Damn men, was bored today, work week done, garden planted, hay rings full, went out to the shop and built a spare load for my Les Baer 45 ACP.

7.0 grs Longshot under a 230 gr Gold Dot in a R-P hull lit with WLP primers, and a col set at 1.240" ran 963 fps av. velocity in the 5" barrel and shot ragged holes at 15 yards with the side of my wrist resting on a sandbag, loads fed like glass and brass was in a neat pile about 10' off my right shoulder.

I'm no handgunner and don't shoot them much, just thought I'd pass this along in case someone needs a good accurate full power SD load, I was shocked at the groups.

I would happily shoot a deer or pig with this load out to 25 or 30 yards.

Gunner

Sounds like you hit a good lick there Gunner. Where did you find that load?

Go up a few tenths to a full 1,000 FPS. Accuracy will still be there.

Yeah Sarge, it's a dandy, went to the Hodgdons website and saw their top load for 230 gr FMJ's was 6.8 grains Longshot, noticed how low the pressure was, so just rounded it up to 7 grains even and went to the chrono, damn, 963, okay, loaded 5 rounds at 7 grains and checked for consistency, extreme spread was a bit over 20 fps, I'll take that in a handgun.

JWP, man I hate to chance it, a half a snuff can sized ragged hole dead over the bull sure is nice, I did have my 'Smith put all new springs in that gun awhile back, iirc it has a 18# recoil spring.

Edit to ask, I don't have a buffer in this pistol, do you think a full 1000 fps will batter the frame?

I never ever use those buffers and I’m shooting 45 Supers out of my Les Bear and it isn’t lacking on accuracy. I shot and big rat yesterday at about 30 yards. I’m useing a Wilson Flat wire recoil spring in mine. I’m shooting 185’s at 1300 plus and 230’s at 1100 plus.

10-4 JWP, Thanks.

Forgot to mention these Gold Dots are the SB design, the hollow point opening is a bit larger, but with a much shallower hp cavity than the standard design, meaning they will still expand plenty wide enough, but have much more bullet shank left after expansion, less of a shirt button effect after expansion that the standard Gold Dots have.

So who makes a bullet mold that will drop a 250 gr LFN or SWC that will function and feed through a 45 ACP? I've been thinking the 45 is a reasonable carry gun with 250's @ 1000 fps from a 45 super. I just don't want to play the game of musical bullet molds to find many that won't function and feed vs. cutting to the chase.

Thanks

Doesn't look like it should, but works in five or 6 different .45s I've tried it in. It's a 265gr Keith plan base seated to 1.200" OAL. Nose t crimp .370" meplat .350" and .700" long (specs from http://beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm ). For reference, 6.5gr Longshot gave me 921 fps at 5 long paces and 70 deg F from 4 1/2" M&_45 and 907fps from HKUSP 4.41" Jarvis bbl and 852 fps from 3.64" Kahr CW45 (latter two at 50 deg F). Not chronoed but functioned fine in Ruger LW CMD, Kimber carry II, and full size Dan Wesson.



Also had good luck with 250gr LFGC from Montana Bullet Works (Real LBT mold according to Veral Smith) https://www.montanabulletworks.com/product/45-colt-lbt-250gr-lfn_gc/

That's a really nice looking bullet Paul, bet that thing will penetrate to next week.

Now shoot that 25 yard challenge blue started.. sounds like a great load. Im sure my 4506 would like it too.. i could probably go even hotter in that tank.. +++P

Is that a standard steel 5" 45 ACP Les Baer with just a spring change out?

Yup, that big ol 4506 may take a bit more heat, I'm thinking the 230's at an easy 950 ought to get it done.

Yes it is a Premier 1 1/2” 5” with a 20 pound Wilson flat wire recoil spring.

Les Baer Longslide, .45 ACP. As gunner stated, those Baers do shoot. 1 1/2" guarantee is not a joke.

I thought my Gold Cup and custom 1911's were accurate until I traded for this one. Shoots like a rifle.

DF

Damn! Nice pistol DF, my LB is ridiculously accurate too, you break a good trigger, the shot will be there, I never get tired of seeing that.

Why not 50-60 yards?

LOL, it's in my first post, "I don't shoot 'em much" I would have to be certain to place a good ethical shot on them.

Judging by the one ragged hole you would place an ethical shot no problem.

You can do it, gunner...

DF

Just made up some test loads in .45 Super using the old Keith .45 AR bullet #452423 that weigh 245 grain in my alloy. I think the listed weight is 238 grains in Lyman #2 alloy.

Hand cycled them through the action and they seem to feed as slick as ball...

Hope to shoot them on Sunday and will let you know how they do...

Bob

Alliant sport pistol is your friend. In several ways

Youinz trying to make a stunt shooter outta me? I'll staple a target to a box at 50 and give her a go!

