As I have aged, I have gradually gotten away from heavy recoiling rifles. I seem to be shooting better than ever with simple rigs like the 6.5-06 and 30-06 rifles. As I am kicking around single action revolvers and specifically Freedom Arms models, I wanted some input on the larger versions.

So what is the recoil sensation for rigs like 454 Casull, 475 Linebaugh, and 500 AE? I don't plan on hunting the Big Five with them and am thinking it makes more sense for me to explore the 41 magnum, 44 Special, 45 Colt or 44 Rem Mag. I have no large bore handgun shooting experience.

My ideal set ia a FA 97 in 22 LR, and then one larger bore. I'd perhaps hunt whitetails, muleys, antelope or elk with the large bore and would pack and shoot the 22 a lot. Going to take a few years to get both but planning on getting the first one this year. Thoughts from handgunners out there appreciated. Thank you

If it were me, I'd go with an FA83 in 44 magnum. I've not shot an 83 but have had a 97 or three, and more than a few blackhawks. I currently own blackhawks in 357, 44 mag, and 45 colt versions, and have owned a couple of 41's. The 44 is, IMO, by far the most versatile with respect to ammo varieties and cost. I've had a pair of 45 colts and they are fun to shoot, but everyone seems to load the ammo up to get the oomph they think they need. I've shot my buddies super redhawk 454 and it was more then I cared to shoot much. I have a SRH in 44 mag and like to shoot it.

I've owned a superlite titanium S&W in 357, and I literally put 5 rounds thru it and sold it - the recoil was too severe for me. As I age, I've decided that for me, guns should be fun to shoot, as by far the most targets I shoot handguns at are rocks, cans, ground squirrels and coyotes. So the 44 mag recoil in an FA83 would be right up my alley.

Long winded and maybe not much help....

Tom

I've been fortunate to shoot many big bore single actions from both FA and custom ruger bisleys in 454, 475 and 500 Linebaugh. No matter what your experience with rifles, handguns are an entirely different matter. My shooting buddy can handle handgun recoil levels that leave me flinching all over the place, whereas I'll shoot rifles w/o flinching he refuses to shoot.

My advice would be to a get a mdl 83 in 45 colt, and handload to whatever level you want. I'll also add that IMHO, the majority of handgun shooters cannot accurately shoot a 475 or 500, well unless you build the gun very heavy and add a muzzlebreak. Extended shooting with the 475 and 500 has caused permanent injury to shooters wrists, and more than once the unaware has had the front sight planted into their foreheads.

My limit is the 480 ruger, 400 gr @ 1200 fps will take anything I'll hunt with a handgun, and it's shootable (I have about 4000 rounds through my srh)

I got to shoot a guys Freedom Arms 454 Casull at the range one day, I was sad when the ammo ran out, it was a "blast", kinda like bein' at the head of the stack when the door charge blows (I read about that on my mac). I'd like to own one, made like a swiss watch.

Another friend bought a S&W 460, I fired three rounds through it and handed it back to him.

Appreciate the insights. For the 44 or 45, seems like it would be a good fit in the 83. Several members are running 44 Specials in 97s. Hoping to get to handle both before deciding.

There�s no doubt about it, when you set one of those off, you know something significant in this world has happened. It�s up to the individual, but the recoil can vary from annoyance to downright painful depending on the gun you use and how used to heavy recoiling guns you are. While I think the Freedom Arms revolver is a beautiful revolver, I�ve never liked the shape of its grip. In an effort to keep you from whacking your knuckle on the back of the trigger guard, they move the grip frame back a little too far for my tastes. So while the DA revolvers just don�t seem nearly as nice as the Freedom Arms, I�ve always found the Taurus and Ruger easier to shoot, and the Taurus is just as accurate as the Freedom Arms (at least the one�s I�ve shot).

Of the big boys, I really like the .480 Ruger or the .475 Linebaugh because they give you all the power you�ll ever need, and a really big bullet. With lighter loaded .480 Rugers either in a .480 or .475 it can be a deer harvesting machine, yet with heavier loads and proper bullets you can stare down the ugly side of a griz (just ask JWP475).

I've shot .44 mags for years, and still have a couple of 629's.

Now for the .480, I break out a PAST glove, at least for target shooting. Never did have a chance to pop a bear with it, but I'm sure it will take a deer here one of these days.

