Hi all,

Though my entry into the 41 caliber class of rifle is fairly limited at only six years, I have some observations I'd like to share:

One of the most desirable functions in my world, is to anchor very large bull moose where they are, as I'm the one who has to process this animal. Its my back and knees, which are very sore after three one year tours in the Iraq war as an Army Engineer.

I agree with Doctari that on very large game, the best window of velocity for penetration is 2200 fps-2500 fps. I understand that African game are different, but these Yukon bulls will stop many bullets. The terrain is remote, and there is no help of a crew or a landcruiser. When bulls that are in full rut are called in, they are all hopped up on hormones and rage.

Fatally hit bulls can cover some serious ground for just a few more seconds. I build boats for primarily moose hunters, so I see and hear alot of feedback. This, in combination with my direct experiences, I can honestly say that a 41 caliber is not out of place, or excessive for Alaskan game.

Along rivers, it only takes seconds for fatally hit bulls to stumble into the swift river and die. Only to get stuck in a wood pile up or under a cut bank. I prefer to hit square in the front end. Not soley lung shots, and certainly not neck shots.

My last two bulls died within feet of either a swift cut bank, or an oxbow swamp.

All my biggest bulls were taken with a 358 Winchester using 275 grain Woodleighs at 2200 fps, 9.3x62 Mauser using 300 grain swift A-frames at 2300 fps and more recently, a 41caliber wildcat off the 9.3 case shooting 350 grain A-frames at 2230 fps.

With the 358 and 9.3, generally there is no reaction from the big bulls and I'll pump a second one into them while they're still moving. They tip over quite fast after shot number 2. In one special case, the 358 winchester did instantly down a massive bull with one head-on shot that clipped the vertebrae as it entered high in the chest. Brief run-down of my experiences with the ole nine-three and the 358:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13539716/1

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/15870698/savage-99#Post15870698

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13268585/1


This year, a 350 grain, .410 A-frame instantly anchored a rut-charged bull on the first shot. It was more immediate than I've ever experienced. The anchoring effect is prevalent. The recoil was unnoticeable in the moment.

This rifle was 8.5 lbs with scope:

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/13233780/3

My older 9.3x62 carbine was 8.25 lbs scoped. My latest 416 Ruger is 8.3 lbs scoped.

This immediate anchoring of a rut charged bull on the dry bank, is not something I'm going to walk away from. It comes at a price, and the recoil is severe when sighting in or at the bench. In slow motion camera footage of me shooting these light 41 caliber rifles, they actually recoil and twist into your shoulder as the bullet rotates down the rifling. Full wrap checkering is a good thing.

I honestly can't shoot no more than 9-15 full power rounds in three shot groups in a single session, with either of these two mentioned 41 cal rifles. If I go past that, I have severe pain in my neck and shoulder for the rest of the day. An occasional head ache too.

I don't think a lightweight 400 whelen or 416 Ruger is a rifle for new moose hunters. Better to start with a 338-06, 35 whelen, 358 Winchester, 9.3x62 etc.

Secondary observations:

A fixed 2.75 x Burris or fixed 2.5 x Leopold gathers plenty of light in the dimmest first light. The course crosshairs show up very well. The extended eye relief of these two gems is perfect for the level of recoil. In my environment, the lightweight of these 6-7 ounce scopes is a bonus, and the magnification is plenty for typical ranges of calling bulls to YOU.

Recovered 350 grain A frame and 300 grain A-frames from the last two bulls:

The old bison hunters knew what was up with big, relatively slow bullets. Cool analysis, thanks for posting.

Clockwork,
I used to be quite dismissive of the 41s in my younger years. I thought they were overkill and uneeded. They're good outfits for anchoring Alaskan game where they are. The slow velocity combined with good bullets, doesn't appear to blood-shot the meat like a high velocity cartridge.

I'm looking forward to testing the 400 grain DGX bonded bullet. Doctari says good things about them:

https://youtu.be/EIsUw2j86DY

Mainer, always appreciate your posts. 👍

Surprised the 6.5 buttfuuck crowd hasn’t chimed in. Grin

Haha Jud the deer ham I cooked today was taken with a creedmoor. It sits between a 30-30 and a 280 in the safe, across from a 9.3x62.

Jud and clockwork,

A scoped 416 shooting 400 grain bullets at Rigby velocities, from a rifle that is within 6 ounces of Jack O'Connors #2 270 is "specialized" to say the least.

It is not a pleasant experience from home. But very pleasant on some remote wild river when that big warrior bull comes to the call

While empirical data is good...

One point - does not define a curve.

Keep us posted.


P.S. Try the 9.3x62/286 gr. A-Frame, at ~ 2400 fps.




