A new study from the FBI�s Training Division shows that overall, the 9mm Luger pistol round is the best option for law enforcement handguns, recommending departments shouldn�t switch their side arms to larger rounds considered by many to be more lethal.

Based in a combination of factors, including so-called �stopping power,� weight and availability, the FBI study shows that the 9mm round penetrates far enough, allows for shooters to carry more rounds, and is more widely available and less expensive than alternative rounds like the .45 ACP or .40 Smith & Wesson.
�Most of what is �common knowledge� with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore. � Handgun stopping power is simply a myth,� the FBI said in its report. �There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto.�

The study � which was concluded May 6 but has just been leaked online � comes as the U.S. military is considering a new handgun to replace its decades-old Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and some law enforcement agencies are debating whether to outfit their officers with heavier rounds. The findings may also help civilian gun owners decide which handgun to purchase for self defense and concealed carry.

Arguing �stopping power� only applies to shots to the central nervous system (the head or neck), the FBI says modern 9mm Luger ammunition retains most of the ballistic characteristics and penetration power as its larger-caliber brethren, but is easier to control and leads to more accurate shots.

The study shows most law enforcement shootings result in only about 30 percent of the rounds hitting their target.

�The Ballistic Research Facility has conducted a test which compares similar sized Glock pistols in both .40 S&W and 9mm calibers, to determine if more accurate and faster hits are achievable with one versus the other,� the FBI says. �To date, the majority of the study participants have shot more quickly and more accurately with 9mm caliber Glock pistols. The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.�

So when the skill of the shooter � with many agencies and even civilian shooters unable to train on a consistent basis � is a factor, there�s no shortcut in shooting a larger-caliber round.

�While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance,� the study says. �Given the above realities and the fact that numerous ammunition manufacturers now make 9mm Luger service ammunition with outstanding premium line law enforcement projectiles, the move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.�

I'm happy to hear that as it means more .45 Auto for me.

Seriously, during the ammo shortage I could always find .45 Auto hardball on the shelve. Not so with 9MM.

Should we now expect a flood of used handguns in the market? I could use a nice, traditional 1911 to go with my 1911 in 9mm, LOL.

I don't question their findings, but I do know that there's fact and then there's opinions and there's a very grey, fuzzy line between them.

They will be wrong. The 45 ALWAYS blows a man clean off his feet. Even if one misses.

Also, in Texas nothing will change. The LE folks down there like when the media ask why they shot the 45 in incident X and being able to tell them "cuz they don't make a 46!".

Yawn.

I bet their srt team is switching as we speak. Right.

every time i hear of the 9mm vs. .45acp debate, given that i do like the 9mm, it's you got a 300lb former defensive guard about the size of a lowland gorilla wanting to rip you apart, which one would you rather have?

Every time I read advice from the FBI I laugh my balls off and the pavement gets cracked.




Travis

Trick question!! No guards on defense.

Wasn't it the FBI that said North Korea was definitely behind the Sony Hack??

Over the 16 years I did federal investigations, I didn't find the FBI to be particularly adroit. We'd be forced to brief them on cases that they'd take over once we'd proven them.

I like many different handgun calibers and many different types of handguns.
Some of the many arguments, and conclusions as to what is superior or not,
are interesting, and even informative, but make no difference to me as to what
I am comfortable with, for whatever purposes I choose - within reason.

I don't think this latest FBI ballistic study is going to have any more penetration
than the 9MM round already has, as regards to what so many already believe anyway.

There's a key point in that study that defines it all. Hits matter. You can't miss fast enough to win, so go with what you can hit with first. If that's a 9x19, great; it'll work. Ditto a .40, or a .45. No sense carrying a .45 that you can't shoot, vs a 9 that you can, based upon "stopping power". You have to hit first.

In 1986 the FBI blamed the 115gr 9mm Silvertip bullet and said use the Winchester 147gr target bullets which BTW were not designed to expand. Then the FBI said the 10mm is the way to go. Then the 40 S&W and now back to the 9mm.

Exactly, and some need all the chances they can get, hence the 9mm. I have a LE buddy that can hit kill zone fairly well with his issued G19 at 50 yards, but tells me that many of his fellow LEOs that are fairly poor shots, and can never keep up with him once the distance increases. He's scary good with his "play"/personally modified pistol.

Hmmmmm, and what do you suppose the highest priority of the Training Division is?

Is there a Forensic Division? Do they have any input here?

I'm a 9mm fan myself, but this seems a little bit agenda-driven to me.

Where ballistics are concerned I personally think the FBI has been spot on for at least the past 20 years. Ever since they developed their criteria, they have been very on track. I very much like their criteria and I consider it to be very relevant. I personally don't see anything "new" in this latest report. Dr. Fackler has been saying that there's no difference in common combat cartridges for the past 20 years. Since 124 and 147 grain 9mm loads all meet the FBI's criteria these days, what they're saying makes sense. You get more ammo, it's easier to shoot well, and it's less abusive to the gun vs. the .40; makes sense.

Not that I'm giving up my LW Commander anytime soon...but I pick that for the gun, not necessarily the cartridge.

Ballistic research has always come out of the training division.

