How important are caliber and capacity, really, in a self defense situation?

I read so much about guys who would rather die than carry anything less than a .45. Many folks who carry insist on spare mags on their belt or in their pocket.

I'd go out on a limb here and say that most of us will never have to use our carry piece, thankfully. If we do, in most of the cases, simply the sight of a gun will send the BG's scurrying for cover. Take it to the next step, when someone hears a shot, they get out of town. Nobody asks what caliber it is or how many shots you have left.

It's hard to think of a situation where I'd need more shots than what I carry in my mag. If you're changing mags mid fight, you're in trouble. I don't know that I've ever heard of it happening.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but have you fellas ever heard of a self defense (not law enforcement) situation where a citizen who ran out of bullets got into trouble and wished he had more? Or, how about a situation where a few hits with a smaller caliber didn't do the job, the BG kept coming, and the citizen wished he would have been packing something with more punch?

I'd love to hear examples of either if you have them.

I feel pretty much the same way. I'm a member at a couple other handgun/self defense boards and I'm often amazed at how much fire power some guys carry.

Some guys have a semi auto and two back up revolvers. Other guys carry a single semi auto,but then carry three or four hi-cap magazines.

Is there really a need to carry three handguns or 60 rounds of ammo?

If I live in an area that I need that much firepower to feel safe on the street,I'm finding a different place to live ASAP.

I think most guys go with a " better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" I carry anywhere between 18 and 27 rounds when I carry.

Although, when I would hunt in the deserts south of Phoenix I carried at least 3 pistol mags and 2 spare AR mags at all times.

But to answer your question......caliber or capcity is not as important as carrying to begin with. Next I would take caliber ....then capacity.

When I was a cop, I saw lots of shootings, both by cops and civilians.
They had a tendency to have a few things in common.
Most of them shot their guns dry if they had to fire them. So an extra magazine/ammo would be needed.
To prevail, seldom did those who missed what they shot at did so. Happens but not often. So, whatever you use, the ability to shoot well is, far and away, the most important.
Full size guns usually were more effective than the very small ones. Note I didn't say they had to be a .45 or a .44 Magnum. E

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Lesson: Only the power of lawful force can answer the power of lawless criminal force.

A few years ago, the TV program Turning Point focused on private citizens who had used guns in self-defense. In refreshing contrast to much of the mainstream electronic media, the show for the most part gave a fair and balanced portrayal of ordinary people who had been forced to resort to defensive firearms in extraordinary circumstances. I wrote about it in this space at the time. Among the Turning Point shootings we discussed were the series of armed robberies and attempted murders defeated by Lance Thomas, the owner of a watch shop in Los Angeles.
In 2001, Paladin Press published one of the best "reads" of the year for people who follow the gun culture and understand the principles of self-protection. The author is Paul Kirchner, who has collaborated with Col. Jeff Cooper on previous books, and the title is The Deadliest Men: The World's Deadliest Combatants Through the Ages. It covers figures as disparate as the French swordswoman known as La Maupin, such great American war heroes as Alvin York and Audie Murphy; gunfighters like Wild Bill Hickok and Bat Masterson, and a man named Lance Thomas.

Over a period of less than 3 years, Thomas was involved in four gun battles against a total of 11 known suspects. He shot six of them, killing five. The watch dealer himself was wounded on two of these occasions, taking a total of five rounds. There are many lessons that the rest of us can learn: Lessons of long-term strategy and short-term tactics; of gun selection and ammunition effectiveness; and, above all, of courage under fire in the moment, and of determination over the long haul.

The rest of the article is here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533205/

More of the same article:

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November 27, 1989. This time, it's the kind of professional hit that the NYPD Stakeout Squad warned you about-- a five-man team of thugs who know what they're doing. There's seeded backup, a perpetrator ambling around on the sidewalk outside, pretending to be a passerby. The outrider is in the driver's seat of the getaway car, at once a wheelman and a potential killer who can murderously interdict responding officers, or go inside with heavy weapons to rescue accomplices who are captured inside the premises. The remaining three perpetrators comprise the raid team.

It opens hot, fast and ugly. One of the perpetrators opens up on Lance Thomas without warning, firing a semiautomatic pistol, hitting him four times with eight rounds fired. Three of the .25 ACP bullets bite into Thomas' right shoulder, a fourth into his neck. The watchmaker grabs the nearest revolver, the Ruger .357, missing with the first shot but scoring with the next five.

The gunman falls to the floor and so does the Security-Six: it has clicked empty. Thomas drops it, lunging for the next nearest weapon, the snubnose .38 that had saved him last time.

Now he engages the second suspect, who is shooting at him. Thomas shoots back. That gun, too, runs dry. He hasn't hit his antagonist, but he hasn't been hit either, and the second robber is in no mood to continue the gunfight.

The third inside suspect opens fire at Thomas. Wounded, but furious and still in the fight, the storekeeper grabs his third gun of the shootout, another .357. As Paul Kirchner relates it, he "empties it into" the third gunman. That offender goes down.

Still more

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Inside, only one of the combatants is standing. Bleeding but defiant, the wounded Lance Thomas looks down at the two men he has killed. In the course of the fight, he has fired 19 shots.

More

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Two Year Break

December 4, 1991. It has been more than two years since the last incident. Some others would be complacent by now. Not Lance Thomas, who has learned that vigilance equals survival, and from the beginning has realized he is responsible for the safety of his customers.

On this date a male perpetrator strides in, accompanied by a female accomplice who shows no weapon. The man pulls a loaded Glock pistol. He points the gun at Thomas and orders him to be motionless.

No way. Thomas goes for his gun.

The perpetrator fires first, pumping a 9mm bullet through Thomas' neck, drilling a wound channel that is just a fraction of an inch from being fatal. But now, Thomas has reached his nearest pistol, the little P225, and he is firing back.

The watch shop proprietor has been forced into an awkward hold on the gun, and he can only fire three rounds--all straight into the chest of his opponent-- before his imperfect grasp causes the usually reliable SIG 9mm to jam. Without missing a beat, he drops it and grabs one of its big brothers, which he fires into the opponent five more times until the armed robber falls and stops trying to commit murder.

Frozen in terror, the female accomplice offers no violence. It's over.

Wounded, Lance Thomas will recover. Not so the criminal who shot him, who will die of the eight rounds-- all hits, eight for eight-- that the armed citizen has inflicted with his two SIG-Sauer pistols.


Ever Vigilant

February 20, 1992. It has been just over two and a half months since the last shootout. Lance Thomas has remained vigilant. Now, his wariness pays off.

Two armed perpetrators enter the store. As soon as Thomas sees the automatic pistol in one of their hands, he reflexes to his nearest pistol, one of the P-220s. This perpetrator goes down fast, hit with what author Kirchner describes as most of a "gunload" of .45 ACP ammunition.

Grabbing another P-220, Thomas engages the second armed robbery suspect and shoots him four times. The suspect falls. The danger is over.

Both armed robbers are dead at the shopowner's hands. In four gun battles, Lance Thomas has fired 40-plus shots. He has killed five men, and wounded another. He has defeated a total of 11 perpetrators, either shot down or driven off in abject flight. He has been wounded five times

Simply put from just this one persons experience it appears that it pays to be properly prepared, instead of half azz'ed prepared

His excellent choice in firearms should also be noted

My mantra has always been "Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pizz Poor Performance".

I don't carry three extra mags, but I carry enough to get me back to (hopefully) my vehicle. If I can't get it done off-duty with what I have on me, I need to re-think what I'm doing.

If, God forbid, the situation becomes something that has to be engaged then I have better tools in my vehicle.

George

NK K9, what dept. do you work for in NH?

Barrington. Sandwiched between Dover and Rochester.

George

I think the"get back to my vechicle is flawed theory

If you're already carrying a gun, adding a mag or two is the easy part. I don't see a good reason not to do so.

I've had to pull guns twice.
Both times the presence ended the altercation.
But the racking of a 12 ga pump usually does that.
The young black man sat down on his hands ( as ordered ) after he turned white!

I help the gun on him while dialing the cops and then held him there as they entered the gas station and took control.

The other time my Browning Highpower came out at point blank and it's cold steel on the combatant's neck and he retreated, before I had to fire.

I agree, with those who say. First have a gun and a plan
Practice the plan.
Practice with the gun.

The guy who had all those shoot outs needs to find a different location or line of work.

You shot at a retreating person?

Fair enough, though I disagree. What I carry on me is enough to defend myself and my family in the majority of situations that one might run into.

If I'm going back to my vehicle I have entered a situation where I am, most likely, not in defense mode anymore. Probably poor articulation on my part originally.

George

I was told this once on another forum when I said I carry a pistol and 3 extra mags while out hunting in addition to my bolt gun. Enough to fight my way back to my truck where my AR is, if necessary. This is in the deserts between Tuscon and Phoenix. My answer to that is.....why should I have to give up hunting and 4 wheeling because of the dangers associated with my location. Im not going to give up the things I love doing because bad people break the law in the same area as me.

Nevermind, I misread your post. Although if I got to the point where I felt I needed to press my gun on someones neck I would have fired long before he could retreat. Meaning how much danger did you feel you were in to draw your weapon, press it against someones neck and not fire?

Having a reload regardless of what weapon you carry in my opinion is not a bad idea because personally i just hate the though of a empty pistol in my hand or holster even if i don't need a reload. In this world of gang mentality carrying extra round seem like a good idea.

Dryflyelk there is alot of information on actual shootings. I have read 6% of all self defense shootings require a reload. That does not take into account the shootings were a second gun was pulled and used.

My personal opinion is only hits matter. It does not matter a whole lot what those hits are made with. I will take capacity over caliber. I have talked with alot of people that have been in shootings and everyone has said that the scariest part is when there gun went to slide lock.

Off duty I carry a glock 27, smith 642 and spare mag for the glock. This way I have a gun available to each hand.

Dink

Carry what you are best with and have the most confidence in....

One of the best reasons for carrying an extra mag is not because you'll need additional rounds but because a major cause for weapon malfunctions relates to a bad magazine. Bad springs, bent feed lips etc. are typically what causes a handgun to go down while shooting.

Carrying an extra mag allows for quickly stripping out the bad mag and getting back in the fight without fiddlef#%@ing around. Some departments mandate carrying at least one extra mag, mainly for this reason.

Great info gentlemen.

Dink, I was guessing around 5%, so that's pretty close. I wonder what situations would require that? The perp would have to be hellbent on doing you harm and a gun wouldn't or didn't change his mind. That BG has got to be high or crazy.

I wonder what the percentage is of BG's that keep coming after being hit by a round? Again, that guy has got to be high as a kite to want more medicine.

FOR ME, to carry on a daily basis, I need light and comfortable. Loading down my belt and pants with more mags, lights, or whatever is out of the question. Sure, it's better to have that stuff, but the inconvenience and weight make it prohibitive. I can't imagine rocking a full sized gun like some of you gents, with additional mags, all while trying to conceal it.

Obviously our situations and lives are different, and if you can carry the extra firepower, by all means, go for it. I just can't imagine myself getting into a situation where my Sig P238 didn't solve the problem. If I can't do it with 7 rounds, I need help anyway. Hopefully I never find out.

dryflyelk keep in mind when chit hits the fan you will miss and pull bad shots. Other situations that would require a reload are malfunctions, running out of bullets and hitting the mag release button during the fight.

Remember everytime you walk into a public bathroom all a turd has to do is turn the lights out on you and you will be [bleep]. That reason alone should make you want to carry a flashlight with you. Not to mention being out at night, parking garages and large department stores when the power goes out.

Seven rounds is not very many. I hope you do get it done with seven because if not you will have to beg for your life or your family's life.

Dink

After hitting what I aim at..For me bullet performance is most important.

I do not carry without at least one reload. In higher perceived threat areas I tend to carry left front pocket and strong right side both.Heck I carry a blade I can get to with both hands. Magazines get dropped and malfunction, cylinders open and dump cartridges, folks shoot them dry. folks trap your hands.