Thanks ID.

You can do it, gunner...

DF
gunner, this could be your ticket to challenge the Poobs for top stunt shooter....

DF

That’s a beauty!

Thanks, it's a shooter.

I'm trying to find out more about paul105's .45 ACP load posted earlier, looks like it may work well on hogs. I bet it would shoot well in this gun. I wonder if a longslide like this would need heavier springs. The added mass in the slide may compensate somewhat for hotter loads.

DF

Riiiight!

My Les Baer Monolith absolutely hammers any load i feed it whether .45 app +p or 45 super. I don’t run it too hard anymore as I now have an STI 2011 10mm for hot shït but the Baer never seemed to care. It’s as issued except has a flat wire spring in it.

The extra weight makes it very stable and easy to shoot. It meets the 1 1/2” accuracy despite being a commander and thus unavailable to be specs as such.

Super nice pistol there MA, I've learned with my LB, and most recently with my Dan Wesson 1911, I am a better handgun shooter than I thought I was.

Was able to chrono those .45 Supers today...

.45 Super Starline brass
CCI Large Pistol Primer
Home cast Lyman/Keith Auto Rim 452423 245 grains
1.175" LOA
Longshot Powder:

7.0 958 fps 21 fps ES

7.5 1017 fps 34 fps ES

8.0 1056 fps 33 fps ES

8.5 1107 fps 32 fps ES

9.0 1146 fps 38 fps ES (4 were only 10 fps ES)

9.5 1178 fps 11 fps ES

Five rounds of each load. Zero malfunctions. Brass landed 16-18' from the firing point. Primers were not flattened at all but the area around the firing pin strike was dimpled. I am going to replace the firing pin spring with a heavier one and see if it makes a difference.

Competition Electronics chronograph. Distance was 8'.

Gun was a Kimber Stainless Target II 5" with a square bottom firing pin stop and 24# recoil spring with a shok-buff. Barrel has a fully supported chamber.

Fired 10 rounds into a paper plate at 15 yards...made about a 3" group with the 9.5 grain load.

Thank you for that Chrono data. Sure makes the 45 auto a hard hitter

I ran some plain old 230 Ball reloads through the gun that clocked 875 fps and it cycled every time. The brass stacked in a neat pile about 3' off my right ankle...the recoil was also "subdued" compared with running the stock, I believe, 16-18# spring and original beveled firing pin stop..

So now I am thinking... The 1911 as presented to the US Army originally had a square bottom firing pin stop. The Calvary asked if hand cycling of the initial round from the magazine with the slide and hammer down could be made easier for a horse back rider. That is why Browning beveled the firing pin stop....and maybe even a lighter main and recoil springs?

As has been proved the 1911 can easily handle high pressure cartridges like the 9x23 Winchester, 10mm, .40 Super, .45 Super and .460 Roland with in most cases nothing more than the installation of a flat bottom firing pin stop and higher poundage recoil and main springs. So did the Army wooseafify the 1911 to make it easier for their horse back rides to handle and shoot at the expense all this time of more recoil due to lighter springs and the mechanical advantage of the beveled firing pin stop...

Some of the posters over on the 1911 Forums reload standard .45 ACP brass to just short of .45 Super velocities doing nothing more than changing the springs and putting in a square bottom firing pin stop...just like one would for a 10mm or .45 Super.

So maybe the 1911 SHOULD come from the factory with a square bottom firing pin stop instead of a beveled...?

And ya gotta wonder why Colt doesn't even bother putting a square bottom firing pin stop on their Delta 10mm even though their guns have a reputation of being beaten to pieces with real 10mm loads.... Corporate Stupidity....

Good stuff there RJM, yourself and JWP bout have me convinced to 'Super' my Les Baer.

gunner, who you gonna get to do that work.

Les Baer is an awfully nice gun to start messing with...

I'd have to think about doing a "Super" conversion on my Les Baer Long Slide.

DF

Put a 20 pound Wilson flat wire recoil spring and your good to go. That’s all I did to my Les Bear

i went on the hodgden online website, and compared 230grain in the 45acp to the 45super. per their load specs you ain't getting that much more which seems odd.

230’s in the art Super should be about 1100 FPS. Hogdon Super data really isn’t anything but 45 ACP +P data. The Super should run around 27,000 to 28,000 PSI.
THE 460 Roland should run around 38,000 PSI.

That is the single worst way to try to make a 1911 handle heavy loads. Especially on a nice gun like a Les Baer.

You can keep the stock recoil spring in there, but install a flat bottom firing pin stop and heavier mainspring; the gun will run smoother and won't beat up the barrel locking lugs, and it'll handle heavy loads better.

No it’s a good way and works perfectly. I know a hell of a gunsmith that thinks it works very well with the 20 pound flat wire recoil springer.