I have 9mm, 357 Mag, 40, 45, in the inventory. To tell the truth I feel equally protected with any.

Situational awareness and bullet placement make sense to me.

Most of the time I carry 9mm or 40SW in full size Glocks.

The laws of physics no longer apply. A little hammer hits just as hard as a big hammer, because the FBI says so.

Common defensive handguns are ALL little hammers.

It will always go back to the person pulling the trigger making the most difference in a fight. I have carried .45, .40 and 9mm with ammo ranging from 230 fmj to 115 Corbon loads and never let the caliber dictate my tactics nor did it cost me sleepless nights worrying about under/over penetration.

I do feel the consistency of terminal performance has been significantly improved and that has closed the gap in many ways. I carry a .40 most of the time but when I grab my 9mm shield I dont feel undergunned.

Screw the FBI. I'll stick with my .357 Sig and 45 acp.

And I'd take my Glock 20 in 10mm instead of the .357sig & 45acp, only if I lived in Alaska, instead of TX.

What do you expect from;

F*****g
Bunch of
IDIOTs.
WILL.

What reading between the lines tells me is that since the girls like less recoil and when training involves shooting at paper targets. The 9mm is easier for the girls to qualify with during training.
If they are shooting bad guys they can just double tap and call for backup.
Civilians are sheep and will just go along to get along.
A little one is just as good as a big one? Of course it is.

IMHO the 357 Magnum is still the best police cartridge

Apparently it�s all about being able to get the agents to pass Qualifications. That�s easier to do with a light caliber than a heavy one. The FBI can�t admit they are going to a less powerful cartridge so they come out with that claim that �All cartridges are equal� .

I have no problem with 9mm...I carry one...it is called the .38 Super. The difference is my gun throws a 9mm bullet at 1450 fps and and theirs at 950 fps...

And for those of you who have not heard they are again on the 147 Subsonic Bandwagon, back to the 15 round .38 Special.

But of course we have come so far in designer Boolits that the new 147s are much better than the old ones...tell that to a car door...

They need to change their name from The Federal Bureau of Investigation to the (F)ederal (I)nvestigation (B)ureau.

Lets just hope that State and Local LE Agencies are not again taken in by their test tube Jello slime BS...

Bob

You're an idiot.

That is all.

Not true. Nose guard lines up on the center.

HAH! That proves the 9MM actually is better!

We'll said sir!!

Yeah, 25 years of ballistics tests showing nearly identical wounds from 9mm, .357 Sig, .40, & .45 really don't mean anything at all. I'm sure you have it right.

How many people here who are proponents of the .4s and dislike the 9s have ever shot them side by side, with a timer, to see if there's a difference?

9mm rounds that perform best and meet all the FBI's criteria are 124+P JHPand 147 JHP. The 147 gets you a little more barrier penetration and the 124 gives you a very flat trajectory out to 150 yards.

124 meets the FBI criteria with the least recoil. But muzzle flash/noise are increased.
147 does away with the noise/flash, but has more recoil. So whatever is most important to you.

Something you can say about the .45 ACP. While it may not penetrate as well as the best 9mm's, it's penetration is more than sufficient, and you don't need any +P rounds to get excellent performance. In proper loadings the .45 ACP is quieter than the 9mm, .357 Sig, or the .40, and has almost no perceptible muzzle flash...you can't say that about the others.

.357 Sig and especially .40 S&W are absolutely abusive to 9mm sized guns and wear them out faster than most .45's or 9mm's.

And since the .45 requires a larger pistol, most .45's recoil less than most .40's.

9mm may be the ideal LE round, but the .45 ACP hasn't lost a step at all. It's still THE combat handgun cartridge that all are measured against.

There certainly is a noticable difference. But the most important shot is the first, and that's a level playing field. But I don't think shot split times are significant enough to ever be a determining factor in a gunfight.

FWIW, my best split times with a "major" caliber gun is the .38 Super in the 1911, followed by the .40 in a 1911.

Worst are a .40 on a 9mm frame...my worst ever split times came from a Glock 22 in .40.

Best "minor" split times...9mm Browning Hi Power. I can't recall ever shooting a 9mm 1911 on a timer, but I'll wager the split times would be better than the Hi Power.

From worst to best, the difference between shots is under 1/4 of a second. So while that may be huge in a pistol match (especially considering the cumulative effect over long stages), I just can't see where a second shot on target in .12 of a second .vs .24 of a second would ever be a determining factor.

I prefer revolvers, especially .38 spec-.357 mag. But, autos are OK .45, 9MM, 40 S&W with good loads should do fine. Arguing one cartridge over another is illogical. Shooter competence is the #1 factor by far, bullet performance second, the head stamp on the case doesn't seem to matter too much to me.

Yep, not the arrow, but the Indian behind the arrow.

Got me. Damn that 3-4 defense!

