I have both and find the 17HMR to be way better. The main reasons are longer range and more explosive on impact. I use it to shoot small rodents and it's a 200 yard gun! The 17 gr bullet generally explodes on impact and really knocks them down. So IMHO it is way better.

The only applications where 22mag is better are shooting heavier bullets in the wind or when you need more stopping power.

I would not consider getting a new 22mag. Its 17HMR all the way. What do you think?

In my honest opinion the 17 HRM is a total waste. That is just one mans opinion.

I can't wait for this one to get going.

Time to put on the popcorn.

drover

It is the right mans opinion.

So what is it about 17HMR that you don't like? It is more accurate, has longer effective range and more destructive on impact. I guess 22mag could be better if you wanted to eat what you shoot and can't manage head shots.

The .17 shoots flatter, but the WMR hits harder. I don't have a WMR, the .17HMR suits me best on prairie dogs, crows and lightweight stuff, but I gotta say I think it's a bit light for coons, coyotes and other mid-sized stuff.
Don't get me wrong, I think the .17HMR is the berries for light stuff, mine shoots great, is way more accurate than it deserves to be, etc. but it doesn't hit very hard.
I MAY end up buying a WMR barrel for my new CZ 455, but I have a Hornet which will do all the WMR does, and more, so it would be just to see how one shoots. However, if I were coon shooting or coyote or bobcat hunting, I think I'd rather have the .22 Mag. I DO think the HMR is plenty for foxes, they aren't built too heavy, and are thin-skinned enough for the HMR to do it's thing.
Why not one of each? Might as well have a lot of fun with them all!

The 22 mag is much more effective on coyotes.

If you load down a 223 or 22-250 you could have the best of both worlds, 22 mag bullet weight and 17HMR velocity. If you use blue dot loads, and buy bullets in bulk they don't cost any more to shoot.

A rifle is like a tool. There are applications for a 22wmr and there are applications for a 17HMR. If I want to shoot paper or crows at 200 yards give me a 17HMR. If I want to hunting for coons give me a 22mag. Neither is better than the other. I just depends on what job you want it to do. I have both and will never get rid of either.

Reggie

I shot two coyotes at ranges from 25-35 yards, broadside with a 17 HMR, they were never found.

22 Mag with Winchester Super X 40g hp seems to hit 4x as hard as the 17 hmr.

For Richardson's ground squirrels, p. dogs, chipmunks, black birds, Crows the 17 hmr is a great round.

+1

But of course the real king of the rimfires is the 5mm remington mag. Maybe someone will announce a new rifle at Shot show in Jan

I didn't realize the .22 mag was less accurate than the .17? I've got two of each and accuracy appears to be directly related to price point. All will provide enough accuracy to wallop raccoons at 50 yards with enough left over for my lousy judgment of distance. Have never considered using them on anything larger. After purchasing a second rifle in each caliber and having apples to apples comparisons per price, the .17 has in fact gained ground on the .22 mag in my estimation.

I still prefer the .22 mag by a small margin. Further, I think its a mistake to pretend either is anything more than it really is. Modest range varmint eradication guns to be used on animals that don't require retrieval 100% of the time.

+1 on the old 5mm RRF being king of the rimfire hill.

I'd LOVE to have a CZ or a heavy-barreled Savage in the hot 5. Until then I'll just have to slum it with my 591M and 592M.

I just bought a Cooper in 17HMR for Sage Rat hunting.

The 17 is just right for these little "rodents"

Also have a 22 Mag. in a Winchester 94-22. It's better for bigger critters.

I like BOTH, for there intended uses, and couldn't have just one or the other.

Virgil B.

Dude, you still around?

Call me.

BMT

Why own a 9/16 wrench when a 3/8 is so much smaller, lighter, and easier to use in tight spaces?



Bruce

IMHO a wise man with a strong point

Hank

I've owned several .22 WMR's over the years and most have come and gone. Everytime I find myself without one, I always seem to think "wish I had a .22 mag."

That said, I ended up buying a S&W 48 no dash model with a 6" barrel and love to carry it when woods walking. I then wanted an accurate rifle so chambered as well. After researching the matter I ended up buying a new Marlin stainless bolt action/tube fed rifle with a laminated stock. I believe the model number is 883S. I installed a Pentax Pioneer 3x9 scope on it with the ballistic plex reticle and it flat out shoots!

I've been teaching my girlfriend to shoot, mind you she had never fired a gun before in her life. On the second trip to the range I took the Marlin and a dozen eggs with me as they do a lot of egg shoots at my club and so have the egg holders on top of the target frames. After teaching her to use that rifle, she proceeded to shoot 4 eggs straight at 100 yards! When that first egg exploded you should have heard the yell she let out!

For a plain ole hunting rifle, I think "minute of egg" is pretty good!

Keith

Even on sage rats, I like the bigger holes and additional "thump" of the 22 MAgnum. On Rockchucks and Raccoons - no contest. Have had several of both, only have a 22 Magnum now. Lower ammo cost as well.

For your intended uses maybe but you are brushing a large stroke and have obviously not shot a lot of stuff bigger then small rodents. I'd suggest keeping it that way. Ever think someone else may have a different application than yours?

Bottom line is the Hummer does have a great niche but it does not include killing larger small game like coons, fox, etc. reliably. Don't tell me yest it can cause you head shoot stuff. That is not a gauge of a cartridge.

The 22 magnum is a better tool overall...

I like both. There is overlap, but they excell at different jobs. I like the HMR for small fuzzies at longer range, .22 mag for bigger fuzzies up closer.

Tom

.22 Mag. If I need more there are other options superior to the .17 HMR. Things being relative in the world of external ballistics there is a slew of options with better numbers than the .17...and cheaper to shoot as well.

I'm not knocking the .17 in general terms, just don't have a need for it.

It's price of ammo. When pay more, for less! I don't intend to get in a pissing match over this. You asked, and I gave my opinion. Nuff said!

Price of ammo has almost no bearing for me. "The store" carries most .17 HMR ammo for $11.97 a box of 50 or $1 more for Winchester. The same store carries my preferred Maxi Mag +V .22 magnum for $12.97. I make the choice based on what I'm shooting at. For jackrabbits and up, the .22 mag hits a bit harder. For ground squirrels, the .17 HMR reaches a little farther.

I can "upgrade" either by setting 'em aside and grabbing the .204. Just depends on what I feel like.

It ain't religion. Or shouldn't be.

FWIW, the Centurian 30 grain ammo isn't nearly as accurate as the original 38 grain Remington/Peters ammo in my Remington 592.

Jeff

I have both , two 17 HMR'S and the 22 Magnum. I have killed maybe ten or more coons with the 17 HMR and they died right there. The 17 is a much better killer if you use the 20 gr XTP and stay away from the 17 gr Vmax even tho i have killed a few groundhogs with the 17 gr and they died instantly. The 22 mag is my choice when you get to animal bigger than coons and foxes . Most people who put down the 17 HMR have never used it or shot anything with it. Accuracy wise the 17 HMR has it all over the 22 mag when you get pasted 50 yards. In my opinion no rim fire is a coyote killer unless it is the only rifle you have, then call them in close and make no bad hits are you will cripple but that happens with center fire also. The 17 HMR is the best round i have ever used for gray and fox squirrels and this is where they really shine. If the 17 Hornady is the only rifle you own then hunt with it but use the 20 gr XTP, if you own something bigger then use it for coyotes.

The 17HMR is a niche round that does it's thing very well.

The 22 Mag is an all-arounder with bullet choices from 28gr to 50gr, in B-tip, HP, SP, FMJ, and snakeshot.

I'm in the 22Mag camp, but let mine go a long time ago. I like versatility.

Mine was a Win Model 94, 22 Mag. Traded it long ago. Dumb, dumb, move.

