Comparing a 30-30 to a rifled barrel 20 gauge.
Which is better for primarily deer hunting & target shooting?
I already have the 20 gauge. Do I really need a 30-30?

If you can take the pounding and can afford (and find) slugs for target shooting with your 20, knock yourself out(!) On the other hand, a 30/30, or lots of other CF cartridges, are extremely useful and versatile, and easily handloaded for economy and performance tailored to the use to which you want to put them.

If you don’t handload, right now the 6mm Creedmoor or one of the elephant rounds seems to be what’s readily available in factory ammunition.

If shotguns with rifled barrels could compete with rifles for deer hunting, then more people would be using them. How many people do you know that use a rifled 20 gauge for deer hunting?

Muzzle loaders are better than rifled shotguns. Why wouldn’t a smokeless 30-30 be at least as good or better?

Rifled shotguns have their place for those areas where rifles aren’t legal, but those places have become fewer since the straight-wall regs have started being adopted. Nearby VA & MD still have some areas that are SG only, I think. I’ll always use a rifle if legal. MLs are great and effective, but require a bit more futzing around with than I care to do during a long season. We get a week of ML, which is no problem.

Been watching the Hunting Public videos and the weaponry they and their friends and relatives carry during the Iowa gun seasons is pretty varied. The younger guys seem to be toting a fair number of .450s.

Actually several around here. For hunting mainly mule deer. We have some nearby areas that are shotgun only. Lots of deer..... not many hunters.
I know one young gentleman who successfully hunts rifle areas with his 20ga slug gun.

Well the .600 nitro express was based on a 20 ga. brass shotgun case. Just saying.

The question wasn't what to use in different situations or regulated areas....If you stick to the question....then the .30-30 wins every time for both...

I took a long look at the slug gun situation a few years ago. As a rule, slug guns are a specialty item. They require deep investment in both guns and ammo to get anywhere near the accuracy and range that even a mediocre rifle and cheap ammo provide. Other things I learned:
• 12 gauge has far better ammo choices than the 20 gauge, plus good loads are easier to find.
• Somewhat lighter recoil is the only advantage the 20 has over the 12. The 20 can go into lighter guns but they kick harder so that’s a wash, especially with deer loads.
• 20-gauge slug quality can be spotty, with much bigger lot-to-lot variations in accuracy and velocity than you’d expect with rifle ammo.
• Smoothbores will kill game. Rifled barrels USUALLY shoot better with one or two loads, but it’s expensive to find out and you need a scope to get the most out of them.
• If your shotgun has interchangeable barrels, then mount the scope on the barrel. Mounting a scope on the action is possible but you need to pin the barrel to the action to really make it work. Once you do that, your gun doesn't have interchangeable barrels any more. Gunsmiths in the Great Lakes region and the Midwest have figured out how to do this cheaply and well. Listen to their advice and let them do the work.
• Once you find a load that your barrel shoots well, buy as much of it as you can find--cases and cases--because you may not be able to find it again on short notice, and even then it may be a different lot that doesn't shoot as well or have the same zero.

If rifles are legal, then they win hands down. We can split hairs with edge cases but all things considered, the typical 30-30 has the accuracy and trajectory to reach about 50% farther on deer than the typical shotgun. It will also be cheaper to feed, easier to use, and simpler to get shooting well.

I’d go 308 over 30-30 but that’s a personal thing.


Okie John

I agree 100%. If you can't use a rifle legally, then the shotgun is the better choice.

In places like SE PA and New Jersey they are required. The Savage 220, 20 ga. seems to be the weapon of choice in NJ. It has a big following both for its effectiveness and accuracy.

I have one and it is an accurate, capable weapon. In fact it is as accurate or more accurate than my sons two 94 30-30s.

BTW I have shot deer with the 220 using sabot slugs. The 30-30 could not have been more effective.

I have never felt handicapped using the 220.

What was the range on your shots?

The fact is, where rifles are allowed, shotguns are almost never the weapon of choice for big game.

