's and spend some time at the range, if that isnt possible, find a range that rents handguns, a few dollars spent making that selection is well worth it. Hope you find one that suits you well.

+1... this is pretty solid advise!

#1-S&W model 19 IN 357 MAG

#2-1911 45 ACP

#3-Glock 45 ACP

BMT

I'm liking the Colt Defender in .45.....nothing like big holes in bad guys.

There are more than three that will assuredly fill your bill. For self-defense, I would recommend using the largest tactical caliber with which you're most comfortable.


Merry Christmas,

M

I have a Kimber TLE/RL II and Glock 21SF you're welcome to try out if you'd like....

I guess a big question is... how comfortable are you with handguns? If you admit not a lot of knowledge, and not presently owning a handgun (though having some in the past), your comfort level with different handguns could make a very important difference. No offense meant, but comfort and knowledge can mean the difference between getting in the fight in time, or fumbling with unfamiliar controls.

Myself, I love a nice 1911, but admittedly, they are not for everybody ("cocked and locked" makes some nervous, you must remember to take the safety off, etc). A close second for me is a Glock (but again, not for everyone with "no safety" [yeah, I know, and agree, but some like a lever or something that they can "see"]), and even so, it's a bit more attractive for a home defense than daily wear if you're not comfortable with the Safe Action safety.

But for somebody who's not comfortable and proficient with autoloaders, I'd have to recommend any flavor of reliable revolver. You don't need a safety, cause you KNOW when you're pulling through that trigger stroke, so it's always ready to go into instant action, and failure to fire drills are easy... keep pulling the trigger again and again, nothing to clear. And, being a lefty is a non-issue with a revolver...

a good 4 inch barreled Smith and Wesson revolver that has been worked over by a competent gunsmith in 357 caliber and a set of crimson trace laser grips cannot be beat for saftey and reliability. That said I would sure as hell not light off a 357 in my house at night especially if I wanted to see or hear again...loaded with a reasonable 38 special load despite what the macho men say would be better on your eyes/ears and reduce the chance shooting thru 2-3 of your neighbors houses. When you pull that trigger you own or are responsible for anything the bullet touches. Personally I like the 45ACP but I have been shooting one since I was 23 years old, the wheelgun despite its being denigrated by the latest gun rag guru's simply works.

The revolver can lay loaded in the dresser drawer for years, heck decades, and still work beautifully when it has to.

An auto has springs that can/will weaken over time.

FWIW, my wife and I have both. She has a S&W 16-4 .32 H&R Magnum on her side of the bed, and carries a Kimber Ultra Eclipse .45ACP. I carry a Glock 29, and am putting another wheelgun to my side of the bed; likely a Ruger GP100 .357.

For simplicity sake, the revolver wins, every time.

Would recommend that instead of buying something that you may end up finding isn't what you need, contact the NRA and see if there is a personal Protection in the Home Course given in your area. In addition to helping you select a firearm they will also teach you how to use it and the laws of self-defense in your state...

Bob

George,

I suggest a Sig P220 45 ACP. Order yours with Sig's own night-sites.

www.sigsauer.com

AD

I had a Sig 229 at bedside for years loaded with Black Talons. I always found myself shooting something else when practicing. When I finally got around to using the Sig, it wouldn't feed reliably. I feared that the magazine spring had weakened with time. Replaced it with a Python, and sleep comfortably (practice with the python too).
Don

I am comfortable with handguns just don't have the tech or historical knowledge I do of rifles and somewhat less of shotguns.

I've had a plethora of 22, auto- and wheelguns and Rugers from 357 to 44 incl the 41.

AD, my last handgun was a Sig P220 45 and I regret letting it go. I do like 1911-style 45s for their "slabsidedness" but I recognize the utility and simplicity of a wheelgun too.

How would you all change your answers if I incl requirments of enough power to take a treed lion or black bear? Power, carriability?

Thanks all for the insight. Very interesting.

Gdv

If you include those power requirements, you'd be damned hard pressed to beat the 10mm Auto, esp. if you want carriability (concealed) as well.

I have a Glock 20 and a Glock 29. I carry the 29 daily. My WIFE wants the 20 on her side of the bed.

Any reliable handgun of sufficient power for the job that you can hit with. Who cares what I, or someone else use, just choose a reliable handgun of sufficient power that you�re willing to learn.

Ok, with the new criteria, I'd just switch you from the S&W Model 10 to the S&W Model 29 in .44 Magnum. I'd then have you keep it loaded with .44 Special JHP when in your home, and up you to Magnums when in the field. All of the rest of my recommendations remain the same.

1) 4" s&w k frame 38 or 357 mag with fixed sights

2) a full or mid size glock 9 mm or 40 cal

3) would be a second gun of the above described pistols

Whatever you get practice, practice, practice. If you can attend any type of tactical handgun training do so, it's worth the time and money. When things get bad remember, front sight.

goodnews



With a moniker like yours, you obviously do not work for the IRS.

If you're going to make a handgun fill dual roles, be careful of adapting a non-tactical weapon to self-defense. There might be an exception to this rule, but I would suggest your owning two weapons if you were to sense inadequacies with your self-defense weapon. A charging wild animal that wants to eat me or one of my kids would scare the hell out of me. A human being possessive of reason and deliberation who is armed with a weapon who wants to kill me or a family member would scare me infinitely more than any of Mother Nature's beasts.