GR

Mainer, how’s it you ended up with a .416 Ruger when you were earlier disparaging Hornady brass? Just curious what changed your mind.

I don't know why , but the first thing
that came to mind for thump'n moose
was .358 STA.




Id like to hear the qualified science behind that.

Empirical data and scientific modelling reveals that
higher Vel. with certain types of expanding projectiles
results in greater penetration.

PA, that Hornady brass definitely ain't no 9.3x62 Lapua or Norma brass. Less spring back if you pull a bullet. Have to size back down to get back neck tension. No need on the Lapua.

If crimping using the die, shoulder area is softer and will distort if crimp be too much. Never had this issue with Lapua brass. Could crimp as heavily as I deemed proper.

Anymore, it's Lee factory crimp die working with the Hornady brass.

Slight ejector marks using factory 416 Ruger and 338 RCM Hornady rounds. So probably a bit soft the whole way through.

Though finicky, I can work with it.

Us handloaders find these finicky things and adjust fire. Like that 9.3 rcbs die that was improperly sizing your 9.3 brass. After your case head separation on a fired case, you made some sobering adjustments.

I had another recent, finicky handloading issue with some PRVI 9.3 brass:

Some brass had too thick of a rim to fit into my hand priming tool.

Few years back:
Had some Winchester 358 win brass that had such loose primer pockets, you could press the cci primers into the brass with your finger tip.

Makes sense. You're absolutely right about the privi 9.3 rims. Come to find out my lee shell auto prime and press shell holders were too tight in tolerances for many of them. After dad died I inherited the old Forster Co-ax press, which solved that issue for cheap 9.3 brass. I love that old press.

I got a batch of soft winchester .300wsm brass back around '10 or '11 that had horrific ejector marks with the same load that had worked well for years.

mainer, I love to read your posts as they are well written and based on experience. Makes me feel like I'm there with you. :-)

A good write up Michael!

I gotta stop in your shop one of these days.

Vern,

Lots going on, 3 22 ft freighters, and a custom Honda efi igx800 motor that will be powering one of the freighter canoes.

Great thread, Mainer as always. I'm surprised none of the "bullet placement is all that matters" brigade hasn't chimed is that just about ANY caliber will suffice as long as the bullet is placed in the right spot. Me. I like the way you think. Whenever I make it up there and based on what friends have told me (and what I've heard), my 340 Weatherby Weathermark with 225gr TTSXs is my plan. Thoughts?

Thanks for the interesting post.

I’ve got the Ruger Alaskan, .416 Ruger with a Leupold 1.5x5 on it. Love that gun. No I impressive feats with it yet, just water jugs & one doe antelope.

For fun shooting & lighter game (like the antelope) I find a 350 gr. Speer over 79-80 gr. of Varget to be nearly pleasant in recoil. Shoots close to the same poi of the heavier 400 gr. Factory level stuff.

PA, that's purdy darn cool your father was a handloader. Must be a meaningful experience knocking out good nine three and 416 Taylor ammunition on a family heirloom.

Jorgel, geeze if I had that kinda case capacity on a 338 caliber, I'd probably load 275 grain swift A-frames to around what a 338 win mag would launch a 250 grainer. I'd find an extruded powder that yeilded decent velocity from a 22 inch barrel. My gunsmith charges about $40 to cut and crown.

Anteloper,
Sounds like good practice, with your big bore. You ever hunt those shiras moose down your way?

Not yet...

Thanks Jud, You just probably ruined my damn keyboard with coffee spray! RJ

Mainer, thanks for the post and your experiences. I'm planning on a Canada moose hunt in Sept. '22 and you are helping me with some decisions.

Mainer, first let me say essayons! Love these type of wright ups and will dig into the linked ones later this evening. I read all the hunting and gun mags and my favorite authors base there knowledge on experience not just math. Heath, Aagaard, Barsness, Seyfried, that type. It seems I can only live my north country adventures vicariously through others. Keep it up.

I've had the same issue with 9.3 PRVI cases not fitting my Lee hand primer shell holder. Standard RCBS shell holders work fine so mine get primed on the Rock Chucker IV.

I know this is a dated thread, but it's why I joined the campfire. Two years ago I had Manson build a reamer for a 411-284! I built the rifle on a 1910 Mexican mauser and found a .411 barrel, of fairly heavy contour and put together a 22" barrel, fiberglass stock with a 4x Weaver post scope. I get 2230 fps with a 350 gr Hawk bullet for 4 shots with a magneto speed. I have only taken 1 mule deer with it, but it was a DRT with no bloodshot meat at 110 yards. obviously no bullet recovery. IMR 4895 is the powder, and Norma 284 brass.

A great combination of cartridge and bullet. The 225 TSX will shoot through both shoulders of a 50+ inch bull from a 338 win mag.