And your sample of your son's two rifles vs your one shotgun is just an anecdote. It doesn't mean much in the big picture, same as the results on a few deer. How did you make your comparison to the 30-30 to conclude it couldn't be more effective?

We grew up having to use slugs guns for deer at home. Most all of us used Brownings, Remingtons and Ithaca’s. We all scoped our stuff and did as others mentioned, once we found a slug that shot we’d go buy a ton of it.

I never felt handicapped out to 150 yards which was plenty in our area.

I’d pick a rifle 99/100 and did when they changed the laws.

No question, the .30/30 is the better choice. Hands down.

EDIT: Don't look at the next post...... LOL

When it comes to fire-arms, "what does need have to do with anything"..........


Didn't need this one, but sure wanted it!



CSMC, RBL Professional. Rifled 20 Ga. S xS



ought to roll a hoglet!

ya!

GWB

My scoped Marlin .30-30 routinely shoots sub MOA. I have killed deer with one shot at ranges between 200 and 250 yards several times with a .30-30. It kicks less, shoots flatter, is more accurate and cheaper to feed than your slug gun.

Why are you limited to .30-30 or slug gun ? A .270 or .30-06 beats the shyt out of any slug gun for deer. So do a bunch of other high velocity rifle cartridges.

If I was forced to deer hunt with a slug gun, I’d likely.move, hunt out of state, or quit hunting deer.

That said, Gdub’s SxS is a BEAUT!

Thanks for all the comments. Much appreciated!
I do love that 20ga rifled SxS. Now I need one. I figured someone here would end up being an enabler.
I hunt mostly in a shotgun only area, making good use of my Ithaca for both birds & deer. The rifle areas are further away & don’t seem to have as many deer.
I hate recoil, that’s why I thought about the 30-30.

Yeah, I noticed that.

You could have mentioned that tidbit of info...

Yeah, if I had to pick between my .30-30 and GW's 20 gauge, I'd trade him even up. GW don't count though.

IMO you don’t gain a thing with a 12g slug vs a 20g slug. If you have a 20 just stay there for slug hunting

And no to the 30-30. They are awful, useless, and outdated. Please just send all of them to me along with all components and I’ll make sure they are properly disposed of...

I don't think so, as to VA. Name the county if you think I'm wrong. Some urban counties (e.g., Fairfax) don't allow firearms at all, and some require you to be in ane elevate stand if you do. But I don't think there are any shotgun-only counties in VA. There are a bunch in MD.

Caroline County where my club is at is shotgun only I believe.

Nope. The only county-specific guidelines for Caroline County are:

“17. Muzzleloading rifles are permitted during any authorized deer season where firearms are permitted.”
And
“83. It shall be unlawful to hunt with a rifle larger than a caliber of .22 caliber in the county, except in the hunting of groundhogs, coyotes, and feral hogs outside the general firearms deer season.”

Ah I got ya. I thought you meant rifles were legal. Sorry about that.

I think they are--for deer season. Pretty sure that's what the regs are saying.

You also can use a ML during rifle season, but you can't use anything bigger than a .22 outside of deer season.

Not that I’m aware of. It’s been shotgun only or ML for a long time. I can’t remember any changes to that.

I have found that 20 gauge sabot slugs are pretty accurate, but compared to normal factory ammo prices, they are around 2x to 3x more expensive. A couple of months ago you could buy a box of 20 30-30 rounds at WM for around $15, $0.75 per round, while 20 gauge sabot shotgun slugs were running between $1 and $2 per round.

That bastard has me rethinking my dislike of slug guns. 😀

That double is freaking cool. If it came with a set of 28” 20ga barrels.....

I have no knowledge of the county. I'm just reading the regs.

The General VA firearms season rules provide that, for deer, you must use “Rifles and pistols using centerfire ammunition (.23 caliber or LARGER) Pistols must generate at least 350 foot pounds of energy or greater.”