BTW, I have adapted a 1911A1 to trail use for black bear and lion. But even were I to buy a Redhawk .44 Mag, I would still use my 1911A1 for self-defense before I would ever consider a .44 mag. But that's just me, others may prefer a different arrangement.


Merry Christmas,

Mando

I think you will get about as many choices thrown up as there are people that respond.
My view is that regardless of what platform you choose, you darn sure better get proficient with it. The absolut best gun is useless if you don't know the manual of arms, and have not practiced.
That having been said, I go with a Colt's Combat Commander and Trijicon night sights.

just buy a glock 20 in 10mm and put the TLR-2 flashlight/laser on the front of it for home use and be done with it.

+1

I like the S&W 625 45 ACP because there is no safety to fumble with and you can't drop or lose the clip. Six rounds of 45 don't stop the fight, you got real problems.
Then I would try to find a nice short barreled 12 gauge pump shotgun. I like the Ithaca LAPD model with slug sights and 18" barrel, for some reason it appeals to me?

I guess if you want to shoot lions and bears the Model 29 is as good as it gets. I have a 4" 629 that I handload to 1000 fps with a 252 gr Keith style hard cast bullet. This will penetrate to the vitals and that is the bottom line! Sometimes the light fast bullets won't. (Ask the dead FBI agents.)

Keep in mind that anybody who tries to get in your home uninvited is either high on drugs or crazy or both. You need to do unto others before they do unto you.

It is easier to load a big gun down a little bit than to load a small gun hot enough to equal the power of the big gun. JMHO

Try to rent one before you buy it. Some gun shops will let you do this. A gun you can't control will not be much good to you.

whelennut

Me too. I've had one for many years now. It's a classic riot gun if there ever was one. I believe the 37 is a John Browning design, too.

Yep, I just looked it up. It is, indeed, a John Browning design. Here is a discussion of its advantages, especially for left handers.

Well guys, this is superb. This may sound strange to some of you but I've always been very conflicted about the concept of defensive, lethal force on my part.

But,..the world has changed, even in a small Midwestern town. There's a Benelli M1 tactical UTB now, so I'm far from unarmed but this thread was motivated in part because I've a hankering (this is how some of us talk in Iowa) for a handgun again and I want to be uncharacteristically practical for a change.

I'm enjoying this immensely!

Gdv

Mando, I only communicate with the IRS one time a year and it's not a Christmas Card; let's just call it a mandatory love letter.

Gdv

George,
I have three handguns that fit the defense description. One is a 360PD 357. It is too light for use with 357's but the lightness and portability is what drew me to it and makes it unique enough to keep, though with 38 +P rounds chambered. I also have a Glock 20 10mm. That would be a great sidearm any place black bear and cougar were a concern. I've owned that gun about as long as any I now have. Last is my Kimber Stainless Classic 1911. I believe you would enjoy a 1911. They are classics in every sense of the word. Mine can also be set up with a 460 Rowland barrel that gives it 41 mag performance. A bit redundant with the 10mm, but so it goes.

Whatever you end up with I would make sure it was equiped with night sights. After the sun goes down is when the goblins come out and that is obviously when a defensive weapon will be most likely needed.

Lasers, like the CTC grips, are very nice and I have a set on the 360PD and the 1911. In a real life confrontation, I doubt the laser would get much use by me, as it certainly telegraphs your position. That said, there is nothing that makes for more effective dry fire practice than a set of CTC grips. I "play" with one of mine most every night and my ability to point and "shoot" has increased significantly. They enable eye hand coordination like nothing else, other than hundreds of thousands of rounds of practive and neither my budget or my time will permit that.

Best wishes with your choice. And know they are much like Lays Potato chips as one is just not enough!

Actually, my answer wouldn't change much at all.

I'd go with a good solid revolver in 357 Mag. Probably a S&W 686.

You can use full tilt 357 loads at home if you like, or go with 38 Special +P loads.

As for treed lions and bears, the shot will be measured in feet, so any good 357 softpoint load is gonna topple them.

Then you can practice relatively cheaply with cast lead bullets in the 38.

ColdBore;

Excellent suggestion. Add the Ruger GP100 to the 686, and you've got a pair of fantastic .357s to consider.

90% of handgun gack is like so much we do with rifles, in the end women and children slay deer, elk, and other game every year with 243's, while real men require 338WM's. I have been just as guilty of this as the next guy I am just now becoming a latter day convert to the KISS principle. Most all of us would be served just fine in 99.9999% of all situations by a quality wheel gun in 357 (38 sp). I would run it to a good wheelgun gunsmith and have it tuned and smoothed but there it is something that will work today and tomorrow. See if you can find a used Pre Lock 19 or 66, I prefer the old ones with the firing pin fixed to the hammer but that is just me, make sure the timeing is OK on the gun by slowly hand cocking it and draging your thumb on the cylinder, if it jumps into lock when you remove your thumb or you have to rotate it by your thumb to get it locked don't buy it. Laser grips you can add later but are your choice, they work for me, give your position away, maybe but I am just not a "tactical" kind of guy and but ignorant me, if your life is in danger or your familys life is in danger and your finger is engaging the trigger then so what if your home invader sees you, and then maybe the laser and its tell tale red dot would prevent you or your wife to having to even shoot (a VERY good thing in my opinion)...I have tried/owned many double/single autos SIGS, S&W's, a Taurus, a Ruger even a Keltec, all gone! The trigger pull change was an invitation to miss and was hard for me to master, if a tough DA first shot your wife might even put one thru the roof!! The 38/357 would cover all your needs and if properly tuned with a light reliable double action this is a fantastic one gun does (most) all device. "Smith and Wesson the original Point and Click interface"

goodnews:

