...that with the military, LE agencies and many CC holders going to this round we will hear less and less of the street effectiveness of other calibers and rounds.
Most of the street performance stats come from LE agency shootings and with fewer and fewer carrying "other calibers" how will we be able to compare 9mm to anything other than itself...
Bob
We know that adequate hits to the CNS (with pretty much any caliber/cartridge) usually has the same result. But, since no collection data will ever be able to distinguish between physiological and psychological cessations in mobility, I'm not sure it really matters …. but that's just me.
... how will we be able to compare 9mm to anything other than itself...
Or maybe the outcome will be someone comes up with a better measure of handgun effectiveness using the larger body of 9mm data? We'll have to wait and see.
I carry both 9mm and .45acp depending on my mood. Humans are an interesting breed of animal. They can give up quickly with a .22lr hit, or go down fighting with a .45acp hit. There's no counting on either result. I like the .45 acp because when I shoot at metal plates, they seem to make the plates notice the hits more resoundingly... so if I'm there to impress metal plates, the .45acp is the clear winner.... But I don't feel undergunned with a 16 shot 9mm.
I have always thought "street effectiveness stats" were a very flawed idea. There really isn't a way to be truly scientific.
But to your point...Yeah, I think you're right.
Well, there is a way to be scientific. However, the variables are too many to clearly correlate which is most effective. As well, it is probably foolish to think of a single point estimate for a particular caliber. Instead we should be thinking of a range of accuracy. However, threats to internal validity of studying this issue scientifically should not discount the need to study the issue. As well, most people make significant errors in either over generalizing or having selective observation with such an emotional topic. What we do know is that the data has tended to show that certain calibers which generate sufficient energy and dump that energy within a human target with a well placed hit will provide a reasonably high degree of stopping power. Operationalizing those terms is another hairy bag.
What I think is missing is who brings a handgun knowingly to a gunfight? They are actually fairly inferior to the shotgun at close range and a rifle at most ranges. All that said, if we didn't have this to discuss what would we talk about and why would we ever have a reason to buy a new gun?
I think if a bad shot brings a 45 to a gun fight and a good shot brings a 5.7 or 9 to the fight, the 5.7 or 9 wins and vice versa.
Was that tongue in cheek?
Evan Marshall has been discredited in nearly everything he has done.
Was that tongue in cheek?
Evan Marshall has been discredited in nearly everything he has done.
Evan Marshall is full of BS
if this thread is about how pistol calibers are more alike than they are different then yes I agree, not that much difference between any common pistol caliber statistically. I would take a G17 full of 124 grain HST's over most anything else these days if I had to pick a single gun.
A Glock 17 or a Glock 45 with good 9mm ammo will solve most problems that can be solved with a handgun, I would think.
A Glock 17 or a Glock 45 with good 9mm ammo will solve most problems that can be solved with a handgun, I would think.
Agreed, in the right hands.
I think if a bad shot brings a 45 to a gun fight and a good shot brings a 5.7 or 9 to the fight, the 5.7 or 9 wins and vice versa.
What's going to matter more than choice of weapons or fine marksmanship is the ability to commit, instantly and without moral compunction, to destroying another human being- and to follow through with that until it's done.
Re: the link I posted, I was simply sharing a link that has percentages of stopping a bad guy based on reported data.
I was under the impression that data was factual.
As the OP of this thread I thank you for the link....
I was under the impression that data was factual.
That is not an assumption shared by all, to put it mildly.
IMO, sweating every little detail over caliber, bullet weight, cartridge, etc... is just a complete waste of time.
Be reasonable, don’t fall for gimmicks, use equipment that is well established. So bloody simple! After that, it ALL comes down to the shooter.
You're welcome Bob, I think when you get down to it, you do your research with all available info, and decide what is best for you. If you have confidence in what you carry, it is accurate and reliable, no doubt, just like hunting game, shot placement is key to stopping a threat.
I was thinking today how some folks talk about energy of this round vs that round....and my thought was - just how much energy does an arrow or knife have that cuts? Small KE/FPE.
As a cop I know said once, handgun rounds are different than rifle rounds, as they lack the hydro-static shock as many here know. He said, you are just poking holes in someone from a distance..........when you hear it put like that, well it really reinforces one's need for marksmanship under stress.
What's going to matter more than choice of weapons or fine marksmanship is the ability to commit, instantly and without moral compunction, to destroying another human being- and to follow through with that until it's done.
Much truth, and very well said.
You're welcome Bob, I think when you get down to it, you do your research with all available info, and decide what is best for you. If you have confidence in what you carry, it is accurate and reliable, no doubt, just like hunting game, shot placement is key to stopping a threat.
I was thinking today how some folks talk about energy of this round vs that round....and my thought was - just how much energy does an arrow or knife have that cuts? Small KE/FPE.
As a cop I know said once, handgun rounds are different than rifle rounds, as they lack the hydro-static shock as many here know. He said, you are just poking holes in someone from a distance..........when you hear it put like that, well it really reinforces one's need for marksmanship under stress.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^