The Freedom Arms are like holding a three pound Swiss watch, beautiful things, but a full power .500 Wyoming Express? I wimp out, I must admit.

Back in 2000 I purchased a FA 83 in .454. It had a 6" barrel, black Micarta grips and extra .45 Colt cylinder. The gun had two previous owners...the original owner managed 5 rounds of .454 and sold the gun... The guy who I bought the gun from said he made 25 rounds of .454 and 250 rounds of .45 Colt before deciding he "didn't need that much power"....what he really meant was recoil.

I bought the gun because I had been invited to South Africa by a friend who lived there who said that he had several friends with ranches he could arrange hunts on. Although I ended up in SA the gun did not because of a small scheduling glitch.

The gun was truly the finest most accurate shooting handgun I have ever owned...and I have owned a bunch. Just aim, squeeze and hit... For loads I didn't go overboard...240-265 grain JHP at 1600-1700 fps..these are "mild" considering what a .454 will do. Recoil however while not "wild" is also not "mild". Never even loaded a .45 Colt round as if I want to shoot a Colt I'll go buy a Colt...

After several years of shooting I began to notice a creeping "discomfort" after each shooting session...hand, wrist, elbow... Even just letting the gun ride up rather than fighting the recoil was starting to get painful. After a series of discussions with John Tiffin and what BigBore shooting had done not "for" him but "to" him I decided the .454 was going to go. It was about that time I lucked into a once fired M83 in .41 Magnum that was identical to the .454 I had with the exception that the barrel was Mag-Na-Ported...and so off went the .454 and hello my favorite caliber....

A friend has the identical gun in .475. This guy is one of the best shots with a rifle or pistol I have ever met and one of his favorite rifles is a .450 NE...the .475 however is described as "a little too much of a good thing".... He keeps his loads in the 1000-1200 fps range and it flattens everything he has hit.

I've really had the itch for a M83 but just in .480 Ruger...but I keep asking myself "why" when the .41 Magnum does everything I will ever need a big bore handgun to do...at a LOT less expense per shot.

I think you are spot-on in wanting to get a FA "set"...these are my two .41s, one for carry and one for serious long range shooting and hunting...one day I'll find the .22 to finish "the set"...








Have a great time picking your barrel length and caliber...it is always fun....

Bob

I confess since Ruger now has some #1's in .475, it that much more tempting to get a .475 M83, as companion pieces.

At one time I reckoned a 370 grain full house .475 load in a 22" barrel would probably make 1900 fps. I don't know anyone who would call that a "mild" rifle load, yet people shoot them in pistols.

And yes John Taffin comes to mind as someone who has had a lot of hand problems, from shooting many hard kicking pistols.

I owned a FA .454 and as configured it was more recoil than I wanted. They are very fine guns, and if mine had a regular grip instead of the overly large rubber one I might still be shooting it. The rubber grip was just too big to give a comfortable hold for my hands. I traded the Model 83 off for a Model 97 .44 Special, and this one is the revolver for me!

Golfswithwolves, what length barrel on the 44 special?

Another comment from a previous FA owner....the 454 was too much of a good thing for me. Too much recoil at way to fast of a rate. I had a 6" Premier grade in 454. It was sooo accurate. And contrary to Kevin, I loved the grip frame on the Freedom, and I have/had the Super Blackhawk, Bisley, and standard Blackhawk.

If you have the cash to afford one, whatever configuration you choose, I don't think you will be dissappointed. They are just that nice. I am a big fan of the 45LC in a modern revolver. I think you can do many things with it, and it will have plenty of power to spare should you run 335 Hard Cast. But it's your handgun.

Speeding is a rule. Gravity is a law. You can't break a law of physics.
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1. What is your build. Bigger guys take more energy to get them moving.
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2. Larger caliber means for the same energy, lower pressure and not as sharp recoil.
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3. Get the grip worked on to fit your hand. Flatten the back of the grip frame and stocks to give a wider impact area. Change the radius of the stocks to get a proper grip with your fingers.
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4. Barrel length ythat works for YOU.
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Physics. Laws not rules.
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Shoot before buying, even if you have to wait if at all possible.
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Shot them all a few years back. No X frame crew served weapons then, but the 500 Maximun was, at 60 % of the weight.
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YMMV
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All that crap being said.......... I am building a. DA for just the same thing.
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480 Ruger Redhawk. Diameter, and weight in the bullet. Moderate velocity for control and 6 shots....where's the down side????