Although I think that's more correctly a nose tackle.

ime bullet technology has changed the game a fair bit in hunting.


that it would do so for defensive purposes makes sense. So it comes as no surprise to me that what used to pass for conventional wisdom .4 is greater than 9 is not as true as it once was.

but just like hunting the guys with the most experience seem to be in the know, just a coincidence I'm sure (grin)

it's more Indian than arrow

and yet a very large percentage of the population spends way more time determining which arrow is best, rather than improving their Indian skills.

for me choice of handgun is largely determined by ammo availability.

figure there's lots of .40 around due to it's popularity with LE

that may change if LE adopts the 9 as it's primary cartridge

that's about the only constant we can count on is change


guys that are good with their 9's, their 40's or their .45's are probably NOT running around willy nilly looking for their edge in cartridge, but looking for their edge in practice.

having a Lamborghini in the garage or tools to work on one doesn't make you a race car driver or a mechanic.

having a firearm is much the same, knowing how to use what you have and practicing with it???? I dunno maybe a lil merit to something like that?

...so if these new and improved 9mm 147 bullets are so perfect at 950-1000 fps then all the ammo companies need to make identical bullets in .357 and load them in .38 Specials...a +P .38/147 should be easy to make go 950-1000 fps out of a 4" barrel.

...then we wouldn't need the .357 Magnum any more....

Bob

True

2-2...I agree with you but you gotta compare apples to apples.

Not all "hunting" is the same. Hunting "non-dangerous" game at a distance is not the same as dangerous game up close. "Hunting" a brown bear with a .30-06 and shooting him at 100 yards is a lot different than having one come for you unprovoked at 50'. You want the 06, or a .375.

As to same caliber comparisons, take the same defensive shooting situation...you want a .35 Remington with a 200 grain bullet at 2000 fps or a .358 Norma Mag. at 2800 fps.... Well you say you shoot the Remington better....great, but if you miss that brain shot, which you are probably going to do as it isn't sitting on a table like a block of Jello, then what do you want hitting the bear, the punny Remington or the Norma Mag.?

And it's the same with .35 caliber rounds. The .38 Special gained the deserved reputation in LE as a "widow maker". If it worked well on the street the .38 Super and .357 Magnum would have never been invented. Same with the 147 Subsonic 9mm...if it had worked so great the .40 would have never been invented. Designer bullet may work a little better this time around but the only thing that makes a .35 caliber work is VELOCITY and the more the better.

And before you think I am a +40+ guy I am not. The last ten year in LE I could buy and carry ANY 9mm, 40 or .45 I wanted to (except SA semi-autos)...my choice...S&W 6906 9mm carrying the departmental issue 115 Silvertips. Why, because I had friends who shot people with the rounds and knew they worked. And if they had switched to the 147 SubSonic ammo I would have ditched the 6906 and bought a .45 because I had no confidence in the round...

Bob

You make far too much sense.

When my old agency went from Sw5906 (9mm) to the SW99 (.40) they seemed genuinely shocked that scores dropped. I explained it was very predictable that going from one of the heaviest 9mm on the market to a light .40 was going to cause scores to drop.

Solution: Change the qual, suddenly everyone was back to shooting 90% and the admin was ecstatic at our ability to "push through with innovation". I still keep that email so I can remind myself why I rarely count on an agency for expertise in firearms. I have been with my new agency for over 1 1/2 years and have yet to be trained on low light tactics or do any sort of qualification in low light.

Santa left me a go pro and I was thinking about a test. I can use my G22 frame with .22, 9mm and .40 to shoot the exact same drills with no change in trigger, grip etc. Is there any interest in seeing the results of this??

oh heck ya varmintsinc

would love to hear your results


though doubt I'll be very surprised by them

How fast does one need to shoot to defend themselves? The +P+ 9mm improve performance, but so does the +P+ 45 ACP also known as 45 Super. The +p+ 45 ACP leave larger wound channel and penetrate deeper than any 9mm load that I have ever tried. The recoil can be managed if one desires.

RJM I hear you and no real argument

just life and proximity leads me to understand there's no magic in the .375

best pard shot one in the chest that was charging him and could have slapped him in the chin with muzzle of his rifle, at the same instance guy he was guiding shot the bear with a .300 win mag. I'm sure the bear eventually died, but not before he got clean out of their ability to find him. Same pard now carries a 458 Lott for "serious" bear work.


if I'm putting rounds into someone trying to hurt me, truthfully I'd prefer a 12 gauge, but can't find a good concealable holster for one.

dropping down to sidearms I'd prefer the rounds hit him like a .44 mag. but not gonna carry that as it's too heavy and too limited on capacity before reloading

so I make compromises, like most what everyone does with what I carry, if I carry

iow's bear or human for a one shot stop, CNS is about all that's reliable.


doesn't matter if you're using 10mm or 9mm

most humans are easier to kill than most bears thank goodness.

I'd rather trust my fate to the bears, but I'm going armed when I do (grin)

Out of curiosity I'd like to see the results. I think the difference will be less with you than with most people. I think the difference would be most dramatic in those who shoot the least.

That was the point I was trying to make.

With a good shooter you'll see:
Recoil / Shooting difficulty increase......Split times increase
---And that way they'll maintain their accuracy

But I'd bet that with 90% of gun owners when put in a stressful situation you'll see:
Recoil / Shooting difficulty increase......Split times stay the same (as fast as they can pull the trigger)
---And accuracy will suffer dramatically as the shooting gets more difficult

___________________________

Kevin is talking about people who shoot. A lot.

