Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Let's be honest...

How important are caliber and capacity, really, in a self defense situation?

I read so much about guys who would rather die than carry anything less than a .45. Many folks who carry insist on spare mags on their belt or in their pocket.

I'd go out on a limb here and say that most of us will never have to use our carry piece, thankfully. If we do, in most of the cases, simply the sight of a gun will send the BG's scurrying for cover. Take it to the next step, when someone hears a shot, they get out of town. Nobody asks what caliber it is or how many shots you have left.

It's hard to think of a situation where I'd need more shots than what I carry in my mag. If you're changing mags mid fight, you're in trouble. I don't know that I've ever heard of it happening.

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but have you fellas ever heard of a self defense (not law enforcement) situation where a citizen who ran out of bullets got into trouble and wished he had more? Or, how about a situation where a few hits with a smaller caliber didn't do the job, the BG kept coming, and the citizen wished he would have been packing something with more punch?

I'd love to hear examples of either if you have them.

I feel pretty much the same way. I'm a member at a couple other handgun/self defense boards and I'm often amazed at how much fire power some guys carry.

Some guys have a semi auto and two back up revolvers. Other guys carry a single semi auto,but then carry three or four hi-cap magazines.

Is there really a need to carry three handguns or 60 rounds of ammo?

If I live in an area that I need that much firepower to feel safe on the street,I'm finding a different place to live ASAP.

I think most guys go with a " better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" I carry anywhere between 18 and 27 rounds when I carry.

Although, when I would hunt in the deserts south of Phoenix I carried at least 3 pistol mags and 2 spare AR mags at all times.

But to answer your question......caliber or capcity is not as important as carrying to begin with. Next I would take caliber ....then capacity.

When I was a cop, I saw lots of shootings, both by cops and civilians.
They had a tendency to have a few things in common.
Most of them shot their guns dry if they had to fire them. So an extra magazine/ammo would be needed.
To prevail, seldom did those who missed what they shot at did so. Happens but not often. So, whatever you use, the ability to shoot well is, far and away, the most important.
Full size guns usually were more effective than the very small ones. Note I didn't say they had to be a .45 or a .44 Magnum. E

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Lesson: Only the power of lawful force can answer the power of lawless criminal force.

A few years ago, the TV program Turning Point focused on private citizens who had used guns in self-defense. In refreshing contrast to much of the mainstream electronic media, the show for the most part gave a fair and balanced portrayal of ordinary people who had been forced to resort to defensive firearms in extraordinary circumstances. I wrote about it in this space at the time. Among the Turning Point shootings we discussed were the series of armed robberies and attempted murders defeated by Lance Thomas, the owner of a watch shop in Los Angeles.
In 2001, Paladin Press published one of the best "reads" of the year for people who follow the gun culture and understand the principles of self-protection. The author is Paul Kirchner, who has collaborated with Col. Jeff Cooper on previous books, and the title is The Deadliest Men: The World's Deadliest Combatants Through the Ages. It covers figures as disparate as the French swordswoman known as La Maupin, such great American war heroes as Alvin York and Audie Murphy; gunfighters like Wild Bill Hickok and Bat Masterson, and a man named Lance Thomas.

Over a period of less than 3 years, Thomas was involved in four gun battles against a total of 11 known suspects. He shot six of them, killing five. The watch dealer himself was wounded on two of these occasions, taking a total of five rounds. There are many lessons that the rest of us can learn: Lessons of long-term strategy and short-term tactics; of gun selection and ammunition effectiveness; and, above all, of courage under fire in the moment, and of determination over the long haul.

The rest of the article is here: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_156_26/ai_82533205/

More of the same article:

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November 27, 1989. This time, it's the kind of professional hit that the NYPD Stakeout Squad warned you about-- a five-man team of thugs who know what they're doing. There's seeded backup, a perpetrator ambling around on the sidewalk outside, pretending to be a passerby. The outrider is in the driver's seat of the getaway car, at once a wheelman and a potential killer who can murderously interdict responding officers, or go inside with heavy weapons to rescue accomplices who are captured inside the premises. The remaining three perpetrators comprise the raid team.

It opens hot, fast and ugly. One of the perpetrators opens up on Lance Thomas without warning, firing a semiautomatic pistol, hitting him four times with eight rounds fired. Three of the .25 ACP bullets bite into Thomas' right shoulder, a fourth into his neck. The watchmaker grabs the nearest revolver, the Ruger .357, missing with the first shot but scoring with the next five.