You're getting spread way too thin, here. You've gone from tactical/home defense to tactical/home defense/predator control - all in one handgun.

I gather you aren't going to be point man on a SWAT team in your near future, so tactical ought to take a back seat in your thinking, IMHO. Home defense doesn't mean carrying concealed, either.

Home defense means you can use a full-size roscoe. A K/L/N-frame S&W, or a full-size 1911/Sig/Glock will handily kill any burglar that tries entering your house.*

For shooting critters, buy a second handgun for the purpose. You can never have too many, anyway.

(* Disclosure: I haven't killed a burglar myself, so I can't speak from personal experience.)

- Tom

I actually DO use ONE handgun for all of the above purposes. S&W Moutian gun, 44 magnum.

I carry it concealed, shoot pests, leave it on my nightstand and otherwise make it w one size fits me gun.

The only thing it WON'T do is go jogging.

Need a model 642 for that.

BMT

BMT;

I can use one, for all three. Glock 29.

"Need" or "have"?

Actually, a Mountain Gun in .44 magnum would be an excellent choice for goodnews, wouldn't it?

It'll smoke burglars and shoot black bears out of trees, too.

But having thought it over a bit more on the drive home, there's another approach to this whole home defense thing besides the "one ideal handgun for my self defense needs".

Instead of the one (possibly quite expensive) handgun, a man could purchase instead six or eight good, second-hand S&Ws at gun shows and keep one of them in every room of the house.

Think about it: when you're in the kitchen, a rat Model 10 on top of the fridge is worth a hell of a lot more than a new Sig on the nightstand way back in the bedroom.

- Tom

No, I'm not spreading too thin here; it's called compromising .

Well, we're all doing that with every choice we make, but ... you were asking for recommendations and you've heard some from me.

Just about everything that's been suggested here would be a good choice for home defense. Some of them will take care of large quadrupeds, too.

Good luck and let us know what you pick.

- Tom

Goodnews,

Buy two, one for trail use and one for self-defense, make them business expenses, deduct them from your reportable income tax, and tell the IRS you're learning to forgive it. Not that's a compromise!!! Wouldn't life suck w/o a sense of humor???

Seriously though, I would try to buy two handguns and learn to shoo them both. I have hunted the American west for nigh on four decades, and I have never had to defend myself from a wild critter. However, there were many times when I found myself extremely comfortable because I have been able to legally carry a handgun in this God forsaken state since the early 80's.

I have carried at least two 4" barreled revolvers, and they are extremely difficult to conceal. A 5" barreled 1911A1 is much easier to conceal. And I'd much rather carry a spare mag than a speed loader.

A .44 Magnum will take a long time to become proficient, and you'll have to shoot frequently to retain proficiency. Moreover, for self-defense, I'd use .44 Specials because they recoil less and I am assuming the muzzle flash, not good when you're trying to keep your eye on a bad guy who wants to kill you, will be greatly reduced. Remember that a .45 ACP would be much better in a fight for your life than a .44 Special.

If you have time and initiative to become proficient, I'd suggest your buying a 4" .44 Mag for trail use and the best quality 1911A1 you can afford for self-defense. I'd skimp on a trail gun long before I'd even think about skimping on a self-defense weapon. But then again, I live a stone's throw from LA County, home of God knows how many disgusting 'bangers. BTW, I'd rather face a charging bear with a 1911A1 than a 'banger with a .44 Mag, mostly because 'bangers rarely travel alone. One good guy vs one bad guy are not very good odds for the good guy. One good guy vs more than one bad guy will result in terrible odds for the good guy.


Merry Christmas,

Mando

tjm10025,

"Instead of the one (possibly quite expensive) handgun, a man could purchase instead six or eight good, second-hand S&Ws at gun shows and keep one of them in every room of the house. "

This might not be good advice because no matter what room a burglar might be in, he'll have access to one of your weapons.

I have never, ever had more than a single weapon loaded in any home in which I live/lived at any one time.

I'd much rather have one excellent-quality handgun and a good dog than a gun in every room, but that's just me. Others will certainly opine differently.



Merry Christmas,

Mando

"Tactical"? "Schmactical"! Wyatt Earp didn't need Tactical.

Except, maybe, for the Buntline Special ... which he probably used mostly for layin' that long-barrel across drunkin' cowboys foreheads who weren't worth shootin' anyway.

Just get a new Ruger Vaquero in .45 Long Colt, they're very empowering.

