I'm a sixgun guy. I like double action revolers better
than single action revolvers for tack driving & general
use.

I have nothing against the striker fire system. I use 2
S&W M&P handguns & have no fault with those two. I even
use a Ruger LCP [DA] for deep carry.

The DA/SA Auto system is something I'd like to hear you
guys voice your opinion on. I chose the CZ 75 to
explore this system & it's the first DA/SA Auto I've
owned.

I like the DA first shot & have no problem with the SA
second shot. I also like being able to manually cock
the hammer for the first shot at a ground hog or crow.

The DA/SA platform I'm using can also be carried cocked
& locked. If I'm hindered from lowering the hammer
after a shot simply engaging the thumb safety renders
the pistol safe to holster or lay down if nessacary.

I'm not trying to beat the drum for the DA/SA platform
but to simply give an assessment after shooting the CZ
75 [PreB] for a couple years.

So you guys chime in on this platform. You can discuss
a certain pistol if you like but the operating system
[DA/SA] is more the opinion I'm looking for.

The CZ 75 was never meant to be carried with the hammer down on a loaded chamber---it was designed and meant to be carried cocked and locked alla a 1911. The double action was a feature to allow for a second hammer strike should the chambered cartridge fail to fire. That's why the originals have no "de-cocking" device. In the the 70's there was a glut of Czech ammo that had very hard primers apparently intended for submachine gun usage. Manually lowering the hammer on a live round is an "iffy" proposition under ideal conditions.

What you're referring to is the traditional double action auto, like a Beretta 92. They are designed to be carried hot, with the hammer decocked via a decocking lever, no manual safety or manual safety left disengaged.

For self-defense, there's really nothing wrong with it, and it's actually a great advantage in terms of safety, since you don't need a manual safety to be engaged (so it's ready to go with one long pull for the first round), and that long first pull on the trigger becomes the safety, i.e., it's not going off unless you actually intended it to go off.

The only drawback is the shot to shot point of impact from first to second and consecutive shots is typically a bit off, absent lots of regular practice on the transition. No big deal, because that first shot is typically going to only be five or six inches low vs all the rest at typical gun fight distances, and an abdomen shot is not an ineffective hit anyway. This pattern can be disconcerting at the range, though, which is why some people don't like it. But, again, with lots of transition practice (decock, fire, fire, decock, fire, fire, etc.), even that can be overcome.

Over all, I like them for the reasons stated above, i.e., it provides a very safe, ready to go, condition for carry, which doesn't require that a manual safety be disengaged prior to firing (i.e., it can be left disengaged when carried, or can even not have a manual safety, such as the CZ-75D models and certain variations of the Beretta 92).

……pretty sure that Gunsite had the same experience as the Chapman Academy----the incidents of negligent discharge is SIGNIFICANTLY higher with da/sa handguns than either sa autos or revolvers…….as you alluded to, they require "lots of transition practice"…..far more complicated protocol and training sequence than any other type of handgun. The "newbies" that have shown up for shooting lessons with da/sa guns were always nerve racking to work with. Experienced hand gunners, not so much.

The comment, "a very safe, ready to go, condition for carry, which doesn't require a manual safety be disengaged prior to firing," reminds me of the Illinois State Trooper that had his newly issued S&W 39 "snatched" by a miscreant who then tried to shoot him with it. Apparently the trooper had decocked but not returned the lever to the fire position and the crook couldn't figure out how to make the gun go off….I guess in that particular case, the gun was safer than anything else he could have been carrying that day!! Other than that…safer????? I don't know.

A couple of noted trainers like Hackathorn and Farnam have opined that they don't think that da/sa guns will even be around in the near future. Adding your agreement that it's difficult to transition from da to sa in rapid fire w/o broad shot dispersement, I can't figure out why any civilian that's new to shooting would choose one when there are so many good options available.
JMO=YMMV

Perhaps someone (not me) who is bound and determined to carry AIWB and doesn't want to risk losing his family jewels, or worse.