If I do it, an old retired cranky Mil/Swat/Sniper buddy of mine will do the spring swaps, you bring him a Colt, old Winchester, 98 Mauser or FN anything and you get moved to the front of the line ;]

Agreed, my +P load with 230 gr Gold Dots at 967 fps fall right at the top of Hogdons Super data, with an old all steel 5" Springfield trophy match I sent 230 gr fmj-fp's to an even 1200 fps in Starline 45 Super brass with the correct spring kit, never a hint of trouble, buddy liked it so much he left me with some green and took it home, brass, loaded fmj's and all.

I need to find that thread BSA, my new Commander sure likes the +P Gold Dot load, less than a snuff can sized group for 16 rounds is plenty good enough for me at a braced 20 yards, it wouldn't function at all with standard pressure factory 230 ball, it must have a hell for stout spring.

Some of those loads are in the 10mm range. I like Longshot in that round, as well.

180 and 200 gr at 1,200 fps out of my Glock m-40, which is a long slide m-20 in 10mm, this one with a RM-06 reflex sight.

DF

45 Super will do 1100 plus or minus with 230’s and 1300 pus or minus with 185’s

Did you hit the wrong number with the 285’s? 1,300 would be pretty fast with such a big heavy bullet.

DF

Definately hit the wrong numbers. Corrected above.

Longshot as well as power pistol is good stuff DF, I love 'em, and be damned to the it's too loud, too much flash pansies.

When a man finds a powder that provides accuracy and runs his gun 100% right, he'd be wise to stick with it.

I guess they all “quiet” once the hearing is gone...😢

DF

LOL, it's all good, no powders are quiet, and none don't flash like hell in the dark, guess if you need to place a precision hit, close your dominate eye, if not, lite it and keep it lit so you can see.

Plenty of powders don't flash much in the dark, like some of the Accurate flash-inhibited powders for example. Power pistol is great in the 45 +P loads, but there's no denying that it flashes a lot.

Be-86 was introduced to be equivalent in performance to Power Pistol with less flash, and it seems to do just that.

In my testing it is, for all purposes, identical to PP by volume. Charges thrown with the same measure setting produce similar velocity...that's not a recommendation, just an observation.

Not taking advantage of the benefits of a full-profile FPS is missing an opportunity...not to mention being irreverent to the original JMB design...

Yondering and Boogaloo, I know what you guys are saying, and I suppose any reduction in flash may help, But, many, many moons ago a small group of of us were in a VERY dimly lit loud room, we were hit with differing levels [lumens] of light, ANY direct hit in the eyes and you were screwed, blued and tattooed.

The guys would hit us, blind us, then run around and touch us on the shoulders or top of the head, we couldn't hear or see chit, was kinda funny, suppose someone hit us with a bright weapons light, shut it off, moved to another position, then he turned it back on, we'd be confused, blind 'dead' ducks ;]

Sure, but maybe you don't realize that some flash reduced powders in the right loads can give off nothing more than a tiny orange glow at night? Big difference between that and something like Power Pistol or Blue Dot, or having a flashlight shined in your face. Having been temporarily blinded by my own muzzle flash once (handgun hunting right at dusk in the woods), I now choose flash reduced powders for anything I might shoot in the dark. It does make a difference; claiming it doesn't makes it sound like you haven't really tried any low flash loads.

Somewhere I have a series of pictures showing the flash from various powders, but am not sure where it is. If I find it I'll post it. IIRC it was about 10mm loads, so not directly applicable to 45 ACP, but it showed a couple powders like AA7 and AA9 with barely any visible flash. IIRC though AA5 on the other hand had a pretty average flash, and of course Power Pistol was one of the brightest and biggest.

If you the kinda guy who makes a "big flash", maybe PP is the way to go...

I have AA-7 and AA-9 for my 10mm. Am using Longshot right now, need to check those two out.

DF

I learn something new every time I log in here, never knew I shot flash suppressed powders, probably burned near a wheel barrow load of AA#7 back in the day, but will wholeheartedly admit, AT THE TIME, I never gave two fresh dropped goat pellets on how pistolas were, or were not flashing, much more important things going on.

Hell yes DF, get you a 30 round Glock stick, and get it lit

I shoot Longshot in my 10 too, cant get the AA powders anymore, AA7, AA9, AA 2015BR, and AA8700 were/are still some of the most accurate powders I've ever used.

Check with Powder Valley anytime you can't find a powder.

Just got a big jug of RL-26 while they had free haz mat...

DF

Thanks for the tip DF, never online shopped for powder or primers due to the HM fee, never knew some companies killed at times.

Sounds like learning what [bleep] hit the fan may like training /grin\

gunner may not want to tell you what he was being trained to do...