P_Weed,

Would you feel comfortable confronting 'bangers who are armed with tactical weapons while you're armed with a Vaquero? Do you think if Wyatt Earp had access to a 1911A1, he would have used a single action revolver? When was the last time you saw a cop armed with even a double action revolver let alone a single action?

P_Weed, we're in the the 21st century. A Vaquero in a gunfight will almost assuredly be in the hands of the second place finisher.



Merry Christmas,

Mando

Better yet....get a Ruger Bisley Blackhawk convertible in 45LC/45ACP!!!

A possibility:
https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbt...lat/Number/1873861/page/1/gonew/1#UNREAD

Anybody,

What is the state of quality of the Taurus handguns?

I've owned a few over the years. The early years were a little rough around the edges with regards to the semi-autos but in years of recent they have really upped the anty. You aren't going to get a SIG quality gun for a Taurus price, but neither are you going to afford fine wine on a beer budget. Yet, I've found the recent models to get good reviews and the ones I've owned and others I've shot at the range functioned and performed GREAT.

I have a 44 Spec. wheel gun made by Taurus that happens to be one of the BEST shooting hand irons I own. But there again it's a wheel gun and most folks are more into semi-autos nowadays...

I had a Raging Bull in 454 Casull that was a great shooter with a great trigger. The cylinder was not bored correctly and my reloads would not fit in all the chambers. They would fit in other RB's so I sent it back to Taurus and they said nothing was wrong. I sold it to a guy who was afraid of reloading.

One thing I'd like to add, I know you didn't ask but I felt like I needed to say that a high velocity/energy single projectile weapon can make home defense a rather "be totally aware" of where you shoot item. 9mm, 40 S&W, 357 Mags, etc. will all penetrate fully a normal home wall and will strike, "with lethal force and authority" objects on the other side. Now to some, they feel this is all to great of a compliment to such a gun used for home protection. I.E. "Billy Bob Bad Boy can't hide behind the door and be safe", BUT..... That is until the "Object" on said other side of the wall is a loved one. I used to shoot a good bit with a SWAT team from across the state line over in Alabama. Those guys felt the BEST in home self-defense weapon was a short barreled 20 or 12 gauge shotgun loaded with a magnum charged load of #2 to #4 shot. The "racking" of pump shotgun is a very feared sound and generally will send an intruder scrambling towards the door. But if not, let's remember that unless you are Hugh Hefner and own a Beverly Hills Mansion that most distances that you would confront an in home attacker/intruder are 30' or less (mostly less). A single blast of (let's say) #4 copper plated turkey loads from a 12 gauge is going to be a very "life altering" event for the thug on the receiving end. YES, it may not kill them but odds are it'll certainly take the fight out of them. If for some strange chance the intruder continues to pursue, well, I seriously think that 4 more rounds like the 1st one should certainly give way to a call being placed to the county morgue for a pickup. Now, what happens to those stray pellets that hit walls and such. They may very well penetrate completely through a sheet rock wall, but they will not carry sufficient energy or penetration characteristics to mortal wound an innocent bystander. I have a wife and 2 kids in my home. I opted for a short barreled 12 gauge with 3" magnum turkey loads with a turkey choke screwed in the end. My pattern at 20' is about the size of a cantaloupe at max. I sincerely think that will do the job and I have the reassurance that I'm not endangering my (might be) sleeping family members who might be in a room off to the side or behind a wall behind a thug.

Sorry if that is WAY off subject, but I thought it might help someone who might read it looking for answers...

So in closing, what's UTB is what (IMO) should be used...

Mostly good - but, judging from what I've read, warranty service hasn't been as great as some other brands (S&W, Ruger, RIA). The two Taurus revolvers I have had (still have one) were/are very good guns.

Dawn2Dusk,

I'm grinning here. My kids tell me I'm always makng up my own acronymns and no one knows what the heck I'm talking about.

UTB = "under the bed"

Frankly, all, I know what the best tactical def weapons-for me-is and I've got it "UTB" in that 18 1/2" barreled benelli loaded with 2s. Partly, a large part probably, this was motivated by wanting a handgun again, and as I've had the larger bores before and enjoyed shooting them I'm leaning toward a Ti wheelgun in 44 mag. but Sean had me seriously considering a Glock in 10mm.

Previously, my last, I had a Ruger Redhawk with a 5 1/2" barrel and shot 320-gr hardcasts in it at 1100 fps and most factory stuff was comparatively mild, so I know what a 44 mag is about and the Specials are just great for plinking around, all handloading aside. Being older and generally weight conscious about everything, the 44 Tis are attracting me and since Taurus has one at roughly have the price of the S&W version, I raised the question.

Gdv

I think you've got your bases covered!
Last weekend in Murderapolis a 7 man SWAT team came into the wrong house based on bad info from an informant.
The homeowner had a shotgun and fired, hitting one officer in the vest and breaking some ribs. (I heard this from a co-worker )No clue about what size shot he used.
According to a gangbanger at work, the one thing they fear most is a shotgun!
Pick up a copy of No Second Place Winner by Bill Jordan. It is good reading.
whelennut

Hello -A) I would find a range that rents handguns near you and try out as many as possible to find out what you like at fits.