I'm talking about every cross-eyed retard who rants about how folks oughtta man up and shoot a bigger gun. The whole time having no idea how the average shooter (themselves included) would get better hits with a smaller gun.

like a 25acp?

Actionable Upgrades!!!!

It would be a level playing field IF the shooter only fired one shot. But in a real life shooting it's likely that you'll be firing a volley of shots all at once.

It'd be a rare self-defense shooting where the good guy said, "I fired one shot and assessed its usefulness, then determined that a second follow up shot was needed, then I looked the bad guy over and saw that he was still holding a knife so I fired a third shot at him."

I think you'd agree that it's more likely to be something along the lines of, "I saw that he pulled a knife on me and I shot him four times."

Those 4 shots can be considered to be "the first shot" because they were all fired with one decision to shoot and in all likelihood with one sight picture.

Recoil management matters. And a light-recoiling pistol is easier to manage. Split times are just a reflection of that.



Which brings me to the point I was trying to make. A practiced shooter will adjust his cadence to the pistol he's shooting and the target he's shooting at. And with practice, his split times will be so close between different calibers that the difference is negligible.

But most shooters aren't practiced shooters. They won't slow their shots down to compensate for recoil. Especially under stress they're going to fire as quickly as they can, regardless of how difficult the shot is or how the recoil is affecting their sights.

So when they're firing that 4 shot volley on their "first shot", where are the shots going? Are they staying on target because the shooter is slowing down to manage the recoil of his He-Man .4X? No. They're tracking right up over the bad guys shoulder.

If you're going to shoot as fast as possible, which most people are, a soft shooting pistol is a better choice.
_________________________________

Of course, actually shooting would avoid all these issues. But the fact is that people aren't going to practice. They're going to bang away on their keyboard about how gol-darn Mericans ought to be able to handle a dawg-gone FORTEEFIVE and them nine-milliliters are for as useless as tits on a boar hawg.

So the reality is that a handgun is still nothing more than a handgun. Surprising.

I think your data pool is very dated. The "widomaker" .38 Special hasn't been issued in at least 25 years to any major LE Agency, and even 25 years ago it wasn't the "widomaker" anymore when used with +P JHP ammunition. The famous "FBI" load which is at least 40 years old had a very good reputation on the street. The "widowmaker" is the 158 RNL load, and that bullet design is at least 120 years old.

The switch to the .40 from the 9mm 147's is because the first generation of 147's didn't reliably expand. The solution for all of the .35 caliber handgun cartridges years ago was more velocity. These days, it's not really a "must have" since the manufacturers have designed bullets that perform very well at sub-sonic velocities.

With that said, it's not as if the velocity thing is suddenly irrelevant. Most LE agencies tend to use 124+P to get the barrier penetration they require rather than going to the 147.

The high velocity .35 bullet is just as valid today as it has ever been, the lower velocity 147's have finally come into their own. So while I really share your love of the .38 Super and 9x23, I don't agree that the ONLY thing that works in a .35 caliber is velocity. That was true for most of the time, it's not true today (at least in my opinion).

With that clarification, I see your point.

Neither
12 ga with # 4 buck

bea175 - I must have seen that Dirty Harry clip 100,000 times ... and I still love it.

Forget that #4 I'll take 000 buck

What type of hard barier penetration are you referring? Speed penetrates steel better than heavier slower projectiles.

The old school 'widow maker' was the 158gr LRN at about 750 fps. Six in the gun.

The modern 147 gr 9mm at 950-1000 fps, or the +P/+P+ versions at 1100-1175 fps. Fifteen-plus in the gun.

I think there's a significant difference there.

The big diff is that the military can not employ HP's but only FMJ overseas (sans some covert ops).

In this case the 9mm blows and the 230 45 ACP round are clearly superior.

FBI should let the girls qualify with a 22 rimfire.
After all they are only shooting paper targets.
If they are tasked to engage Black Panthers with AK-47's they can always double tap or wait until backup arrives.

All else being equal, that is correct, and maybe the faster bullet does penetrate better on steel. But this is a discussion about the FBI's criteria and using their testing protocol 124 grain +P and a 147 at 950fps, it seems the barrier penetration is about the same...or not different enough to lose any sleep over.

Their penetration testing isn't about absolute penetration, but meeting minimum standards for penetration and expansion. Given their criteria the two rounds tend to come out about the same. Maybe with different criteria the results would be different. Or perhaps if the steel were thicker, or more sheets, then perhaps the +P loading would come out markedly ahead.

My recollection is that standard pressure 124's only had problems when subjected to the auto glass portion of the testing. Standard pressure came close, but not quite. +P put the round over the top.

147 grain bullets have always met the requirements for penetration, but have been marginal at best on expansion until more recently.

Understanding, the FBI is returning to the 9mm because they find it fits their needs best when all factors are weighed. So some of the factors they use may not be important to you or I, and therefore would lead us to choose something different.