Like "don't ask, don't tell"...

DF

Ahh, the life of a simple gentlemanly farmer.

Wow. That's moving

Only those Okie 'dillers can talk about incoming "blue whistlers"...

Dat be way mo better...

BTW, just passed a dead 6' road killed gator on the way to the office. Don't ya know that dude messed up someone's car or truck. Probably hit him at night. His nose was touching the center line with blood on the pavement, his tail not far from the white edge line on an 8' wide highway. Welcome to Louisiana...

DF

Edited to add, my wife said he was gone, they had moved him when she drove by.

One of my friends who was not happy with a Glock 29/10mm decided to build an all steel Combat Commander in .45 Super. We put a package together with a 22# recoil spring, square bottom firing pin stop, steel Les Baer flat mainspring housing and silver three hole trigger to replace the original black composite one. The whole thing was shipped to Accurate Plating who fitted everything, did a trigger job and full satin hard chrome....he had it back in 26 DAYS!

We shot it this morning with 230 Ball, the 245 Keith and some new loads of a Hornady 230 JFP with 9.5 of Longshot that should be well into the 1200s...

Everything ran 100%.

After shooting some more of the 245s through both his gun and my Kimber I am going to drop the load back to 8.5 grains for 1100 fps...if that won't go through a bears skull it is time to stay home...

Bob

Was a standard blue one with a black trigger to start..







10 yards with the 230 Hornady .45 Super load...





230 Hornady and the 245 Keith

Yes much better than back when 👍

DF, 10-4 on the blue whistlers and damn on the gator, bet that sombuck is getting rip on that hardtop grill ;]

RJM, that's a hell of a nice Commander, well done, I'm really liking my new to me 45 ACO Commander.

LOL ld, I still need to apologize for shaking your hand a dozen times at the Tulsa gun show, I knew by reading you here, you were a no BS redneck chit kicking cow man just like me.

My honor gunner ft smith quit shooting my game but when time is my favor I'd travel to share a couple fun times with you 👍

I have a custom full sized 1911 that may be a candidate for .45 Super. It has S&W sights, chrome steel frame, blue slide. Don’t think I’ll try a Super conversion with my Longslide Baer.

I have a bunch of new .45 ACP Starline brass. How hot can I go with that brass without having to buy Super brass?

What changes would my 1911 need for a “sorta” Super?

DF

Just because a gun will run Supers doesn't mean it won't function with standard .45 ACP ammo unless it is lightwight Bullseye ammo...

So just build it just like you were going to shoot Supers and just run .45 +P loads...

Flat bottom firing pin stop, 20-24# recoil spring and a full power mainspring...that is it.

Just watch your standard .45 ACP brass for bulging especially if you do't have a ramped barrel. My friend's gun isn't ramped and with HOT .45 Super rounds there is no bulging.. From what I have read others are getting velocities close to .45 Super but don't reload their brass more than a couple of times... .45 Super brass gets pretty beat up with the velocity the slide is moving..

Bob

Starline 45 +P brass and 45 Super brass are the same thickness, the Super brass is heat treated. They will both work for super loads.

Ah, no, not like you described it anyway. Heat treating brass can only soften it, something most anyone who's paid attention to annealing should know. If anything, the Super brass would be heat treated less than ACP brass to retain more hardness.

45 Super Brass (Large Pistol primer)
0.892 - 0.897 O.A.L.

45 Super* is the same externally as the 45 Auto, but has a thicker web, denser grain structure in the metal, and special heat treat process that enhances the durability of the case. Similar internal capacity as the 45 Auto. Some 45 Super load data was published by Triton Cartridge before they went out of business. *Loads to be shot ONLY in guns modified professionally to handle extreme pressures of this cartridge. DO NOT SHOOT IN STANDARD 45 AUTO!

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Super-Brass/

I wondered why we didn't load up the 22's last summer, thought you may have got busy building fence or something, and same/same on the other.

I was going to suggest you PM JWP, looks like he and RJM have already answered the call.

That being said, I took my Springfield TM to my 'smith for a complete 45 Super spring kit install, he also removed the buffer that was in the pistol when I bought it, I ran Starline 45 Super brass for the 230 gr FMJ-FP loads at a real 1200 fps, hell of a lot of power there, feels like a lite semi auto 44 mag on firing.

Lot of information here...

https://www.glocktalk.com/threads/the-all-new-big-45-super-thread.1593879/

Nice, I saved that link to my favorites box for later reading.

Thanks guys.

A lot of info to consider.

DF

"special heat treat process" doesn't mean one is heat treated and the other is not, as you claimed. It only means the Super brass is heat treated differently, i.e. less than standard brass to retain more hardness.

The funny thing is I think you've made the same claim here before and got the same answer pointed out by someone else.