...I keep looking at the same combo.....

Bob

I have a number of revolvers in big calibers -- .44 mag, .454 Casull, .475 Linebaugh, .500 Linebaugh, .500 JRH, .50 Alaskan, and hey definitely take some practice to master. I will point out the obvious, but there is no shoulder stock to help you manage recoil with your body, so it really isn't an easy task and requires lots of practice. If you are recoil sensitive, I would suggest a .44 mag or a .45 Colt. Loaded hot, even these are threshold cartridges for many. As was suggested above, try and shoot the calibers in question prior to laying down your hard earned money. There are pleanty of lightly used big-bore revolvers on the market with a half a box of ammo for a reason.

As far as grip frames are concerned, I feel the Bisley-type (like that used on the FA) is the best for heavy kickers -- it's my personal preference. I have a DA revolver in .475, in .454 Casull, and one in .500 LInebaugh and they are downright abusive on the shooter as the recoil comes straight back.

moosemuncher,

I read some of the posts but did not see where anyone mentioned my experience. If you fire Freedom Arms .454 260 grainers with wood grips about 1,700 feet per second it feels like when I was playing ball and the bat would break. After replacing them with Pachmyrs it was fine. My favorite load is 240 grainers at 2,014 feet per second. This gives 2" groups at 100 yards for a cylendar full.

I have heard the recoil is about like holding two .44 magnums in one hand and firing them.

Thinking that recoil at that level may cease being fun. Good information and I apprecicate everyones input. The 454 running 2" groups is quite impressive at 100 yards.

Is the grip on the big Freedom Arms revoler close to that of the Ruger Bisley? Ross Seyfried favored the Bisley grip.

Yes it is.

..but it is totally different in terms of geometry. The grip on the FA is much more like an overgrown Colt. The Ruger Bisley is half way between an original Bisley and an original Colt. For me and most people I have talked to, the FA "rolls" in the hand like a Colt or standard Ruger will. The Bisley comes straight back into the palm of the hand with much less rotation. For me it transmits a lot more shock into the hand than the FA does.

I've had Bisley's in .44 and .41 Magnum. With full loads I would rather shoot a Super Blackhawk....

Bob

I could not dissagree with this more. The FA doe not roll in the hand like a Ruger Blackhawk, if it did one would need to remove the hammer from their wrist after each shot. Just shoot some 320 grainers in a 44 Mag RBH at 1300+ FPS to see what I mean



I can't believe that anyone with full power loads and stock grips would prefer a RBH over a Bisley or FA. Shoot some 320 grain cast at 1300+ FPS with the SBH gripe frame and stock grips and the hammer will bury in your wrist every shot. Now that is rolling in the hand a FA of R Bisley will not do that

I have never found that FAs roll in the hand. That's a particularly bad idea with the hard kicking calibers. FA incorporated a Bisley-like grip frame to better control recoil.

Well...all I can tell you is the 6" .454 FA that I had did rolled up much like a SBH...as much, no but it rolls a lot more than the Bisley did. The Bisley for me comes back right into the palm...

The Ruger Hunter comes two ways...Bisley grip and SBH grip....I passed on the Bisley...so I am one of those who would rather shoot full power loads with a SBK style grip...

Bob

I'd love to see you shoot a few 320 grain loads at 1300+ FPS in 44 mag, out of a SBH with stock grips. I'll bring the band-aids

I own and have shot them all and the SBH is a poor grip for HEAVY recoil. 240 grainers ain't HEAVY recoil

The FA and the Ruger Bisley grip are close in the way they handle recoil and design

Well..the Blackhawk is lighter and the grip smaller than a SBH and with a .41 Magnum 300 grain LBT or SSK with 19 grains of H110 it runs 1300 fps from a 5" barrel...1400 from a 7.5"....and seems to be just fine...no band-aids needed...

And I really love the way the Bisley grip feels and looks...I've had one .44 and four .41s...and they all went down the road. But all the standard gripped guns are still here.