B) If you can, take a tactical training class from someone in your area (there are many local outfits that emulate Gunsite etc.)

C) Practice diligently with 50-100 rounds per month, envisioning different tactical scenarios as you do. Clean and lube gun after each session (especially if you pick an autoloader)

D) If a local gun club sponsors any of the different combat pistol format matches, use these to sharpen your skills and have fun.

E) I would not rely on a laser site. Murphy's Law dictates that when a bad guy breaks in, you will have forgotten to turn the battery off following your last training session!

Have fun!

Dawn2Dusk,

A shotgun is an excellent weapon if you were to be able to remain behind cover in a room. However, if you have to check on kids, etc, a good handgun is invaluable.

I like the .44 Special in a revolver. It has enough authority to terminate hostilities yet it's manageable along with minimal muzzle flash. If I were to use a .44 Mag revolver for self-defense, it would be with .44 Special rounds or reduced velocity .44 mag rounds.

Self-defense is a personal proposition. One must select a weapon with which one is most comfortable. With that established, an excellent-quality semiauto, preferably in .40 caliber or larger, brings added comfort should one anticipate more than one adversary.

Regardless of weapon, make no assumptions in a gunfight; shoot until your adversaries are no longer a threat, and practice, practice, practice. Remember that if you die you lose. And if you die you will be unable to help your family members.

BTW, if I were to use a shotgun for self-defense, it would be loaded with 00 or 000 buckshot.


Merry Christmas,

Mando

I have a home defender by winchester and I'd pick that over any handgun.
If I was a criminal breaking into homes and rushing the master bedroom before they could react that is what I would use.
This is the technique used by more savy criminals.
Home invasions are usually done with more than one, so do be prepared for multiple targets.

gn -

I keep an FN57 5.7X28 with 30 round magazine on tap for home defense. This is backup to my 642 with CTC LG405 Laser Sight. The 642 is loaded with Cor-Bon DPX 110 Copper HP loads.

I have had a 4" Ruger Security Six .357 at my fingertips for 26 years now. That is its job. I don't carry it. It doesn't go in the truck with me. I had an action job done it, the trigger rounded, and a set of custom grips made. I have replaced the spring once. It makes at least one of my weekly range trips each month and shoots like a banshee.

Based on your post, I agree with the 4" .357 bunch. I also agree with the practice, practice, practice suggestion.

By the way, did I say practice, practice, practice.

Bob

With your opening question mentioning tactical and self defense I probably would have hesitated to mention it, but since it has been mentioned and you have experience with it... my absolute favorite handgun to shoot for fun is my 4" S&W 629. Partially because I practice more with it, and partially because a few thousand rounds of both live and dry fire have slicked up the trigger, it is the handgun I shoot the best with. I generally use 7.5 grains of Unique under a 240 grain LSWC for 860 fps with virtually no recoil. Mysteriously, of half a dozen handguns I've got, everyone who has tried them shoots my .44 the best too. And with a warmer load, it would be my first choice as a bear gun too. But if I didn't already own my 629, I'd seriously consider the Taurus Ultralite or the scandium S&W 329 instead, since I shoot about 98% .44 special equivalent loads, not magnums, and it would be much easier to pack.

For my ideal home defense & concealed carry gun, I like my Kahr P9. To me it seems to have the ideal balance of power/ recoil/ muzzle blast and fits my hand nearly perfectly. As a semiauto, a reload is available easily in a spare magazine, and as a 9mm, factory practice ammo is cheaper than I can reload it for.

While I've never owned one, I think VAnimrod's 10mm Glock idea sounds really intruiging, but something along the lines of a 3 or 4" barrel .357 revolver would be pretty nice too. All that being said, I think you really ought to have at least two handguns if it will play a role in personal carry and still be potent enough for dispatching a bear.

Also, I gotta agree about the shotgun being far from the ideal choice to investigate bumps in the night, but it would be ideal if you've already confirmed a "Goblin" and already gotten the family safely behind cover in your room- preferably as far as possible from the doorway while waiting on the cops to get there.

And one more thing, before I got my stepson (and all his little friends coming over too), I subscribed to the keep loaded guns stashed throughout the house idea too. I figure if someone breaks into my house, I assume he's already armed, it makes no difference to me whether he's carrying my gun or his own, he'll be treated the same way.

I have a SIG Sauer P220 in 45 auto and a Ruger P89DC in 9mm with Tritium night sights so those get the nod. For home defense purposes though I'd love a 4" S&W M10 or the stainless equivalent in 38spl. `For some reason a 3" Colt Detective's Special sounds good to me as well.

If your dead set on a handgun, I'd say go to the rental range and try out a bunch of full sized guns. Whichever you shoot the best is the winner. Also there is a place in Texas that sells 1911's that are "dual" chambered for .45 ACP and .45 Super.

As far as auto reliability is concerned I have owned 4 auto's and 1 revolver. The revolver is the only one that ever had a real malfunction. Reliability is actually one of the reasons the military switched to auto's. Dirt and sand can get into the teeth on the cylinder on revolvers and can chew them up. Of course thats more operator error as anything else, but Joe can break anything. I've got .45 mags that have been loaded for 6 years straight that still function perfect, but I only use Wilson mags.