My behaviors are based on the information I have gathered more than my opinions. For example;Personally, I feel pretty good with a Bodyguard and one speed strip. Other folks have convinced me I may not be able to deal with some common situations with one.
As a result, I tend to carry two pistols if I have a Bodyguard on me. So far noone has convinced me that ten rounds loaded in weapons won't solve most common situations.


I need to believe it will make it to the vitals. Then the damage to the vitals gets important so I suppose caliber, after that capacity.

In my very limited experience from Viet Nam folks often empty their weapons at any sign of a threat. We were Marines so some of has were able to control our fire a little better. Sometimes.
You carried your weapon and a spare magazine everywhere. Period.

Waving a weapon at someone can be a dangerous waste of time.
Believing it will cause someone to surrender/flee is chancey.

In a purely defensive situation, I don�t think that caliber and capacity are very important. Lance Thomas sounds like a warrior, but he basically is an idiot for allowing himself to remain in a situation where he had to defend watches with multiple firearms, not once, but multiple times.

In an offensive situation, I think that cartridge power is important but capacity is overrated. Suppressive fire isn�t going to work in a crowded mall. Skill with the safety equipment, including the ability to reload the chosen equipment under stress, is important. Intelligence, fighting spirit, and ability to deal with severe stress are important.

I will NEVER "wave" a firearm at anybody, if I pull it it is to fire. Now if they turn tail and run before I can fire it is their lucky day. And I mostly carry two on me, a NY reload if you will.

Would you close your business down or move out of your home if it were attacked, more than once? I would do neither.

I don't carry an extra mag when wearing plain clothes, but I probably should...


Travis

I moved from New Orleans. I was perfectly capable of defending myself. My wife was perfectly capable of defending herself. We knew we could not cover our young child's butt once he was old enough to leave the house on his own.

When I was a kid, my father was a pharmacist with a mom and pop pharmacy. After having guns shoved in his face by hyped up junkies wanting controlled substances, he went to law school and got a safer job. I applaud him for that. He is still around.

So, yeah, I pick my battles. If one is coming, and I feel I've done my part in terms of preventive measures, I'll deal with it.

Fair enough, different views/different mind sets I suppose.

If you're in as many battles as that watch dealer, get out of town. There is no profession (besides military) worth risking your life over, every day, IMO. Four gun battles? Man. Move your business to a new town.

You guys know the stats better than I do, but don't a very high percentage of self defense gun battles happen at very close range? Like 5 yards? A guy comes to take your wallet. You pull a gun. The end. The chances of needing more than a couple of shots are very, very slim. You don't even have to hit the guy I'd imagine.

Like has been mentioned, offensive situations are completely different. All you are trying to do is defend yourself and get to safety, and protect those around you. You don't shoot unless you have to do so.

In war, carry as much as you can. Chances are high you'll need it. Viet Nam is not the same as buying groceries at Walmart.

Allow me to say this:

I've been to two shooting schools, and I showed up at both of them with a $100 Makarov. I got laughed at by several other students with their $1500 45 autos.

By the end of the schools, the laughter had stopped. The instructor at one of them asked the scoffers one question. He said, "If any of you want to have Rocky put two of those tiny bullets through your second shirt button, as you have seen him do on the targets, raise your hand."

Nada.

It is NOT the headstamp on the round, nor the rollmark on the gun that determines the winner of a gunfight. It is the steel in the shooter's mind.

I'm sorry, but the OP sounds like a guy who either doesn't or shouldn't carry a loaded handgun for serious social purposes. Just an observation. However, what RockyRabb wrote is spot-on.

My belief is if I am going to be armed, then I may as well be armed well enough to fight through any situation that arises, not just most of them

YMMV

As RR psote it is the mind set that wins, that I agree with. But I like to take it one step farther and have a 45 with enough ammo that I can see it through

NH K9 you are right on. Your personal carry isn't to fend off WWIII, it is to get you out of a jam. Any halfway decent shooter with the heart is going to either get the job done with first or second shot, or be down.

Next training is going to make you a better shot and weapons handler. What it won't do or tell is if you have it in you under fire in the real deal.

I have seen first hand great shots and great weapons handlers that once thrown into the fire were the last guys I would ever want with me in a firefight. That is something you either have or don't, There is no cultavating it.

This stuff of a bad guy being down in one or two shots is fantasy and will get you killed. A pistol does not kill like a centerfire rifle. Unless one is lucky and hit the brain you will have to wait for the bad guys blood pressure to drop low enough that his body will shut down.

A buddy of mine (road cop, swat officer) shot a guy 5 times through the chest (damn near perfect on all shots) one night that was chraging him with a three foot piece of pipe. He told me that he still had to run backwards and avoid several swings of the pipe before the bad guy hit the ground and left this world. It was later determined that the bad guy was on nothing other than being determined.

Dink

You are spot on DINK, how about the FBI shoot out in Miami in 86 these guys weren't on anything either except adrenaline

a long time ago, in the 70's, i felt perfectly comfortable with a model 19 and a couple of speedloaders. To some extent i still do.
however, I have been down in that area between tucson and phoenix several times in the last month way back in the sticks.
These days i have a high powered scoped rifle in the vehicle with me, and a high capacity pistol with several mags.
Times have changed.

Dink first off where did I say killed?????? No person or animal dies the same. For whatever reasons I have seen animals with perfect shot placement drop dead, run off and die, and no I didn't see this but a friend of mine killed an elk this season with his rifle. After removing the heart they found 4" of an arrow shaft and broadhead dead center of the heart. No new holes and everything around it healed. So you explain that.

I haven't been to any of the fancy shooting schools. Only training I have is USMC. I have been in combat and I have seen what the capablities of different weapons are. I pick the proper weapon for the job. I am not going out to fight a war with a pistol alone. As I am not taking my wife out to dinner with my Rifle slung over my shoulder.

I'm trying to figure out why it should matter to so many people. Sounds like a good forum for 10 round magazine restrictions.

JWP475 I was just talking about that gunfight today. For anyone that does not know special agent dove shot platte(bank robber) through the heart with a 9mm 115 grain silver tip at the onset of the gunfight. Platte went on to kill two agents (one being Dove) and wound five others with a mini 14. His partner in crime Matix was shot at the start of the gunfight also with a 158 grain lead hollow point from a .38 in the nasal cavity and was only able to fire one round from his shotgun. Most experts agree that if Matix would have been in the fight also that all FBI agents would have been killed. Matix did again engage in the fight just as Platte was killed but Matix was then shot a additional four times in the head while still seated in the car. ending the fight.

Dink

Montanacreekhunter didn't you say that any fight would be over in a round or two or the good guy would be down?

It is documented that a person shoots between 8% and 10% of there ability they show on the range. I am not a very good pistol shot to began with and all I have to work with is less than 10% of that when chit hits the fan there is a very good chance I will miss the first two shots.

Everyone is free to defend themselves and there families any way they want. I have spent years studying and talking to people that have been there and done that. I get to teach firearms for my job and it gives me a little insight to what the average person can and can not do. You can take my opinion for what its worth. If anyone wants to defend there families with a Ruger LCP and believe they will survive most incidents I think thats just wishful thinking on there part.

Dink

Actually Agent Doves 9mm bullet didn't reach the heart. The bullet entered the left bicep where it ruptured a maim artery and this was a fatal wound. The bullet then entered the chest cavity in line with the heart but didn't have enough penetration to reach the heart. Pratt continued to press the fight for another 4 1/2 minutes after agent Dove's shot and multiple other hits

I have a complete forensic report on the shooting and have studied it completely

JWP the info I have says the bullet went through the heart but failed to expand. The FBI deemed it bullet failure for the reason the fight went on for 4 1/2 minutes. This why they went to the 10mm that none of them could shoot very well. They wanted the speed the 10mm produced.

I also have a forensic report complete with drawings of where Platt and Matix were shot and angle of bullet travel.

I wonder which one is correct.

Dink

Lack of expansion was not the problem, lack of penetration was. The bullet that hit Matrix under his left eye went through the sinus cavity and stop next to the vertebrae again a lack of penetration in order to totally incapacitate.

I have the forensic report by right here on my desk complete with autopsy pictures as well as statements by the surviving agents

Mine states that the bullet did not expand as it went through the heart. Mine also states that the bullet that hit Matix stopped in the sinus cavity and says nothing about the vertebrae.

Mine also has the autopsy pics but not the statements by the surviving agents. How did you get yours?

Dink

I wonder how far away we are from being told he should have been using big, heavy, wide-meplat, hard-cast bullets?

On page 38 I quote:

The bullet through Platt's right upper arm caused considerable damage. Besides rupturing the brachial blood vessels there must have been significant nerve injury since several of the major nerves of the arm travel with bradhial vessels. However, at least a portion of the median nerve, which controls the muscle used to pul a trigger had to have remained intact since Platt did continue firing his Mini-14. The large ragged exit wound from the arm and the jagged entry wound into the chest suggest a tumbling of the bullet as it entered the chest, passed through the fifth intercoastal space, and stopped in the helium (perhaps damaging either the pulmonary artery or vein or both). A markedly deformed bullet can be seen in the hilar region in the chest X-ray. The right lung was totally collapsed and the right pleural space contained 1,300 ml of blood-a major life-threatening blood loss. Blood exited from the brachial vessels as evidenced by the large quantity of blood that Platt left in his wake and on Grogan/Dove's car."

Any bullet that would have penetrated to and through the heart would have ended the fire fight sooner


Wide meplat hard cast bullets don't give the erratic performance of jacketed

Plenty of danger in the great outdoors from the two legged vermin: Linkie

Article 1

Article 2

Article 3

As one forest official recently warned me, you better be armed if you visit the forest.

MtnHtr

No what I said was that in MOST cases a decent shooter with the heart (meaning the ablity to be a warrior) is going to shoot one maybe two rounds or they will be down. A robbery or what have you is a short and fast transaction. I didn't say good guy or bad guy. To use a LE case isn't a good choice as those are rare and LE type situations. I don't believe the orginal poster was talking from a LE perspective. For the average guy wanting, needed, or believing they need to carry will never see that type of cenerio. Also I never said what pistol would be my choice, I would be and do carry a .45ACP, I think time and time again the 9mm has shown its inferrior. I wasn't taking a side on what to carry. My point was 1) You have three types of carriers. The first is John Rambo that thinks around the next corner he turns is going to be WWIII. The second is the guy that is a average guy that wants to protect himself in the rare case of an ugly situation. The third is LE/MIL that never know what is around the next corner because that is their job/career. This isn't to say you can't have a guy that is a mix of two or all three of these. My second point was that until you are truly in a [bleep] situation you don't know how you will respond or handle it. And no amount of training can determine this. You study these things and so I will assume you know a little about the subject. I don't study it but I have been in a few firefights. In my first my best friend who I thought was the toughest guy I ever met turned out to be a "no show". He qualified expert on the rifle range and pistol range. He loved to shoot whenever he could. He loved to fist fight and was a one hit wonder. I can't tell you how many guys I saw him knockout in our time stationed together. But when the bullets started flying he was useless. Please don't think I am trying to argue with you, I am not. I just know from experiance that until you are tested under actual conditions you truly don't know.

With that said I will say that just because someone is LE/MIL doesn't mean they are weapons experts and tactical experts. Most are not from my experiances and knowing a lot of them. CERT/SWAT/ERT's are a little different story as their training is more intense and aimed at this. But they are the minority in the overall picture of LE.

Hmmmmmmm, you tell this guy to move his business to a new town for protecting pontentially 100's of thousands of dollars of merchandise and possibly his life and you want to pull your gun one someone for taking your wallet?

Guy pulls a gun on me and says give me your wallet.........guy gets my wallet. I go home unharmed, maybe out the less than 20 in cash that I carry, and have to go through the hassles of replacing some credit cards and id's. I also dont have to deal with killing another human being over 8 bucks and get to avoid possible criminal, and guaranteed civil cases.