..you know what they say...ymmv...and ours apparently do....Bob

Try shooting something with a big kick like a .475 or .500 Linebaugh with a plow handle. You will probably change your mind. There is a reason most big-bore customs receive a Bisley grip frame. They're not perfect, but they are more controllable when recoil gets up there. I have a custom D-Max framed revolver in .50 Alaskan, that would be unshootable with a plow handle as it would burry the front sight in your forehead. You don't want any roll when they kick hard.

Mr. Moosemuncher- My .44 Special has the short barrel that is just the same length as the ejector housing (4+ inches). It is easy to shoot accurately and balances nicely.

I have shot a 4 5/8" sbh 500 linebaugh with stag grips and a thick glove. As I recall they were 440 gr max loads. It was a memorable experience.

I find the bh/sbh grip is fine up to max 200 gr loads in a .357, but it is not the proper grip for a heavy kicker.

I know that bisley is touted as the best sa gripframe, but in my hnads the most comfortable sa I've ever shot was an FA 83 5 1/2" 454 that had been rounbutted.

A few years ago, I shot a plow handle Linebaugh .475 Ruger conversion that another member brought to the range. It was loaded with 400gr JSPs that according to the latest Speer Manual should have clocked between 1,250 and 1,300 fps. I had a good grip on the gun and I don�t remember it rolling in my hand (at least it didn�t� slam into the web of my hand which I would have remembered). It was however painful, hammering both my middle knuckle and the bottom of my trigger finger.

In comparison, My FA83 (6�) shooting 420gr WFNGCs at a chronoed 1,300 fps doesn�t touch my middle knuckle or the bottom of my trigger finger, however it does impact my palm with some authority (not painful, but noticeable). Shooting the .475 with loads at this power level requires a great deal of concentration and fatigue sets in fairly quickly with the grip required to keep from goose egging your noggin. (at least for this 60 yr old). Comfort wise (not fatigue wise), I would rather shoot the FA 475 with the 420gr/1,300fps than a Ruger Super Blackhawk with 250gr/1,400fps � the square back trigger guard on the SBH hammers my middle knuckle unmercifully.

The M97 is quite a bit smaller and weighs about a pound less than the M83 in similar calibers (the 6� M83 .44 Mag weighs 52 oz and the 5 �� M97 .44 Special weighs 38 oz.). The M97 grip frame is a downsized version of the M83 and from my perspective handles recoil extremely well. I can�t think of a better packin� pistol than a 4 �� or 5 �� M97 in .41 Mag, .44 Special or .45 Colt � compact, light weight, finely crafted, fun to shoot and can be loaded to handle anything commonly hunted in the Lower 48. To some the short cylinder is a drawback (max OAL is 1.600�) � I�ve not found this to be a problem, and have loaded bullets up to 335gr in the .45 Colt. Bullet weight might be limited in the .41 Mag (not having one, I don�t know) but in .44 Special (300gr) and .45 Colt (335gr) this is not the case.

Here�s a picture (not real good) of the Linebaugh .475 with the standard grip (notice that this gun also has a flat top frame) � interesting variation of the Linebaugh conversions.




Here's one of my favorite packin' pistols -- FA M97 4 1/4" .45 Colt. If I could have only one gun, this would probably be it.



Paul

I've heard now several times that the round butts offer better ability to handle recoil. Is that the consensus or is it determined by hand size, strength etc?

...well, having not been there and done that with anything over a .454 with 300 grain full factory loads in a FAs 83 and a Super Redhawk I will have to defer to your experience.

As to "getting wrapped on the knuckles" by the squarebacked SBH gripframe, I kept wondering what people were talking about...now I realize that because of the length of my fingers the knuckle of my right hand never takes a bad rap like that because the knuckle is slightly beyond the rear of the triggerguard...

Roundbutt Frames...The one on my 97 is a round butt and the one on the 83 a square. I was at the SHOT Show in January and handled an 83 with a 6" barrel and round butt...it felt real nice. Mr. Baker was standing there and he said that he also liked them but didn't think it handled recoil as well with the real heavy kickers... I am thinking about sending mine in for the modification.

Bob

I have two .454s, one is a Ruger SRH 7.5" barrel and the other is the snubbie Alaskan..

The SRH is stout but manageable and not uncomfortable..

