Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Case Closed: FBI Says 9mm Is The Best Pistol Round

A bigger part of the problem is that fact that most qualifications are meaningless. As I stated before I have been ordered to make a qualification easier because an agency was not willing to invest the time necessary to develop true proficiency. I honestly believe the vast majority of officers operate at a level of conscious competence and can only perform well when able to operate in that environment. When you throw high stress, poor light,environment and other factors in they will get lots of misses, poor hits and damn few rounds that hit where they really need to go.

I think it is also fair to say that taking gamesmanship out of the issue, most officers would find it difficult to shoot their way out of the D class on IPSC standards.

To qualify that I think in an average year and officer will fire about 200 rounds of ammunition through their pistol and exactly 20 through the shotgun at the departments time and expense.

When I bring up "civilian standards" like Bill Wilsons 5x5 drill not many are even willing to give it a try because it will embarrass them. I ran it cold yesterday in full duty gear including gloves and a jacket in 27 seconds, I considered it respectable considering my draw stroke includes me tearing my mitten off of my shooting hand. In fair weather and no jacket I can run it in about 22 seconds.

http://pistol-training.com/drills/5x5-skill-test

I completely agree with your assessment of USPSA D-class. And that we'll never really know since you can't get cops to shoot a classifier because they don't want to get embarrassed.

LE firearms training is all over the map. I know a guy who is a serious shooter, and he went through the FBI�s firearms training (he�s a cop and went there as a guest for instructors training), and he said he was pretty impressed. This is a guy who has been to Mas Ayoob�s LFI 1 & 2 classes, and Gunsite. So if he was impressed, then their training must have been downright decent.

As for other LE agencies, they range from piss poor to absolutely excellent. I�ve seen training programs where they gain a certain level of competency at the range and then spend a LOT of time on the video system and force on force. About 20 years ago I spent some time training with Sacramento PD doing force on force and their video systems and their training was damn good. I responded to a lot of officer involved shooting with Sac PD and while they never really impressed me at the range, their actual effectiveness in actual gunfights was remarkably good; I was always quite amazed at how well these guys did when it was real.

On the other end, I�ve seen cops who were just plain scary. Completely unsafe in their handling, and couldn�t hit anything; yet they were out on the street with a weapon on their hips. I�ve never had a cop out-shoot me at the range, NEVER. Most couldn�t even come close. One guy came DAMN close, I wouldn�t want to ever trade rounds with him. I�ve met a couple of cops whom I sure could wipe the floor with me at an IPSC range, but I never actually shot against them.

A friend who worked for 3 years at a shooting range said that the only 2 incidents that drew blood at his range were both cops.

The reality is, most cops just aren�t gun people and have very little interest in becoming better shooters even if the training were offered to them. The few that do are doing everyone a great public service if you ask me.

Unfortunately training is very expensive and most LE agencies just can�t afford to train their officers to a competence level that would be acceptable to people like you and I.

Not sure if you guys are aware of this, but you want to stay in D Class.

Makes bringing home trophies a lot easier.




You're welcome,
Travis

Sandbagger!!!

Our last range "training" was about 50 rounds of horrid drills and we got 3 hours of overtime for it. I asked to skip the pay and get a chunk of ammo equivalent to the overtime pay but they looked at me like I was from Mars.

A .30/06.

I was all hopeful we would get to ditch our G22s in our department and guess what we did...Only to get Gen 4 G22s, LOL.
Some drink the cool aide some don't.