Here's a snippet from there test criteria:

Test Event 1: Bare Gelatin The gelatin block is bare, and shot at a range of ten feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the block. This test event correlates FBI results with those being obtained by other researchers, few of whom shoot into anything other than bare gelatin. It is common to obtain the greatest expansion in this test. Rounds which do not meet the standards against bare gelatin tend to be unreliable in the more practical test events that follow.
Test Event 2: Heavy Clothing The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block.
Test Event 3: Steel Two pieces of 20 gauge, hot rolled steel with a galvanized finish are set three inches apart. The steel is in six inch squares. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of steel. The shot is made at a distance of 10 feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of steel. Light Clothing is one layer of the above described T-shirt material and one layer of the above described cotton shirt material, and is used as indicated in all subsequent test events.

The steel used is the heaviest gauge steel commonly found in automobile doors. This test simulates the weakest part of a car door. In all car doors, there is an area, or areas, where the heaviest obstacle is nothing more that two pieces of 20 gauge steel.
Test Event 4: Wallboard Two pieces of half-inch standard gypsum board are set 3.5 inches apart. The pieces are six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of gypsum. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of gypsum. This test event simulates a typical interior building wall.
Test Event 5: Plywood One piece of three-quarter inch AA fir plywood is used. The piece is six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear surface of the plywood. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front surface of the plywood. This test event simulates the resistance of typical wooden doors or construction timbers.
Test Event 6: Automobile Glass One piece of A.S.I. one-quarter inch laminated automobile safety glass measuring 15x18 inches is set at an angle of 45� to the horizontal. The line of bore of the weapon is offset 15� to the side, resulting in a compound angle of impact for the bullet upon the glass. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the glass. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the center of the glass pane. This test event with its two angles simulates a shot taken at the driver of a car from the left front quarter of the vehicle, and not directly in front of it.
Test Event 7: Heavy Clothing at 20 yards This event repeats Test Event 2 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the gelatin. This test event assesses the effects of increased range and consequently decreased velocity.
Test Event 8: Automobile Glass at 20 yards This event repeats Test Event 6 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the glass, and without the 15� offset. The shot is made from straight in front of the glass, simulating a shot at the driver of a car bearing down on the shooter.

Not to mention a very modern JHP vs. a very antiquated RNL.

Interesting, especially since the dhs just bought 10 billion 40 S&W rounds.

For me with todays bullets:

9mm 115 TAC-HP's @1250 fps.
40 S&W 140 gr TAC-HP's @1250 fps.
45 ACP 185 gr TAC-HP's @1175 fps.

Don't think I'd know [read care] the difference in being hit with any of the three so loaded.

I guess now they will need 10B 9mm rounds, and can destroy all that 40...

But of course. lol

Laughin' here...

... since I just re-invested in the .40 S&W handgun craze, I might have to try to acquire some of that "surplus" DHS ammo...

The government can't sell p*ssy at a profit, they waste more than they embezzle from taxpayers and we give a damn what cartridge they choose to issue their agents??? Seriously, the government is the root of all evil until it's time to arm ourselves? Am I the only one that sees the irony here???

If they randomly picked a round that'd make sense. But nobody ever accused you of making sense.

They don't randomly do anything. Actually, the way they do everything is the opposite of random. They very methodically decide what stupidity to do next. Have you ever actually read a bill? Does not doing things randomly automatically lend it credibility??? You still think a government that can't make money running a brothel should pick your next self defense tool??? You sign up for Obamacare too?

Nobody ever accused you of not being a douchebag but I try to give you the benefit of the doubt........sometimes.

What part of that rambling, incoherent diatribe has anything to do with the FBI evaluation self defense ammunition?

Why did they pass over the .357 Sig ? Lot of state highway patrols use it?
Locally we've seen several LE shootings with .40S&W that the "shootee" lived to sue...

What part of, "why do you trust the government to choose your self defense tools" do you not understand??? In five years, their position will change yet again and for what unforeseen political reasons? Has no one actually examined the criteria by which they make their decision? Just like all the dumbasses that look to the heavily flawed, limited and outdated USFS study to choose their bear defense weapon, it makes no sense to me and requires more than a little blind stupidity. I'd rather use my own judgement and choose what is the right tool for my own personal needs than to blindly and stupidly follow any government entity. Does the following, which is an admission that their agents are not trained well enough to be effective with anything larger than 9mm, apply to one and all???

"So when the skill of the shooter � with many agencies and even civilian shooters unable to train on a consistent basis � is a factor, there�s no shortcut in shooting a larger-caliber round."

Try addressing the actual substance of my post, rather than just slinging juvenile insults. I'm immune to the insults of anonymous morons on the internet.

Because with modern 9mm ammo, the 357 Sig has become irrelevant. A large majority of state agencies who were early adopters are dropping it for the 9mm, including Texas DPS, the earliest and loudest supporter.

The Sig round is loud, obnoxious, and abusive to guns, while offering little in return.

This info comes after the Government buys a bizillon rounds of 40 cal?

Ask a Paramedic or anyone who work in a Trauma Center ER. Where a person is hit is more important than which pistol bullet they're hit by. A rifle or shotgun wound to center of mass is several times more lethal than any pistol is.

If the person your shooting is wearing modern ballistic neither the 9x19 NATO or the 45 ACP is going to penetrate. Carrying an M4 carbine beats any pistol

Or an FN 5.7.