No, no shots were fired in either case.

Well said Rocky

A tiny pistol one can hit with is Much more effective than a cannon that you might miss with.

My grand mother had a .25 auto she could and did shoot rats with!

At much longer ranges than I ever dreamed possible!

But it was "her " gun and she was effective with it!

Usually it takes someone from AZ or even southern NM/TX to understand the need for such "extras"

"Both armed robbers are dead at the shopowner's hands. In four gun battles, Lance Thomas has fired 40-plus shots. He has killed five men, and wounded another. He has defeated a total of 11 perpetrators, either shot down or driven off in abject flight. He has been wounded five times"

I think , that after the second or third gun battle,
I'd be looking at a different line of work ( or at least a safer location!)

montanacreekhunter I am not trying to argue either just posting what I know/heard about. Gunfights have always interested me and I have got to talk with alot of guys that have survived them in a non-military setting.

You say that the LEO shooting is not a good example of what a civilian will run into. Well the guy my buddy killed had just beat two people to death with a bat.

I have not mentioned caliber because in my findings as long as its 9mm or bigger I don't think it matters much. Being able to shoot your defense handgun is much more importance. People don't die from being shot. They die from having vital organs detstroyed. How they get destroyed is of little concern. One should also know that 80% of the people shot with a handgun live.

I have alos read alot about Lance Thomas. He has a mental game that is above most. That is one guy I would like to have lunch with.

Dink

I just read his story and there is a lot to think about. Drop the gun and grab another. Makes a lot of sense if it could be done.

Jose if you want to read another gunfighter that believed in carrying multiple guns read anything by Jim Cirillo.

Dink

Like I said earlier, I usually carry two. A Smith model 60 I have had since 1965-66 and a Kel-Tec P-32 I have had for ten or so years. I am not paranoid but have made enemies in over 40 years as an active Deputy Sheriff and then continuing association with the Department.

Will I ever need them? Nobody knows but better to have and not need than need and not have. Other than in RSVN I have been in 2 shooting incidents while a Deputy, in one I fired twice and my partner delivered the killing shot. In the second I fired three times, hitting him well but not fataly, and ended up testifying at his subsequent trial.

I DO NOT ever want to have to do it again, but I will if I perceive a deadly threat against myself, family or another.

Agreed on both counts with, perhaps, a difference in opinion on what "enough ammo" means. I figure one extra is enough.




I guess it's just my mindset, but that same .45 with enough ammo doesn't cover "any situation". It damn sure covers most, but not all.

George

For me, it is sometimes a matter of what can I carry comfortably given the day's dress and activity. Sometimes that is a full size semi-auto with 17 rounds, sometimes a J-frame or Kahr PM9. I feel it is most important to have your weapon. I would always like to have more, but sometimes it just can't happen, so in those cases, I am OK with 5-7 rounds. Sometimes I carry a reload, sometimes not.

I have seen some don't like the 9mm (probably .38 Spl by default as well) and only want a .45. But while I have a .45, it only has 8 rounds and is heavier than my polymer 9mm pistols. I know they make some polymer .45, but I have not seen the reason to go buy one when I shoot just as well or better with the 9mm. Practice ammo is cheaper too.

Just a few thoughts on the subject. YMMV

Tromping around the SW border is a lot different than running to the gas station for a can of dip....

I typically feel perfectly comfortable with 13 rounds at my disposal while running errands or driving interstate in most parts this country.


Travis

For a CCW single stack 1911 1 up the pipe and an 8 round mag with a spare 10 rounder give 19 rounds. That's easy to cary and packs a bigger punch.

A polimer high capacity 45 is also an option

Nothing trumps shot placement, and if you've even done a cursory review of gunfights, you'll see shot placement tends to be sorely lacking. One properly placed shot ends the fight, multiple magazines of fringe hits won't.

I see everybody's having the usual fun with this one.
From what I've seen, having a gun in your vehicle when in places where you might need it is a bad idea. One of my closest friends is a retire LEO that lost not one, but two guns because they were left in his car instead of being on his person. In one case, he stoped for lunch in a shaky neighborhood near the freeway in Stockton, Ca. In the other case, he stepped out of his car at an ATM, in a nice neighborhood, BTW, and a gang banger jumped in his still running car and took off with it.
I had my truck broken into when I left a gun case in plain sight that wasn't odviously empty. All they took was the empty case, nothing else. This was out in the sticks where there isn't suppose to be a crime problem.
As I've said many times, if I need to carry something, I need to carry a real gun with plenty of performance to do the job right on the BG's. E

OTOH...

I have a good friend who is seriously into the defensive handgun thing. He has figured out how to conceal a pistol in his car, while allowing him quick access.

He has challenged several friends, as well as his FBI agent daughter, to find the hidden gun, and they haven't been successful.

Paul

In my opinion having your carry gun in the car is about as good as having it at home in the safe.

I know sometimes guys with ccw permits have to leave them in the car but to think the gun in the car will save you is just wishful thinking.

Dink

I�m coming into this very late, but JWP isn�t that the description of the hit from a 9mm Silvertip, the round they say �failed�.

It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.

I don't spend my money at establishments that forbid licensed law abiding CCW holders to enter.

That's the way I remember it, and I attended one of the FBI's extensive debrief's on the fight. Many in the FBI brass were trying to place the blame for how the incident went down to the "failure" of the 9mm Silvertip, when you can see by reading the report, that particular bullet did a pretty darned good job of tearing up a whole lot of tissue and WAS a fatal shot. Had the bullet penetrated the heart, he would have died sooner, but fortunately most of the FBI instructors were smart enough to discern that if the bullet reached the heart, the outcome of the shootout wouldn't have changed significantly.

Destruction of the heart will still keep the victim conscious for 30-45 seconds, and much of the dammage Platt did, was in that 30 seconds.

The primary reason for all the damage done to the FBI agents was insufficient use of cover during the firefight.

After the fight, the FBI switched to the 10mm, and I haven't met a single instructor who really thniks that a different cartridge would have significantly changed the outcome of that fight. The outcome was dictated by tactics, not the choice in wepons or ammunition.

Kevin, I'll bet the FBI just wanted some new guns. ;-)

I agree that a different cartridge may not have changed the outcome, but deeper penetration with the same cartridge would have. Dr. Fackler as well as other medical professional have stated that if the bullet would have taken out the heart that 35 to 45 seconds would have been about all that Platt could have remain a danger, instead of the 4 1/2 minutes that he remained so. The failure of the 9mm ammo that day was penetration

The other hit on PLatt that could have made a difference was the bullet that went through his forearm knocking a triangular shaped chuck of bone out yet let his right hand able to still pull the trigger of his Mini-14. The bullet was either a 38, 357 or 9mm, since the bullet was not recovered there is no way to know for sure which cartridge it was fired from. Perhaps a large caliber would have rendered his right hand useless by knocking out a large enough chuck of bone that the bone was completely severed.

The differences in a 45 over a 9 is not a great deal, but even if it is only 1% I want tyhat 1% on my side

And I would never deny a guy a new gun.

I liked their choices in guns at that point, and I liked the 1076 even though they weigh a ton. The FBI has always had good taste in guns, and usually have had pretty darned good training. The S&W 459 was THE 9mm that all 9mm armed agents were carrying. While It�s perhaps my least favorite S&W handgun, it did perform just fine that day (with the exception of the one that took a .223 hit � can�t fault the gun for that).

As sad as this incident was, it lead to new choices in arms, ammunition, and training. Dove and Grogan did not die in vain. They died stopping two extremely dangerous felons, and in the aftermath, every cop, federal agent, and even us civilians, who takes up arms in defense, does so with better arms and ammunition. And every federal agent since then has received better training (although, Grogan was well known as being one of the highest trained agents with his sidearm).

Well said, Mr. Gibson.

hey, you ever been 50-80 miles out in the desert from nobody and run OUT of dip? I usually carry a couple of cans of skoal too. If i run out of supplies and am stuck at least i am going to spit some tobacco on the ants that eat me.

for what it's worth i am kind of on the side of big bore pistols. Having said that, i picked up some 9mm 115grn winchester ammo last week running at about 1350fps. A load a FBI type working the border carried in a back up gun, not my first choice by the way, that is a .45 or a 10mm if given the choice.
the fbi guy was carrying that stuff in a little 9mm in a ankle rig

There is some interesting stuff in this thread that does bring back some memories. One is of the adrenelin running through my system quite a while after a situation where i thought i was going to have to pull a trigger, at 1100pm in an alley facing a guy with a .357magnum that was out of his mind.
Thank God he cooperated.
Not all situations are one on one.
Another time another deputy and i had two revolvers where we had to face down about ten very drunk armed bikers that were firing over the tops of cars. I was very aware of those few six rounds.
We used to practice what now would be called not politically correct a "mexican quail shoot."
the drill was because of stopping a car and having a bunch of people pile out with various levels of threat.
You stood in a ring, facing away from the range. They placed six numbered six inch circles at various distances from two to ten yards, numbered in no order one to six.
at the signal you had to turn and fire in order one to six, and reload and put 12 rounds into the targets in less than 12 seconds.
I could do that generally in about 8 seconds with a model 19.
Accept it is a lot different when somebody is looking back at you and is armed.
Running the desert with the narcos and assorted other threats call for tactics unlike shopping at the 7 /11.
The truth is, you are dead if somebody wants you so. They have had a number of situations in the southern part of the state with spotters armed with high powered scoped rifles overlooking drug shipments. You generally just don't see them.
A few years ago, a b.p. officer was sniped around naco at night with what they figure was a rifle with a thermal imaging device.
But you even the odds as much as possible.
nuts, they have found pot plantations run by mexican nationals within 50miles as the crow flies north of phoenix. I still feel more comfortable as a precaution because i would run like hades if i had a chance rather than get in a situation, having a high capacity rifle with a good scope and a sidearm generally a 10mm or .45 high capacity on the quad or with me.
I really don't know many people that go into the backareas anymore that are not packing.
Having said all that, a few friends are really really good with a revolver, and i have more respect for them and their mind set than i do with some fool with a rifle/pistol looking like villa that doesn't know how to use the equipment

I personally believe that caliber and type of weapon are very important, but not only because of stopping power. What it has to do with is not being overgunned, or undergunned, but properly gunned-and it means using a weapon you are familiar with and handle well, one with which you have confidence that it will put your opponent down.
Law enforcement and civilian encounters certainly seem to be different in at least two significant ways-LEO's are doing their job, while regular folks are just going about their lives. The kind of circumstances that surround professional interaction will differ from those with the perpetrator(s) searching for a victim. Secondly, LEO's are working as agents of the state, while regular folks are acting as individuals. In my opinion, these two conditions create significant differences in mindset.
Mindset is very important. Every encounter that developed in which I have knowledge, was ended through determination and intent. In the case where the would-be carjackers were foiled with a SAA .45 Colt, if they had not stopped their armed attack, they would have been shot, period.
It is often the case that regular folks find themselves compromised when targeted. The wife and kids are vulnerable, maybe Grandma is screaming. The choice to defend oneself in this situation is instinctual, immediate, and without logical thought.
It may seem ridiculous to imagine that 5 .45 Colt rounds could = an effective defense, where so many are speaking of multiple hi-cap mags and backup guns, but then we are not talking about owning a jewelry store, or a pharmacy.
Again, in the cases I have knowledge, or experience, the intent and confidence of the intended victim turned the tables. Least ways, that's how I see it.

Mak you make some good points. Here my take on that though. Lets say you are standing in a jewelry store or pharmacy when two armed men walk in it. There are with a SAA 45 and five rounds. How fast can you get that pistol into action? After the first shot how long does it take you to recover from recoil, cock the hammer and re-acquire a sight picture?

In my opinion a guy armed with glock 19 is way better off. The guy with the glock will shoot it faster and probaly better under stress. All the guy with glock has to do is worry about sight picture and trigger control.