Fascinating ! The FBI, which has very little real gun fighting experience on the street, is again telling us what is the "best" pistol round for whatever we need to carry a pistol for.
Just for the record, I happen to like the 9mm round well enough. I've owned three of them and have even considered buying another one lately.
But there is no way a light 115-124 gr. bullet is going to shoot through common barriers like a heavier .40-.45 round. Not unless one uses different bullet designs. That would reduce the 9mm's effectiveness a good bit.
Most people can shoot a 9mm pistol alot better than they can say a .45. Again, no arguement from me. But it simply doesn't apply to me. Which is my point. I don't believe in the "one size fits all" rule in handgun selection. Either in cartriage or gun selection.
The best example I can cite is the fact that I may be carrying for defense against both people as well as animals. I'll take a proper 10mm w/ appropriate ammo any day over a 9mm for that job.
One can argue all he wants that most can shoot a 9mm faster on a timed course in competition. One can argue that the increased magazine capacity of the 9mm is a big advantage in a gunfight especially against multiple opponents, ect.
I've got bad news for you. A couple of tenths of a second isn't going to save your life. If you go first and hit him well enough, you win. If he goes first, you'd better pray he misses, they often do, BTW, and that you can control your shooting while under fire to make a good hit. Most can't do this, no matter what they are shooting. They shoot their gun dry and miss even at ranges measured in feet.
Multiple opponents ? You'd better hope they all miss before you can get to them. Again, really hard to do when under fire or if you know you are about to come under fire. But, if you can make single, effective hits, you can do it.
The truth is that there is no single "best" round that fits everybody. Shoot what you shoot best that at least meets the minimum standards of penetration. In my book the 9mm, with quality ammo, meets this minumum. The .380 does not.
But even a .22 can be made to work if you can make hits under pressure and resist the very strong temptation to pump more rounds after the first one.
Pick the gun that feels natural and gives you confidence. Pick a load that you shoot well. But above all, make it count. E

No offense meant Oheremicus, but I just got a case of vertigo trying to follow your logic.

There are a lot of variables.

I was shooting at an empty metal 55 gal drum one time with 230gr ball. It only penetrated the first layer of steel, dented the back one. 9mm 124gr ball shot cleanly through both sides.

Shane,

Stop making sense. Please. It just confuses people here.

Long and short of it is, personnel will continue to be hired who cannot or will not become proficient with larger caliber handgun rounds.

That being the case, I came to my own conclusion long ago, that police personnel should be allowed to carry whatever cartridge they are most proficient with, in terms of accuracy and speed.

I can't always control who my closest assistance might be, so I'd rather them show up with hardware they can actually use, whomever they are, and whatever kind of wedding tackle they happen to be packing.

There is less surface area to cause friction with the smaller diameter bullet.

Bill Jordan the author of No Second Place Winner
was a Border Patrol officer for many years.
This is a good book to read during a cold winter night.

Sped penetrates steel better, no question. Kevin Gibson keeps saying that 147 grain 9mm penetrates hard barriers better than 124. I have asked what to barrier he is talking about, but no answer.
I tried a hard barrier test a few weeks ago using wood with a 9mm 124 grain +P XTP VS a 220 grain +P 45 ACP Critical Duty and the 45 penetrated slightly more than the 9mm. Neither bullet expanded. Then I tried that 45 Super with the 230 XTP. The Super penetrated much farther and the bullet expanded. 45 Super wins every time.

Years ago i shot an old burning barrel on the farm. It used to be a 300-400 gallon tank.

The 45 and 10mm made nice bulges with 230 and 200 grain XTP/10 mm. The 357 and 44 mag penetrated. Nothing was scientific, I wish I had a 9 mm then to compare.

All the talk of barrier penetration is kinda bizarre. Outside of LE, the odds of you ever shooting through a car door or windshield are astronomical.

I'd pick a pistol that was really good for the shooting that I'm really likely to encounter and marginal for what I'm marginally likely to do.

And become really good at the skills I'm really likely going to need, while accepting marginal ability on skills I'm marginally going to need.

And pick ammo that's realy good for the things I'm really likely going to shoot and marginal for what I'm marginally likely going to shoot.




I could spend hours finding the perfect ammo for every situation and the ultimate holster to hide the ultimate pistol and becoming superhumanly proficient at one-hand-weak-hand reloads. But I've got a life.

XTP or hard cast git r done for me. People throw this ballistics gack out there yet when you test it yourself it doesn't always work that way.

I feel well armed carrying my 9, 357 Sig, 40 or 45 ACP. I truly believe your bullet choice is the key to stopping a fight if you ever have to , more than a few thousands of bullet diameter . Your carry whatever makes you feel the safest, but you would be wise to choose a good bullet for whatever cal you decide to carry .

That's it Bea, good bullets and shot placement, all that being said, a handgun is still a handgun.