I like my 17 HMRs, and my 17 HM2s for that matter, but I carry/use my 22 MRFs more often. In the summer, when I am out and about, I often carry a discontinued Rossi 515 4" stainless 22 MRF revolver in a belt holster with 2 loads of snake-shot and 4 40 grain JSP cartridges. When I am Jeeping in central and southwestern CO, I keep a Marlin 982S close by, plus my survival pack that includes a Rossi 515, to shoot targets of opportunity.

I think that, in general, the 17 HMR rifles that I've owned are slightly more accurate than the comperable 22 MRF rifles, but not by a lot. Even my least expensive 22 MRF, a mid-1960s vintage Savage 63M single shot bolt gun, is minute-of-pdog accurate with the right ammo and, thankfully, will shoot the old Remington 22 Special/22 WRF 45 grain lead bullets to the same approximate POA, only about 30 yards closer, if the target is a rabbit for the stew pot. The 22 MRF is the smallest, least powerful, cartridge that I would consider for a survival rifle in the lower 48 and I think that it would be a good choice for a person forced to live off the land if he/she had a Savage 24 combination gun chambered in 22 MRF over 20 gauge.

I have found that the 22 LR to 22 MRF chamber adapters sold by MCA Sports, Ace Dube, in Anchorage, AK, will allow you to shoot less expensive 22 LRs in your 22 MRF revolvers and single-shot rifles for practice, or for shooting small game within 50+/- yards in a pinch.

www.mcace.com

Jeff

DigitalDan: I often think you come with these bizzare-o things you post just to get a rise out of more intelligent folks than yourself!
Well you are getting a rise AND a lesson from me!
Here goes, and pay attention, so in the future when you make your postings people won't laugh at them so often!
I began shooting/Hunting with various 22 "Magnums" back in 1955 - I have owned and shot them all. I still own several 22 "Magnum" Rifles and pistols in fact.
They don't get used much at all anymore.
The 17 HMR so far outperforms the various 22 magnums that its laughable ANYONE is stupid enough to deny this fact!
The speed of the 17 HMR and the flatter trajectory and the ability to shoot straighter in the wind ONLY compliment the enhanced accuracy of the 17 HMR over the various 22 Magnums!
The speed of the 17 HMR's projectiles (both linear and rotational) add a level of lethality to the 17 HMR that no 22 Magnum can even approach!
To date, with my various 17 HMR's, I have killt: Coyotes, Fox, large Porcupines, Raccoons, Rock Chucks, feral cats, Skunks, Jack Rabbits, Prairie Dogs, Snowshoe Hares, large flying Varmints, Ground Squirrels, Weasels and on and on!
I VERY SELDOM have to shoot any of these Varmints twice with the 17 HMR.
Looking back on my extensive experiences with these same class of Varmints and my useage of the various 22 Magnums on them there simply is NO comparison.
The 17 HMR outperforms the 22 Magnums by a significant margin!
Let me relay just ONE recent harvest I made with one of my 17 HMR's.
My friend Jack Veness from Yelm, Washington and I were Hunting Ground Squirrels in a high valley of SW Montana. He was shooting from his swivel bench and I was shooting while standing on the tailgate of my extended cab Dodge diesel truck. I was using the top of my trucks camper shell as a rest for my sandbags/Rifle.
Right in the middle of our shooting up pops the head of a large Badger. He was crouched in his den mouth and looking straight at us with only his head and part of its neck showing.
I thought he will only be there a second or two and I had better shoot. I knew he was a long way off and I held on the crest of his forehead. The 17 grain 17 HMR V-Max bullet struck that Badger in the throat and killed it instantly.
I whooped it up for a moment and grabbed my camera and Leica Laser Rangefinder venturing forth.
Jack and I went out to see if we could retrieve the Badger.
Indeed we could - it was laying on its back in the den mouth stone cold dead right there!
I then lasered back to the grill of my VarmintMobile it read 173 yards!
Add two yards for the length of my VarmintMobile and that is a one shot kill on a BADGER at 175 yards.
The Badger was a large mature Boar and I am guessing weighed 18 to 20 pounds!
I simply could NOT have done that with any of the MANY 22 Magnums I have owned - I know - I have tried!
Pay some more attention there DigitalDan, your lesson is not over!
My friend and I go back to shooting Ground Squirrels with my trophy Badger now resting in a garbage bag in the cooler. About 30 minutes later from the near the same spot ANOTHER Badger emerges from its underground den.
Jack killed that Badger with his 17 HMR Rifle as well. It was about 10 yards closer and was an adult female.
This simply could not have been accomplished with any reliability with the slow projectiles and rainbow trajectory of the 22 Magnums.
PERIOD!
I could go on and on with examples of the superiority of the 17 HMR versus the various 22 Magnums but for now I will let that one example suffice.
I will add this though - I recently posted on this forum my experiences from last spring/summers Varminting. My recent post relayed that I hosted MANY Varmint Hunters at my home this year and Hunted with all of them - mostly for Ground Squirrels, Rock Chucks and Jack Rabbits.
Fully 25 of those Hunters used Rifles and pistols in caliber 17 HMR - not ONE of them brought along a 22 magnum of any stripe!
I am also very close with several men who own Gunshops and they relay this to me (in response to my direct questioning) the 17 HMR arms now outsell 22 Magnums by over 20 to 1 (twenty to one!)!
Maybe everyone else is wrong and YOU are right - NOT!
LOL.
Man, how long is it going to take you to realize when you post your bizarre-o blather that people are going to laugh at you and some will take the time to correct you???
I really got a big laugh out of your bizarre-o land statement where in you reference a "slew of options with better numbers than the 17 HMR"???
Well that "slew of options" does NOT contain a single currently produced rimfire cartridge now does it?
Or are you ignorant enough to be trying to compare centerfire munitions to the 17 HMR???
Sheesh, in either case.
My strong suggestion to you is get yourself out to the range and to the small game and Varmint Hunting fields and get some extended and real world experience with the fine 17 HMR cartridge before you even try to besmirch it again!
Long live the 17 HMR.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Depending upon the bullet energy, bullet drop and weight of the animal hunted each cartridge has its limits. I started shooting prairie dogs in 1952 with a 22 RF rifle. Later I got a 22 WMR rifle that gave me about 50 more yards. When the 17 HMR rifles first came out I got one . I likes what the 17 HMR would do so I had to try out the little 17 HM2. At times I will shoot the 22 rimfire rifles but for prairie dogs the 17s are the only rimfire rifles I use. When I go out after bigger varmints or shooting at longer ranges I like the 22-250 or Swift but for some hunting conditions I can use the 17 Fireball, 17 Remington, 204 Ruger, and 223 rifles. When hunting, I like to be a bit over gunned for the size of the animal and the distance I will shoot them at.

VG, you're the easiest target in the lower 48 so far as I see it.

Someday maybe you'll be less full of yourself and better able to comprehend what people write.

The .17 HMR ain't a bad cartridge and has advantage over the .22 WMR insofar as trajectory. Never said otherwise. Accuracy is where you find it and a lot of HMRs shoot well, but that does not mean the WMR does not. I have one that does fine out to reasonable range, which for me is around 100-125 yards for the cartridge and gun.

When I referred to a slew of alternatives I was not referring to rimfires ya dimwit. Anytime you want to race your beloved .17 HMR against any .17/.22/6mm/.257 cal CF rifle do let me know, cause I'll take that bet is a heartbeat. I could probably meet you in Cody next June. If one hand loads, and I do, the CFs are cheaper to shoot, more accurate and have far better ballistics, both in drop and drift, not to mention splat factor. Oh yeah, range..they got a lot of range...

Having those alternatives available, I see little need for the HMR. That's a personal choice, not a slam on the cartridge. If I didn't hand load I might own one. I do, therefore I don't. OTOH, I have a friend or two that do have one. I don't pizz in their beer and call it Schlitz.

How's your .17 work on hogs by the way?

I'll check back later today for your 1,000 word essay in response.

I'm always amazed that any discussion of cartridges on the Campfire ends up as a put-down of any cartridge that isn't somebody's pet.

Of course, the original post in this thread was guaranteed to start this one off in that direction.

