Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns Case Closed: FBI Says 9mm Is The Best Pistol Round

Forget that #4 I'll take 000 buck

What type of hard barier penetration are you referring? Speed penetrates steel better than heavier slower projectiles.

The old school 'widow maker' was the 158gr LRN at about 750 fps. Six in the gun.

The modern 147 gr 9mm at 950-1000 fps, or the +P/+P+ versions at 1100-1175 fps. Fifteen-plus in the gun.

I think there's a significant difference there.

The big diff is that the military can not employ HP's but only FMJ overseas (sans some covert ops).

In this case the 9mm blows and the 230 45 ACP round are clearly superior.

FBI should let the girls qualify with a 22 rimfire.
After all they are only shooting paper targets.
If they are tasked to engage Black Panthers with AK-47's they can always double tap or wait until backup arrives.

All else being equal, that is correct, and maybe the faster bullet does penetrate better on steel. But this is a discussion about the FBI's criteria and using their testing protocol 124 grain +P and a 147 at 950fps, it seems the barrier penetration is about the same...or not different enough to lose any sleep over.

Their penetration testing isn't about absolute penetration, but meeting minimum standards for penetration and expansion. Given their criteria the two rounds tend to come out about the same. Maybe with different criteria the results would be different. Or perhaps if the steel were thicker, or more sheets, then perhaps the +P loading would come out markedly ahead.

My recollection is that standard pressure 124's only had problems when subjected to the auto glass portion of the testing. Standard pressure came close, but not quite. +P put the round over the top.

147 grain bullets have always met the requirements for penetration, but have been marginal at best on expansion until more recently.

Understanding, the FBI is returning to the 9mm because they find it fits their needs best when all factors are weighed. So some of the factors they use may not be important to you or I, and therefore would lead us to choose something different.


Here's a snippet from there test criteria:

Test Event 1: Bare Gelatin The gelatin block is bare, and shot at a range of ten feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the block. This test event correlates FBI results with those being obtained by other researchers, few of whom shoot into anything other than bare gelatin. It is common to obtain the greatest expansion in this test. Rounds which do not meet the standards against bare gelatin tend to be unreliable in the more practical test events that follow.
Test Event 2: Heavy Clothing The gelatin block is covered with four layers of clothing: one layer of cotton T-shirt material (48 threads per inch); one layer of cotton shirt material (80 threads per inch); a 10 ounce down comforter in a cambric shell cover (232 threads per inch); and one layer of 13 ounce cotton denim (50 threads per inch). This simulates typical cold weather wear. The block is shot at ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the block.
Test Event 3: Steel Two pieces of 20 gauge, hot rolled steel with a galvanized finish are set three inches apart. The steel is in six inch squares. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of steel. The shot is made at a distance of 10 feet measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of steel. Light Clothing is one layer of the above described T-shirt material and one layer of the above described cotton shirt material, and is used as indicated in all subsequent test events.

The steel used is the heaviest gauge steel commonly found in automobile doors. This test simulates the weakest part of a car door. In all car doors, there is an area, or areas, where the heaviest obstacle is nothing more that two pieces of 20 gauge steel.
Test Event 4: Wallboard Two pieces of half-inch standard gypsum board are set 3.5 inches apart. The pieces are six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and and placed 18 inches behind the rear most piece of gypsum. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front of the first piece of gypsum. This test event simulates a typical interior building wall.
Test Event 5: Plywood One piece of three-quarter inch AA fir plywood is used. The piece is six inches square. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the rear surface of the plywood. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the front surface of the plywood. This test event simulates the resistance of typical wooden doors or construction timbers.
Test Event 6: Automobile Glass One piece of A.S.I. one-quarter inch laminated automobile safety glass measuring 15x18 inches is set at an angle of 45� to the horizontal. The line of bore of the weapon is offset 15� to the side, resulting in a compound angle of impact for the bullet upon the glass. The gelatin block is covered with Light Clothing and placed 18 inches behind the glass. The shot is made at a distance of ten feet, measured from the muzzle to the center of the glass pane. This test event with its two angles simulates a shot taken at the driver of a car from the left front quarter of the vehicle, and not directly in front of it.
Test Event 7: Heavy Clothing at 20 yards This event repeats Test Event 2 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the gelatin. This test event assesses the effects of increased range and consequently decreased velocity.
Test Event 8: Automobile Glass at 20 yards This event repeats Test Event 6 but at a range of 20 yards, measured from the muzzle to the front of the glass, and without the 15� offset. The shot is made from straight in front of the glass, simulating a shot at the driver of a car bearing down on the shooter.

Not to mention a very modern JHP vs. a very antiquated RNL.

Interesting, especially since the dhs just bought 10 billion 40 S&W rounds.

For me with todays bullets:

9mm 115 TAC-HP's @1250 fps.
40 S&W 140 gr TAC-HP's @1250 fps.
45 ACP 185 gr TAC-HP's @1175 fps.

Don't think I'd know [read care] the difference in being hit with any of the three so loaded.

I guess now they will need 10B 9mm rounds, and can destroy all that 40...

But of course. lol

Laughin' here...

... since I just re-invested in the .40 S&W handgun craze, I might have to try to acquire some of that "surplus" DHS ammo...

The government can't sell p*ssy at a profit, they waste more than they embezzle from taxpayers and we give a damn what cartridge they choose to issue their agents??? Seriously, the government is the root of all evil until it's time to arm ourselves? Am I the only one that sees the irony here???

If they randomly picked a round that'd make sense. But nobody ever accused you of making sense.

They don't randomly do anything. Actually, the way they do everything is the opposite of random. They very methodically decide what stupidity to do next. Have you ever actually read a bill? Does not doing things randomly automatically lend it credibility??? You still think a government that can't make money running a brothel should pick your next self defense tool??? You sign up for Obamacare too?

Nobody ever accused you of not being a douchebag but I try to give you the benefit of the doubt........sometimes.

What part of that rambling, incoherent diatribe has anything to do with the FBI evaluation self defense ammunition?

Why did they pass over the .357 Sig ? Lot of state highway patrols use it?
Locally we've seen several LE shootings with .40S&W that the "shootee" lived to sue...

What part of, "why do you trust the government to choose your self defense tools" do you not understand??? In five years, their position will change yet again and for what unforeseen political reasons? Has no one actually examined the criteria by which they make their decision? Just like all the dumbasses that look to the heavily flawed, limited and outdated USFS study to choose their bear defense weapon, it makes no sense to me and requires more than a little blind stupidity. I'd rather use my own judgement and choose what is the right tool for my own personal needs than to blindly and stupidly follow any government entity. Does the following, which is an admission that their agents are not trained well enough to be effective with anything larger than 9mm, apply to one and all???

"So when the skill of the shooter � with many agencies and even civilian shooters unable to train on a consistent basis � is a factor, there�s no shortcut in shooting a larger-caliber round."

Try addressing the actual substance of my post, rather than just slinging juvenile insults. I'm immune to the insults of anonymous morons on the internet.

Because with modern 9mm ammo, the 357 Sig has become irrelevant. A large majority of state agencies who were early adopters are dropping it for the 9mm, including Texas DPS, the earliest and loudest supporter.

The Sig round is loud, obnoxious, and abusive to guns, while offering little in return.

This info comes after the Government buys a bizillon rounds of 40 cal?