PS I carry Glocks, and those IWB at 4:00, but I don't think a traditional double action auto is a terrible choice. Just not my personal choice.

The CZ can be carried cocked and locked and used just like a SA 1911. If needed for some reason, DA is available. There is no downside to that.

….manually lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber is MAJOR downside vs having a decocking lever.

Does a CZ 75 not have a transfer bar?

….the 75B has a firing pin block, but no transfer bar per se……the 75BD has a decocking lever…..with the 75B and original 75, you have to manually pull the trigger while simultaneously manually lowering the hammer with your other hand….then hope that your fingers don't slip. To say that there's no downside to that is…..well…..lots of people have done it for years and years….still it's just a matter of time……

I have a CZ 75B that I had CZ Customs in AZ do a full action job on including new hammer and trigger. I was planning on using it for Production class in USPSA. Even though the double action pull is very nice and the single action is too, I just don't like the DA/SA transition in this application. And, in Production class for USPSA, you have to start with the hammer down. So, after you load and make ready, you're having to lower the hammer down every time and I don't care for that.

Angus does great work and is a cool guy.

One of my main CCW pistols is a CZ 75D PCR. It is DA/ SA with no safety, but has a decocker. Never saw that as a problem.

I wonder does anyone know why at IDPA and all other competition events you don’t see many double/single action pistols. People can talk themselves into anything I guess, but most have recognized the DA/SA krunchintickers are a thing of the past.

for bwing a thing of the past there is still a schidt lpad of LE agencies issuing/approving them

Absolutely, because life is an IDPA match.

My unholstered night stand pistol is a DA/SA my regular carry guns are striker fired.

Situation dictates what I use,


Mike

The DA/SA is unnecessarily complex.

….great gun and no problem…..you just can't carry it cocked and locked like the standard 75.



….because the da to sa transition to date has been unmastered to a level to be competitive with a really good sa shooter.----Langdon's the only one that I know of that's come close.


That

This one double as a mace if you tie a chain to it.

Jeff Cooper once described the traditional double action auto as an ingenious solution to a non-existent problem. The problem, he said, that it was meant to address, was that of having to carry a single action auto with an empty chamber (as militaries tended to require). Cooper observed that this is not in fact a problem, if you merely carry it cocked and locked, and train to flip that safety off while presenting it from the holster. But militaries around the world tended not to permit this mode of carry, thus the "solution" of the double action auto, which permits carry in the ready mode at all times, even by military organizations.

For the civilian, who's free to carry a Browning High Power or 1911 cocked and locked, according to Cooper, one could argue that it was a solution to a non-existent problem, unless you considered the necessity of flipping off a safety before firing to be a problem.

The video that NVhunter posted by E. Langdon hit the nail on the head in regards to a couple of reasons why the traditional DA/SA semi auto has some very desirable features in the CCW/HD type roles.

The fact that the first shot has a long trigger travel as compared to other action types, as well as being able to control the external hammer by placing a thumb over it during re-holster, adds an additional measure of control during this process.

In a previous thread about carrying in the appendix IWB position, I mentioned not being a fan at all of AIWB for multiple reasons, especially with striker fired pistols like Glocks and M&Ps. That said, pistols with exposed hammers and traditional DA/SA designs that allow you to keep your finger straight outside the frame, and thumb on top of the exposed hammer while you re-holster (in my opinion) add an additional element of control during this phase.

Re-holstering under stress is one of those time periods that people don't think much about, but should.

Over the course of a career I have needed a fast and secure re-holster far more times than I have needed a "quick-draw".

While I personally prefer a Glock or 1911 for the consistent trigger pull each time, I would not feel handicapped at all if all I had to choose from were traditional DA/SA designs. A CZ 75 or variant such as the polymer Phantom, or one of the excellent HK USPs, or even certain 3rd Gen S&W autos. There really are/were a bunch of excellent traditional DA/SA exposed hammer guns that would be appropriate for carry.