The truth is that the .17 HMR and .22 Magnum are very different rounds, despite using the same basic cases. The differences between the weight and bore-area of their bullets are very much like the differences between the .223 and .280.
So why in hell would their performance be directly comparable?

Personally, I find all the present easily-available rimfire rounds very useful, with niches for each, the reason I own rifles chambered for the .17 Mach II, .17 HMR, .22 Long Rifle and .22 Magnum. And I shoot all of them every year, on various kinds of small game and varmints, just as I shoot a wide variety of centerfires on varmints and big game.

Are you kidding??????

24-HCF is full of narrow minded intolerant people who dismiss the citation of anything that doesn't fall within their, often limited, scope of actual experience. Which is why I often post the following, "Standard disclaimer; "YMMV and since my experience is mine alone, your experience is likely to be different.".". Which is a polite way of saying "[bleep] you if you don't believe what I've posted.".

Jeff

Mule Deer, well said. Different tools for different jobs. I, too am amazed and perplexed about why some have such emotional energy invested in what is merely a pet theory or cartridge or way of doing things. There are things to be dogmatic or emotionally invested in in this world, but cartridges and rifles ain't one of 'em. Of course non of this will stop me from continuing to twist the tails on occasion of those so affected, all in good fun..... Some people are so easily riled up about such that it is a shame to not help get them all worked up. Must be some kind of energy thing for them so I will continue to assist.

John, your comments on this and my reply comined with some of the stuff that has been in recent threads have inspired me to change my signature line after 5 1/2 years and nearly 10,000 posts with the old one. I hope it will maybe help change the tenor of some of the threads here in some way. Maybe my expectations are too high of this small gesture and move, but I want to try.

I like both, but if i could have only one it would be the 17 HMR and take my chances on a coyote if that is what walked into rifle range . The two rifles in my truck at the moment are my Browning T-Bolt in 22 Mag and my Rem 700 in 17 Remington. The 22 Mag i use the Hornady 30 GR V-Max and in the 17 Rem 25 gr Berger Match HP.

I agree 100%. I love my Remington 5mm. I'm really glad I held onto it all these years.

VG made a very determined post. Unfortunately, the .22 WMR wasn't introduced until 1959, so it mostly refutes all else he wrote after "1955".

Maybe he was one of the guys handloading the 22 WRF before the WMR was produced.

Like this WMR handloading is being done now.
http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/apr96reloading.html

Bruce

I see that you like the 17HMR, but you way overstate your case for it and against the 22mag. The 22mag is a pretty decent round and works well. I don't think it has any advantages over the 17HMR, but I will still shoot my 22 mags.

Agree totally with what JB wrote..........Moreover, the 5mm is the best of the lot! Wish I still had one!!!


X-VERMINATOR

Last spring I went on a ground squirrel safari with a good friend who has access to very rich dirt rat hunting grounds..

Like most ranchers/farmers in Central California, he's always considered shooting dirt rats with anything other than a .22 LR as silly. I brought along a .223 squirrel sniper shooting hot 50 gr. BT's, a .22 mag shooting 30 gr. winchester supreme hollowpoints and a .17 HMR shooting hornady 17 gr. vmax's. I let him shoot them all, from "at your feet" to "dude, I can't see that far" ranges.

At the end of the day I had to pry the .22 mag out of his hands.

RL, next time just give him a couple cups of coffee. He'll set it down soon enough and you can avoid the wrasslin' part....

Both work on small critters.
I own both if one goes it will be the 17. On small critters the mag seems more devastating from what I can tell.
If I am going to hunt something coyote size I will use a centerfire anyway.

Far to petty of an issue to argue over anywho. You use what pleases you, and I'll do the same.

+1 very well said.

Horseapples.

Especially that last line of the first quote.

Funny, Funny stuff.

A 17g Vmax will do this to a Kansas Jackrabbit at 180 yards.

I guess he died of sheer fright instead of that nickle sized hole knocked out of his upper shoulder?

.

I have a 22 Mag around here somewhere .....

Not a lot of crittervarmintrodents around here to slay.

If the 22LR won't do the job then I have 223 & up


Mike

Nice picture and great shot jim, somehow it doesn't look like a coyote though. I thought keith said he shot two coyotes in his post and he didn't recover them. I may be wrong but that is how I read it. I've had the same problem with the 17 and so have 2 of my friends, they just don't kill coyotes or larger animals like the 22 mag does. I also agree the 17 is the cats meowe for sage rats and pd's and I guess I'd add jack rabbit to the list at up to 200 yds. After that, I'm swithching over to something bigger like the 223 or 22-250.

B,

My main refute to the post you cited was that last line.
It's good too see that when confronted with evidence you admit that a 17HMR slug does not bounce off of Jackrabbits as well.

I say this about the 17HMRs and coyotes.

Anyone who shoots a coyote inside 100 yards 17HMR and loses that animal-

A) Does not know where to hit a 'Yote with a rimfire for sure drops- i.e. the C.N.S.

or

B) Can't shoot worth a damn..

Period.

In which case NO currently available rimfire load is going to make up for the shooter's shortcomings. There is not a rimfire round made- 17 OR 22 cal that will drop 'yotes consistently with any old hit in the thorax.

Blaming perfectly good equipment for sloppy shooting/bullet placement is the highpoint of stupidity.

Why shoot a 17HMR when the .22Mag is so much better?

once you get past the thrill of the 17hmr, I would prefer a 22WMR to the 17 because the 22WMR hits with more authoriy.

Ditto

Sorry Jim, I still dissagree. I've killed thousands of jacks in Nevada where I grew up. You cannot compare that to a coyote. My friends and I have made good shots on coyotes with the 17 hmr and my friend was at one point going to bash his rifle over his tailgate. He has way more confirmed coyote kills than I do because of the many coyote competitions he partakes in. His count 2 weekends ago was 31 yotes in 2 days. I've seen the 17 hmr's deficiencies first hand and it wasn't due to poor shooting. As I've noticed with some of your posts it seems you dissagree with a lot of people just because it has not been your experience: As we all know everyone's experience may not be the same. Take care, bsa.

CNS on a yote is a very small target and a good way to miss a little and have a wounded animal on your hands. Too small of a target even on larger big game animals. No experienced thoughtful hunter aims for anything BUT the heart lung area of a game animal and if a rifle will not put them down with a shot to that area it is inadequate for that animal. So, if a thoracic hit to a Coyote with a 17HMR is not a dead sure right now killer then it is an inadequate round for such. I have not even thought to try such so cannot speak to it from personal experience (would also choose larger armament) but had to address the really silly statement about CNS shots. A trick shot attempted by or 'braqged' about by the uninitiated or inexperienced excepting from quite close range under good conditions and circumstances. And yes, the Elephant in my avatar was taken with a heart shot. To say a rifle is adequate for whatever animal if it will kill with a CNS shot would make the 22 Hornet an Elk rifle. Silly beyond the pale.

In terms of target size,head shots on coyotes are just as easy as clean thoracic hit on a squirrel or cottonatail rabbit..

My point is, if you TRULY care about humane kills on Coyotes, those are the ONLY shots folks should be taking with ANY currently available 17 OR 22 rimfire. Period.

If you like "runners" than by all means pretend "the Mighty" 22 mag is a 22-250 and fire at will. If you loose most of them in the Sage or tall grass, don't blame the round- be it 17 or 22.

There is a difference between hitting the head, and hitting the brain. Lots of now deceased former elephant hunters know this all too well. Plenty of deer get thier jaws and such blown off by Davey Crocket wannabees every year. If you cannot kill it with a chest shot, get a bigger rifle, period. I stand by my comments. At the origin of the post, the point that was trying to be made was the superiority of the 17HMR to a 22 MAgnum. Now we are to beleive that the intent of this idea this was relgated to brain shots. Not flying so well here.

Sorry, a chest hit coyote, hit by a 40gr HP from a 22 Magnum at ranges of 75 or so yards or less is a very dead yodeler. Won't go all that far either. Longer range - get your 222 or similar. No longer rimfire suitable.