45 Auto +P Brass (Large Pistol primer)
45 ACP+P, 45 Automatic+P
0.892 - 0.897 O.A.L.

The 45 Auto+P is a strengthened version of the 45 Auto with the same external dimensions. A thicker web and heavier sidewall at base strengthens the case in potentially unsupported areas. This case has approximately 2 grains less internal water capacity than the standard 45 Auto.

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Auto-P-Brass/

In a case with limited capacity, when you lose 2gr water capacity, how much higher do you have to push pressures to offset the lost capacity?
Just to get equal velocities?


A question I ponder every time I hear of heavier cases to handle high pressure.


Heck, military 7.62 supposedly runs higher pressure than 308. And capacity isn't that tight in 308.

I have to believe the lab coat guys figure in the smaller boiler room effect along with the increased powder charges in the overall pressure increase equation.

Yep.

In smaller rounds, powder compaction can be critical. I remember the experiments with .38 Spec, when they seated the bullets farther and farther down in the case and observed increased pressure to the point of being dangerous.

Powder selection becomes even more critical in these low case capacity, high performance rounds.

DF

I have some data on a 1911, and a pretty generic load in .45 acp.

The load is Starline cases, CCI large pistol primers (non-magnum), Berry's 230 grain plated RN, and 5.4 grains of W231. OAL is 1.265 inches

Using default settings in Quickload (with the exception of actual bullet length and weight), I ran a prediction and got a predicted pressure of 16.2 Kpsi and 846 fps. These parameters were 25 grain case capacity and a 1.275" OAL

Actual chronograph results showed a velocity of 830 fps.

After firing, I measured the cases for capacity, and got 27.5 grains capacity versus the 25 listed as a default.

The first change in parameters I made were to give actual OAL of 1.265" instead of the default of 1.275", and predicted pressure/velocity rose to 16.8 kpsi and 852 fps.

The second change in parameters was to enter actual capacity vs default. The Pressure/velocity prediction was 14Kpsi and 819 fps, which is under the actual velocity of 830 fps.

Next was to bump the burn rate of the powder up until I matched actual velocity. That change was from a ba of 3.6500 to 3.7700, at the outer edge of industry-standard 3% variance of burn rate. That resulted in matching velocity predicted by the program, and pressure was just under 14.5 Kpsi.

I may not be dead on, but I went back and entered the hypothetical 2 grain difference in case capacity of the load above and got, at 25.5 grains, a prediction of 16.9 Kpsi and 856 fps, up from 14.5 Kpsi and 830 fps that actually resulted.

A difference of 2.5 Kpsi and 26 fps. I believe this is what you were looking for, I just took the long road getting here.

Note that seating depth has some influence, too.

I know QL is *just* a computer program, but it can be fairly accurate given the right data, to include actual velocity.

I see that I did not actually answer you question, so using the corrected measurements and, let's say 16.0 Kpsi as a benchmark pressure..

At 25.5 grains capacity, velocity is predicted to be 844 fps and 16.2 Kpsi, using 5.3 grains of powder.

At 27.5 grains capacity, velocity is predicted to be 863 fps and 16.0 Kpsi, using 5.7 grains of powder.

At 25.5 grains capacity AND 867 fps, pressure is predicted to be 17.5 Kpsi, using 5.5 grains of powder.

Absolutely.

And the faster the burn rate, the more critical seating depth and uniformity of charge from round to round becomes.

Mainsprings...

For you guys running 1911s in .45+P, .45 Super or 10mm with full loads...what weight mainspring are you running...or just using the stock one..

I have square bottom firing pin stops and 22-24# recoil springs but and still getting quite a bit of ejected case distance...

Thanks...Bob

I have 3 1911s equipped with a 17# recoil spring, 23# hammer (main) spring, extra-power firing pin spring, and the flat FP stop.

Return-to-battery is not excessively harsh, and case ejection with the load I mentioned in a previous post is 3-4 feet, and +Ps go about 5 to 6 feet.

A heavy mainspring and the flat FP stop slow reciprocating speed quite a bit.

You load some very hot loads. I was a 20 pound Wilson flat wire recoil spring stock mainspring and do not use a squarebottom firing pin stop. With Underwood 45 Super Ammo I get about 8’ ejected bras. I make sure that the barrel lugs are fitted properly to the lugs in th3 slide, I believe this is a key factor.

I'm setting up a custom Govt. all steel .45 for +P/Super loads. I ordered a 17# Wilson flat wire recoil spring kit, heavier firing pin spring and will use the full powered factory main spring (23#, IIRC).

I ordered a square bottom firing pin stop and will fit it. I'm not going with heavier recoil spring based on info from this thread. If rearward slide velocity is slowed, no need to slam the slide back into battery with more power than needed.