“In the counties (including the cities and towns within) of Appomattox, Brunswick, Buckingham, Caroline, Charlotte, Chesterfield, Dinwiddie, Essex, Gloucester, Greensville, King & Queen, King William, Lunenburg, Mathews, Mecklenburg, Middlesex, Nottoway, and Prince Edward” you can hunt deer during the “Firearms Deer Season,” which is “November 14 through January 2” in those counties, and the only regulations listed specifically for Caroline County are that:

“17. Muzzleloading rifles are permitted during any authorized deer season where firearms are permitted.”
And
“83. It shall be unlawful to hunt with a rifle larger than a caliber of .22 caliber in the county, except in the hunting of groundhogs, coyotes, and feral hogs outside the general firearms deer season.”

I could be missing something, but I doubt it. There is a firearms deer season that last six weeks in Caroline County, but you can’t use any caliber bigger than .22 outside of deer season for any hunting.

Don’t know for certain about current VA regs. Had a work buddy that hunted the Tidewater area long ago and he hated buckshot with a passion, always preferred slugs. At that time, there were BS zones too, according to him anyway. Only places in VA I ever hunt (and seldom now with the license prices) have always been rifle areas.

The regs are here: https://dwr.virginia.gov/wp-content...ting-and-Trapping-Regulations-Digest.pdf

I grew up in Michigan. Still go back time to time to deer hunt. Still have a large group of relatives there. Ton of friends. The southern half of the lower peninsula was shotgun/ muzzleloader only up till a few years ago. That's where I grew up, it's still where my relatives all live. All I know is this. When the Savage 220 came out we all jumped on that wagon within about 4 yrs. When they made straight walls legal the 450 bushmaster took over in about 2yrs. Now it's the 350 legend. No one talks about slugs anymore. Ever. The 30-30 was/is popular with them that use grandads gun north of the line but even if they made them legal down in the southern zone I doubt you would see any. Guess what I'm trying to say is unless you already got access to one I'd find a different caliber or stick with the 20(in a rifled barrel). Just my 2 cents.

Shotguns-only on some special hunts, like Great Dismal Swamp and Radford Arsenal.

I hunt an area occasionally that requires Shotgun only, and I’ve taken a couple of really nice Blacktails with mine. This year I had a dandy buck in my scopes crosshairs, but I didn’t take the shot. All I had was his throat and head. And I just didn’t feel confident enough with the Shotgun to take that shot. I’d have dropped him with a rifle.

They work great if you can get the right shot, but if you don’t, you may wish you’d have had a rifle.

The chart on page 21, the one with number codes, shows the counties that prohibit rifles for deer and/or big game, codes 7 & 8. There are other places with rules about exceptions when hunting from elevated stands and maybe more. Pretty complicated, so anyone who wants to hunt should study that chart, then maybe call to be sure. Ain't hunting down that way, so not a problem for me.

Right. There are counties that preclude rifle hunting, but they do not say that shotgun hunting is legal either. I don't think there are any shotgun-only hunting counties in VA. That was my point. There are counties the preclude firearm hunting of deer, and there are some that permit it only in a stand of 10', some at 15'; but I don't think there are any that allow shotgun but no rifle. Not in VA.

And Caroline County only prohibits +.22 cal during NON-deer season. Which means they allow it during deer season.

I live and hunt in Price William County, VA. During the modern season we can use shotguns, muzzleloaders, or archery tackle. No rifles larger than .22 for hunting in the county. So while not designated as "shotgun only"; that is what the option is.

I bow hunt most all of the open season but my 20ga slug gun gets to hunt sometimes too...

"Of no account" would probably more approptiate!

ya!

GWB

Interesting. I assumed that no rifle meant no rifled slug, unless they said so, such as in MD.

Unless the shotgun is mandated by law I would get a .30-30. It would seem the better choice for deer and far better for targets at least cost wise.