Dink

Of the shootings I'm familar with, so called recovery time between shots/ speed of draw, etc. makes no difference. That means no particular gun and load comnbination makes a difference. What makes the difference is the guy that can draw and shoot well enough to prevail.
In some situations, you have all time you need. In others, you have no time at all. E

Eremicus what shootings would those be? I would like to read about self defense shootings where one has all the time they want to draw,shoot and take there time making follow up shots.

Dink

Dink, that would be the ambush shootings!!!!!!!

Leave it to "E" to portrait a deadly force encounter as a leisurely activity

One of the other posters here has had the same experience as I have in LE using their duty systems Vs Cowboy Action Shooters using 1800's guns & gear. The CAS shooters REGULARLY beat the LE teams, I even did it once using cap & ball revolvers and BP cartridges in my lever action rifle & double barrel coach gun. And ya gotta realize I spent 30 years in LE before I got involved in CAS!

Now also realize we are shooting short range (10 yards for handgun) and have to use TWO revolvers for the course of fire and LE I 15-16 round semi-auto. It is more about technique that the gun, two handed I can fire my SA revolver ACCURATLY faster than a Glock 19!

I will admit to using a revolver longer as a duty weapon than a semi-auto pistol, but I also competed in IPSC and other "action" shooting with a 1911 for the same time period.

In my book there's a big difference between "all the time you need", as E wrote, than "all the time you want".

Wow now that is something I really want to read about. Every fight reguardless of types of weapons used or not used is about speed and impact placement (bullet, fist, edged weapon ect). E you contradict yourself. "What makes the difference is the guy that can draw and shoot well enough to prevail." Which would mean what to you as far as drawing goes? Speed? Accuracy? Ablity to aquire the target in a timely fashoin?

Yeah - sometimes the lack of reading comprehension in this place astounds me.

If you prevailed in a gunfight, seems to me you had "enough" time. Maybe just enough, and maybe not what you'd like. Want/need...two entirely different things.

In my limited experience, gunfights either involve a close range deal that is over really quick with a minimum number of shots fired, or it is a long �run and gun� with a LOT of shots fired and very few hits. The more �run,� especially if occurring on both sides of the fight, the less hits. For someone whose only goal is to survive rather than take out the bad guy, the key is fire a couple of rounds and move, preferably in an opposite direction and laterally, rather than sticking around and duking it out. If you are trapped in your bedroom, you are in the former situation. If you are out on the street, you are in the latter. I think people would be better off learning how to shoot than compensating for lack of ability with firepower.

FreeMe E wrote that the speed of draw and recovery time between shots makes no difference in the gunfights that he is familiar with.

I have researched literally thousands of gunfights. I have hours of video tape of actual shootings. I have talked with probaly 50-100 people that have survived shootings in LE or civillian setting. Everyone I have ever asked to tell me there story has always glad to tell it. I have also never had anyone that would not answer questions about this or that reguarding their shooting.

The one thing everyone has told me that it happens so fast that you never have enough time. The faster the gun comes from the holster to the target the better. The first man to get bullets on target usually wins. Not one time has anyone told me they just took there time and won.

There is a cop on the east coast, still on the job the last I heard, that had killed 10 people in the line of duty. He still carries a revolver and is supposed to the fastest person on his department. I also know that he is a IDPA champion. I wonder why pratices to that level he will always have enough time right?

Dink

Dink, I'll agree that Eremicus seems to have contradicted himself within that post. But the last line about "enough time"...Logic is with him there.

Maybe the question that hangs you up there is "enough time for what?" Certainly not to feel comfortable and unhurried, but I don't think that was the idea he was presenting. Anyway - his key point...that gun and caliber aren't as important as the shooter's ability...I don't think you have an argument with that.

To a point that is correct, but a 22 LR is a handy cap IMHO. A good shooter with the proper mentality and the better caliber weapon has stacked the odds in his favor more so than some one with a less appropriate weapon IMHO

I think you make some good points. I've been making the very same points for many years myself.

Two comments, though:

1) It's still worth it to have back up ammo, because after the shooting is over, you don't know what's going to happen in the next few seconds, so there's a time when you would appreciate the reloads.

2) Lots of folks realize they don't have enough gun the first time they are "almost" in a bad situation and start trying to imagine how they'd have handled it with their pocket .380. They often immediately step up to something that might not be as easy to carry concealed, but which they have a good bit more confidence in.

No such thing as too much. Too little, on the other hand, is always possible. It's not a matter of where you live, either. You cannot make an appointment for a gun fight. That's the point of the handgun, i.e., it's always there just in case. That said, currently I'm carrying a Kahr P-9 right side IWB and two spare mags left side in a belt pouch, totaling 19 rounds. The mags actually have the added benefit of balancing out the load making (surprisingly) for more comfortable carry.

You know where "New York reload" came from? For a long time, the New York City police department was lagging behind other departments around the country in terms of updating police handguns and ammunition. NYC cops were forced to carry a Model 10 revolver loaded with lead round nose bullets through most of the 1980s, when other departments had already switched to modern hollow points and semi-autos, and those who were still using revolvers were at least switching to hollow points in them, and upping to magnum.

The NYC police had a loophole, though, that said they were permitted to carry anything they wanted as a "backup" gun, so many were opting for high capacity semi-autos. In practice, these "backup" guns were the first guns they drew if needed, and their Model 10s became their "NY reload." Anyway, that's what a retired New York Deputy Sheriff, whose son had just recently joined the NYPD, told me back in the 1980s.

This situation didn't last long, though, as in the 1990s NYPD switched to Glock 17s.

Very interesting posts. Now it makes me think, my 4" GP100 is obsolete and inadequate, perhaps time to upgrade to 9mm.

+1 He's a hero for staying and defending what's his.

That's part of the story. Another part are shootings when police, with weapons drawn, repeatedly warn the bad guy to desist and shoot him when he doesn't. Another part is the 2-million times per year civilians defend themselves with firearms without even firing a shot. If an encounter comes down to speed the good guy has already made a mistake. Sure, having the skill to make up for the mistake is always good thing.

I think E put it perfectly: Take all the time you need. Anything less means a miss or counting on a lucky hit, aka, spray & pray.

He got out after the last shooting. The guys he killed were gangbangers and the gang planned on taking him out after that. He now does business in a secret location with a very private clientele. He won't even let his face be shown on tv any more.

As to civilian reloads during a gun fight in which shots are fired after the reload, I have been searching for some cases for over 10 years and have not really found any. I don't really consider this jeweler your typical civilian scenario as he was more like a electro-bullet-magnate with his high dollar wares. I also never understood why in addition to the guns he had planted all over the store he never had one on his person...

Bob

E's a cop, he has observed, responded to, reported on, and read dozens of reports on the matter.

I think, in a technical sense, a person who won had all the time he needed, whether he realized it or not, and whether he wanted more or not.

I have to be honest here. I normally carry when out of the house but I never carry a reload with me but after reading this I think I will start carrying a spare mag. from now on....

Dink can't help being an idiot.

Dink, for your further edification...E didn't say "all the time they want". He said all the time they need. The point is that if the shooter needs more time to make his shot but doesn't take it, he's dead anyway because he missed. If he didn't, it was blind luck. So you either trust skill or luck and if you trust skill, you must give yourself the time it takes to deploy that skill.

Hawk is on to something here.

One of the greatest parts of a spare magazine is the ability to return your weapon into 100% functional condition. Many malfunctions involve removal of a magazine to clear. If you�re in the heat of the moment, it�s a whole lot easier to just drop the offending magazine and insert a new one. Also, because no one has ever counted rounds fired in a gunfight, and since chances are you�re watching the threat, not your gun, a cursory reload at the end of an engagement is a pretty good idea. After the shooting is done, a quick change of magazines gives you some real peace of mind:

1: You now know how many rounds are in the gun
2: You now know the status of your gun; it�s working. Without the reload, your gun could have jammed on that last round and depending on the type of jam (3 point for instance), it�s quite unlikely you�re aware of it, because again, you�re watching the threat.

You go forth with a fully loaded and 100% functioning weapon; I don�t know what else you could ask for (other than to not be there in the first place)

And Hawk�s point number two is a very good one. I don�t know how many times I�ve heard of people who have found themselves in a gunfight with a small hideout gun, who immediately told themselves they would never carry a small gun again. A handgun with questionable abilities will become the biggest worry in your entire world should you ever have to use it. Why do you think JWP is so hell bent on carrying a .45? He�s aware of this and is taking every reasonable precaution to �have enough gun�.

Now as a former medic, I�ve been to the scene of many shootings involving officers using 9mm�s. Honestly, I have never seen any who didn�t get the job done quite well with their 9�s, so I don�t worry about the 9mm as much as JWP does; but we have different experiences and different viewpoints. Still, given the choice, I�d much rather have my LW Commander in .45 than most any other pistol in the world, regardless of design, cartridge, etc.

There are times where a pocket gun is the only thing I have, and I hate that. And although I don�t think that the cartridge debate is really worth debating when reasonable proven cartridges are the choice, I personally believe that the .45 ACP is the best self defense cartridge developed to date. That�s not to say that the 9mm or .40 aren�t perfectly capable cartridges, just that the .45 ACP is the benchmark as far as this guy�s concerned.

It apears that you can't help being a "DICK"

maybe this will help

+1. That was stated as well as I have ever read. Well done

Playing the devil's advocate - you're making a revolver look like the better choice.

Since you're not likely to count rounds, you'd still reload the revolver. But a revolver is a good choice.

Kevin I do agree that the .45acp up close and personal is a great choice for a self-defense weapon. However, I also know that the 10mm is NO....Cat's Behind!

So to make a long story short my friend of the forum, I will only say that I carry under my left arm the Glock model 21-sf in 45acp and on my right hip a Glock model 20 or 29 depending.

I don't believe a person should rush out and purchase a .45acp if they surely can't handle it or the 40cal Smith & Wesson either. However, I was glad to see my wife move up finally to her Glock model 27 in .40cal.

Nah, my evil side was pointing out the notion of carrying extra magazines in case of magazine-related problems.

The CHEERLEADER has spoken. How does it feel to have to wait and see how a thread is going to go before you can reply?

E wrote that the speed of the draw and speed of follow up shots does not matter. I am asking what shootings he is refering to so I can study those.

I am an idiot and your the one that had start a thread because you were to stupid to trim new brass.

Dink

Only in your mind.

someone carrying can "ramp up" all they want, but a good strategy is to assume the other guy has also. If you don't assume the bad guy is at least as good as you, thats your first big mistake. If you get that far then, there are 3 outcomes--- you win, he wins, its a draw, in any case your chances of winning are only 33%. An armed society is a polite society.

Only in your mind is more like it

If E suggested that 22lr is fine for defense, I have to admit that I missed that. I do still have to be reminded occasionally that there are some folks who think the 22lr is a good defense round. I am not one of them. I draw the line at 9mm (and accept that some will be content with .380). Beyond that, it's the shooter that matters most.

I'm with the "carry a reload" crowd - regardless whether it's auto or revolver.

Hey JOG - If your revolver is empty (which it will be sooner), it's non-functional too, eh? Take that, DA!

Yes. The failure that they Dr. Fackler is refering to is the lack of enough penetration to reach the heart

I'm sorry that I did not respond sooner, I simply missed this post

I agree, I didn�t mean that to disparage any other cartridge, just that the .45 ACP is (thus far) the best marriage of power, recoil, and performance FOR ME. For some, it�s too much power and too much recoil. For some, that perfect marriage of power and performance is the 9mm. Some would say continue training until you can handle a .45, and some would say you�re well armed with the 9mm. That�s up to the individual to decide. I�ve decided that the 10mm in full power loads is more than what I need for self defense; again, that�s me.