Safariman,

Actually, I am fine with the origional topic of this thread. As a rimfire round overall ,the 17HMR IS superior to a .22 mag. And ,I know all about the anotomy of an animal's skull thank you.

No need to be "Dave Crockett" -just a competent rifle shot. Which many folks in this world are NOT, so they blame their armament.

A 40g bullet at 1,900FPS does not elevate the 22 mag into centerfire level of performance. It is still literally HALF the rifle that the little .22 Hornet is.

Inside 75 yards,if someone feels the need to take chest shots on coyotes with a rimfire, the 22 mag WILL NOT kill coyote 'em any deader than a 17HMR will with 20 grain slugs... Actually, with lung hits ,a 40g 22 mag load won't kill them any better than a 22LR with hollowpoints.

They all produce a holes going in and going out with a runner to be trailed 90% of the time.

No 22-250 "smackdown" with any of them.. Which is why I say and stand by based on experience- that C.N.S. hits are the only way to go on something as large as a Coyote with a rimfire.

Not in a 5 mph wind.

Swampy.


Actually shoot the two rounds SIDE BY SIDE in the same wind conditions.

It's no contest- the 17HMR drifts less. About 2/3s as much.

It's not even debatable to someone who's actually done it and honestly compared them.

BTW, every source of Ballistic data backs this up.

Which makes sense, because it's true.

Well, not exactly. There's a bunch of WMR ammo out there with higher BC than the HMR ammo and the drift advantage of the HMR is not significant when compared to the heavier WMR bullets, say 40 grains and higher @ 100 yards. The light WMR bullets do not fare well in comparison.

http://www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/22rimfire.cfm

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57007

DigitalDan,

I see some higher BC's for .22 Magnum bullets, but they are not started at anywhere near the velocity of the .17 HMR bullets.

Having shot a lot of different .22 Magnum and .17 HMR rounds at various small rodents in the field, here in windy Montana, I have found the .17 HMR to be noticeably less affected by wind. Perhaps this is partly because on a typical summer day of 80-90 degrees (typical for ground squirrel shooting) the 2550 muzzle velocity of the .17 increases to 2600-2750 fps.

Am thinking the drop figures are greater for the 22 mag. also.

Don't have a drop chart, but do know I was out shooting my buddy last year on Sage rats because the 22 mag was dropping way more than my 17HMR.

Would love to see a drop chart if someone could post a link.

Virgil B.

Virg,

Go to this page of Varmint Al's

http://varmintal.com/17hmr.htm

If you go down about 10 charts/graph down, there is a Trajectory comparison charts comparing all the rimfire loads together.

MD, wouldn't argue that the .17 doesn't have better drift numbers but running BCs and published velocities through a calculator that advantage was not something I perceived as significant. The calculated difference is small for the two examples below 100/200 yards. Velocity has an effect to be sure and published BCs are either real, false, estimates or averages. I think Sierra's stuff to be credible and velocities may vary.

Numbers I used for the comparison:

.17 HMR, 17 gr Hornady - BC .125 MV 2550 3.77/15.72" Drift
.22 WMR 40 gr JHP (Sierra) - BC .145 MV 1900 4.65/18.55" Drift
.22 WMR 40 gr JHP (RFC) - BC .110 MV 1900 6.21/24.76" Drift

You are using 100 yard numbers- which means you ARE missing the point of a 17HMR.

From 100 to 200 yards , the advantage to the 17HMR is even more stark.

A 40-50% reduction in wind drift IS significant given the small targets engaged with rimfire rifles.

Jim, with all respect, the drift numbers provided are for both 100 AND 200 yards. Don't know how that's missing a point, truly.

Digital

If the 200 yard figures were there, I sure did not see them. I must have been composing my reply before I saw your edited version.

My point still stands. For the valid data you posted ,the drift difference is very real.

The middle line of 22 mag data is pure fantasy. No commercially available 40g 22 mag load meets those downrange specs. Real world 40g data is about 20% more.

The reason is your BC of .145 for the Sierra CENTERFIRE bullets is higher than that for the real bullet used in 22 mag loadings. The actual 40 slug profiles used in 22 mag ammo are more blunt nosed to meet the OAL cartridge length specs for the rimfire ammo and have a lower BC.

Jim, you need to argue that point with Sierra...the BC is specific to the WMR form and weight. It is also consistent with with several aspects of comparison to include some of the BC information on LR bullets at RFC. At any rate, I don't have an agenda on this, but it's been my experience that few arguments based on extremes get good mileage.

Shoot what you got and enjoy the day.

That's funny, since Seirra does not make 22 magnum ammo of any kind, nor do they supply 40h HP .22 mag slugs to any maker.

What does that have to do with anything?

Like I said in three posts back- the 40g Slugs Seirra makes for centerfire reloading are not the same shape as the slugs actually loaded in 22mag ammo.

The Seirra 40g bullets have a higher B.C. than anything of that weight loaded in a 22 mag due to the OAL constraints of the rimfire round.

Jim, I think we're flogging a dead horse here and talking apples and oranges at the same time. Enjoy your shooting, I'll do the same.

I wonder what .22 Magnum you used in 1955? The Winchester Rimfire Magnum was introduced in 1959 and as a 12 year old I was overwhelmed by the new cartridge. I obtained a Mossberg Chuckster the next year and that really accelerated my groundhog (Woodchuck) hunting career. It has always proved effective to 125 yards but gets a little iffy beyond that. As a farm and general woods loafing rifle for varmints and game up to forty pounds it has been quite satisfactory, and there are available loads for edible small game that don't tear things up too badly.

The .17 HRM for me anyway, has proven to be problematic. I love it for crows as it will reach out to 150 yards, but I have been less successful on the tenacious woodchuck with too many escaping to their dens when shots are beyond 50-60 yards. Because of it's accuracy it is great for squirrels as long as head shots are made, but a shot a little far back will ruin the shoulders.

Since the HRM originated in Nebraska, I always figured it was designed with ground squirrels and prairie dogs in mind. I suspect for this use it is a bit better than the WMR.

For my use I have returned to the .22 WMR, but I am also sure that there is a place for both rounds.

Nicely stated kwII. Do you still have that old chuckster? I was shooting mine the other day with some remington 33 gr. polymer tipped bullets that run 2000 fps and 293 ft. lbs of energy and shooting one hole 10 shot groups (ok less than 3/8" it was a ragged hole). After a while it is just wasting bullets because your not hitting paper anymore .

Thanks for the nice comments. The Chuckster is long gone, replace with a Win. 61 WMR and a CZ with a Mannlicher stock. Those old Mossbergs will shoot!

I'd like to shoot a 17HMR at our Beldings ground squirrels. I can not, however, make myself spend the money for 12,000 rds of ammo each spring. That is in no way an exaggeration (2 cases and 4 bricks last spring). I shoot a sh-tload of squirrels firing my bolt action rifles in single shot mode, and do it with a couple of 22LRs.

I think they have penciled way too much profit margin into their HMR pricing.

So use a 17Mach2 instead,for about half the cost.I use the 17Mach2 for ground squirrels out to over 100 yards,and then switch to the 22 Hornet at 150 yards and more.

I like both. I have two CZ's one in 22Mag and one in 17HMR. Their accuracy potential is very similar both being 1-1.25MOA capable with favoured ammo.

Past 125 yards on small gophers the 17HMR is indeed a bit easier to make hits with. The "Chunking" factor belongs to the 22 Mag with 40HP's however. On Gophers I might use either but prefer the 17HMR for the slightly better long range hit ability. In really thick populations the 22LR gets the nod as it starts getting expensive to feed the other rounds.

For small edible game I like the 22 Mag with 50 grain bullets. It kills without lots of tissue damage though the 20 grain game bullets in the 17 are lots better than the 17 grain VMAX.

For a wilderness gun the 22WMR in a Cricket or Chipmunk is very versatile. More so than a 17 IMO. The 22 bullet really does hit harder on larger game. I wish someone made a light 22 Hornet repeater along the lines of the old Chipmunk but with a 5 round magazine. I bet they'd sell well! I'd get two.