The gunman falls to the floor and so does the Security-Six: it has clicked empty. Thomas drops it, lunging for the next nearest weapon, the snubnose .38 that had saved him last time.

Now he engages the second suspect, who is shooting at him. Thomas shoots back. That gun, too, runs dry. He hasn't hit his antagonist, but he hasn't been hit either, and the second robber is in no mood to continue the gunfight.

The third inside suspect opens fire at Thomas. Wounded, but furious and still in the fight, the storekeeper grabs his third gun of the shootout, another .357. As Paul Kirchner relates it, he "empties it into" the third gunman. That offender goes down.

Still more

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Inside, only one of the combatants is standing. Bleeding but defiant, the wounded Lance Thomas looks down at the two men he has killed. In the course of the fight, he has fired 19 shots.

More

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Two Year Break

December 4, 1991. It has been more than two years since the last incident. Some others would be complacent by now. Not Lance Thomas, who has learned that vigilance equals survival, and from the beginning has realized he is responsible for the safety of his customers.

On this date a male perpetrator strides in, accompanied by a female accomplice who shows no weapon. The man pulls a loaded Glock pistol. He points the gun at Thomas and orders him to be motionless.

No way. Thomas goes for his gun.

The perpetrator fires first, pumping a 9mm bullet through Thomas' neck, drilling a wound channel that is just a fraction of an inch from being fatal. But now, Thomas has reached his nearest pistol, the little P225, and he is firing back.

The watch shop proprietor has been forced into an awkward hold on the gun, and he can only fire three rounds--all straight into the chest of his opponent-- before his imperfect grasp causes the usually reliable SIG 9mm to jam. Without missing a beat, he drops it and grabs one of its big brothers, which he fires into the opponent five more times until the armed robber falls and stops trying to commit murder.

Frozen in terror, the female accomplice offers no violence. It's over.

Wounded, Lance Thomas will recover. Not so the criminal who shot him, who will die of the eight rounds-- all hits, eight for eight-- that the armed citizen has inflicted with his two SIG-Sauer pistols.


Ever Vigilant

February 20, 1992. It has been just over two and a half months since the last shootout. Lance Thomas has remained vigilant. Now, his wariness pays off.

Two armed perpetrators enter the store. As soon as Thomas sees the automatic pistol in one of their hands, he reflexes to his nearest pistol, one of the P-220s. This perpetrator goes down fast, hit with what author Kirchner describes as most of a "gunload" of .45 ACP ammunition.

Grabbing another P-220, Thomas engages the second armed robbery suspect and shoots him four times. The suspect falls. The danger is over.

Both armed robbers are dead at the shopowner's hands. In four gun battles, Lance Thomas has fired 40-plus shots. He has killed five men, and wounded another. He has defeated a total of 11 perpetrators, either shot down or driven off in abject flight. He has been wounded five times

Simply put from just this one persons experience it appears that it pays to be properly prepared, instead of half azz'ed prepared

His excellent choice in firearms should also be noted

My mantra has always been "Proper Prior Planning Prevents Pizz Poor Performance".

I don't carry three extra mags, but I carry enough to get me back to (hopefully) my vehicle. If I can't get it done off-duty with what I have on me, I need to re-think what I'm doing.

If, God forbid, the situation becomes something that has to be engaged then I have better tools in my vehicle.

George

NK K9, what dept. do you work for in NH?

Barrington. Sandwiched between Dover and Rochester.

George

I think the"get back to my vechicle is flawed theory

If you're already carrying a gun, adding a mag or two is the easy part. I don't see a good reason not to do so.

I've had to pull guns twice.
Both times the presence ended the altercation.
But the racking of a 12 ga pump usually does that.
The young black man sat down on his hands ( as ordered ) after he turned white!

I help the gun on him while dialing the cops and then held him there as they entered the gas station and took control.

The other time my Browning Highpower came out at point blank and it's cold steel on the combatant's neck and he retreated, before I had to fire.

I agree, with those who say. First have a gun and a plan
Practice the plan.
Practice with the gun.

The guy who had all those shoot outs needs to find a different location or line of work.

You shot at a retreating person?

Fair enough, though I disagree. What I carry on me is enough to defend myself and my family in the majority of situations that one might run into.

If I'm going back to my vehicle I have entered a situation where I am, most likely, not in defense mode anymore. Probably poor articulation on my part originally.

George