Colt (or top quality clone) 1911A1 in .45 acp.
Ruger, Colt, or S&W medium frame 4" double action revolver in .357 mag.

Leave the .41 Mag's & .44 Mag's, Single Action revolvers, and snubby J frames until you build confidence in one of the two types listed above - you will be well served with either one.

Go with what ever is comfortable. If you have the scattergun and you like it stick with it. Yes it is not as maneuverable as a pistol but with proper training turning corners and opening doors is a piece of cake. I opened doors with a 30pound key for several years and a 14" Benelli with #4buck was my favorite entry weapon, not as sexy as an MP-5 but I was never worried about it.

Second thing to consider is a semiauto that will take a white light mount. I would much rather have a white light than a laser aiming device. At close ranges a light such as the surefire x200 or the streamlight will offer enough precision to act as a crude aiming device if desired while making absolute confirmation of the target and the threat they present.

My current choice for bedroom duty is a Ruger PC4 carbine. It has a streamlight mounted and two extra magazines in a pouch on the buttstock. I load it with 165 Golddots that exit at about 1350 from the 16" barrel and dont worry about anything that goes bump in the night. The recoil and muzzle flash are easy to handle and most importantly my wife is very comfortable with it. If I need to use it with one hand it handles like a 10-22 and its solid enough I would have no qualms about using it as an impact weapon to create distance.

For a dual purpose trail gun I would second the .44mag mountain gun, hardcast LBT solids in the field and a midrange load for two legged defense. Another option would be the SW 625 in .45acp. The moon clips make it super slick and it will take any .45 super load you care to stuff into it.

glock 23 with night sights, a hi-cap mag and one extra and a light on the rail.

gives me enough ammo and time to get to my real house gun, and AR15.

they get to choose the size of the boarding party, I get to decide how many "friends" get to assist in repelling their attack.

I'm not an advocate of a 44 magnum in a dark, enclosed area for self defense. If its all you have, fine. But, a big bore revolver is loud in a confined area, and you need your hearing to find the other guys.

Also, muzzle flash is nothing but bad in a self defense night time scenario. It's either telling them where you are, or blinding you to there they are. all that is bad.

a 45 ACP revolver - Maybe. A 44 magnum? not for me...at least not at night in the house.

David,
Have you ever shot a .223 in close quarters or even in an open roofed shoot house? Its hideous and one reason I chose a .40 carbine over my AR's that are in the safe. Whenever I made an entry with an AR I was wearing the electronic earmuffs. An AR is an excellent weapon but the noise is enough to create huge problems if communication is necessary.

varmintsinc,




I can understand why some would want a long gun for self-defense in one's home. But there are a few extremely serious negatives associated with using a long gun. First, if you have to leave your room to check on other family members, it will become unwieldy. Second, one becomes extremely vulnerable to having a long gun taken away by even a not too well trained bad guy. Also, when chambered for most pistol cartridges, ballistic performance is only marginally improved. Finally, if you are armed with a long gun but decide a handgun is tactically more advantageous, you gotta render your long gun inoperable before leaving it behind lest it be use on you!

I have made many dynamic entries with a shotgun, but it was to protect the guys holding handguns. When I had to enter potentially hazardous areas alone, I always did so with just a handgun. Also, if you have to confront a bad guy while you're holding a drawn weapon, keep it as closed to your body as possible, tucked at your side is safe. God, do I know of too many stories where bad guys have reached out and taken guns pointed at them.

However, if I knew I could stay in my room until the good guys arrive, I would hide behind my bed with an 870 with 000 buck pointed at my bedroom door!



Happy New Year,


Mando

Rather than keep guns stashed all over my house, I just don't take it out of my holster till I hit the sack. Then it sits on my night table till I put my pants on in the morning, when it goes back into the holster.

I'm with you.

Mando,
With proper training negotiating corners, manuevering and weapon retention are not issues when deploying a long gun. I have no plans of cuffing or restraining and cannot fathom why someone would possibly put it down once you knew someone was actually in your house.

You illustration and explanations of tactics are sounding more and more like something read rather than something done hundreds of times.

I will never forget somone telling me many years ago. I don't want to see you pull that 45 until you are out of shotgun shells. He was carrying a carbine and I had a pump shotgun.

What's a disconnecter and why is it undesireable in a tactical shotgun? Just curious.

Paul

varmintsinc,




Varmintsinc,


I have read it, been lectured about it, and have practiced it. Let there be no doubt, taking a weapon away from an aggressor is not that difficult albeit not a desirable endeavor. And negotiating the interior of a home alone while armed with a shoulder weapon is asking for trouble. I know of no law enforcement training that instructs such a "tactic."

I am curious. Why do you doubt my education and experience? It seems as though you're intimating I am a liar. If you believe this is the case, come right out and write it. I have always been wary of back door types.

Next time you get to the Disneyland area, let me know. I'll be more than happy to buy you a cup of coffee. The invite is in your lap. I can fully understand your refusal to meet me, though. Also, I can bring a hard copy of CA POST courses I have completed.

For your further edification you can see if Calibre Press will sell training videos to those not in law enforcement. They do put together quality stuff, but I like the training stuff from LAPD Training and LA Sheriff Training much better. Rich Wemmer is an authentic officer survival expert. I have learned quality tactics from his most excellent training videos.