All is weighed against your ability to handle the weapon in question. What everyone should understand is�YOUR perfect weapon is not always THE perfect weapon for everyone else. This is why I take issue with those who say the only reasonable choice is the .45 ACP (or any other cartridge). While I agree that the .45 ACP is MY preferred choice, I also know that it�s a piss poor choice for someone who�s not comfortable with it, yet handles a 9mm well. Hits count above all, and not just hits, but good hits. A solid hit right through the boiler room is the starting place. If you don�t have that, then all other considerations are meaningless until you get that part right.

Sweat the big issues, and don�t sweat the little issues. Hits, that�s the big issue. Until you have that, you don�t have the luxury of sweating anything else. And sweating other issues while you haven�t dealt with the hitting issue is just incompetent foolishness.

The difference in caliber choices between the 9mm, 40, 10mm, and 45 is not great, but even if it is only 1% I'll take it

Yeah, that was a very significant finding that lead to major advancements in ammunition, including the 9mm. Some people have focused on that one issue to gloss over the real reasons why agents were shot or killed, which was lack of cover and concealment during the gunfight. In a gunfight, you�re not guaranteed that any bullet will do exactly as you expect to, so the smart money is to place yourself where the bullets aren�t.

It could be debated that the FBI incident would have been different had that bullet penetrated the heart. But as I remember it, the two agents who were killed were hit pretty early on (from memory, nearly 20 years ago admittedly), and even a shot through the heart wouldn�t have guaranteed that Dove or Grogan would not have been killed; although certainly others would have left the scene with less holes in them.

It was a hard lesson, and a very valuable one on the subject of penetration. The FBI started issuing 147 grain 9mm�s that initially didn�t expand at all, and had all the penetration in the world. This over-reaching decision caused several other LE agencies to do likewise, and more than one officer has been shot (and killed) by his own partner, after the bullet had gone through its intended target(Orange County, CA Sheriff's Dept comes to mind). Now days, 9mm 147�s are a pretty awesome round and clearly the best choice for law enforcement; excellent expansion and penetration to match the best of .40 and .45. It was a case of the FBI just going to something that wasn�t properly developed.

These days, we have it all. Good rounds that will do most anything we ask them to do in most common defensive cartridges. Even the once anemic .38 Special is an excellent performer in +P loadings, out of a 3� or longer barrel, with many factory loads handily passing the FBI�s requirements. Let�s hope and pray none of us ever have occasion to need to rely on a firearm to save our hides.

In my mind and in everyone else's that read the entire paragraph in context, and didn't parse out one sentence to twist it.

No, there is a hell of a lot of difference between "making no difference" and "having all of the time one needs"

The 2 statements are contradictory, weather or not you can see that and mean totally different things

The staement that the speed of the draw makes no difference in dicates that you has all the time that he wants

JWP - some of us get that E sometimes is a little hard to understand, due to some lack of care in his writing. Kinda like yourself.

I'm pretty sure that he didn't mean to suggest that we all should take our sweet time. Stupid, he ain't.

You are most likely correct.

Gotta jump back in and admit I probably suffer from same....

in the regular forum there is a post about a b.p. agent being killed last night in pecks canyon. In this thread i wrote about running the desert and being prepared. I might add i was in pecks canyon a couple of years ago very tough country.
it hasn't changed much, the following might add perspective.
http://www.gvrhc.org/Library/PeckCanyon.html
as the guy said, watch your topknot.

Of course you're right. Then again, I'd rather be what you say I can't help being than the opposite thereof. "Appearantly" you see it differently and that is your right.

I've reloaded for thirty years or so son. During that time, it was mostly so I could shoot more and that entailed almost 100% of my own used brass. It actually never occurred to me that manufacturers would sell brand new cases that were so out-of-spec that they needed to be trimmed before loading them, so yes, I guess you got me there.

So after 13 pages of hashing the same subject that gets hashed 3 or 4 times a year; did we ever decide who's dick is the biggest?

No one can decide how to measure. Is it length only? Is it girth only? Is it a combination of two? Do the two measurements count equally? Is length more impotant than girth and therefore should be given a higher percentage of the measurement? Or is girth the more important measurement?

No winner declared yet........


How to break the stale mate is the question

There is a reason I refer to everyone else on this thread as my small peckered friends......

Dink

Whoever could demonstrate prehensility would clearly win.

Discussing manhood size on a thread titled "Let's be honest...".


Yeah, right...

You know the old saying...It's not the size of the boat, but the motion of the ocean. Well, all I gotta say is, some guys in row boats better get to paddlin hard.

Since there seems to be some confusion about my comments, I'll add a bit to what I was refering to for clarity sake.
Shootings are intense experiences. One either freezes and does nothing, or one moves or acts faster than ever before in an attempt to prevail. The biggest problem is not one of being fast enough, or getting those repeat shots off fast enough, but making yourself make sure, with an extra fraction of a second, that you hit your target. Ask anyone who has been there how tough it is to slow down just enough to see and use that front sight. The other problem is shooting your gun dry w/o making any, or enough, decent hits to prevail.
I don't know how else to describe it any other way than that. Trust me, as long as you don't fumble badly, you will draw faster than you never thought possible. You will shoot that fast as well.
The biggest difference between the experienced winners and the inexperienced are the experienced take that extra split second to hit the BG. They don't just pull it and blast away with the blind faith that they will hit him if they are only fast enough. E

Sure about that Kevin ?

Bingo..

Dude...get real.

Thank God. Someone actually knows what they're talking about, besides George.

or rubber guns.

Spoken like someone that has never had formal training. If you have recieved any training you should ask for a refund.

Dink

As a general rule, I agree with this. Two real life examples I am thinking about are a cop who didn't get the bad guy until the 9th shot, and another who didn't get the bad guy until the 28th, two shots short of being totally out of ammo. It also is the continual dilemma of the competitive shooter.

It is true that high capacity plastic pistols have found favor in our society. It is also true that firepower, the ability to send a volume of projectiles down range, has also become a perceived necessity. The advantages of such are well documented. What are not as well documented are the shortcomings. The fact that it takes two hands to clear a jam, and that any jam or stovepipe renders your plastic fantastic into a pretty useless club or rock substitute. The fact that few auto pistol rounds match the power and effectiveness of the .45 Colt cartridge.
I think it is important to remember that speed is not the first requirement for surviving a fight. Accuracy is. This has not changed in over 100 years. Perhaps an example would be in order here...
Bill found himself in a fight with a determined opponent. At 40 yards, the opponent began firing at Bill, moving quickly to close the distance, and shooting at the same time. By all measure, he had the drop on Bill. Unfortunately for him, his marksmanship was lacking. Bill took a 2 hand hold on his piece, aimed carefully, with bullets flying all around him, and fired a single shot that struck in the heart, dropped the attacker, and ended his days. A true story, corroborated by many witnesses.
Accuracy trumps both speed and firepower.
If speed is important, with a 2 hand hold the SAA can unleash very rapid shots by using the thumb of the support hand to operate the hammer. Yes, this does take some practice to achieve, but it is still pretty simple. No, it is not as simple as squeezing a trigger, but it is easily mastered.
Are there places where high capacity plastic pistols reign supreme? Most people today think so, therefore I am not arguing this point. However, in my experience and knowledge, a high cap is not essential to self defense IF the would be victim is familiar and confident with his/her weapon of choice.

"Fast is fine, but accuracy is final. You have to be slow in a hurry." - Wyatt Earp

Tha being the case it certainly doesn't matter what caliber is used.

the only social purpose attributable to a handgun is that it gives it's owner something to discuss on bulletin boards and at the barbershop...

i agree with the essence of rocky's post, and would only comment that in a fluid and dynamic battle between armed opponents, it is indeed necessary to present your weapon in a timely manner...
speed of presentation though, and weapon characteristics in such circumstance take a back seat to the ability to place accurate fire on target...
even in battle there is the opportunity to think, act, and respond...
and to will your sight onto target...

priorities must be determined, and i have elected to learn to hone my awareness of threat situations above my speed of weapon presentation...
it bothers me not one whit to alarm others with the sight of a gun in my hand... but my attorney is paid for and speed dial #1 on my phone...

or to run like a scared girl if it will allow me to avoid trouble...

I think its time call this thread "done". While I hate to see a thread get derailed by personal beliefs, I do enjoy being able to pick out other forum members with views and thoughts closely related to my own.......much easier to pick out the good guys in future posts.

lmfao

Dink, you are truly and completely without a clue.

That gun in each hand thing is too much for me - I'd have to set down my booze.

Well almighty great gunfighter tell me what a clue is. Also please list all training you have had.

Please oh great one I need advice from you. Someone not smart enough to trim new brass.

Dink

If I can stop laughing long enough to give you a clue...In all sincerity Dink, maybe you should stop and take a breath and think about what somebody is saying and who you're talking to. Your clue is that I wasn't even talking about myself.

Here's another...for free. Most of the guys on here who have done the most ain't going to list their training and bandy words with you. Believe whatever you want.

I don't have any formal training in little man syndrome either, but attended one of the best LEO academies in the country. Tell us where your AO is that requires so much firepower. To my knowledge, my agency didn't request a refund. Looking foward to your response.

seems like maybe some of us could learn to post about our ways and allow others to post theirs...if another guy is posting stuff that is provably and demonstrably wrong or dangerous, that's one thing...
call that guy out and document what is wrong with his post...

if someone here says something that you don't agree with, it's entirely possible to say so without getting personal....

Well I attended one of the best academy's St.Louis area. I have attended and recieved certificates from:

MSHP pistol instructor
MSHP Shotgun instructor
St. Louis county tactical patrol rifle
St.Louis county patrol rifle intstructor
Chapman Pistol academy pistol course 1 & 2
Sharp shooter 1
Numerous one day and refresher classes

There are probaly more and I can look them up later.

To the instructor they all advised to carry two guns.

I am also a firearms instructor for my department. I always harp on my guys to carry two guns.

Since your so qualified please list the classes you have attended.

Dink

If you're a cop I can see the need for a BUG. A normal guy? Not so much...although I would love to see a confrontation where the BG pulls a knife and Dink is instantly dual-wielding, firing away like a cowboy. I'd pay to see that.

After this horse has been kicked around and beaten a little more, and side tracked a time or two, here's what I've concluded. Obviously your own opinions will differ.

1. If you are a cop or if you're going to a high risk area (or if you sell high dollar watches in a crummy part of town), it's a good idea to carry more firepower if you can.

2. If you're a normal guy, doing his duty to protect himself and those around him, in a normal place, it doesn't really matter what you carry or in what caliber, as long as it's reliable and you know how to shoot, and you can put bullets on target.

I still can't imagine a layman citizen blazing through a couple of high cap mags in a defensive situation. It may have happened a time or two, but I haven't seen the story if it has. I also suspect it would be tough to explain to the cops why you shot 40 times in a public area with guns a 'blazin. If you've got the time to reload a once, or even twice, i'd think you also would have had time to get out of dodge. I'd also suspect that the BG would get out of dodge, if possible.

Are there exceptions? Most certainly. But those situations are very, very few. If I'm that paranoid I'll start wearing extra think rubber shoes so that if I get hit by lightning, I'll survive, and I'll carry a syringe of antihistamine in my pocket in case I'm attacked by killer bees.

I laughed my butt of at the show on the Outdoor Channel called The Best Defense. They were talking about defending your home and techniques to do it. Half of the show was dedicated to how well your shots would penetrate a refrigerator, and then different scenarios with different items in the fridge. Could you shoot through the fridge plus two gallons of milk? What about 1 gallon, and maybe some eggs? It was amusing thinking about any situation where the homeowner would have those thoughts go through his head. "I need to shoot through this fridge...wait..what's inside? Is the gallon of milk empty or full?"

In a normal, peaceful town, just carrying will solve most of my battles. The sight of the gun the sound of a gun will do the trick in most instances. Should the situation be a bad one, it will come down to speed and accuracy.

I'd still love to see any case studies or instances where a normal guy in a normal situation either a)wished he had brought a bigger caliber, and something bad happened because he didn't (I'm sure there are a few of those out there), or b)a normal guy in a normal situation got into a firefight and needed to reload, or shot more than a handful of times.