In the meantime I am happy to have both rimfires. If the 5mm Rem ever gets developed with good ammo at a reasonable price; I think it will beat both.

North61, I'm thinking your wish for a light Hornet might be the Ruger 77/22H.

Close but..too big and heavy. I want a 22Hornet repeater wilderness packing rifle at about 3 pounds. I have an M6 in 22H but it isn't a repeater and has a silly 410 with it.

While we are at it give me a 1-10" twist so I can shoot heavier bullets. A 60 grain Nosler Partition at 2200fps would be a great load for edible game and even caribou in a pinch.

Wow I have been following this post its really brought out some interesting points and opinions. I have a few 17s they dont make sense to me but I see guys who have used them WAY more that I will ever that carries weight with me.

Hank

Don't forget to consider the BS factor, anonymous posters making claims for stuff that only happened between their brains and their fingers hitting their keyboards, with an occasional GOOGLE search thrown in for good measure.

Jeff

You might need a long chat with Melvin Forbes...and a bottle of whiskey. Really good whiskey.

I have both 17HMR and .22 mag. The 17 is a good 175 yard crow rifle but beyond that I don't have much use for it. When you get into stuff like woodchucks and coons there's no doubt the .22 mag. is the more effective round.

I've cleanly killed a couple deer, a few dogs, several tame and one wild hog,a few head of cattle, lotsa coons and grinners, and hundreds of tree rats with the 22mag, see no need to try a .17 wanta be centerfire,,,, ya the .17 is a nice looking little round but it lacks in the versatility of the .22mag. oh ya use the solids for tree rats the impact is the same as the hollow points for me, both winchester silver box, both shoot way sub moa.

Several State F&G Departments use, or have used, the Ruger 10/22 Magnums to do herd reduction work. A CO told me that he'd killed a couple hundred whitetail does during the winter when they are herded up using a 10/22 Magnum and Winchester/Olin 45 grain DynaPoints.

Jeff

I never saw the need for the 17 since I have a Model 61 in 22 magnum and a Model 43 in Hornet..both have been well used over the years and are still going strong...

The wind gave me fits with my .17 so I sold it and just got me an ol Ruger 10/22.

Sorry, I didn't bother reading every post to this point but as I see it...........:D

It's impossible to gain killin power buy cutting the weight of the bullet in half. So I'll still say that the .22M has an advantage on critter a little on the large size. In other words the .17hmr is not gonna be a better coon and fox than a .22M. As good? IMO no. But I will state that the .17HMR does seem to be inherently more accurate than the .22M with Savage rifles producing dime sized groups at 100 yards while .22M rifles I've been around having trouble shooting MOA. Been there, done that. Also the flat shooting little round is a definite aid when shooting bitty targets beyond 100 yards.

So if you are a target shooter......17HMR.
If you are after Prairie Dogs, Starlings and Ground Squirrels out to 150+ yards......17HMR.
If you are a ground hog, coon or fox guy out to 100 yards......22Mag.

It's all in what you want the gun for.

CB

You are mistaken sir. The energy released on impact is a function of both velocity and weight. So if you boost up velocity and reduce bullet weight you can still deliver way more energy on target. I have seen lots of ground squirrels hit by 22mag and 17HMR and the latter does a much better job of killing. A large part of this the explosive effect of the 17HMr on impact.

A 22mag might be better in cases where you need penetration into the animal in order to damage vital organs. On the vast majority of small mammals, include coons and fox, a 17HMR will be more effective.

Maybe "killin power" was the wrong words to use as you can certainly increase the explosiveness on critters of less stature buy increasing speed and using bullets less hardy. But the same things that creates explosive results on a prairie dog can be a detriment for larger critters. Kinda like using lightly constucted varmint bullets in a centerfire is not a good idea for deer hunting. The same can be said when you use too solid of a bullet like FMJ's on game, again not a good idea.

But for it's case size, lighter/smaller/lesser construction doesn't = bigger critters.

An 85g .243 slug is HALF the weight of a 170 30-30 bullet.

And YET which gun is a better 400 yard deer/antelope rifle cartridge?
Hint- it's damn sure not the 30-30.

Actual Terminal ballistics of a rifle round do NOT stop at some arbitrary bullet weight You "think" is too small. Lot's of other factors such as bullet shape and construction muzzle velocity come into play.

If your bullet weight theory were actually true, the dead 'yote lung shot with a 20g 17HMR game point at 120 yards(Shown half way down the Rimfire central thread below) would still be alive. And the 30-30 would be a more popular long range deer and antelope gun that the "puny" .243.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=370398&page=2

I have 22mag,& 5mm. MY daughter killed 3 hogs with 5mm from 50 to 110 yds, hogs weighted 60 lbs -135 lbs .Also shoot 30 lb tom turkeys.Nothing has run or flown off in 7 yrs of hunting. yes i have 17 and in MOA, 17 can not do that. Look into chuck hawks for specs. just my nickels worth

Now you're just argueing for the sake of argueing. Let's compare apples to apples here........ your comparison pretty well sucks a$$. Which is the better 400 yard deer gun a 85gr .243 or a 150gr .308? Same case but a smaller, lighter bullet. Sure as hell isn't the .243.

- 150gr .308 Winchester @ 300 yards: 9" drop, 1500lbs of energy, 8" drift.
- 85gr .243 @ 300 yards: 7" of drop, 1000lbs energy, 9" wind drift.

Even with slightly more drop the .308 is packing 50% more punch at 300 and at YOUR 400 yards it packs almost 100% more. It's a personal desision weather or not either is a 400 yard deer gun but the .243 is clearly the weaker of the 2.

Then you have to throw in bullet construction. What happens to your 400 yard deer slaying .243 when you insert a varmint bullet instead of a game bullet?

Now let's look what happens when you move up to elk? At any range the .243 is clearly inferior.

As for weather or not the .17mhr will kill a coyote....... yes, it will kill a coyote. It will also kill deer but that doesn't make it a deer round or better than a .22M or a centerfire. A .22LR will kill a coyote too but it doesn't make it a coyote round or better than a .22M either.

When you take THE SAME CASE, LIGHTEN THE CONSTRUCTION of the bullet TO THE POINT OF MAKING IT EXPLOSIVE ON A 3LBS RODENT, reduce its diameter and weight you DO NOT end up with a cartridge capable of taking larger game than it's brother with a heavier constructed, larger diameter and heavier weight bullet.

CB

For the record, I actually agree with your statement posted elsewhere that no rimfire is actually a good Coyote round.

My point is, if that's all you have on hand, it will do the job cleanly with proper bullets and shot placement. It's not just about bullet weight.

BTW, My 30-30 vs .243 argument was for DEER cartridges. But your counter arugment proves my point. On DEER the .243 with properly constructed bullets is as effective as any .308. But heck, 6mm slugs don't bounce off Elk ,either. Wayne Van Zwoll doesn't think it's too small.Wayne has killed more Elk cleanly that most folks will ever see. Watch this short video for the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation on recommended Elk rounds- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWi1wrsDZ6w

But back to the 17HMR..

If you'd care to look around, 17HMR slugs come in tougher controlled expanding 20g HP and 17g FMJ designs. So there goes your "bullet construction" argument..

In terms the ability to kill cleanly, a 20g 17HMR slug will kill, ANY 'yote on this planet just as dead as any other rimfire round with the same placement(see Rim fire central link above). None of them are ideal. Just adequate under certain circumstances.

There are pictures all over the net with clean 'yote kills with a 17HMR. With a smaller slug, placement becomes critical. It just requires good marksmanship..

Here's some video footage of some wild Hogs taken in Florida with the 17 HMR and head shots. They sure look bigger than 3lbs to me

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyoEELl007Q

Also, about 2 mintutes into this video a guy cleanly kills 3 feral goats in New Zealand Z with his 17HMR...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSPna4OjsEU&feature=related

But what they don't show on the net is all the critters that have not been taken cleanly with the .17 Hummer.....