BTW, what do you think is the percentage of cops murdered with their own weapons???


Happy New Year,

Mando

A disconnecter on a pump requires you to release the trigger between shots, preventing you from holding the trigger back and pumping away. IIRC the older Ithaca 37 did not have one I dont recall any current manufactures being made without them.

No idea why it would matter either way. If you can pump a gun fast enough for it matter you will be fast enough to pull and release the trigger between shots.

varmintsinc,

I forgot to post this link for you.



Happy New Year,

Mando

Mando, here's something I'm curious about. In the "convince me" thread I asked you to help me locate the article you repeatedly cited as the only legitimate reference while ridiculing everyone else's references. I provided a link to the FBI LE Bulletins for a ten year period including when you suggested you had read the article. You had made about 29 of the first one hundred posts in that thread until I called you on your reference, then you skedaddled. I can't find that reference where you said it would be. If you can't find it for me I'm going to assume it doesn't exist. If that reference doesn't exist, you may or may not be a liar, but it would certainly appear you are a BSer. Happy New Year.

varmintsinc,

Oops, almost forgot: one of the best training films I have ever viewed was a surveillance tape of inmates at San Quentin practicing gun take aways from cops in the prison yard. Believe me, bad guys do train and they are probably better trained than you can ever imagine. Also, many of the black LA area street gangs train as well. Very scary stuff indeed!!!

Here's potentially lifesaving advice for you. You can discount it if you so desire. The only proven way to survive a gunfight is to not get in one!


Happy New Year,

Mando

RufusG,

I am not going to research if for you. You can believe whatever the hell floats your boat! And if you read my last post in that thread you would know that I politely bowed out of it.

Rufus, before you attempt to impugn my character, you ought to go to your local library and research it. I read the article in a So Cal university library around 2000. It was in cataloged issue. So if I was able to find it, I am sure it'll be no trouble for a sharp dude like you!!!


Happy New Year to you, Rufus,

Mando

I believe that your reference does not exist. Since I handed you the ten year index and you chose not to point out the article which was the lynchpin of your argument, I'll assume you KNOW it doesn't exist. Why should I go to the library? I gave you the link to ten years of the LEB, including year 2000, of pdfs of the journal you claimed contained the article. I'm not attempting to impugn your character, I just want to read the article and decide if I think it says what you claimed it does. And I may not be as sharp as you suggest, but I am sharp enough to spot a BSer when I smell one. I'd be more than happy for you to prove me wrong.

Edited to add Happy New Year!

Mando,
What have I said that makes you so concerned about my well being? A link to Caliber Press Street survival?? Been there a couple times starting in the early 1990s and find it to be a nice refresher.

I seen plenty of training tapes and did an intership at Corcoran SP and have seen the gangs training first hand. I guess the next time I submit an article for the NTOA I should have you go over it first to check it for scientific errors.

I glad you have plenty of POST certificates from course you have attended. I have a big pile as well, also a bunch of certificates on course Im qualified to teach on, one of which is urban carbine deployment. You act as if going into a house with a long gun is foolish and I disagree completely.

Sorry if I come off as brash, sometimes it hard in a typed message to convey intent of subtle tone. If I wanted to call you a liar I would. I dont think thats appropriate or warranted. From my perspective you seem as if you have the answers to everything and anyone who disagrees is wrong. I feel the world of tactics is a giant toolbox. Get as many tools as possible from as many sources as possible and find what works the best for you. If your not comfortable with a carbine at CQB distances than dont use it, take your pistol or whatever you need to provide you with the best defensive or offensive capabilities. Im not here to argue with anyone, I offer my post based on my experience that is shaped my what I have been taught as well as how it worked in the field for me and those I have worked with.

Goodnews: Sorry for the Hijack, good luck finding what makes you comfortable, confidence is more important than anything you can buy.

RufusG,





So you ARE calling me a liar. And what omniscience plagues you to assume you can spot a BS'er? Well, that is not the first error you have made here. And you're making another another obvious one by assuming the "FBI LE Bulletin" as been around for merely ten years.

So, sharp dude, how will you make in worth my while for finding it for you? Any decent private researcher in So Cal is going to charge about a hundred bucks an hour. I should have if for you in about two hours of my time, three tops. So sharpo, put your money where your too often flapping mouth is. You give me two hundred bucks, possibly three hundred and I'll produce the volume and page number where you can find the article about which you're confident I am lying. And if I can't, I'll compensate you for wasting your valuable time. Tell me what it is worth to you! But it won't matter because I am a hundred percent confident you'll be compensating me for educating you!!! And let's put a time frame on this of no later than Jan 11, 2008. That will give me time to make the drive to find it. If I can't produce it by then, I'll compensate you. Are you gentleman enough to agree to this???

Put up or shut up!

BTW, I have been commended in open court more than once, by defense attorneys no less, for veracity. Too bad they didn't have your intelligence to pick me off as a BS'er!


Happy New Year,

Mando

varmintsinc,

You do come off as caustic and omniscient, pedantic even.

So why don't you cite reference of any legitimate tactical training institute that advocates searching the interior of a home armed with only a long gun?