I ordered 100 Starline .45 Super cases, already have 500 Starline ACP cases. Will see how much difference the brass makes. The barrel is std. Colt fitted to a Micro bushing. Will be watching for case expansion as the std. Colt barrel doesn't fully support the case body.

I'm going to be shooting 185 and 200 gr. XTP's over AA-7 with std. Fed primers.

DF

That'll be a fun project DF, shoot a pig with that thing.

BTW, iirc JWP says that 45 cal 185 gr XTP is a tough little customer, really good penetration and wound channels.

You have the right idea.

Read through this thread. https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/flat-bottom-fps.2982/

This gun is a Colt 1911 made in 1951. I fit a commander hammer, did the trigger job with aftermarket trigger, stippled the front strap and had it hard chromed. Slide is blue, fitted with S&W sights. You don't see that much any more, was the thing to do back in the '60's. I'll post photos when I get it put back together.

DF

That's pretty much what I did too in various 1911 pistols (both for hot 45 loads and for 10mm). I may have used 22# or 24# main springs, but in the same ballpark anyway.

Like you said, that setup still runs standard pressure ammo easily, but handles hot loads really well. I was pushing certain 230gr cast bullets a touch over 1,000 fps, and the 200gr XTP to about 1,110 in standard brass safely. That's close to what some here are posting for 45 Super loads; the big difference is having a gun set up to handle it.

The recoil spring weight really does very little to affect locked time in a 1911. It's become popular because it's one of the only options in striker fired pistols, and it's an easy change, but it's not nearly as effective as a FBFPS and heavy mainspring.

The best way to make sure the slide and barrel aren’t unlocking prematurely is to make sure the barrel and slide locking lugs are mated properly.

My smith doesnt like the flat bottom firing pin stops and neither does this Smith.


Joe C
Joe C
Custom Pistolsmith
Sponsor
2,487
Sep 11, 2011
grainfed said: ↑
Joe C.........

Very curious to read your reasons why you would leave the FPS alone.....?????

tw
TW,

I would be glad to talk to you about is privately sometime if you would like. Feel free to give me a call anytime. Oh heck, nevermind...I'll just type out some of my thoughts for ya'll to mull and give your feedback about...

It's my opinion, based on observations, that it is better to control recoil by using the springs rather than alter the mechanical attributes. For one thing, it is possible to crack the hammer, depending on the type of hammer, if you use the flat FPS which as you can imagine can cause all kinds of problems (I have seen this happen). You also risk inducing failures to feed by using the flat FPS because you are mechanically impeding the rearward travel of the slide in such a sudden manner.

By asking the slide to overcome the spring weight AND flat FPS from a dead stop you are unnecessarily causing a delay that does not need to be there. This can also affect the speed of getting off a double tap as the slide has now been delayed (one of the reasons open guns often have the FPS filed at an aggravated angle forward) . If the gun is sprung properly it has been my experience that you get the same or better results as using the flat FPS without slowing down the action of the gun and potentially damaging something. But again, it's just my opinion...it seems that much of this has been forgotten or pushed to the wayside in the pursuit of the "quick fix" for recoil by using the flat FPS.


https://www.1911addicts.com/threads/flat-bottom-fps.2982/

That smith must be talking about light target loads, or else he completely missed the point. The entire reason for changing to a FBFPS is to cause that delay, that does need to be there for hotter loads. That's the whole point.

From his writing it also sounds like he's never actually compared ejection distance with different springs to see how little effect it really has. The ejection distance is directly related to slide speed.

The fact is there are plenty of smiths out there, and manufacturers too, who have their own opinions on how to do something without really having the facts to back it up, so they make up a theory. What you've posted is a great example of that.

This part is funny too. It seems he's forgotten that the 1911 was originally designed to use a flat bottom firing pin stop.

My gunsmith just told me he thought the Speer Gold Dot was even harder than the XTP. His idea was the Gold Dot may penetrate better on pigs, the XTP penetrating and expanding on WT's.

Just another opinion, but this guy is pretty sharp; he's a retired SWAT sniper and trained armorer.

He just fitted my Glock 40 MOS with tall Supressor Trijicon sights to co-witness the Trijicon RM-06. Those sights do make finding the red dot a LOT faster.

DF

I've shot feral pigs at 3 - 5 yards with 9mm 124 Gold Dot and they ricocheted off of the skull. 45 ACP 200 gr. XTP's penetrated and made a hole the side of a golf ball in the skull.

Those experiences are why I carry a 45 with 230 grain HST or Ranger T's and just cannot bring myself to trust a 9mm.

Phil killed a big bear with his nine, but he had it loaded to penetrate, Buffalo Bore or similar, IIRC.

But, like you, I would pack my .45, leave my nines at home.

DF

This reply indicates that you did not read the link, and the link has more replies from him and that subject is covered. You ignore all negatives and act like you are the end all be all when it comes to 1911’s.