The one moose hunt I've been on I took my Winchester Classic Stainless in 338 Win Mag.... I have always loaded 225 Partitions and Hornady Spire points in my 338's and had great results from them on elk and bear and in Africa on everything...

I'll never forget my guide behind me calling in a moose. I walked across the trail we had just drove our ATVs up a few minutes before and I threw up my rifle and shot him in the shoulder. He dropped like a sack of potatoes and my guide was behind me yelling "Je$u$ F C...., what the hell are you shooting, I've never seen that happen before".... I had to smile as this was my first moose and I wasn't quite sure what to expect. My son had shot one the day before with his 300 Weatherby at around 250 yards and we had to follow it for about a hundred yards before we put it down.

WIth big animals like that I believe there is no such thing as too much gun or bullets, especially if you are hunting in an area where you want them down quickly. The area we were hunting was pretty boggy, so we didn't want them to wander off into the swamp...

Comen, thats a purdy darned cool wildcat yah got there. Before I created the 41 O&M (Occumpaugh and Manzo) off the 9.3x62 case, I had created a 416 wildcat off the 338 RCM case back in 2011. It was called the 416 wicked thumpa

It looked like an overgrown 358, next to a 358:

"wildcat off the 9.3 case shooting 350 grain A-frames at 2230 fps."

I like your idea, but why not just up the weight of the 9.3 to some 325 Norma Oryx bonded bullets?

I'm shooting them at 2,330 out of a 22" 1/10" twist barrel.

"Norma 325 grain Oryx, burning N550 62.0 grains, all just under an inch.
2,339
2,331
2,318 "

Su, I bet thats ah potent handload. I was getting 2310 fps with reloader 10x. It was a lever action, so didn't want to get too high up there in pressure.

The next logical step, was a 416 Ruger, to counter my never ending desire to have an original 10.75x68 Oberndorf sporting mauser. I shouldn't even type 10.75x68........or I start droolin and dreamin.....and wishin......

I like it! I didn't have to change the bolt face or the rails and it feeds great. The short mauser lets me run COAL out so I set overall at 2.885 inches. The bullet seats to the base of the neck, and 56.5 gr of IMR 4895 fills right to the base of the bullet with no compression. You have to hang onto it or the triggerguard will bite your second finger!

Given the large number of Winchester classics built for WSMs, I think the .416 WSM is a pretty ideal wildcat in this space. It's just a rebore of any .270, 300, or 325 WSM. You should be able to get 2300-2350 for a 400gr in a 24" with a full pressure but temp-insensitive load. So a 404J clone almost exactly.

Do you know of anyone doing 416 rebores?

Good question... My understanding is Jim Dubell died. JES doesn't list 416, but says to call for other bores. Similarly Wayne York doesn't list 416.

So I guess I don't know. In addition to the above Al Siegrist, John Taylor and Randy Selby would be people I'd call. If none of them do it, I'd guess one of them would would know who does (if anyone).

I think when you get down to it anyone capable of drilling and cut rifling a .416 barrel is capable of doing it if they want to.

Reboring to 41 caliber kind of limits you to which rifles have enough meat. In my case, the browning 95 in 30-06 had a medium contour. It was HEAVY.


For my 41 wildcat off the 338 RCM, the most logical choice would be a 338 or 300 RCM guide gun. The barrel countour was too heavy on those, compared to the original 338 RCM carbines. Perfect......

In my experience with the 416 caliber, I have found that 400 grain bullets at 2150 or so feet per second to be far more tolerable than the higher speeds. At the distances at which I might shoot something with a 416, the loss in feet per seconds wasn't a concern.

Longspurhnter,

I agree with you there. If I had possession of a 338 RCM guide gun, it would immediately get rebored to 41 cal, my 416 Ruger would be sold.

But the 416 Ruger has saved me from the madness and expense of time and money........of wildcats.

Never shot a moose but killed two bison, quickly, with the 9.3x62mm. Have since moved on to the .45-70.

And I just killed a huge 46” Cape Buffalo with my 9.3x66 (370 Sako Mag.) in Zambia this summer. He died after only one shot with a 286 gr. NP in the boiler room. Velocity of that round is 2,589 fps. I was a bit nervous with that round as I usually use SAFs on DG, and have never taken a Buff with that caliber, but it was the rifle and load I had in my hands. All’s well that ends well I guess. I now have much more respect for both the caliber and the bullet than I had before, and I have always respected the NP a lot…on big PG. Now I know.

Thanks Mainer, this follows all I have thought about this aspect of hunting ballistics. Take care brother, RZ.

41 caliber seems quite popular in Alaska. While living in S.Africa, a fellow did a global search and had me buy & ship him two sets of 416 Taylor dies (which apparently have a good following in Alaska). 416 Rigby & Ruger, yep heard of them, but not Taylor. Until now.