The best shotgun I have purely for deer is a Savage 220 with a 3-9x40 scope on it. It does 1 1/2" 3 shot groups at 100 yards with 20 gauge three inch Accutips. Those are 265 gr at 1900 FPS. Sighted 3.5" high at 100 yards it is near POA at 175 in
my shotgun. This ammo is spendy and I don't use it for targets except to check sight in.
I do shot it a little with Super-X 1 ounce Foster slugs which is affordable. They are very accurate as well but run out of useful range around 125 yards.

These 220's are specialized setups. My pardner and I use them to doe hunt some alfalfa we get access to. Ranges are longer than in other areas. We use the 3-9 scopes as needed to verify the animals aren't smaller bucks that made it through the buck season. Other rifled shotguns haven't given us the consistent accuracy these do.

In other areas we use smoothbore slug guns as we like the flexibility to take grouse, pheasant and rabbits as well as deer. They are only good to 125 yards max.

Do you have issues with either lead or sabot plastic building up and affecting accuracy? Some ML shooters are very careful about not letting their barrels get hot while testing because they think the heat softens the sabots. I don’t think I can load and fire that fast!

My cousin has a Browning A-Bolt 12 that he likes a bunch. Killed one big Ohio buck at 150 with it. They’re pretty spendy, though. I started with smoothbores and they were always fine in the woods. Sights were the main problem, and my uncle, my brother, and I were the first in our group to scope our guns, beginning in the 60s when my uncle had his Deerslayer drilled for a Weaver Pivot mount and put a K4 with a dot on it. That wicked little pump killed a lot of deer, and sliced a bunch of eyebrows.

East of where I live is shotgun or ML only for gun deer hunting. If I had a place to hunt in the swamp or on Crowley's ridge. I would use a Muzzleloader. There are huge deer with huge racks would be the attraction to hunting there. Otherwise I would opt for a rifle and do.
I use to put in for a permit hunt in one of the management areas. I bought some iron sights that clamped on the rib of my shotgun thinking I would use that if I got drawn. It didn't take many shots to realize that I would take my ML if I got a tag. My ML will shoot 1 1/2 groups at 100 yards.

Ha! "Can't count all those rifles," maybe?

The two I shot with the 220 were about 40 and 60 yards respectively.

The comparison is made because the deer went "bang flop". They never quivered. You can't get more efficient than that.

The comment about my son's 30-30s is not an anecdote. The 220 is a 1.5" weapon. The 30-30s are 2.5" weapons'.

Not all .30-30's are 2.5" guns. I have three of them right now and they all do better than that. My Marlin averages right around 3/4" for 3 shots at 100 yards consistently. I've had 6 Marlin .30-30's over the years and all would do under 2" with their favored loads.

Not all 220s are 1.5" guns either. My 20ga 220 cloverleafs at 100 with Rem Accutip 2.75" sabot slugs and a 2-7x scope. Took a cow elk with that gun and the 3" Accutips this past fall.

You're right about "an anecdote," I should have stated it differently. I should have said "anecdotal" because an example of one is the definition of anecdotal evidence. Meaning, an example of one doesn't prove anything.

Back to your first post, where you said you didn't know how a 30-30 could be more effective. What if the shots were around 200 yards rather than 40 or 60?

Admirable accuracy for a slug gun. It still don't shoot as flat as a .30-30, particularly with the Hornady LeverEvolution ammo or equivalent handloads with the Hornady flex tip bullets.

Shooting big game with a shotgun when you can use a rifle seems to me to be the proverbial dog walking on its hind legs.

No one who is not hunting in the same area you are can say for sure and certain which is going to be "better" you YOU!
Only you can decide. If one shot kills are normal for you with a 20 ga how can a rifle actually be "better?" Maybe the words "user friendly" would describe the issue more accurately then the word "better".

Speaking for myself, I would never take a shot gun if I could have a rifle, but that's because I am VERY familiar with hunting with rifles. In fact, I have never once shot anything larger than a bad dog with a shotgun. But dead is dead and so I can't say the rifle is "better" for depending on where and how you hunt, it may be.