PPosey: I have now killed 5 Badgers with my 17 HMR Rifle and all were one shot kills!
I have killed 3 Coyotes now with my 17 HMR Rifle and all were one shot kills!
I have also killed Fox, Wild Turkey, Rock Chucks and a plethora of other Varmint species with my 17 HMR - the 17 HMR simply kills way beyond what an unexperienced shooter/observer would expect!
I think it is the combined accuracy, flatter trajectory, faster bullets and faster rotating bullets that the 17 HMR has?
I don't care WHAT the reason is - I am thrilled that there is a more lethal rimfire cartridge than the 22 Magnum!
I have several ranches that only allow rimfires and on these ranches there are lots of Fox, Badgers, Jack Rabbits, Coyotes and a few Rock Chucks - the 17 HMR reigns supreme where rimfires are required.
Anyone who does not recognize the significant lethality of the 17 HMR OVER the 22 Magnums simply has not had enough trigger time with the 17 HMR!
PERIOD!
YES the 17 HMR is "so much better than the 22 Magnum"!
Legions of American Varminters "can't be wrong"!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

In your experience.

The 17HMR is a nice cartridge, but in my experience the 22 MRF just plain kills larger critter better/faster/more reliably with the common 40 and 45 grain JSP and JSP bullets. In my experience, the 17 grain plastic tip bullets are very fragile and fast opening, great for ground squirrels, pdogs, and other small lightly constructed critters, while the JHP often don't expend much, if any, and tend to drill through/through like FMJs.

Standard disclaimer; "YMMV and since my experience is mine alone, your experience is likely to be different.".

Jeff

Jim62: Nice harvest there with your 17 HMR!
That is a tall lanky Jack!
Good for you and many happy returns of that day!
Nice picture to.
My furthest Varmint kill to date with the 17 HMR is 246 yards but it was on a large black feathery (more delicate) Varmint!
That shot was simple compared to my friend Ron Kesselring who killed a skinny standing Weasel at 225 yards with his heavy barrel CZ in 17 HMR!
I swear that standing weasel was only 1 1/4" wide at the shoulder when Ron shot him!
I would NOT have even tried that shot with any of my 22 Magnums!
Accuarcy (ability to place the bullet precisely!), flatter trajectory, straighter flying in the wind, faster rotating bullets and faster linear bullets all add to the lethality that is inherent (supreme) in the 17 HMR!
I have now killed three species of Rabbits with my 17 HMR's - Cottontails, Jack Rabbits and Snowshoe Hares!
Again ANYONE who thinks the 17 HMR cartridge is less lethal than the 22 Magnums simply does NOT have enough trigger time with the 17 HMR!
Otherwise why would the 17 HMR arms be outselling the 22 Magnums nowadays by 20 to 1?
"Hard hitting" is an ambiguous and not convincing measure/description of a cartridges lethality on game!
Foot pounds of energy is not the only component (nor the most important!) of lethality!
There is an old saying "speed kills" and in this case that is a very important component of rimfire lethality!
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6vc-3uD0Do&feature=related

.

A vid showng a 17HMR compared to a .300 win mag???

WTF?

The thread is about 17HR vs 22 mags- NOT comparing them to center fires.

FWIW, a 22 mag load would not be any more impressive compared to a 300 mag.

That's a funny post considering ALL the animals lost over the last 50 years by idiots shooting .22 magnums would fill a container ship.

As to the Hog and NZ Goat vids..

They took HEAD SHOTS in both vids.

Are you going to tell me a 22 mag kills stuff more surely with head shots than a 17HMR?

GET A CLUE.

Where's that sense of humor today Jim?

.22 Mag = apples
.17 HMR = oranges
.300 WM = Alaska pumpkins


We have previously debated aspects of exterior ballistics of the .22/.17 but the vids you posted raise a separate issue, that being terminal ballistics and placement. While watching the two vids I noticed that in each case there were more shots fired than critters down for keeps. There was a second pig vs. 17 HMR vid on the menu with the first you posted, same story.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR-HwPvoEOA&feature=related

So, to the question you raised about the viability of the .17 vs .22 for head shots, I'm not sure it's a valid comparison one way or another. Maybe it was placement, maybe it was bullet performance? What I do know about hogs is their CNS architecture is fairly well protected on broadside shots, both by bone for the brain and muscle mass for the neck vertebra. Neither provides much if any latitude for error in placement/performance when using expanding bullets from low powered cartridges. In the case of the vids under discussion it is an open question as to whether it was placement or bullet performance that fell short, no?

Put another way, it is necessary to not only place the subject bullets properly to effect a CNS kill, it is likewise necessary to have a bullet that will get there. In discussion about your assertion of equivalency of the two rounds I find some basis to object for a couple of reasons. One is momentum calculus which tells me the .22 Mag is far ahead of of the HMR. For that matter, it isn't clear to me the HMR has much more momentum than a .22 CB Short. Secondly, the WMR has several options which limit expansion. One is the FMJ loading by Winchester and another is the reduced velocity of the Federal 50 grain load. I cannot say how well the Federal load works as I haven't tried it, but the Winchester FMJ will pass thru and thru a hog's skull, be it a broadside shot or head on aspect. Until such time as a FMJ load hits the market for the .17 I would judge it inferior to the WMR on that basis for applications on larger game and even then the numbers may not fully support such applications.

End of the day and all that, I'm thinking the HMR is a fine cartridge that has a lot of very specific applications. Hornady is to be complemented for introducing a quality product which raised the bar for the industry and I understand it's popularity. It does have it's limitations however, just as all cartridges do. However, I cannot view the orange as superior to the apple in this regard, or even equivalent.

I've killed several deer with lung shots and the 40 gr. Winchester JHP .22 Mags. All went down within 50-125 yards and were dead as a stone when I got to them. I picked the perfectly expanded slugs from under the hide on the off side of the rib cage. Try shooting a few with your 17 HMR and get back to me. I'd be real curious as to your results.

No that's just bigstick when he was younger. Makes the pumpkin look much bigger than it really is . Atleast he's got some shorts on in that picture!!!!

Gawd, I thought I could slip that one by ya! LMAO here...

have you ever shot a coyote or javelina with a 17?? they recalled the autos.

Roninflag: Yes I have shot Coyotes with the 17 HMR.
Worked just wonderfully thank you.
The Volquartsen 17 HMR's have NOT been recalled - they were apparently engineered and built correctly to begin with.
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

Blackheart: In the state where I live (Montana) it IS legal to shoot Big Game with the 17 HMR and the various 22 Magnums as well - there are NO caliber restrictions here.
And yes I have heard of several folks shooting Deer with various rimfires INCLUDING the 17 HMR.
I have not witnessed these situations so I have no first hand observations to relay.
I do not recommend this Deer Hunting with rimfires - nor will I ever be trying it myself.
I will repeat though - in case you did not understand me - anyone who thinks the 17 HMR is less lethal than the 22 Magnums simply does NOT have enough trigger time with the 17 HMR!
ESPECIALLY on the size game for which the rimfires were designed for and intended to Hunt with.
You conveniently left out the results of YOUR Deer shooting experiences with the 17 HMR - could you correct that glaring ommission for us?
Or not.
And this - just out of curiousity which state are you harvesting your Deer with the rimfires in?
Hold into the wind
VarmintGuy

It seems to me that none of the bullets currently loaded in the 17 HMR are adequate for deer and clearly shouldn't be used except under life or death situations. I know, folks who disagree will say shoot them in the CNS, but hitting the CNS is often easier said than done.

OTOH, 22 MRF 40 and 45 grain loads are often the cartridge of choice by professional herd reduction/improvement shooters. If the 17 HMR was superior, those professionals would adopt it for their purposes. Since none that I know of have, I am sticking with the 22 MRF.