Thanks for the insight Mainer.

I have
I've heard of the .416 Taylor. The late John Wooters did a good article in Handloader many years ago.
More gun than I needed at the time. I did however build a .375 Taylor on a Ruger M77 tang safety rifle. Dar thing split the stock soon after the build so I glass bedded it into a Ramline stock which has held up just fine. Same power and ballistics as the .375 H&H in a slightly shorter and somewhat lighter package.The cartridge works quite well with H4350 and 270 and 300 gr. bullets. Accuracy in the Ramline was surprising good, As with all cartridges in that ilk, especially in a 7.5 pound rifle recoil is quite stout. I original plan for the rifle was a dark timber elk hunt in very steep up and down country. Scope is an old all steel Lyman 4X with post and crosshair reticle. FWIW, making cases from .458 Win. Mag. is a lot easier that necking up .338 Win. mag. brass. Just a run through the sizing die and very slight trim, just enough to square the case necks.
PJ

Your .410 wildcat sounds similar to a 400 Whelen. What led you to base if off a 9,3x62 vs a plain old 06 case? If I understand correctly they are very similar.

I thought about a 400 Whelen a while back for cast bullets. It looked like about the right case to get to the speeds I wanted with cast and I figured that extra diameter would give me an advantage on game over a 375. Then I realized it would be a lot easier for me to get a 416 ruger and just down load it a bit. I'd have more bullet options when i want to run jacketed. So, I've had an eye out for a ruger 416 Alaskan for a while.

Just a few years after the 300 wsm came out a friend of mine that ran a pawn shop in Rupert idaho had an M70 rebarreled to 416 wsm. Iirc he was shooting speer 350g magtips and said he planned to use it to shoot wild hogs. It looked pretty cool but whenever I think big bores and potentially dangerous game I worry about reliability and feeding and that's not where short mags tend to shine.
(
The older DG rounds designed for bolt guns like the 9.3x62 and 375 h&h had a decent amount of body taper and not too steep of shoulder angle which seems like a good idea.

I've heard the 400 whelen doesn't have enough shoulder to headspace reliably without being improved a bit but I don't think the case is much different than what you are using.

I've always loved 30-06 for fit and function. They just feed slick, stack nice in the mag box and extract well. Although I'm a pretty big 280 ai fan, I realize there are some better features of the plain old 280. So, to me the improved isn't an improvement in some ways. I'm guessing a 400 whelen and your wildcat are both blown out a bit at the shoulder and have less taper than a standard 30-06 case and maybe a steeper shoulder. Seems like they'd have to be to have a working shoulder.

I still think one of my jc Higgins model 50s, rebarreled to 400 whelen at 20" with maybe a 4 contour, definately something lighter than rugers 416's come with, would be a fun launching platform for cast bullets. Five in the mag that will feed slick launching 400g's at around 2100 should get some things done.

I'd be interested to know the difference between your wildcat and a 400 Whelen and if anyone here has done a 400 Whelen.

Bb

Medriver and Mart have done the .400 Whelen.

Burley boy, I went 9.3 because it was too easy to form cheap prvi brass and there was no fire forming like the 400 whelen requires.

The 9.3x62 case had nowhere near the taper of the 30-06 case, so a simple neck-up was all that was needed.

I actually despise reloading, its fkn boring, skilless and tedious. I'd rather be running dog teams, river boats and ported muscle saws. I don't have time for anything more than necking up brass.

Burleyboy, the .400 will do what you want it to as a cast bullet rifle. Headspace is not a problem if you get the Petrov/G&H reamer with a .458” shoulder.

Mainer’s .410 wildcat on the 9.3 case is the easy button case wise. The .416 Ruger is the easier button and the Ruger Alaskan looks identical to what I would build if starting from the ground up. I have one in .375 Ruger and they are great rifles.

The .400 Whelen is for those of us that like dicking around with forming cases, looking for components and trying to get rifles to feed reliably. Mine was a PITA but now feeds like it should with the bullets I want to shoot, mostly 300-360 grain jacketed bullets. If you find cylindrical brass it is a very straight forward process.

Mine has a fairly short throat so round nose 400 grainers and a lot of cast bullets are seated deeper than I like but have still safely tested 400 grainers up to 2138 from my 21” barrel. I run 360 North Forks at very similar speeds to Mainers A Frame 350 load using his recommended RL10X.

If you want to build a .400 on a specific action, I recommend making up some dummies (I can help with that) and running them through your rifle. I have ran various rounds through Winchester, Mauser, Montana and Ruger CRF actions. Some feed. Some don’t. I am sure most can be made to work but always easier if they just do without any screwing around. They have almost all worked good in push feed actions that I have tried.