I agree with every word of what you said there.

I get along fine with conventional DA/SA autos so long as they have a decock-only lever or a safety that can be ignored.

For a single stack traditional DA/SA, this one makes for a pretty darn good carry gun.

It is what I would consider S&W's equivalent of the Lightweight Commander .45 ACP.

Alloy frame, 4 & 1/4" barrel, and 8 round mags. The only thing I don't care for is the light rail. They can be removed, but I have not done so yet.

Plus the TSW guns had frames and slides that were made as matched sets. fitted with oversized frame rails. Mine shoots extremely well for such a short barreled, lightweight .45.

[img]https://i.imgur.com/kM7kwgN.jpg?1[/img]

I routinely run a search for "TSW" on Gun Broker. Most of the time it's ten or a dozen .40s, hardly any 9s or 45s are in circulation. There's actually usually more 356 TSWs than 9s or 45s but that's another story. Those guns were built extremely well and it seems like people are holding on to them. I'll come across a 5903TSW one of these days, but it may take some looking.

I am not feelin the urge to go back to the Walter p38. The old adage make your first shot count because you might not get a second one overrides all the other nonsense here. For a fun gun or a collector sure would love to have one of the old Smith and Wesson’s, for a carry gun it’s silly to handicap yourself by adding difficulty to the hitting process. Anyway many can talk themselves into anything.

...because it is a game that has nothing whatsoever to do with reality...

Bob

Jimmy I felt the same way about a double action revolver when I first started this game. DA is something you can learn but a SA shot is much easier to make.

I'm one of those people that just didn't like the Glocks I fired (2 models) a large part of that was being used to DA/SA pistols. I have seen people have a hard time with the first shot, but I never did.
I'm a fan of the CZ75, but when I went looking for a replacement for my Beretta 92 I ended up with the P-09 (setup in decocker mode). The CZ75 BD model was kind of scarce in these parts.

I would also like to try the PCR like Mannlicher owns one of these days.

How do you feel about high bore axis?

DA-SA pistols are quite popular in USPSA Production Division, which is likely the most popular division. But that’s just a game that measures your ability to shoot accurately very quickly.

Blue,

Would that be for the restrike capability or some other reason? Not a gamer here so pretty clueless about it all.

Could you describe some of those situations where you needed a fast reholster? And would any of them have applied to a civilian situation?

Yondering- anytime you might have to go from Gun In Hand to Hands On.

No, it’s just that the DA-SA guns they use are generally very accurate, can have very good SA triggers with a little work, and are heavy enough to be easy to shoot.

Ah. Thank you.

When I began my LE career, all I was allowed to carry were DA/SA pistols. I grew up shooting rifles and shotguns, but very little pistol. I learned to shoot a pistol using an issued Sig P220. Never thought to have problems with it and I never did.

That might be valid for a police officer, not so much for most of us here as a civilian. Not because it wouldn't happen, but because rules of engagement are quite a bit different.

What was your point again?

I'm a fan of my Sig 228, I'm a fan of my M&P's, I'm a fan of my 1911. DA/SA is not as big of a handicap as the high bore axis...

High bore axis requires more concentration on perfect technique, but can be compensated for by it to an extent. I think the disadvantage of a traditional double action vs either a single action or striker handgun is usually overstated, and it has some advantages over both.

The replies have been great. Thanks guys for taking the time.

Langdon seems to have chenged his opinion since I took a course with him as lead instructor in '94. Back then, he, and all the other E5s and 6s teaching the course were carrying privately purchased G19s, though M9s were available as an issue item.

is there any love out there still for the 92f? clearly not CC-compatible and old “tech” now. but i really dont think a pistola exists that i shoot more accurately than the old girl.

I have nothing against the 92 other than grip size.

shes definitely a chubby gal

Yes & my hands are no where large enough for her & I'm a little small for the CZ 75.

try the new E2 Sig or the legion series Sigs

Guess I've never shot a Sig. I was at there plant once though.