You know what's great about our country? We can carry what makes us feel good and what works for us. If you're worried you're going to be attacked by a dozen crazy immigrants, and you think you'll need those 45 rounds of .45, by all means, carry 'em. I just think it's a bit overboard.

Good to see someone gets it. You are right on target with everything. I'll just add this if you feel you need those 45 extra rounds maybe you should step-up to a rifle or shotgun.

Hey - go easy on Dink, you guys!

If I knew there was a good chance that I might be confronted by someone who's really pissed at me, I'd carry three guns!






Just funnin' with ya, Dink. The choice to carry more than one gun does make sense to me in certain situations. Being a cop - on duty or off - might be one of those situations.

By the way, I have several other handguns that I shoot regularly, including a glock 29. I have additional firepower if I want or need it, but I feel very safe carrying my Sig P238.

Dryfly there not for dual wielding..LOL. They are in case you take a injury to your strong arm/hand or run a gund dry its faster to use a second gun than to reload.

I have carried two guns everday I have been a cop and will until the day I retire. Carrying two guns off duty just became habit because I have always done it at work.

Dryfly you always wish for a bigger gun. ALways. You will also always want more bullets in your gun. A carry gun has to suit only you and what you want it to be. Alot of guys are happy with a ruger lcp or Smith j frame as there only carry gun. I am not.

I can pm the books and articles that you can read with multiple guns and reloads were used to get through the fight.

[bleep] dual wielding...now thats funny chit.

Dink

Dink, as a cop, you should and could carry as much as you can, like I stated. There's a good chance you'll need it.

Joe Schmoes like me aren't cops.

I think I have to agree with Dink on this one. Im bettin there are plenty of dead Joe Schmoes out there that might not be had they been armed or armed better.
This whole mentality of "it wont happen to me, I dont need that much firepower because im just a normal guy" is all fine and dandy till the $h!t hits the fan.
A whole family in Flordia that was killed last year by multiple,(7 I think it was) gunmen comes to mind. Just regular folks killed in their home.

Sound like you have a long list of one day coffee break classes like every cop I've ever worked with. I too worked with our county ERT which to the uninformed probably sounds impressive. Have a draw full of distinguished pistol expert awards from the county I worked in. Big deal. I asked you about your AO (Area Operation) that you feel the need in to be armed to the teeth ? How many shootings do you experience per month where you are penning a report. I am retired from the job. I'm not interested in a zipper down .com comparison with you or anyone else, but when I hear "this guy taught me this or that" or "I was trained to" I usually stop paying attention. Frankly, guys that carry two guns off duty make me nervous.

Personally, I don't give a chit. You are a dick and your handle fits you well. There are lots of people on here who have been formally trained. My training was US Army.

You could have graduated from Quantico but you'd still be a dick. You show your asss regularly.

CHEERLEADER are still mad that you can't figure out that new brass needs trimmed? Or because your support group ran out for you deer blind?

Cole younger I have to be a dick to you. Its the only way you understand. For crying out loud you posted on a thread yesterday that you knew nothing about the post but posted anyway so everyone would know that you read it. Attention whore.

I really don't care what your opinion of me is. When I post about something it is something I know about or have done. Unlike you I don't need the attention or a support group. Your opinion may not agree with mine opinion but I can give several reason how I came to my opinion.

Don't you have a pom-pom to fluff?

Dink

Wait a minute.....

Carrying a primary and a backup is now "armed to the teeth"? I have had my differences with Dink too - but, come on. I guarantee you that there are places and times that many non-LEO would be well-advised to do the same. The fact that some of you in LE jerk to the "armed to the teeth" in your head bothers me not just a little.

The tactical patrol rilfe that I listed is a class not a team.

I do not work all that many shootings in a year.

If you think a glock 27, spare mag and a smith 642 is armed to the teeth we have a big difference of opinion of what being armed to the teeth is.

So you never were a firearms or tactics instructor? You qualified once or twice a year and done well enough to get a award some years. Thank god that has been done away with.

Its ok not to be into firearms but don't bitch about the guys that take a interest in them. I am sure you are like most of the guys I work with. Bitch that we don't get to shoot enough and then on range days whine "when can we go home".

Dink

Guess it depends on the paths you travel.

IMHO if one decides to be armed, then be armed. not 1/2 azz'ed armed

You have an interesting interpretation of what I said. My dept. had an unlimited supply of training ammo available to those who wanted to utilize it. We also had our own range. My firearms training officer was a good instructor, but I could easily out shoot him on his best day. Myself and a half dozen others shot at least once a month. Again, so what. Thanks for clearing up your lack of real life experiences. Sounds like if the day ever comes, you will be well armed. Hopefully, that day will never come. Have a safe holiday.

Did you read that I stated, off duty ?

I gotta go with DINK on this one as well. That isn't really much if one considers himself an active shooter primary responder 24/7, which I am sure DINK does. Concerning one's self with the incidence of shootings in one's AO is backwards thinking that can get you in trouble and could get you and maybe a bunch of other people unnecessarily hurt or killed. What do you think the incidence of shootings was in Fort Hood prior to 11/5/09? What was the incidence of school shootings in unincorporated Jefferson County (CO) before April 20, 1999?

So, you feel that every cop everywhere should be carrying two guns and ammo off duty.

The New York reload is the fastest reload, don't you agree?

Absolutely not. I feel that every cop everywhere should evaluate his situation, decide what action he will (or is expected to) and will not take off duty, and guide his actions accordingly. If someone comes down on the side of an extra gun, who am I to question his chosen path.

Did you read where I stated I don't give a rip whether it's off duty or even a cop?

Can we stop with the absurd extrapolations?

That's exactly why I was asking him about the type of area he worked in and never got an answer to. If a guy works and lives in Fort Apache (Bronx, NY), it's surely smart to be well armed 24/7. OTH, if a guy works in an area surrounded by corn fields, but watches lots of TV's shows about Fort Apache, and carries two guns off duty, I'm more than alittle concerned about their perception of reality. I don't know how else to explain this.

You lost me ?

I work at a facility surrounded by corn fields and a clerk and shopper were assaulted at the mini mart about 3 min from me. I carry a main sidearm and one of my .380s as a backup. It doesnt matter where you live or work or do business, if there other humans around, bad things are inevitable.

It's just a BUG - not a sack of hand grenades, for cryin' out loud. You're gonna take him to task for that? You may be the one who's perception is a bit skewed.

+1

Rural/Suburban crime is one of the fastest growing in America. Mayberry isn't Mayberry anymore. Drugs & thugs, have changed that forever.

New York Reload Texas Style

That's a good one..

Yep, but people like Rdfinn are unaware of the changing times or have a gross misconception of "reality".

RDFinn I work just outside of St.louis. There is no corn here. I don't get work a ton of shootings but am no stranger to them either. Is that better?

Dink

Much better.

Actually, I'm more aware than you think. I've been involved now for several years helping teens with drug and alcohol addiction and most are from very affluent backgrounds. Frankly, it's heartbreaking.

Just the record, first of all, I'm not a working cop. I'm an ex-cop.
Second, even back in the 60's, even contary to departmental regulations, most of the big city cops I know, or knew, carried two guns on duty, and carried hollow point ammo. So did I. I can explain anything but my own death.
I, for one, have no problem with anybody, cop or otherwise, that thinks carrying two guns while on duty, off duty or as a civilian.
I've stated many times that the worse thing many do when carrying is they go with what I consider toy guns. Another would be leaving them in a vehicle. It needs to be on your person.
Last of all, I ask that we knock off the name calling. All of us have opinions on this. Mine are particularly strong and rigid, I admit that. But I also feel we are all on the same team here. E

Holy crap...It must be Christmas time. I have to agree with you.

Dink

What do you consider "toy guns"? Just curious...

+1.......

I agree Eremicus. Dink rubbed me the wrong way after he made the assumption that he was speaking from experience and I was not along with his stupid comment about "getting a refund" on my training. People shouldn't make assumptions like that. For the record, I carried a full size auto off duty as I've seen many poorly made compact auto's over the years even from Walther which was popular here for a while. The smallest auto I carried was a Beretta 92 FSC.

Deleted

I've always carried two guns, both when i worked uniform and now in plain clothes. Usually duty wpn. & a J-frame in an ankle holster. When off-duty i carry, normally two guns also.

I also carry an extra mag. That along with a small Surefire flashlight, as i do on duty.

The one additional item i carry is handcuffs or a flex-cuff. You got to ask yourself, what are you going to do with the person you shoot or don't shoot?

You may end up taking a person into custody. It can be along time till Five-O gets there. A flex-cuff aka. a heavy tiewrap is easy to tape to the inside of your belt. You may never need it, but you might wish you had it.

You had to make the comment about me getting a clue. Not only do I have a clue but is backed by hundreds of hours of training and years of packing a pistol for a living. You may not like my opinions and thats fine but my opinions are based on years of training and teaching firearms. Not from the internet or hearsay from the gunshop.

Dink

Never said you didn't have a clue. I told you to "get real" after reading your comment about having or needing a gun for each hand. Still stands. Just wanted you to realize that you are not alone in your LEO world.

But...this is the internet. All the training and experience in the world means nothing without being able to convey the lessons learned to the reader.

"Because I said so" just ain't gonna cut it.

That's Chief talk..

I am horrible about being able to get my lessons learned across to not only readers but to my guys. I am a very knowledgeable instructor but not a very good teacher. I take for granted that people look at the world as I do.

Dink

Well, it probably works for Chiefs...and my Mother.

Your guys probably do look at the world as you do, so don't sweat it if the people you are trying to teach on the Internet do not. The ability to flesh out the nuances on a thread contributes to everyone's learning process.

I agree with Clint Smith when he says 'two is one and one is none.' When I get my CCP, I'll apply that philosophy to both guns and reloading measures.

As for caliber/capacity, eh. Depends.

I consider all autos in .380 or less as toys. I consider all revolvers with barrels less than 2.5 inches and/or carrying lead .38 special ammo as toys.
BTW, I'll second the idea of a flex cuff on the inside of your belt if you have any intention of detaining anyone. E

While I think I know where you were going with this I have never, nor will I ever, consider a .38 snub or a PPK a "toy". For instance I'm pretty sure I'd take it REAL personal if somebody pointed either of them at me.

I'd take it serious if someone pointed a pellet gun at me. Yet I do not consider it a reasonable choice for self defense

What are we talking about...a matter of degree? In that case I'd still consider the snub .38/.380 as a much greater threat/assett (depending on which end I was relative to the muzzle) than a pellet gun. If you mean I'd rather have my G29 than any of the above in a SD situation then yeah, I would.

I'm just having a hard time reconciling a .38 snub or .380 and the term "toy", even in SD terms. I may be just being a little too harsh with E's choice of words but still..."toy"?

Classic caliber smack. A 380 a toy? I'd bet there are many thousands of widows out there who would beg to differ.

Funny, i've seen folks shot graveyard dead with a 22, and folks survive a 45.

Corrected - I have deleted my last post...Impulse got the better of me and I acted in haste. My apologies to anyone I may have offended. I'll just butt out and mind my own business.

I use the term "toy" because that's what they feel like and how they often perform if you really need a gun. Just my own experiences with them. I get reminded of those old experiences every time I pack a full size, heavy gun and get annoyed by it's weight or bulk.
Feel free to pack whatever suits you. I feel like I'm getting away with something alot lighter and smaller when I pack a handgun rather than a rifle. E

Excellent idea.

I have a flashlight addiction. I don't carry one everywhere, but carry one A LOT. I've almost always got two or three in the vehicle. I sometimes carry a Surefire but now have more advanced ones that I usually have along.

I always, always, always carry my SureFire LX2 Lumamax. Most people seem to have an obsession with carrying knives, which I don't get. I never carry a knife except for work, and even then I rarely use it. The flashlight is only slightly less essential than the gun. Even in the daytime, we spend a lot of time in places with artificial lighting, which is prone to failure or , as DINK mentioned earlier, intentional tampering.