Yeah...but that adds another cartridge and weapons for it into military logistics. Has the 5.7 FN cartridge been adopted as a NATO standard?

How did we get into military, this is about the FBI's choice of 9mm.

I have.

Not so much a .4 and over fan any more.

Hits come noticeably faster from the 9MM and 124gr +P Golddots kill pretty darn well.

read between the lines, as this is a tacit admission that girls can't handle the.40 S&W.

That about sumsnit up. I've always held that if you aren't able to qualify/won't put the time in learning to handle the issued weapon peoficiently, then you don't need to be employed at that agency, not only do you put yourself at risk but your coworkers too

Mmmm.... no.





Travis

Really it's not. The only change is in the issue gun. The FBI has always allowed their agents to carry weapons other than the issue gun, in .38 Special, 9mm, .40 S&W, 10mm, and .45 ACP. If it's on their list of approved weapons, you can qualify with it, and you carry FBI issue ammunition, you can carry something other than your issue weapon.

About 6 weeks ago I read an article where they stated one of the main driving issues was the lifespan of the .40 S&W guns was unacceptably low, and 9mm's lasted much longer.

Wear and tear caused by the 40 is huge.



Travis

What are they claiming the lifespan of a .40 is?

much longer than most folks will ever shoot it

I keep hearing about the shortened life spand of .40s. But like Blue said what is it?

Three of our neighboring depts issue G22s. They have had the same guns now for 12+ years and haven't had any frame failures or otherwise broken guns. When were they supposed to start breaking. We typically get new guns every 10 years.

So durability is also a factor? Hmmmmm, who'd have thought that something other than performance would be a factor.......Bluedreaux?

I also find it interesting that bullet technology has progressed for the 9mm but somehow the .45ACP has been left behind. Smells like BS. Also interesting how the difference between the 9mm and .45ACP, in other cartridges for other purposes, is the difference between a deer/elk cartridge and a dangerous game cartridge. Perception is everything and bullshit is never more prevalent than it is with autopistol paper punchers and their theories about lethality.

After all that, I have never said that the 9mm was a poor choice for self defense. Only that it'll never be "just as good".

We shoot a lot of .40 in plastic guns and I've never seen any wear or tear (or even malfunctions that were't ammo / magazine related). You'd be hard pressed to find a LE agency in the country that shoots more .40 through individual pistols than we do.

Some folks just can't shoot a handgun well to save their life (no pun intended). 9mm, 40, whatever.

I've seen a lot of big strong Marines who could barely qualify with the M9. It's not about the amount of recoil, it's just the brain response to sudden noise and recoil, however mild. Some folks just cannot overcome it, and it doesn't have anything to do with their sex, or physical build.

Granted, for those who shoot well, I do believe the 9mm will allow faster splits, etc, than the 40. It's just physics.

And this is always a factor that ANY law enforcement agency must consider. Not all officers and agents are shooters. For many it's just another tool on the tool belt and they only shoot when they have to. Which is a lot of my point. They don't make their choice based solely on what is the most effective cartridge.

If you're proficient with your .45, it would be stupid to trade it in for a 9mm 'just' because the FBI did.

Right! I've never seen it happen, that said the reason PSP went from G21s to Sig p227s was FTF and frame cracks. And those guns that presented problems were brand new Gen 4 pistols, prior to that they issued G37s and went to the 21 for magazine capacity. Everyone I have spoken too says they Love the new Sig though

My opinion,

9mm, 40, 45 are so close that if you have good defensive ammo in either, the differences in effectiveness are too subtle to mean anything.

A meaningful increase in killing power comes with the AR15 with expanding ammo, or 12 ga buckshot or Brenneke style slug.

A bigger part of the problem is that fact that most qualifications are meaningless. As I stated before I have been ordered to make a qualification easier because an agency was not willing to invest the time necessary to develop true proficiency. I honestly believe the vast majority of officers operate at a level of conscious competence and can only perform well when able to operate in that environment. When you throw high stress, poor light,environment and other factors in they will get lots of misses, poor hits and damn few rounds that hit where they really need to go.

I think it is also fair to say that taking gamesmanship out of the issue, most officers would find it difficult to shoot their way out of the D class on IPSC standards.

To qualify that I think in an average year and officer will fire about 200 rounds of ammunition through their pistol and exactly 20 through the shotgun at the departments time and expense.

When I bring up "civilian standards" like Bill Wilsons 5x5 drill not many are even willing to give it a try because it will embarrass them. I ran it cold yesterday in full duty gear including gloves and a jacket in 27 seconds, I considered it respectable considering my draw stroke includes me tearing my mitten off of my shooting hand. In fair weather and no jacket I can run it in about 22 seconds.

http://pistol-training.com/drills/5x5-skill-test

I completely agree with your assessment of USPSA D-class. And that we'll never really know since you can't get cops to shoot a classifier because they don't want to get embarrassed.

LE firearms training is all over the map. I know a guy who is a serious shooter, and he went through the FBI�s firearms training (he�s a cop and went there as a guest for instructors training), and he said he was pretty impressed. This is a guy who has been to Mas Ayoob�s LFI 1 & 2 classes, and Gunsite. So if he was impressed, then their training must have been downright decent.