The Alaskan, when you touch it off, hurts - pure and simple.. That one is a true handful and not for the meek, or recoil sensitive shooter.. A set of PAST gloves is nearly mandatory for that beast..

Following are my personal observations � yours may be (most likely are) different

Actual/perceived recoil with different grip frames/platforms has a lot to do with hand size, hand position on the grip, grip tension, stance, etc. � it is very specific to the individual.

I have a 3 �� Round Butt FA97 .45 Colt. It is very well balanced, very comfortable in the hand and extremely easy to shoot well. Shooting 320gr SWCs at 1,130 fps, I don�t think it handles recoil quite as well as the 4 �� standard grip .45 Colt mentioned in my previous post. Velocity from both guns is about the same (1,130 vs. 1,138fps � chronoed one after the other on the same day). The 4 �� is slightly heavier (maybe 2 � oz.) due to the non fluted cylinder, extra �� of bbl and the octagon bbl � doubt this makes much difference in perceived recoil. Both will get your attention, but neither recoil as heavily as top end .475s or .454 loads in the standard gripped M83.

I don�t have, and haven�t handled, a round butt M83, so I can�t comment.

With all that said, I don�t shoot a lot of heavy recoiling stuff anymore. I shoot the .475s mostly with 400s at 1,100 fps and the .45 Colts with 280s at 900 fps. These loads will handle the majority of all the shooting I�m likely to do and do it comfortably.

Here�s a couple of more pictures.

FA M97 3 1/2", round butt, .45 Colt.



The 3 1/2" round butt, compared to a 5 1/2" .44 Special (not a real good picture).



Paul

Thanks for the pics Paul. More good info and I appreciate it. Thank you, Kurt

Paul, very nice guns! I am thinking of sending my 5-1/2" 44 special in and having the barrel cut to 4-1/4", the grip roundbutted w/ micarta, and the cylinder fluted. Would look a lot like your .45. Also, what sites do you have on the .45?

Tom

Tom,

The .45 has Freedom Arms standard adjustable rear (square notch) and fiber optic front.



Paul

Went shooting today with a friend who has a Ruger Flat Top Bisley .44 Special. He had some loads with him taken for that Ross Syfried (sp?) areticle...18 grains of H110 with a 280 hardcast. I fired 12 rounds from the gun and it is just like I remember...most of the impact hits right in the palm of the hand just below the web.

I had the FA 97 .41 Magnum with a 220 grain bullet at 1250... It was far more pleasant to shoot although the recoil seemed about the same.

This is my friends first Bisley and he is now talking retiring it and getting a standard gripped one...it hits him in the same spot and is not near as comfortable to shoot as his heavily loaded Ruger BH 4 5/8" .45 Colt...

Bob

I have had a FA 454 for 20years now and it is a great gun. I run 350 grs at 1550 fps in the gun and your hands really need to be in shape to shoot it well.

No matter how conditioned you get there will always be a limit to the amount of beating you can take before starting to do damage.

One thing to think about is that the 454 will run 45 Colts and, in my opinion, you will have less blast and softer recoil from the 45 Colt than the 41 Mag when both are loaded to the same game killing potential.

The 45 Colt can get more done at less pressure and this will reduce blast and soften the recoil impulse. A 275gr or so bullet at 1000fps is a very deadly deer load and pleasant to shoot in the Freedom Gun.

Another advantage is the easier availability of decent commercial cast bullets and loads for the 45 Colt.

Nothing against 41 Mags, but they sure are loud when loaded to full power and the 41 will never equal the 45s if you ever want to run a few heavy loads for fun.

Getting the FA 22 would sure be nice no matter what you choose for the big bore.

I personally prefer the FA grip frame to the Ruger Bisley (close second in SAs) but the Super BH and BH don�t work very well for me. To each his own.

A set of well made custom grips for the Bisley that are wider in the area that the web of your hand sits and have a better blended radius does certainly help the Bisley, at least for me, and this is the area where the FA grip is better. A lot of the factory Ruger grips are also undersized and let the frame lead in the recoil.

Here's my model 97 4.25" .45 colt. It balances very well and I like its grips a lot better than the ones on by SBH. But, if I had to do it again I might get the round butt. When I shoot heavy loads, the edge of the grips do bite into my right hand.