In my little burg, no way.. But in North Murderapolis, you'll be totally outgunned and SOL - and that's in the daytime..

If I live in an area that I need that much firepower to feel safe on the street,I'm finding a different place to live ASAP.[/quote] Ezzackly..

Given the high capacity semi-auto, does this imply that 6-shot revolvers are outdated and absolute?

Kinda got nervous reading those articles about hikers running into those pot fields. Starting to think that I'd be under-arm with my GP100...scary thought and feeling!

These threads always make me go heft a Glock Model 22 at the gun store for a few weeks. One of these days I'm gonna have $500 or so burning a hole in my pocket and actually get one.

Yes, definitely got me thinking of getting one of those hi-capacity polymer striker-fire semi-auto pistols.

The most terrifying sound in the world is a "Click" When you are expecting and needing to hear a "BANG"

jwp475,

that would indeed be a terrifying sound to hear!

Seems like everyone who is likely to actually need a sidearm (ie Cops, Military etc...) transitioned to autos a long time ago.

For my own part I carried a .357 j-frame for years and like most of us, never ran into a situation wherte I felt I might need to draw it. This year has been highly unusual, for the first time in about twenty years I actually put a hand upon a handgun in fear, twice (once around a big feral hog, once with a would-be mugger).

Didn't have to draw either time, but both times, at that very moment of uncertainty, I woulda preferred the option of maybe thirty or fifty rounds on tap if that were possible

Anyhoo... I since bought a Glock 29

Birdwatcher

Birdwatcher,

Originally I bought my 4"GP100 357 mag as a woods loafing/trail gun. It seems everytime the discussion comes up about this subject it turns into a bear gun thread.

We only have black bear around here and while I understand that 357mag is not ideal and barely adequate for this type in encounter, it would be a rare occassion, I believe.

Game commission has mention that we are starting to have a feral hog problem. So perhaps this type encounter, coyotes, feral dogs (my main concern), and rapid racoon, skunk type situations.

I think a midsize 357mag would/will prove challenging to carry conceal??

Anyways, I had not really given thought about meth/pot dealers in our national forest, etc. Guess I was kinda naive about it??

IMHO, the 10mm would probably be the most ideal semiauto pistol for dual function of woods and carry conceal gun. Probably somewhere between the 357mag and 41mag powerwise??

I much prefer to have just one handgun to use for everything. IMHO you cant put a price on the value of having a weapon one is very famliar with in all settings and with all loads if TS ever HTF.

The compact Glock 29 makes a lot of sense to me, especially as in addition to the hot woods loads worked up for it (as you say, a bit less than a .41 mag) there are milder self defense loads just a bit hotter than standard .40 S&W fare.

Another factor to consider is that I can shoot, especially the hotter rounds, faster and more accurately from a semi-auto than I can with a revolver.

OTOH, most likely that Ruger will serve all your handgun needs forever. Comes down to preference I guess, but a Glock 29 would be a tad easier to carry.

The biggest downside to the 10mm right now is the high cost and limited availability of factory ammo.

Birdwatcher

Birdwatcher,

Yes the downside to the 10mm would be high cost and limit availibilty of factory ammo. It also looks like the manufacturers have download the 10mm a little from it's original introduction?

It's also a catch-22 for the 357mag in that the 180gr and 200gr loads are available via speciality/boutique manfucturers with their higher cost ammo.

Guess that's the price we have to pay for want to have one good fill both roles, but it's a trade-off that we seem we can live with.

For availability of ammo a 45 ACP is hard to beat. The 45 ACP will work in the defense of 4 or 2 legged predators

There are a few ammo makers that load the 255 grain hard cast in the 45 ACP Double Tap and Buffalo Bore come to mind

The Double Tap offering is loaded to an advertised speed of 875 FPS and is of a Semi wad cutter deign

The Buffalo Bore offering is a round nose flat point at an advertised 925 FPS

Either load puts the 45 ACP a bit higher on the food chain

"Power" is such a relative term it can give a guy a nosebleed. The .45 ACP is usually considered a more powerful cartridge than the 9mm Luger, yet the latter will routinely out-penetrate the former. If bone-penetration is the goal, such as stopping a charging hog, an argument can be made for the 9mm over the .45 ACP.

A similar comparison can be made with the .357 Mag vs. the 10mm. A 158-grain .357 has a higher sectional density than a 180-grain 10mm, so fired at the same velocity the .357 will provide greater penetration.

Birdwatcher's way of approaching the problem is the way to go. Choose a cartridge with sufficient power, but focus on the platform. A charging hog probably won't be able to tell the difference between 6 rounds of .357 Mag or 10mm, but in Birdwatcher's case the Glock 29 provides 5 additional rounds in a package that's easier to carry. AND, the number one consideration: easier to hit with.

Sd will not consistently indicate the best penetrator. Too many other variables

In the few 45 acp semi-auto pistols I've tried, most of the grips were too big for my hands. The only grips that fit well where 1911's, a couple of different kimbers and GI springfield.


I didnt know about those special 45acp loads from double tap and buffalo bore. Would those put it about the 357mag with 180gr loads from the same manufacutrer?

SD is where everything starts and is the only indicator until a variable is added.

You're right though, bullet manufacturers add lots of variables, so without the shooter deducing how the variables affect penetration the usefulness of SD is limited.

I shoot the Buffalo Bore loads in both 45 ACP and Super. I have found them to shoot and function very well out of my 1911's. These loads are on par with the old Black Powder 45 Colt loads and they were rather effective

But nose profile certainly will.

Read up to page 6 and got bored. I work in LE and have had my issued G22 out on numerous occasions. Its not my first choice in weapons, but its what Uncle Sugar says I HAVE to pack, so its on my belt every day. That being said, I feel pretty confident that unless I'm ambushed, I know I can get the gun out of the holster quicker than the majority of "range rats", and the instinctive shooting drills forced upon me for years will up the odds that my bullets will be causing some damage. The vulnerable part for me is when I'm off shift going for groceries, movie, etc... I've thought long and hard about my concealed weapon choice, and it comes down to one point for me: What will I ALWAYS have with me?
I own numerous weapons that would work, but the act of putting them on and concealing them is often more work than my lazy butt is willing to do when the odds of getting in a fight are so low. For that reason alone, I picked up a P-3AT when they came on the market and got a belt clip for it, as well as a pocket holster. Its as small as my wallet, and goes with me EVERYWHERE I go. I can't say I would have the discipline to pack a larger weapon 100% of the time. I would much rather have a 380 on me than a 45 in my truck.
For perspective, I live in a rural MT county that has less people than most "towns". Two summers ago we were finishing up dinner when my wife commented that she was making brownies and some ice cream would sure go well with them. I grabbed my 4yo son and headed down to the local store to get some vanilla. While paying my tab at the counter, a lady ran into the store screaming that the gas station across the street was being held up. These things happen so rarely that packing a firearm would seem senseless in most peoples minds. Wearing shorts and a t-shirt, I still had the 380 clipped to me, and felt confident I could protect the young life that was given to me, as well as my own. I know for a fact I would not have been carrying that summer evening if my only back-up would have been something large enough to require a holster/belt. The perp never came across the street, and was apprehended, but knowing I could protect the lives around me at the time if he had came in, reinforced my commitment to always have a gun.
You can blow all the hot air you want across a keyboard, but I feel pretty certain that most, if not all, of you have found yourselves in shorts, flip-flops, and a t-shirt on a hot summer day with no weapon at your disposal. Check in w/ me any day of the year...on my boat catching fish, going to get the mail, out stoking the furnace, feeding horses, etc... and I'll be armed. It may be a "pea shooter" in your opinion, but it's 100% of the time on me, and I shoot the snot out of it and know I can put one through your noggin if you force me to make that decision.

Nah, Q - I never wear flip-flops. "Victim shoes", ya know.

Good post.

I've had some words with Dink, don't like how he carries himself thru communication on here and it's a bit troubling to me to see guys that have a bit of the "tude" to know they are LEO. But I always try to give some margin of error by this mode of communication, I don't always get my point across or come across as I like to think of myself either. Who knows? If we knew each other in real life, we might find we have enough in common to be friends.


with that said, I can't fault his decision to carry two weapons as part of his off duty attire. We're shaped by our experiences, while I've seen nada to indicate Dink has made claims to actually being in a gunfight, he's around folks that have been on a regular basis both LEO and civilian. He also teaches and attends many firearm classes it seems.


guys that backpack hunt regularly or spend mucho time in the woods know how important it is to carry more than 1 type of firestarter. It happens very seldom that you EVER need more than your primary firestarter. But if it EVER happens that your primary has given up the ghost and you need a F'ing fire RIGHT NOW, for survival, even us ounce counters are glad we had backups.

for the casual, once or twice a year hiker, I imagine they feel perfectly comfortable taking a nature hike with just a bic lighter.

not me, when I step off the pavement (hell who am I kidding, even on pavement) I'll have more than one bic lighter, in the woods I'll also have a striker system and mag shavings and vaseline soaked cotton balls and a bit of innertube.

we're shaped by our environment and our experiences.

if you spent a large time of your work day discussing and preparing for self defense or the application of force to defend others as LEO's do. I'd say more than a few of us would opt for extra magazine and secondary weapon.


just think how many of you are comfortable carrying daily?

yeah it was a learning curve, but over time you found a holster or a system that was comfortable and workable for you and eventually guys that carry it's as uncomfortable to NOT carry as it is to forget your wallet or keys or cell phone.

but to most folks that don't carry regularly, the idea of hanging a 20 oz. piece of metal and polymer off their body seems strange or foreign. Most of their responses would be "why do you even need a gun?"

where here I see many express the sentiment "why do you need two guns?"

for those of us that are self sufficient, the idea of why do you need a gun is simple. If my family is in harms way, I don't have time to wait for a cop.

and truthfully if the chit ever hits the fan, we'd all prefer to be packing an 870, but it's not practical. So more than a few around here have developed a system to carry something.

for me self defense calibers begin with a .4, but that's just me, I don't sneer at a guy that chooses a 9mm


the next best thing to having a gun of sufficient caliber IS to have two in case Murphy is working overtime that day.

in hunting it's bullet placement
bullet placement
bullet placement
choosing the correct bullet to place
platform for delivering said bullet
and then caliber ime.


for self defense imo it's ; mindset and awareness

proficiency with your platform

bullet selection

caliber


the stakes are way so much higher on self defense that imo there's not as much gap between the criteria even though I typed it that way.

after those things are taken care of, the next logical step is to have a second magazine for your primary and/or a second handgun

We took a trip to Florida a long time ago, when car jacking was the rage down there at that time, took my toddler daughter, my pregnant wife, my mom and my stepdad.

I had a .45 acp, 3 spare mags, and a .38 snub nose

some folks would say I was paranoid, but I see it as prepared.


but then I try to do that with all aspects of my life, with food stuffs, gasoline and heating fuel(s), finances and insurance. It's amusing to my family, till the chit hits the fan, that's when a Boy Scout turns into a hero for those that are under his protection.

every year I renew my house fire insurance and we've never had a house fire. but it's there just in case.

that's how Dink is with his secondary piece imo, it's there just in case.

it's insurance that you only pay for once, I love that type of insurance.

we laffed last night as we went to inspect and meet a painter at the location for my wife's new biz. Electricians had turned the power off, no lights. I happened to have 3 flashlights on my person. A small one that stays on my person, one in my vest and another in my coat.

might even been a firearm close by, or two or three, maybe.

Fact is... ALL handgun calibers, at least ones you'd carry... are inadequate. You want a quality short range defense weapon... get a freakin' Shot Gun. Shootability and Reliability are paramount... caliber is about 8th on the list of considerations for a carry/defense handgun.

8th, really?

You recommend going out to diner with your with while carrying a shotgun?