As for other LE agencies, they range from piss poor to absolutely excellent. I�ve seen training programs where they gain a certain level of competency at the range and then spend a LOT of time on the video system and force on force. About 20 years ago I spent some time training with Sacramento PD doing force on force and their video systems and their training was damn good. I responded to a lot of officer involved shooting with Sac PD and while they never really impressed me at the range, their actual effectiveness in actual gunfights was remarkably good; I was always quite amazed at how well these guys did when it was real.

On the other end, I�ve seen cops who were just plain scary. Completely unsafe in their handling, and couldn�t hit anything; yet they were out on the street with a weapon on their hips. I�ve never had a cop out-shoot me at the range, NEVER. Most couldn�t even come close. One guy came DAMN close, I wouldn�t want to ever trade rounds with him. I�ve met a couple of cops whom I sure could wipe the floor with me at an IPSC range, but I never actually shot against them.

A friend who worked for 3 years at a shooting range said that the only 2 incidents that drew blood at his range were both cops.

The reality is, most cops just aren�t gun people and have very little interest in becoming better shooters even if the training were offered to them. The few that do are doing everyone a great public service if you ask me.

Unfortunately training is very expensive and most LE agencies just can�t afford to train their officers to a competence level that would be acceptable to people like you and I.

Not sure if you guys are aware of this, but you want to stay in D Class.

Makes bringing home trophies a lot easier.




You're welcome,
Travis

Sandbagger!!!

Our last range "training" was about 50 rounds of horrid drills and we got 3 hours of overtime for it. I asked to skip the pay and get a chunk of ammo equivalent to the overtime pay but they looked at me like I was from Mars.

A .30/06.

I was all hopeful we would get to ditch our G22s in our department and guess what we did...Only to get Gen 4 G22s, LOL.
Some drink the cool aide some don't.

Fascinating ! The FBI, which has very little real gun fighting experience on the street, is again telling us what is the "best" pistol round for whatever we need to carry a pistol for.
Just for the record, I happen to like the 9mm round well enough. I've owned three of them and have even considered buying another one lately.
But there is no way a light 115-124 gr. bullet is going to shoot through common barriers like a heavier .40-.45 round. Not unless one uses different bullet designs. That would reduce the 9mm's effectiveness a good bit.
Most people can shoot a 9mm pistol alot better than they can say a .45. Again, no arguement from me. But it simply doesn't apply to me. Which is my point. I don't believe in the "one size fits all" rule in handgun selection. Either in cartriage or gun selection.
The best example I can cite is the fact that I may be carrying for defense against both people as well as animals. I'll take a proper 10mm w/ appropriate ammo any day over a 9mm for that job.
One can argue all he wants that most can shoot a 9mm faster on a timed course in competition. One can argue that the increased magazine capacity of the 9mm is a big advantage in a gunfight especially against multiple opponents, ect.
I've got bad news for you. A couple of tenths of a second isn't going to save your life. If you go first and hit him well enough, you win. If he goes first, you'd better pray he misses, they often do, BTW, and that you can control your shooting while under fire to make a good hit. Most can't do this, no matter what they are shooting. They shoot their gun dry and miss even at ranges measured in feet.
Multiple opponents ? You'd better hope they all miss before you can get to them. Again, really hard to do when under fire or if you know you are about to come under fire. But, if you can make single, effective hits, you can do it.
The truth is that there is no single "best" round that fits everybody. Shoot what you shoot best that at least meets the minimum standards of penetration. In my book the 9mm, with quality ammo, meets this minumum. The .380 does not.
But even a .22 can be made to work if you can make hits under pressure and resist the very strong temptation to pump more rounds after the first one.
Pick the gun that feels natural and gives you confidence. Pick a load that you shoot well. But above all, make it count. E

No offense meant Oheremicus, but I just got a case of vertigo trying to follow your logic.

There are a lot of variables.

I was shooting at an empty metal 55 gal drum one time with 230gr ball. It only penetrated the first layer of steel, dented the back one. 9mm 124gr ball shot cleanly through both sides.

Shane,

Stop making sense. Please. It just confuses people here.

Long and short of it is, personnel will continue to be hired who cannot or will not become proficient with larger caliber handgun rounds.

That being the case, I came to my own conclusion long ago, that police personnel should be allowed to carry whatever cartridge they are most proficient with, in terms of accuracy and speed.

I can't always control who my closest assistance might be, so I'd rather them show up with hardware they can actually use, whomever they are, and whatever kind of wedding tackle they happen to be packing.

There is less surface area to cause friction with the smaller diameter bullet.

Bill Jordan the author of No Second Place Winner
was a Border Patrol officer for many years.
This is a good book to read during a cold winter night.

Sped penetrates steel better, no question. Kevin Gibson keeps saying that 147 grain 9mm penetrates hard barriers better than 124. I have asked what to barrier he is talking about, but no answer.
I tried a hard barrier test a few weeks ago using wood with a 9mm 124 grain +P XTP VS a 220 grain +P 45 ACP Critical Duty and the 45 penetrated slightly more than the 9mm. Neither bullet expanded. Then I tried that 45 Super with the 230 XTP. The Super penetrated much farther and the bullet expanded. 45 Super wins every time.