I'm not anti-17 HMR, I've got several of them and have fired around 5K 17 HMR cartridges at ground squirrels, pdogs, and paper since the 17 HMR was 1st introduced. But I don't think that the 17 HMR is a better choice than the 22 MRF for heavier or tougher animals. I know that is 180-degrees different than your take on the subject, but it is my take on the subject, based on shooting several different brands of ammo from several different rifles, both factory specs and custom.

Jeff

Again, if you take 2 cartridges based off the same case, give one a smaller, lighter bullet and one a heavier, larger diameter bullet the case with the larger bullet will be more effective on larger game. This is givin equal bullet construction. A .243 isn't a better elk round than a .308, a .25-06 is not a better big bear round than a .30-06 and a .17hmr is not a better coon/fox/coyote round than a .22M. Whether any of the above rounds are ethically capable of killin the game mentioned is ones own choice. You may believe a .243 is fine for elk or a .25-06 is fine for big bear or the .17hmr is fine for coyote. BUT THEY AREN"T BETTER than their parent cartridge for the big game.

Now you take those same comparisons and load a lighter constructed bullet in the smaller diameter cartridge and shoot "small for cartridge" game and it will blow em to smithereens and can lead to better killing power on these small targets. Take a .243 varmint bullet to a coyote and you'll get the red mist so many prairie dog hunters love while a heavier constructed .308 game bullet may act like a FMJ and do very little damage. It's due to the construction.

So a .17hmr that blows a gopher to hell and gone more than likely won't be a good choice for a coon. But that same .17hmr may be better for gophers than a HP .22M due to the fact that the bullet construction doesn't allow the bullet to reach it's fill potential on rodents.

So to say the .17 is the better killer because it splatters gophers and crows doesn't mean it's over all better.

Both have their place. But in my opinion the .22M has a smaller place. Why? The .22M is sandwiched in between the .22LR, the .17HMR and the centerfires. Doesn't leave much room for the .22M. Citters under 10lbs I'll take a .17hmr or a .22LR. Over 20lbs and I'll take a centerfire. Leaves between 10-20 lbs critters and range is limited. Not very versatile.

CB

Those who think the 17 HMR is a better killer for things that don't live in colonies simply hasn't shot enough 17 HMR at things bigger than a coon.

Head shots don't count for the killability of a bullet/cartridge.

For anything bigger than a coon, the 22 magnum trumps the 17HMR in every single way.

Well, as they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

I'm not planning to sell any of my 6 17 HM2s, 7 17 HMRs, 1 5mm Rem Mag, 38 22 LRs, or 14 22 MRFs, since each fills a niche that I consider worth filling.

I would have to disagree with your contention that the 22 MRF isn't very versatile when compared to the 17 HM2, 17 HMR, and 22 LR. Performance wise, the addition of the 30 grain VMax at 2200 fps is pretty comperable to the 17 HMR out to 150+/- yards, while the common 40 and 45 grain JSP and JHP bullet have been, in my experience, much better game bullets then the lead bullets found in most 22 LR ammo. If anything, the 22 MRFs niche overlaps all of the other 4 RF cartridges to a significant degree. With a better selection of bullets, the 5mm Rem Mag has the potential to be the best of the 5, but the currently available 30 grain Centurian ammo doesn't shoot as well in my Remington 592 as the original 38 grain HP load offered by R-P.

Jeff

Concur completely...

I won't be trying the 17 HMR on deer either. I had one for 6 years. Shot squirrels, crows, pigeons, starlings,woodchucks and coons with it. I also have 43 years ecperience killin' schitt with the .22 LR, .22 mag and 5mm Rem mag... As I said before, the 17 HMR is a fine 175 yard crow rifle but beyond that I have little use for it. Once you get into bigger stuff like woodchucks, coons,coyotes { The 17 MAY WORK ON THEM PUNY STIPS OF LEATHER WITH EARS YOU CALL COYOTES OUT IN MONTANA BUT REST ASSURED IT'S NOTHING YOU'D WANT TO USE FOR THE ONES WE HAVE HERE IN THE NORTHEAST} or deer I'll take the .22 mag or 5mm over the .17 any day ending in Y. Heck, I'll even take A .22 LR loaded with CCI velocitors over the .17HMR for anything bigger than a woodchuck inside 50 yards. The HMR ain't just a little rimfire .243 like you seem to think.

Oh you're gonna get it now...grin...

Oh yeah .... my cy'ote momma can beat-up your cy'ote momma even if yours wears combat boots too!! :p

I like the trajectory on the 17 RFs, but they don't kill chucks consistently in my limited experience. After having several run off after hits with the 17, I got the 218 Bee out this past spring and they were DRT. One shot.

What I think is that everyone should shoot whatever they like and it doesn't matter. The way some people make a big deal arguing about this stuff, trying to prove themselves right and others wrong, is stupid. A few guys need to grow up.

One of the people I hunt with uses a 17 HMR, mine is a 22mag. We rimfire groundsquirrels from about 15-20' to about 75yds and not further than 100. The 22 makes a bigger gutpile. I don't care about 150 or 200yds with a rimfire. Explosions are what's fun, plop and fall over isn't interesting. The 22mag has always worked really well for me on targets up to rockchuck size and ammunition price is reasonable by the case. So I've never cared about changing. For more power/range I'll use a 17AH which costs about the same (or less) to shoot as a 17HMR and is in a whole different league. I don't care what people shoot. Someone likes the HMR, then they should use it......if someone likes the 22Mag, same thing. It's about what you like and it's nobody's business to tell you you're wrong.

There seems to be a mythology about the various 17's dating to the days of PO Ackley. He reports some results with various 17 center-fires on big game that ignited my imagination. The "Speed Kills" fraternity expected some fantastic results from 4000fps and they reported them. No doubt these little rounds work well sometimes even on bigger game. They even invented the concept of bullet rotational energy to explain the fantastic results they were reporting

I was an impressionable kid in the 70's and had to have a 17 Remington. I used one for a while and found mine would give very inconsistent results on game over 15 pounds or so. Tissue destruction was in line with kinetic energy but no magic effect was noted. It is not a big game round in my estimation. Eventually the wilder claims for the CF 17's retreated and it won some respect as a rather specialized varmint round.

It seems a similar aura of mythology surrounds the little 17 HRM. I have one of these as well. Again tissue destruction and killing power is about were the Kinetic Energy figures are...that is a bit less than the 22Mag. The 20 grain XTP is actually a pretty good game bullet with good expansion and weight retention. The 40 grain Winchester 22 Mag is better on game over 5 pounds, at least under 100 yards. The 50 grain 22Mag bullets are an even better game bullet in the 22 Mag. The 40 grain HP explodes gophers a bit better than the 17 to 125 yards. Past 125 yards the 17 is a bit easier to hit with. In a wind both pretty much suck. Even the little 22 Hornet leaves both in the dust when it comes to hitting power and versatility.

I have noticed no magic in either rimfire round. I like both. For game over 5 pounds I'd pick the 22 Mag. For game over 25 pounds I'd pick a 22 center-fire. For game over 100 pounds I'd reach for a 6mm, for game over 300 pounds I use a 358 Norma.

Everything has it's niche. The 17HMR's niche is pest control for sub 5 pound targets from 50-175 yards. It's neat to be able to see the bullet impact. It's nice to not reload 500 rounds a day that is expended in good gopher country. For larger pests the 22 Magnum is a marginally better choice.

My opinions on the hitting power of the two rounds is based on a lot of trigger time on gophers mostly. It is pretty obvious that the 22 Mag explodes gophers a lot better at close range. There is less of a difference out past 100 yards. I admit that my hitting percentage past 100 yards goes up with the 17 due to it's flatter trajectory.

The thoughts on rotational energy creating some extra hitting power has been pretty much discredited. It amounts to very little extra energy. Again to me the KE pretty much explains the tissue destruction I have witnessed.