I had it at number 4

to each his own

All I have to be is less inadequate than the other guy.

Good post!
A few years ago two guys were working in a gunshop in north Murderapolis. I was a charter member of Gun Owners Civil Rights Alliance. So were they. They both carried openly if I remember correctly. Some gentlemen from Chicago came in and killed both of them and stole 100 handguns which ended up in Chicago in the black market. My point is that these guys were armed and considered themselves avid handgunners. I would say situational awareness
plays as big a part as fast draw techniques or caliber of weapon.

Sorry, but I have to ask, why didn't you go over and intervene?

I do too........extremely interesting & enlightening reading.




You are absolutely correct.........& that's what generated the study to develop & change the ammo used by the FBI

Caliber & power is important in a carry gun as is the ammo, if you have to ever use it & expect positive results.

Little, light bullets don't easily penetrate leather or other heavy clothing & reach the vitals.

MM

Depends on the restaurant.

Really????????

Would you be willing to take a couple of my 230 gr hydrashoks mid-chest at 30 feet or so?

While I agree that I'd rather have a shotgun & have seen the results of that on heads & legs, too, the average bad guy can't take many major round hits to center body mass either.

MM

Truth in that.

Small gun's better than no gun especially if you can shoot it well; unfortunately most can't, including most LEO's.

Lived with 2, hung out with a bunch, shot with a bunch more, & I'd say you're in the minority.

Federal & military types in protection or security, I've found to be quite another story.

MM

I have a story about a florida cop that was a great pistol shot. One night he entered a trailer and in the hallway stood a turd with a gun. The cop fired two 45 caliber 230 grain hydrashoks into the turds chest. Right between the nipples. In fact both bullets entered the same hole and one exited to the left of the spine and one exited to the right of spine. The cop lowered his pistol to the ready position to check the situation (trained to do so). The turd fired back breaking the cops leg causing the cop to fall down in the hallway. The turd then walked up to cop and planted one in the side of his head. The turd ran out of the trailer and died in the yard.

Still wanna bet on those two shots?

Dink

Shoot until the threat is neutralized is the best advice, IMHO.

Not to belabor the point, but yes.

Always an exception to the norm if you look long enough.

You want to be the guinea pig for me to test on?

Thought not.........

MM

MontanaMan my point is if you think two rounds of 45 will always work that kind of thinking will get you killed.

Most bad guys just don't give it up that easy. They know alot of turds that have been shot and lived and are not worried about being shot. In there own minds they are bullet proof.

I have info on gunfights were the 22 and 380 worked to perfection and ones where the mighty 45 and 357 "failed" to stop the threat.

If you think any pistol round is a good man stopper you would be wrong. The only reason for carrying a pistol is because its the only gun you will have with you when you need it not because its the best tool for the job.

Dink

A proper defensive caliber handgun is a good stopper. People have survived multiply hits from rifles and shotguns to continue shooting and/or killing before falling over dead. It is the same in the hunting fields, heart and lung shot Deer can continue to function for a period of time.
The only way to guaranty instant shut down is with a CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM HIT. There is no other way!!!

This is why 'caliber' is not nearly as important as things like: shootability, reliability, ergonomics, function, accuracy, etc...



Would you be willing to take a couple of 14 grain pellets from my .20 Seridan at 30 feet? I bet not... so does that qualify it as an acceptable defense round? NO.

My point is simply that shot placement trumps all... if you're betting your life on the difference between 115 grain pills... and 230 grain pills (or any handgun round)... then you're rolling the dice my friend... in a big way.

Oh contraire my friend. The larger diameter projectiles do offer an advantage, although the advantage is not as great as some believe, but if it is only 1% I want it on my side. Hitting where one aims is must with any caliber and should be a given in these discusins...

Not at the expense of less reliability/shootability... multiple smaller rounds is always better than one single slightly larger round... given equal shot placement of course.

Why would it be at the expense of reliability/shootability?? Why can't one place multiply 45 ACPs on target? 9mm doesn't have the market cornerd on multiply shots

Just what I was thinking! I would rather have multiple shots with a .45 than multiple shots with a 9mm.
From what I have seen if people can't hit with a .45 they wouldn't do much better with a 9mm.
whelennut

yep it goes right down the list for me as well,

I'd prefer multiple hits with a shotgun if trying to stop someone trying to do me or mine harm.


next would be my .30-.30

would rather have a .45 than a .40 but willing to compromise on occassion

I'll drop all the way down to .380 and .38 as it's better than nothing

but truth be known, in a self defense situation, you use any tool available to try and give you an edge, be it a book, a vase a letter opener, a flashlight or a knife.

though I'd prefer a shotgun, I'm willing to settle for a handgun that begins with a .4 in caliber

though I have no personal experience I have been told if you take your riot gun into McDonalds often times you can go right to the front of the line.

Go watch a little IDPA... and you'll see the difference on multiples and shootability between the 9 and the .45. There's a reason that they created the CDP division... it's because the guys running .45s (mostly 1911s) were getting their collective asses kicked in the ESP division. Ain't much better assessment of shooting in a defensive type situation than IDPA. I've shot expert times with all three auto pistol divisions (SSP, ESP, and CDP) the .45 is WAY tougher to run controlled pairs and it's tougher to shoot accurately.... that ain't just me. Some folks can shoot a .45... but it's the exception rather than the rule.

Totally depends on the proficiency of the individual; reliability of the weapon has little to do with caliber.

All things being equal, a milder recoiling round will be easier for most people to make multiple hits with but multiple hits with inferior calibers or bullets still does not guarantee any better stopping or incident ending assurance than one or 2 hits from a larger caliber.

And then of course, there's always the subject of bullet selection...................you really should read the FBI report on the Miami shooting, might open your eyes a bit.

The argument is circular & you can always find data/info/opinions to support any position you want to take.

Been shooting competition (& 45's) all my life & I'm as comfortable shooting that gun style & caliber (& reliability too, by the way) as anything else so that's what I'll stay with for the most part.

Doesn't mean that's an exclusive though; a small Glock in 40 & a 38 J-Frame also see a lot of carry time.

Fact is, it's sometimes hard to carry a larger gun as easily as a smaller one, & in my mind, a mostly inferior caliber.

Do as you please as everyone can only deal with what they know & how they feel, though some of it be clearly misguided.

For me, for the most part, if I can't be carrying my shotgun or AR-15, I prefer the 1911.

MM

I would have agreed with about the cns hit until a couple years ago.

A little back ground about the incident I am about to tell you about. A guy I work with is a SWAT cop and has his chit together. Runs 8 miles aday, works out everyday and one of the best tactics guys I have ever known. He is not a very big guy but is one of the toughest guys I have ever known. Has a great mind set and together we have been alot of situations that would not have turned out so good had it not been for his ability to deal with people that did not want to be dealt with.

A couple years ago he was on a suicidal guy call. He was standing beside his patrol car (behind the passenger side door) slightly bent forward talking on his PA system trying to get the guy to come out of his house. There was a window that was partially open but he could not see inside the window. As he was talking on the PA the turd shot him with 123 grain FMJ from 7.62x39. The bullet entered his left upper chest (near the shoulder/collar bone) and traveled at a angle down his back on the left side. The bullet exited on the left side of his back near the top of his kidney area. The bullet never hit the spine or was blew any pieces into the spine. The bullet did go through the front vest panel but stopped in the back vest panel.

He told me when he hit the ground that was all he remembered for quite some time. His patrol car was shot another 18 times I think but he did not hear it. He said he wanted to do alot of things but could not. He could not run or crawl form where he was. Another cop had to pull him behind the patrol car so he did not catch another round.

No CNS hit but it was a stop.

I agree with trying for a cns hit but they are difficult to make. I can't tell how many times (several) that I have tried to shoot a crippled deer in the head that has been hit by a car and shoot them low,high or to the side of there brain. If they have enough life in them to crawl its hard as hell sometimes to shoot one right in noggin.

Dink

I have read it... multiple times. More a report on schitty shooting than anything else though.

All I'm saying is: if it ain't CNS... all bets are off. If you can't run the gun with proficiency... then caliber don't matter much. If you can run the gun... and put multiple rounds where they need to be (quickly)... then caliber don't matter much either.

I'd also encourage anyone who carries a pistol to find an IDPA match and go shoot it... you'll learn more about your personal ability to run your weapon, under defensive conditions, in those couple of hours (and only 100 rounds) than you can anywhere else in years. Unless of course you want to pay the dough and fly out to Front Sight (or some other similar facility).

Can't argue much with that..........



Can't really buy that; too many potential variables.......clothing type, weight, size of the bad guy, etc.

I'll stick with bigger (more powerful), within reason, as generally being my preference.

Too many sub-calibers just don't cut it in too many potential scenarios.

YMMV

MM

If you read it and think that [bleep] shooting was the problem then I am suspect of any conclusions that you may make.

Dink, I never said that it was impossible to stop someone with a body shot. I said that the CNS shot was the only one that guarented an instant stop.

And then only if you manage to get to the CNS parts in order to take them out. Hitting the spinal cord from the front side is pretty tough, and handgun cartridges have a hard time reliably penetrating the skull.

I'm pretty sure that my choice will make the journey thorugh the skull

I mis-read that somehow.

Dink

.45 ACP? Yeah, it typically does, but I had a patient one time that had been shot just above the right eyebrow with an exit wound behind the right ear...shot with a .45 ACP. Guy was conscious, alert, complaining of pain to the face and a good headache. The bullet (unknown what the load was) deflected off the skull, and traveled sub-cutaneously until it exited behind the ear...damndest thing I ever saw.

There's never any guarantees...but I'll bet if you shot 1,000 skulls with a .45 ACP, you'd get 1,000 penetrations. I'd say my patient was a one in a million. One lucky SOB; guess his number just wasn't up.

You are spot on about no guarantees. I know a guy that survived being shot at point blank range with a 16 gauge shot gun. He was duck hunting and got shot in the sternum with a full power duck load. I met him play in a men's softball league after he had recovered. He played rather well

+1, at least into the target side of it..........

MM

That's a real fact, but it usually pays to play the odds...........

Minor calibers & loads have much lower odds.

MM

You can make your own decisions, but mine was fairly easy. With my only son (4yo) standing behind me at the counter, I really didn't see the need to leave him alone. Taking him with me would, in my mind, have only been more foolish.

I carry a 3" 5-Shot 696 and a couple speedloaders most days. That right there gives me less firepower than most STANDARD (no such thing as High capacity) Semi-Autos with just their in gun payload. That's ok with me. I feel confident where I live with my choice.

I just bought my girlfriend a Ruger LCP 380 for Christmas. Given her job she absolutely cannot be caught carrying on a daily basis yet she needs to carry. I will give her credit she wanted a G23 till she thought about putting it in her purse. She shoots them all well.

I believe the first rule of a gunfight is have a gun. No. 2 would be get good with it and she is on her way.

Sean

I'll be honest. My state requires me to be a "reluctant participant". I wonder what the judge would think if I was carrying a 1911 with three 10 rd magazines?
I carry a 642 with +P loads. If I can't stop a threat with five rounds of ammo I will start running! (If possible.)
whelennut

What does 3 spare magazines have to do with being or not being a reluctant participant?

It might give someone the impression that you were looking forward to a gunfight, instead of trying to avoid one.

+1

When I started shootind IDPA, I had been shooting all kinds of pistols for 25+ years, looked like an idiot trying to change magazines under pressure. Gun malfunctions are another entire issue, ammo malfunctions are another issue yet.

Most folks that have owned hand guns for many years are not prepared for a gun fight.

If you are serious about your self defense, you need to join IDPA and shoot regularly, and Glock has sponsored shoots that are fun and you can win guns.

Then they couldn't follow a trail of logic marked with fluorescent surveyors tape. Then why even carry, since they may think that you are looking for a fight

Since when has being prepared meant, looking for trouble???

It depends on who you get for a judge sometimes.