Paul - I see you have both. Do you like the round butt better?

John...I see your point...I just have never cared for .45s...not in revolvers or 1911s.

In all the reading and field work I have done it seems that once one crosses the .40 caliber line there are no more complaints when it comes to general game shooting. I read the acounts of many posted here who use cast .41 bullets down the 1000 fps MV area that punch nice holes through really big animals who travel a short way and then just drop over. I'm sure when shooting the REAL BIG stuff it would be nice to have a .45+ caliber but the last elephant I saw was in a zoo so the .41 will easily handle anything on this side of the pond that I am likely to run into.

Bob

McInnis,

Love those ivory micartas on your .45.

Can�t say that I prefer the round butt over the standard grip frame � they are just different. I like them both.

I got the RB the 3 �� .45 Colt belly gun as part of a 3 gun deal. If it had been alone, I wouldn�t have bought it. It has become one of my favorites � it is surprisingly easy to shoot well, and a pleasure to carry.

As posted above, I have a 4 �� M97 in .45 Colt. I sent the grips to Scott Kolar and he �thinned� the factory micartas for me. I later had a local guy bevel those grips to remove the abrupt bottom edge (careful here on existing grips � enough material may be removed to expose a bit of the grip frame). These slightly modified grips feel great.

For some reason, the factory micartas have always felt thicker to me than the factory winewood grips (both M83s and M97s). I just measured 2 M83s and 2 M97s and the winewood grips on these samples are definitely thinner than the micartas. As I understand it, all grips are individually hand fitted and therefore will be slightly different so YMMV.

Paul

My 454C w/335's @1565 is a comfortable load for me to shoot, revolver fits me well, not the funnest to shoot by far, but not bad.
Have 2 loads for the 500 S&W w/ the 440 HC, standard load runs 1400 fps, accurate and hard hitting inside 50 yds,
The full power load of the 440 @1700 fps is just not called for in my case, wont shoot @ anything much past 50 in an iron sight hunting revolver.
And that 440 @1700 really boots.

Gunner

I guess a 440gr @ 1400fps is just barely adequate for a small whitetail at 50yds.

A wimpy load like that just might bounce off an elk at 62yds.

I remember a story Ross Seyfried told me one day while we were being beaten up by the 475 Linebaugh. (420s @ 1350)

Seems he let Brian Enos shoot his 475 one day while they were practicing IPSC. Brian took 2 shots, hit twice, smiled and handed the revolver back and said �That�s a good way to ruin 20 years of trigger control�.

It's been a long time since, but one day I overdid it with some 335 gr. stuff out of a 45 Colt Anaconda. My control was gone, I mean a bad switch was thrown.

I had to go all the way back to live round or dummy drills with a 22 revolver. Then it was 38 wadcutters and Bullseye and on up in steps. I no longer shoot anything real heavy duty either.

Funny stuff JB, the 440 @1400 I think is the sweet spot for this pistol on accuracy, I dont practice much past 50 w/a pistola, just a backup for critters if one gets close while rifle huntin, or for 2 legged varmints while BP huntin.

Gunner

I like to shoot my FA83 454 but I only use the hot stuff for serious business 99% of my shooting with this gun is with a cast 250 grain bulett and 10 grains of unique in a starline case.

Big Bore revolvers work fine at subdued speeds. The exit in the rib cage of this 6X7 Bull Elk was made with the 500 JRH and a 440 grain wide flat point hard cast at 950 FPS

I am holding a 300 win mag for size comparison

Now that is what I call a great exist would!!!

It is hard to beat those hardcast bullets out of a pistol using bullets with widemetplate.

...guess I'll have to get some 440 grain FPs for my 4" S&W 500....have been shooting 350s at about 1200...great bowling pin medicine...

Any suggestions for a bulky powder that will fill most of the case, clean burning and velocity in the 1000-1100 fps range...

Bob

Lots of good points and advice here already. I have a 5-1/2" magnaported 475 Linebaugh (FA Model 83) and a 5-1/2" non-ported 45 Colt (Ruger Bisley). When I load both with heavy bullet hot rounds, the 475 kicks MUCH less than the 45. So I'd think a 45 Colt that's magnaported would be a joy to shoot....especially if you don't push the limit when pulling the handle on the powder drop.