Years ago i shot an old burning barrel on the farm. It used to be a 300-400 gallon tank.

The 45 and 10mm made nice bulges with 230 and 200 grain XTP/10 mm. The 357 and 44 mag penetrated. Nothing was scientific, I wish I had a 9 mm then to compare.

All the talk of barrier penetration is kinda bizarre. Outside of LE, the odds of you ever shooting through a car door or windshield are astronomical.

I'd pick a pistol that was really good for the shooting that I'm really likely to encounter and marginal for what I'm marginally likely to do.

And become really good at the skills I'm really likely going to need, while accepting marginal ability on skills I'm marginally going to need.

And pick ammo that's realy good for the things I'm really likely going to shoot and marginal for what I'm marginally likely going to shoot.




I could spend hours finding the perfect ammo for every situation and the ultimate holster to hide the ultimate pistol and becoming superhumanly proficient at one-hand-weak-hand reloads. But I've got a life.

XTP or hard cast git r done for me. People throw this ballistics gack out there yet when you test it yourself it doesn't always work that way.

I feel well armed carrying my 9, 357 Sig, 40 or 45 ACP. I truly believe your bullet choice is the key to stopping a fight if you ever have to , more than a few thousands of bullet diameter . Your carry whatever makes you feel the safest, but you would be wise to choose a good bullet for whatever cal you decide to carry .

That's it Bea, good bullets and shot placement, all that being said, a handgun is still a handgun.

Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen... all else is gravy.

i shoot a 40 good, but i shoot a 9 much gooder. i perfer the 9 and will probably carry one at next qualification

I Carry a Kahr PM9 with 124gr.+P Speer Gold Dots. I do not feel a bit undergun. The truth is I have tried every seemingly concievable CCW carry known, other then my Scad framed M&P .357 they are the only 2 guns I feel like packing all day. A heavier gun will just be left at home.

That being said, if I were carrying it as a duty side arm, I would feel much more confident with my G20 10mm, but I am sure they would call it overkill.
If some thug was laying it on heavy with an AK, and you had to choose a reasonable carry pistol which would it be a 9 or a 10? I would rather have my AR, but that is not an option. I think I would choose my 10.

9mm is best for THEM because they are tasked to get the girls qualified.
They have body armor to save them if they get shot at and they have backup.

For those of us who are civilians none of this applies. We need to figure out
what is best for us.

I can't comment on the FBI. But as a 24 years military veteran it's my observation that except for the Marine Corps the other Services put very little money and time into small arms training. It's not about "girls can't handle". It's about a chronic lack of training due to the low priority from the Brass

I've got some RWS 9mm FMJ with steel jacketed bullets (copper washed). One day, I'm going to find an old, junker car and shoot it up a little, just for S&G.

I hear they do a pretty good job on Lebanese taxis.

I've got some of that swiss 9mm ammo made by rws. Same stuff I think, Same idea i have too i think.

I've never tried any of the RWS stuff, but I have had the opportunity to run some of the Hirtenberger variety of spicy 9mm, and it is the real deal.

everyone should just carry a good old 25 auto like this little FN and just head when needed with FMJ

Bear gun!

I think i will use on the next hog hunt

It'll "Way Overpenetrate".

You may earn a good 'sausage rootin' for that stunt.

all i have to do is stick it down the pigs throat and pull the trigger

I have a 7.62 x 25 that will really overpenetrate.

Why would the FBI lie about this? They're from the Government and they're here to help.

You got that right!!
The only gun in 40 years that I have had an AD with in my house.
Dang thing tore the hell out of 2 rooms. Months later, I was finding stuff that it had gone through.

If all handgun ammo performs the same and depends totally on bullet placement that explains why 22 rimfire ammo is so hard to find.I would expect 22 magnum to be even more effective but maybe bullet placement trumps everything.

The flip side of your statement is that you should CCW a .460 S&W. Happy mediums and compromises, right? All that stuff in the middle does about the same job and fills about the same role. Which to me indicates the Indian is more important that the arrow.

since the 7.62x25 was brought up had to add this. Number of years ago we decided to give many glock 19's to the iraqi police to replace their former eastern block stuff. I had a friend detached to their police at the time. He said they promptly sold them in the black market, prefering the older tokerov round, 7.62x25 as it penetrated better car doors, windshields etc. At around that time i had fired some russian ammo in that caliber through a lid for a 50gallon steel drum, into a compressor tank penetrating the side and bulging the other side, which impressed the snot out of me. The worlds i think first true magnum cartridge before the word magnum was used.
I was also told while no ordinary grunt could be trusted with a pistol on base, when doorknocking it was common to replace that fmj military stuff with brand new winchester jhp stuff bought in the village bazaar. It was taken out prior to coming back to base. One does what one must do.

Off topic, but I've never understood why the Soviets switched from 7.62x25 to 9x18.

Against someone not wearing any sort of body armor, the 9x18 creates a larger wound. And that change happened long before soldiers started wearing body armor...but now it doesn't look like such a good trade does it?

Some of it was probably due to the ease/economy of manufacturing a straight-wall cartridge over a bottle-neck cartridge.