If you see situations that a rifle will have an advantage, like shooting through holes in the brush, shooting at longer ranges, or just liking the lighter recoil of some rifle then you you should get a rifle too.
But if I were a hunter with successful shotgun kills in my past and I wanted to buy a rifle to add to the rack, I think I would be more inclined to buy something with a scope that was accurate to shoot through those "holes in the brush" and do all the shotgun would do in addition to may things the shotgun can't do (like 300 yard Wood Chucks)

A 30-30 is a classic American deer round and does a wonderful job, but if you buy a rifle to supplement your arms, maybe you should also consider a flatter shooting gun. I killed one of my deer last season with a 30-30 with a peep sight at over 200 yards so be assured the old 30-30 has better capability than many think, but I am the first to acknowledge if you were wanting to have few guns and simply learn your weapons and become very skilled with them a flatter shooter may be a better 2nd gun.
Just my random thoughts---------------------------------------

https://www.browning.com/content/br...htweight-stainless-with-pistol-grip.html

https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/the-long-ranger/

I need to have a gimme-cap embroidered with capital letters, JAFO, like Roy Scheider in Blue Thunder.

Anywho, from just another friggin' observer,

with respect,

A guy I used to know had a sticker on the back window of his El Camino, it read........because I can.



14 friends having my back at +/- 8'

PS: he was all 4 legs in the air at the time of impact!


ya!

GWB

here in PA if i was reaching into the safe for a deer gun, i'd reach past the 20 and grab the 30/30 every time. but the 20 could be fun. but no comparison to the rifle.

They definitely don’t make it easy to understand. I’d be tickled with the straight wall cartridges myself.

It’s not real nice for the youth hunters either. A younger hunter doesn’t need to be subjected to a shotgun slugs recoil.

Great pic GWB. I grew up hunting deer in a shotgun-only area, right near haverluk so I know what they're capable of. Not many used slugs back then of course, and they weren't nearly as good as they are today.

Were I to have had the option of using a rifle, I would have taken one.
In my case, the slug gun filled the freezer.

[/quote] Back to your first post, where you said you didn't know how a 30-30 could be more effective. What if the shots were around 200 yards rather than 40 or 60?
[/quote]

To answer your question dead is dead. A 30-30 would not have left the critters any deader than that 20 gage.

Regarding the yardage. This is used in SE PA and there are not too many places where you'll get a 200 yard shot. BUT do some research on the 220. Two hundred yards is not out of the question for the 220 with a slug like the AccuTip.

Not if you hunt in the Special Regulations Area. Shotguns only for now.

"Not out of the question," there's a ringing endorsement.

I grew up in central NY when it was shotgun only. Started with a 20 gauge Ithica Deerslayer . killed my first 56 deer with shotguns. NY went to rifles and so did I. Rifles are absolutely better at all ranges. The best thing about starting with shotguns is you learn how important proper form and technique in shooting are. A side benefit is recoil tolerance. I am now a 35 caliber junky with a Mannlicher affliction. Life is a strange and wonderful journey.

I am an avid handgun hunter as well. Another issue I have is the regs to not specifically authorize the use of handguns in the county. Some of the local wardens I have queried to me that it was not authorized The other local warden to me that if it was not forbidden in the regs than it was OK. Richmond said it was up to the local authorities. Less range and power than a muzzleloader or a slug gun... Should be good. I think straight walls should be included too.They give us a generous season but tie our hands with the tooling. I asked for both authorizations when the state website asked for input.

.30-30, always. Even though I live in a shotgun zone (recently changed to follow the straight wall craze), I never hunt here except occasionally during the primitive weapons season (notice I didn't say "muzzle loader season"- inlines make a mockery of the original intent of that, but is a discussion for another day). I journey a couple hours to haunt "the deer woods" and wouldn't think of taking a shotgun, no matter how efficient they and their ammunition have become. Old habits and attitudes die hard, I suppose. Besides, I like the .30-30 a lot, especially if in platforms other than M94's and 336's.