I know that Bullets change over time without the customer know, but I can assure you that the one that I have shot in 45 ACP the Gold Dots were softer and expanded+wider that the XTPs. The Hold Dots aren’t the same across calibers, I have a 158 grain gold dot fired from my 357 mag at 1400 FPS that has zero expansion and the only indication of firing is the rifling marks.

Yondering, my gunsmith doesn’t use or recommend useing flat bottom firing pin stops and I trust him explicitly, but you not so much, plus I don’t like your condescending replies.

After looking at the Buffalo Bore site I decided to tone down the .45 Supers a bit.

255 Lasercast .45 Colt bullets with 8.0 grains of Longshot:

1063 from a 5" Kimber
1036 from a 4.25" Colt Combat Commander

Buffalo Bore lists these as 1075 from a 5"...



230 Hornady FMJ-FP
Longshot powder

8;0:
980-5"
943-4.25"

8.5:
1019-5"
974-4.25"

9.0:
1086-5"
1034-4.25"

9.5:
1115 5"
1069-4.25"

Buffalo Bore lists these as 1100 fps from a 5"...


The 245 grain Keith was not tested today. It was running 1178 with 9.5 grains of Longshot. I was surprised, but should not have been, that the 230 Hornady didn't clock over 1200. Apparently the shorter bearing surface didn't compress the powder like the Keith did so there was less pressure. That bullet is also going to just get 8-8.5 of Longshot in the future.

Extreme Spread for each of the loads were under 35 fps...accuracy was very good. I shot 5 of each load standing at 20 yards. Considering the sun was at 2:00 o'clock right in my face and the target boards were in the shade I was happy with the groups...

255 SWC




230 Hornady

All in the vitals.

Your loads are now in the 45 Super territory, you will be very happy with the performance

The pics & data on penetration on both those bullets, in several weights, would tend to say that your "gunsmith" doesn't really know what he's taking about, or is badly out of date.

Ammo Tests

Couple of other notes: 16 lb recoil spring weight was original 1911 standard; 23 lb weight is standard mainspring; original 1911 configuration had a flat bottomed FPS & was eventually beveled, as I've been told, due to soldiers complaints about difficulty in racking the slide to get the gun into action as their carry mode was empty chamber, hammer down. Don't know for sure if that's fact or fiction.

MM

Seems it would have serious fangs. My Commander with hot loads in 45 ACP bites.

My 45 Super is a Government model. And, it is a joy to shoot. I run 200's @1200 fps.

What 200 gr. bullets do you like?

DF

Good info, thanks for posting. I saved that study for reference.

You're right, the XTP 185 penetrated better than the 200 XTP or the 230 XTP, and better than any Gold Dot. 180 XTP is one of my favorites anyway.

DF

But the XTP had erratic & generally poor, to no expansion, with significantly more penetration, whereas the GD had pretty reliable expansion & generally consistent penetration, but only about 2/3 of the penetration of the XTP.

Guess it just depends on your objectives are with any given ammo & its use.

I don't try to make my 45 ACP's into a 45 Super or 10mm to hunt deer or hogs with as 1911's were not designed to consistently handle rounds with the MAP of the Super or 10mm, so I'm quite satisfied with the performance of Federal HST's & Speer GD's as carry ammo in my 1911's.

If I want a hunting pistol, then a 41 or 44 mag fills the bill for me.

MM

I have been using the Oregon Trail Laser Cast RNFP 200 & 250 gr.

Have yet to dispatch an animal with either. They shoot very accurately & cycle great.

The 170 gr. Gold Dot in the .357 mag seems to be a different animal, is a hard bullet, holds together very well.

DF

Yes, there definitely are some differences in performance of the same bullet make in different calibers; I've seen that is several cases more than once.

MM

That mirrors my own experience in testing the XTP and Gold Dot bullets together in the common service pistol calibers.

Like you said, they aren't all the same bullet for every application; as you'd expect for a quality bullet they're designed for a specific performance target at a specific velocity range. The "short barrel" Gold Dots for example, in the versions I've examined, are different bullets than the standard version, and are designed for a lower velocity range. Same applies to those designed for the magnum pistol cartridges, being designed for the most common application of each.

With a +P .45 ACP, 185 Gold Dot or 185 XTP. which one would you select for hogs? I also have 200 gr. XTP's to try. That's assuming they all shot about the same sized groups.

DF

I'd probably choose the 200 grain XTP as I'd prefer penetration as the most important attribute in the case of hogs.

MM

The 185 XTP’s that I’ve got loaded in 45 Super have a harder core than do the 230 XTP’s and the hollow point is not nearly as deep as the 230. The 185’s that I have hold up very well at 45 Super speeds 1300 GPS. I’d certainly shoot a hog with them.