How that compares is prarphrased below from Chuck Hawk's site

FROM CHUCK HAWK
* .17 HMR, 17 grain V-Max = ME 245 ft. lbs., 185 ft. lbs. at 50 yards, 136 ft. lbs. at 100 yards, 99 ft. lbs. at 150 yards, 72 ft. lbs. at 200 yards.
* .17 HMR, 20 grain XTP = ME 250 ft. lbs., 187 ft. lbs. at 50 yards, 137 ft. lbs. at 100 yards, 99 ft. lbs. at 150 yards, 72 ft. lbs. at 200 yards.
* .22 WMR, 30 grain TNT = ME 325 ft. lbs., 200 ft. lbs. at 50 yards, 120 ft. lbs. at 100 yards, 80 ft. lbs. at 150 yards.
* .22 WMR, 40 grain JHP = ME 324 ft. lbs., 230 ft. lbs. at 50 yards, 162 ft. lbs. at 100 yards.

Here we see a different story. The .22 WMR starts with about a 75 ft. lb. advantage in kinetic energy at the muzzle. At 50 yards the 40 grain .22 bullet is carrying about 45 more ft. lbs., and at 100 yards the 40 grain .22 bullet still has a 25 ft. lb. advantage over the .17 bullets. At 150 yards the .17 HMR has an energy advantage of about 20 ft. lbs. over the 30 grain .22 bullet, and we have no figures for the 40 grain bullet beyond 100 yards."

Energy numbers are about as worthless as the price of admission FWIW IMHO...

I disagree. Energy is a valid measure of the amount of work the projectile will do. Unlike most of the "formulas" invented it has a sound scientific basis. In my humble experience it also has done a pretty good job (along with projectile construction) of explaining wound channels from 17HMR to 12 Gauge Slugs and everything in between.


We agree however that the 22Mag has more oomph than the 17. Energy, momentum, cross-sectional area, any way you cut it the 22 Mag hits harder.

Yep !

Not too impressed by energy figures myself, especially in context of 2-3 digits.

I don't own a .22 Mag, and I really like the HMR, but there's no doubt a .22 Mag hits "harder" within it's range capabilities. The HMR is easier to hit with at extended distances, though, and that is what makes it popular.
I just read a thread on Ausvarmints.com (an Aussie website) where three guys took their HMRs out for a day of rabbit shooting, and ended up with 18 foxes and 40-50 rabbits for the day/night episode. That's a remarkable day, anywhere, anytime.
They had no issues with the HMR's hitting abilities, or it's killing power (even on the foxes) but I have to feel that most of that is due to the ease with which the cartridge shoots, it's simply easier to shoot well, no recoil, fun to play with, makes it more fun to shoot.
Those guys get a LOT of practice, rabbits, cats, and foxes are in abundance, too.


Anything a feller shoots a lot, he's bound to like better as he gets more familiar with it.

I don't own a .22 Magnum, and probably will not, because I have a Hornet I can load the same way, but I won't throw rocks at a WMR, either.

Shoot what you like, that's what they're made for, and enjoy them all.

http://www.brassfetcher.com/22WMR.html

http://www.brassfetcher.com/17HMR.html

Both have their place and purpose.

We do agree on the .22 magnum but that's it...

Holes kill critters, not "energy"...

"energy" may make them fly farther or blow up more but holes kills stuff....

A .223 through the heart kills better than 7,000 ft lbs. of energy up the ass...

Energy is a prehistoric measurement utilized before the last decade of unbelievable projectiles available to the masses that makes any and all energy arguments moot...

Add in the fact that you're even talking "energy" with cartridges so relatively puny is just grasping at straws IMHO...

But regardless, the .22 magnum trumps it in all regards related to killing...

I'm always amazed that any discussion of cartridges on the Campfire ends up as a put-down of any cartridge that isn't somebody's pet.

Of course, the original post in this thread was guaranteed to start this one off in that direction.

The truth is that the .17 HMR and .22 Magnum are very different rounds, despite using the same basic case. The differences between the weight and bore-area of their bullets are very much like the differences between the .223 and .280.
So why in hell would their performance be directly comparable?

Personally, I find all the present easily-available rimfire rounds very useful, with niches for each, the reason I own rifles chambered for the .17 Mach II, .17 HMR, .22 Long Rifle and .22 Magnum. And I shoot all of them every year, on various kinds of small game and varmints, just as I shoot a wide variety of centerfires on varmints and big game.
_________________________
John

"Banks are better than trains. They're always in the same place, and you know the money's there."--Butch Cassidy

grin...

Whenever someone claims the 17HMR isn't good for (insert whatever little mammal you want here) I always wonder if they are aware that there ARE other kinds of ammo out there than the 17 grain VMAX! I can't help but think the 20 grain XTP is perfect for fox and more than adequate for coon, possum, woodchuck, etc. I carried my hummer stoked with 20 grain XTP's many times while calling bobcat in AZ and I never felt undergunned inside of 100 yards or so.

I never really intended to shoot a yote with my 17HMR but if one showed up close enough and presented the right shot I'd take it with the 20 grain XTP bullet.

My uncle has killed almost 20 woodchucks at his farm with his 17HMR shooting 17 gr VMAXs but I gave him a couple of boxes of 20 grain XTPs and he's using those now. I don't think I'd use the VMAX's on anything bigger than a rabbit if I had a choice, but I imagine they'd turn a fox's insides to jelly if hit perfectly broadside in a pinch. I'd still much prefer the 20 gr XTP. I don't think I'd consider shooting a yote with a VMAX but I do not have the experience in killing them to really make an educated decision on that.

I definitely don't consider a 17HMR a true predator cartridge, but if that's all you got then load up with the 20 grain XTP's, keep your range close and hold out for perfect shots. I know there are 17HMR full metal jacket rounds out there, but I wonder if they are legal to hunt with. They'd be super for head shots I bet, if it was legal to hunt with them. Shooting a yote in the brain with a hummer shooting FMJ's seems akin to Karamojo Bell brain-shooting elephants with 6.5 and 7mm FMJ's.

Given a choice, I'd pick something other than my 17HMR for pred hunting since I'd be able to extend my range but I'll be damned if I sit home instead of hunt just because I only feel comfortable shooting at bobcats and fox out to 100 yards with it. The last gray fox I called in was only about 20 yards away in a wash, would have been an easy shot with my hummer, but she had a pup with her and I let her walk.

I haven't ever owned a 22 Mag so I can't comment on that round. I think it would be nice to have a lever-action 22 Mag with aperture sights to keep in the truck. That just seems like a fun little truck gun that would do a lot and be cheap enough to plink with.

In any case, this is a nice thread, I enjoyed reading through everyone's comments.

Woohoo 3 whole yotes, we better all get rid of out .223s and go out and buy a .17hummer to yote hunt with as this proves it is a great yote round,,,,

I don't shoot itty bitty critters on a regular basis, tree rats get subsonic .22LR HPs,,, things I shoot tend to get bigger fast after tree rats, I'd rather use something that wasn't invented to splatter gophers or impress the newest, fastest crowd,,,, just no nitch for the .17 to fill around here.

Yes. Not just cartridges......bullet, powder, twist rate, barrelmaker, barrel length, contour, stock, scope, etc. Some people on here think whatever they like is the only thing, use something different and they say it's because you're the dumb one. Petty overcompensation taken to the extreme. Too many threads get ugly and are ruined because of this.

+1!

Jeff

Well put as always Dan!

I have three .22mags. A Sav 24 in .22mag over 20ga, a Win 9422 lever, and a Rem 597 auto. The auto gets most of my use. My .17HMR is a scoped 17-LP 12" Anschutz pistol with the left hand bolt and a 5 shot mag. It is sweet, but if I could only have one, it would be a .22mag. Good luck.

Energy is a scientifically valid measure of the amount of work being done. Nothing prehistoric about it. The 22 Magnum has more of it than the 17HMR at least at reasonable ranges. Combining energy with projectile action explains the wound channels I have seen in tissue, wet newsprint, mudholes or other media better than any other measure. It helps me make sense of rounds as diverse as the 17 HMR to the 45-70. Other folks can believe what they want but energy combined with an idea of bullet action helps me make pretty good predictions that have held up pretty well in the real world.