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Joined: Feb 2002
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Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
A new study from the FBI�s Training Division shows that overall, the 9mm Luger pistol round is the best option for law enforcement handguns, recommending departments shouldn�t switch their side arms to larger rounds considered by many to be more lethal.
Based in a combination of factors, including so-called �stopping power,� weight and availability, the FBI study shows that the 9mm round penetrates far enough, allows for shooters to carry more rounds, and is more widely available and less expensive than alternative rounds like the .45 ACP or .40 Smith & Wesson. �Most of what is �common knowledge� with ammunition and its effects on the human target are rooted in myth and folklore. � Handgun stopping power is simply a myth,� the FBI said in its report. �There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto.�
The study � which was concluded May 6 but has just been leaked online � comes as the U.S. military is considering a new handgun to replace its decades-old Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and some law enforcement agencies are debating whether to outfit their officers with heavier rounds. The findings may also help civilian gun owners decide which handgun to purchase for self defense and concealed carry.
Arguing �stopping power� only applies to shots to the central nervous system (the head or neck), the FBI says modern 9mm Luger ammunition retains most of the ballistic characteristics and penetration power as its larger-caliber brethren, but is easier to control and leads to more accurate shots.
The study shows most law enforcement shootings result in only about 30 percent of the rounds hitting their target.
�The Ballistic Research Facility has conducted a test which compares similar sized Glock pistols in both .40 S&W and 9mm calibers, to determine if more accurate and faster hits are achievable with one versus the other,� the FBI says. �To date, the majority of the study participants have shot more quickly and more accurately with 9mm caliber Glock pistols. The 9mm provides struggling shooters the best chance of success while improving the speed and accuracy of the most skilled shooters.�
So when the skill of the shooter � with many agencies and even civilian shooters unable to train on a consistent basis � is a factor, there�s no shortcut in shooting a larger-caliber round.
�While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance,� the study says. �Given the above realities and the fact that numerous ammunition manufacturers now make 9mm Luger service ammunition with outstanding premium line law enforcement projectiles, the move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.�
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 34,261 |
I'm happy to hear that as it means more .45 Auto for me. Seriously, during the ammo shortage I could always find .45 Auto hardball on the shelve. Not so with 9MM.
Don't vote knothead, it only encourages them. Anonymous
"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups." Anonymous
"Self-reliance, free thinking, and wealth is anathema to both the power of the State and the Church." Derby Dude
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,623
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,623 |
Should we now expect a flood of used handguns in the market? I could use a nice, traditional 1911 to go with my 1911 in 9mm, LOL.
I don't question their findings, but I do know that there's fact and then there's opinions and there's a very grey, fuzzy line between them.
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,876 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 21,876 Likes: 5 |
They will be wrong. The 45 ALWAYS blows a man clean off his feet. Even if one misses.
Parents who say they have good kids..Usually don't!
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044
Campfire 'Bwana
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OP
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 32,044 |
A Doe walks out of the woods today and says, that is the last time I'm going to do that for Two Bucks.
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,623
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,623 |
Also, in Texas nothing will change. The LE folks down there like when the media ask why they shot the 45 in incident X and being able to tell them "cuz they don't make a 46!".
Last edited by NTG; 01/06/15.
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,171 Likes: 6
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 17,171 Likes: 6 |
Yawn.
I bet their srt team is switching as we speak. Right.
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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 16,000 |
every time i hear of the 9mm vs. .45acp debate, given that i do like the 9mm, it's you got a 300lb former defensive guard about the size of a lowland gorilla wanting to rip you apart, which one would you rather have?
THE BIRTH PLACE OF GERONIMO
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
Every time I read advice from the FBI I laugh my balls off and the pavement gets cracked.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,525
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 8,525 |
every time i hear of the 9mm vs. .45acp debate, given that i do like the 9mm, it's you got a 300lb former defensive guard about the size of a lowland gorilla wanting to rip you apart, which one would you rather have? Trick question!! No guards on defense.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,150
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,150 |
Wasn't it the FBI that said North Korea was definitely behind the Sony Hack??
Over the 16 years I did federal investigations, I didn't find the FBI to be particularly adroit. We'd be forced to brief them on cases that they'd take over once we'd proven them.
"It's a source of great pride, that when I google my name, I find book titles and not mug shots." Daniel C. Chamberlain
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Joined: Jun 2005
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 13,827 Likes: 1 |
I like many different handgun calibers and many different types of handguns. Some of the many arguments, and conclusions as to what is superior or not, are interesting, and even informative, but make no difference to me as to what I am comfortable with, for whatever purposes I choose - within reason.
I don't think this latest FBI ballistic study is going to have any more penetration than the 9MM round already has, as regards to what so many already believe anyway.
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Joined: Jul 2011
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 23,453 |
There's a key point in that study that defines it all. Hits matter. You can't miss fast enough to win, so go with what you can hit with first. If that's a 9x19, great; it'll work. Ditto a .40, or a .45. No sense carrying a .45 that you can't shoot, vs a 9 that you can, based upon "stopping power". You have to hit first.
America needs to understand that our troops are not 'disposable'. Each represents a family; Fathers, Mothers, Sons, Daughters, Cousins, Uncles, Aunts... Our Citizens are our most valuable treasure; we waste far too many.
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Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,664
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 12,664 |
In 1986 the FBI blamed the 115gr 9mm Silvertip bullet and said use the Winchester 147gr target bullets which BTW were not designed to expand. Then the FBI said the 10mm is the way to go. Then the 40 S&W and now back to the 9mm.
The Karma bus always has an empty seat when it comes around.- High Brass
There's battle lines being drawn Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,623
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 2,623 |
There's a key point in that study that defines it all. Hits matter. You can't miss fast enough to win, so go with what you can hit with first. If that's a 9x19, great; it'll work. Ditto a .40, or a .45. No sense carrying a .45 that you can't shoot, vs a 9 that you can, based upon "stopping power". You have to hit first.
Exactly, and some need all the chances they can get, hence the 9mm. I have a LE buddy that can hit kill zone fairly well with his issued G19 at 50 yards, but tells me that many of his fellow LEOs that are fairly poor shots, and can never keep up with him once the distance increases. He's scary good with his "play"/personally modified pistol.
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,084 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,084 Likes: 2 |
A new study from the FBI�s Training Division shows that overall, the 9mm Luger pistol round is the best option... Hmmmmm, and what do you suppose the highest priority of the Training Division is?
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,084 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,084 Likes: 2 |
Is there a Forensic Division? Do they have any input here?
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,084 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 19,084 Likes: 2 |
I'm a 9mm fan myself, but this seems a little bit agenda-driven to me.
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,669 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,669 Likes: 1 |
Where ballistics are concerned I personally think the FBI has been spot on for at least the past 20 years. Ever since they developed their criteria, they have been very on track. I very much like their criteria and I consider it to be very relevant. I personally don't see anything "new" in this latest report. Dr. Fackler has been saying that there's no difference in common combat cartridges for the past 20 years. Since 124 and 147 grain 9mm loads all meet the FBI's criteria these days, what they're saying makes sense. You get more ammo, it's easier to shoot well, and it's less abusive to the gun vs. the .40; makes sense.
Not that I'm giving up my LW Commander anytime soon...but I pick that for the gun, not necessarily the cartridge.
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Joined: Oct 2004
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,669 Likes: 1 |
Is there a Forensic Division? Do they have any input here? Ballistic research has always come out of the training division.
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