I'm not sure about the 185 XTP, but would lean towards the 200 XTP based on my own experience with it.

I haven’t used the 200 XTP. I haven’t used the 185 XTP in the 45 ACP +P loading but they hold up exceptionally well at 45 Super speeds, they may be a bit hard for normal velocities.

I've found XTP's to be some of the most accurate bullets in other rounds, such as the 10 mm. They are hard and would be good choices for penetration.

I will check out the Gold Dots/

DF

The 200 XTP over a +P charge of Power Pistol has been consistently one of the most accurate loads in all of my 45 pistols, not just the 1911.

I have Power Pistol and Longshot. I'm thinking AA-7 may be a good one with less flash.

As soon as I get the parts installed in the 1911, I'll swap the 550B from 10 mm to ACP and go to work.

DF

Your 'Smith may have been suffering from dyslexia that day, happens to all us old guys.

He's getting there. Retired from SWAT last year.

Seems all my friends are old farts. Now, how did that happen...?

You being the exception, of course...

DF

LOL, you better gas on it, I'm about to catch you!

I've always had nicknames for the bullets I shoot, gold dots-bonded splat masters, XTP's-deep death punchers, Barnes TAC-HP's-buzzsaws ;]

The gold dots have always expanded wider for me and never penetrated as deep as the other two mentioned.

Getting to be an old fart is better than not getting to be an old fart.

Amen.

A lot of my friends are no longer in line for birthdays..

My goal is to stay on the green side of the grass as long as I can.

DF

New life for an old thread.

I recently made some upgrades to my custom '50's vintage commercial 1911: 17# Wilson flat spring, Wilson flat bottom firing pin stop, Wilson heavier firing pin spring, kept the full power factory main spring. I've been shooting +P .45 ACP loads, 185 XTP's with Longshot. Accurate and not that bad to shoot.

The slide was done in the late '60's by a gunsmith buddy, back when S&W sights were the rage. He fitted a Micro barrel bushing, tightened the slide and barrel lock up. I had built the frame unit, using a Commander hammer and custom parts. I checkered the front strap, stippled the part I couldn't checker, sent it for hard chrome. Of course, the trigger is excellent...

It sat in the safe for years, was brought out after the discussion here on +P and Super loads for the .45 ACP. I had been working with my 10mm Glock 40 with RMR optics. This gun is more accurate and the power level is pretty close. And, with iron sights vs Trijicon optics. Of course, the Colt trigger is a heap better than the Glock, even after a Glock trained armorer's best efforts. My trigger is better than his, but this wasn't exactly a level playing field...

DF

I like it Dirtfarmer.

Thanks, Sarge.

Looking back, going with the 10mm may not have been necessary. Taking the .45 ACP to full potential just about does the same thing, even beyond the 10mm, if one goes full out with the Super. The +P is enough for me and this gun handles those rounds without any signs of stress.

DF

Cool old piece DF, you need to strap that one on and use it for finishers on any deer or pigs that may need one this season.

Finisher?
Why not just stoke it up and introduce it to Piggy von Piggerson? 😀

It’ll work solo!

Yep.

I have a Bianchi military type holster and web belt.

Those 185 XTP's pack a punch when you get them moving fast enough. I have some 200's to try, but really like the 185's.

DF


Edited to add, you're right K9. Good porker medicine all by itself and the loads I'm shooting pack plenty of punch. Those XTP's will definitely do the deed.

Well, I read this whole thread. Some good points and a lot of crap.

You .45 Super Boys are tearing your fine 1911 guns up.

Shoot more and you will find this out. Long ago I went that route.

You want a 1911 hunting gun ? Spend $300.00 and do it right.

.460 Rowland.

I’m not planning to push this gun to the limit, not to the Super level, just +P.

I won’t shoot it enough to hurt it.

DF

LOL, I believe you did just that by putting three of my old carry load through a 300 lb Tennessee porker.

DF, the 185 XTP's are tough little basturds, JWP475 has done a lot of testing with them, they even hold up well at 45 Super speeds, they'd be even better at +P 45 ACP levels.

Gibby, I've resisted the temptation to 'Super' my Les Baer, it's just fine as is, 185 Barnes' at 1125, and 230 gr Gold Dots at 965 should get all I need done with a 45 ACP, not to mention the 230 gr Nosler and Hornady FMJ-FP's at 950, those are pretty good little hole punchers.

I'm not messing with my Les Baer, either...

DF

That's good. +P is fine.

But try to shoot more. Make a point of it.

Good

230gr at 900-950fps. is all you need.

185gr. 1100-1150fps. the same.

Hot Rodding is for cars, not fine 1911's. Just say'n.

You're right. They have enough power to do what needs doing without busting at the seams...

DF