The .30-30 is extremely versatile in terms of feeding - I load everything from 100 grain cast lead plinkers at pistol velocity up to 190 grain flat nosed cast lead stompers that exceed factory jacketed performance, and everything in between including some jacketed stuff. .30-30 accuracy off the bench is top notch if employed in the proper platform. And it'll even kill a deer. A 20 gauge with rifled barrel pales in comparison in those regards which I guess is the real reason I would opt for the .30-30 over it.

One time out in the Bush, I took a moose with a 12 gauge, slug, single bead, smooth bore barrel. It's what I had, rifles being 300 miles away. At 35 yards it worked perfectly. That doesn't mean it is more effective, much less preferred over rifle.

And no, beyond 100 yards or so, a shotgun is never "better" or even equal over a rifle for big game, or even inside that range,unless required.

I know you say you don't like recoil but a 20ga shotgun is on the higher end of 'rifle' recoil at around 20-25lbs/ft.
https://chuckhawks.com/shotgun_recoil_table.htm

A 30-06 is going to be around 20lbs/ft of recoil, 308 around 16-18lb/ft, and 30-30 around 10-12lb/ft.
https://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

Another consideration is that 30WCF rifles tend to be predominantly lever action, (more expensive, and generally less accurate than a bolt gun though how much that matters at 100 is debatable).
A savage 10/110 (not even the axis series) could be found with a decent scope combo (Apex hunter package I believe) for around the same price. And any of the above calibers would offer more versatility, but possibly less cool factor, of the lever 30-30.


If you really want to stay that low on recoil but want the capability of a full rifle cartridge the 7mm-08 is a great choice. Basically a necked down 308 to 7mm, achieves flatter trajectory, and minimal difference in game effectiveness and recoils not much more than the 30WCF, and notably less than even the 308. Factory ammo is generally very good in normal times.

We called them "girl guns" or "women's guns" around here, not as a derogatory term, but because they were very well suited to recoil sensitive individuals, those of smaller stature, or just those that didn't want 308, and offered fantastic ballistics with almost no compromise.

Its not up to the local game warden or official to decide whats legal or not. They dont have that authority. The authority lies within the state game commission and the regulations put forth and published. The local fish cop doesnt get to interpet or dicatate laws and methods of taking game or hunting. Go by the regulations.

While I understand what you are saying and agree with you. I was not able to escalate it that high. I called the state office and posed the question. They directed me to talk to my local wardens. Three of them gave me two different answers because the regulations to no make specific mention of the use of handguns. I have written a letter to the state game office and requested an official response.

I hear you. Their regulations are all over the map and like you mentioned, I’ve asked wardens the same questions and gotten different answers a few times myself.

I'd choose the 30-30 every time unless prohibited by local laws.

Do you "need" a 30-30? Only you can determine that.

Although I have a lot of other options, my 30-30 is going nowhere.

Why is the 20 GA compared to the 30-30? It limits you.

If you don't have a 30-30, then consider a 308 Win, 6.5 CM, 270 Win, or 30-06. I love my Marlin 336a 30-30, but I would rather have a good 308 Win (6.5 Cm, 270 Win or 30-06) than a 30-30...just more range and more versatile.

A 20 gauge with a rifled barrel and a scope with good ammo is a rock solid 150 yard deer rig. A 30-30 is cheaper to feed, but for the price of a new rifle, you could buy a bunch of sabot slugs.

Ron

Can't be serious question.
Question can't be serious.

I do appreciate all the responses. Gives me food for thought.
I am a shotgun shooter & don’t know much about rifles. (Isn’t it obvious).
My 20ga Ithaca 37 seems to do what I need: IC bird bbl for grouse/woodcock & skeet/sporting clays. Rifled Deerslayer bbl for deer.
Saw an attractively priced 30-30 Savage 340 at my LGS, which generated my initial post. (of course it is gone now).
Again I do appreciate all of you taking the time to give me your thoughts. -Jim