And I take it you do not want to have coffee with me. Well, at least I tried. BTW, we can use the money I am going to earn from Rufus to enjoy Disneyland after morning coffee.

As we all know, people often portray themselves as firearms/tactical experts on forums such as "24 Hour Campfire." While I will admit right up front that I am no expert, I know how I was professionally trained. With that, I am able to recognize that you might not be what you want others to accept.

Oh well, no hard feelings.



Happy New Year,

Mando

varmintsinc,

BTW, please tell me where I can read your published work. And law enforcement interns are never privy to confidential law enforcement information. Are you really telling me that CDC officials breached this cardinal rule of law enforcement and possibly risked termination/prosecution for your sake? Interesting!

So, what kind of work do you do that provides your basis of tactical firearms knowledge? You have be curious yellow!



Happy New Year,

Mando

PM sent in a minute, enough of a hijack.

Yes, now I am. Obviously, since I gave you a link to the specific year of the LEB you referenced, and several on either end, and you are blowing smoke about wanting money to prove your imaginary reference exists, you are a liar. If you are going to argue condescendingly, as you do, you need to be able to back it up. You derided every reference of every other poster, it's your responsibility to prove your reference exists, not mine.

I apologize for the hijack but an arrogant condescending BSer should not be left off the hook.

Just do what Mando does and make one up. You don't actually have to produce it.

RufusG,

Gosh, I'd thought you'd turn your tail and skedaddle on me. So, you're calling me a liar but are not willing to put your money where your flap trap is??? Ummm. Lemme see. You're quick to call me a liar but scared to back it up. Seems like you're scared of having to pay up. Hey, what's a synonym of scared. Starts with "c" and has six letters. Do you wanna buy a vowel?

You, Rufus are the consummate Internet troll. You lurk, post nothing of intellectual value, resort to cheap name calling, and refuse to back up your bullying tactics. So, troll, put up or shut up. You know what the offer is. Pay me for my time and I'll produce it. If I can't, I'll pay you for yours. But you're too yeller to take this legitimate offer and are weaselin' yer way out of it. Yer skedaddlin' on greased skids to the cover of yer mamma's skirt prayin' she'll bake li'l Trollie more cookies and tuck yer yeller tail safe in yer li'l troll bed!!!

Y'know, you ought to change your moniker to "The Skedaddlin' Troll!"


Adios Trollster,


Mando

Why don't you take your pissing contest private???

+1

Bobcat,

You're right, except for the fact that The Skedaddlin' Troll wrote that I am a liar on a public forum. Surely you recognize that I am therefore obligated to defend my character appropriately from his cowardly accusation.


Happy New Year to you, Bobcat,

Mando

Gents, my sincere apology to you for this blatant thread hi-jack.
Mando, previous posters attempts at reasoning with you appear to be akin to negotiating with a terrorist, so let's try this instead:

TrophyHunter,

Can you give me a specific example where my reasoning skills were remiss, or are you merely a lemming variety troll willing to leap from the precipice of knowledge to depths of Trollville where trollisms trump knowledge?

Go ahead, take yer time big fella, and show me precisely where my reasoning skill were remiss.


Happy New Year,

Mando

Mando, your reasoning skills were not remiss, you simply don't have any. The members of this board that posed legitimate questions to you have recieved nothing but garbage out of you in response. Further discussion with you by me or anyone else intending to have a meaningfull outcome is pointless at best where you are concerned. I place high value on the real experience that members of this board so graciously afford those looking for help, you do nothing to contribute to it. So flame away pal, it isnt hard to spot a poser in the ranks.

I bet the gold coins are gonna start flyin' soon.....

One could only hope......

Mr. Mando �

Here�s the way it works. You threw around information that you claim is from a source other than you, and you were called on it. It�s incumbent upon YOU to provide the source or quietly walk away from the discussion. If YOU are the source, then say so and let your statement rest on the merits of the statement. If you cite a source, you have to back it up, that�s proper etiquette.

I like to think that The Campfire is a university of higher knowledge. People who come here are serious about learning and sharing. I like to think that Campfire members hold themselves to a higher standard than just a few guys drinking beer and slinging BS. Not that there�s anything wrong with sharing a cold one and swapping lies, just that this isn�t the proper forum for that.

If you can�t provide your source, then retract the statement, say I can�t provide the source, apologize to anyone who may have been offended and resume your Campfire experience a wiser and much more respected member.

Just my .02

May God Bless you this new year, Kevin.

BMT

KG;

Don't bother, compadre'.

Happy New Year.

VA:

Yeah, I think goodnews has lost interest in this thread, anyway.

- Tom

Thanks, Kevin - you beat me to it...



Almost exactly word for word what I had in mind to post as soon as I logged back on.

Any debater knows that it is impossible to prove a negative. That is why it is incumbent on the one who makes the claim to provide the source. To do as you have done, Mando, potentially sets everyone else up for wasted time. Not a gentlemanly thing to do, especially when you say you know right where to look for the info. I wouldn't expect anyone to take that bait when it should be easy for you to provide the exact document.

Why not make the trip, scan the document, and post it as an attachment? Then you can say "told ya so".