Afternoon all,

Figured I would ask here since a lot of you folks have actually laid down big game with the 6.5mm cartridges of all sorts and it will generate something besides "I heard", "I read" and "everyone knows" which....ain't worth much.

Have you ever noticed a difference in blood trail between the 6.5mm cartridges and 30 cal cartridges? Specifically 6.5x55 Swede and 308/30-06 with things like bullet selection being equal?

I know if you put either in the right place, nothing will ever know the difference. But my only 6.5mm kill was a good sized Quebec doe with a 120mm ballistic tip and a case of H1000 (was what I had at the time) put through the shoulder from broadside. That deer was down on the ground within sight of the shot and before you could say "boo" but the bullet did not exit. Heck of a lot of damage inside it though, no wonder it was dead so riki tik.

So, for you guys who do it a lot....if it ever didn't go so well and it came down to tracking...do 30 cal holes leak more?

In my experience, the .30cal holes do leak a bit more, typically. This assumes similar bullet construction. Even with a .30cal, I still will get some headscratchers at times. On average, I have had fairly good blood trails with the 6.5 stuff when using bonded bullets that expanded well.

Very cool! And I know what you mean about how sometimes, that is just the way it goes.

Thinking 130gr Fed Terminal Ascent (their trophy bonded tip type) or 120, 127gr TTXS/LRX and 300 yards or under, emphasis on usually under.

Probably not what I will be shooting this season, but just wanted to ask.

I have used a 260 Rem since 2004 or so. A few times I have used something else, but mostly that. I lost 1 deer to it due to blood trail petering out. Shot felt good, deer was 60 yards away, using a 140 Accubond. May have made a bad shot, don't know. Most kills with the 260 have gone down within sight, so really no need to trail. The other caliber I have had some experience with is the 35, either in the 35 Rem or the 358 Win. I would say that the 35 caliber holes tend to leak more, but the deer do not die any more quickly. The 260 puts meat in the freezer pretty easily. The biggest blood trail I ever have seen on a deer that I shot was a 45/70 with a 420 grain bullet that I cast myself. It had a very wide flat meplat. Talk about painting the ground! Deer made it 10 yards. Beauty of it was there was very little wasted meat, no bloodshot meat, dime sized going in, quarter sized going out. That flat meplat sure hit hard!
All these were in Pa woods so all under 100 yards

Blood trails are for bad hits or arrows...

I would not expect a 120 gr Ballistic tip to exit after a double shoulder shot

I use a 5.6 Swede with 130 gr AB's on pronghorn and the blood trail is usually less than ten feet from where the goat was hit as it is lying there.

30 cal.a lot of elk again,no long blood trail.

Three longest tracking jobs was an elk I hit with a 7mag 160 gr Sierra MK , and a buck deer with same. Trails were 1mile+ . Bad shooting on my part.The other was a cow elk that someone had hit with a .270. mile plus.It turned out to be gut shot.

A lot depends on the location of the hit low body cavity more blood comes out faster than high hit which takes longer for the body cavity to fill up before it starts leaking out.

6.5or 30 cal, same velocity, same construction, same weight,same hit location, will most likely yield the same blood trail

"A lot depends on the location of the hit low body cavity more blood comes out faster than high hit which takes longer for the body cavity to fill up before it starts leaking out.

6.5or 30 cal, same velocity, same construction, same weight,same hit location, will most likely yield the same blood trail."


This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

My 300wm used to bowl little bodied TX deer over when hit in the shoulder. My 6.5cm had one run about 40 yards with liquified heart and lungs. It hemorraged where it fell and looked like the prom scene from Carrie. Both deer were equally dead, the 300wm just seemed to wreak a little secondary bone damage on the off shoulder. But the 6.5 was much closer shot with a bonded bullet so I'm not surprised it passed through easier.

Not a Fan of blood trails and i never shoot a deer or anything else with a blood trail in mind, no matter what chamber and bullet the rifle i am shooting has, DRT is my goal with every shot,and i never depend on blood trails. but i keep a tracking dog handy, just in case I need him. Rio7

Guys, I promise I’m not being smart.

I have many pix to illustrate I’m telling the truth.

IF you hit them in a FEW spots (1shot only), they DROP right where they are and
the only blood is ON the ground right there.

Below ear, Center neck, HI shoulder (spine) OR Spinal cord farther back.
I have pix of each of those—-no trailing.

You must know your trajectory intimately. It’s been a long time since I blood trailed a WT.

Good Luck

Jerry

I would think it would largely depend on if you created an exit hole or not....

Don't forget the autonomic plexus. Works very fine too.

My son was watching when I shot this Pronghorn in the shoulder at 235 yards with my .308. He said "you did it again"
I asked what?
He said shot it in the shoulder! Why do you do that?
I replied I do not like trailing wounded game.




The bullet actually hit the right shoulder and exited behind the left shoulder. Mattered not - broken shoulder really slows them down and is usually fatal PDQ.

There's more than just bullet diameter at play regarding blood trails.

Sectional density plays a big role in this discussion. Blood trails are bigger when there is both an entry and exit bullet hole. Higher S.D. would yield more penetration.

There is bullet construction ( rapidly expanding bullet like a Ballistic Tip, vs. Partition, or monometal), lead core hardness, and jacket thickness).

There is bullet velocity at impact. Excessive velocity causes bullets to expand fully and fast, creating increased frontal cross section /frontal.area, which decelerates a bullet faster than a bullet partially expanded- with a smaller frontal area. It is possible to have a bullet with a lower impact velocity to have more penetration, compared to the same bullet at a faster impact velocity. If the lower impact velocity bullet has limited expansion ( less frontal area), it will decelerate less, and penetrate deeper. For example, the best penetrating bullet is a FMJ - which has minimal frontal area expansion, and can whistle through a game animal at low impact velocity, and cause a "two- hole blood trail."

For "blood trail" discussion ( not "drop dead right there" shot placement to the CNS) more factors than bullet diameter need to be included.

Yup looks like a gawd awful place to track game.

I just wave the crosshairs across the animal’s front half and yank the trigger. Then they run off into the briars. Meat tastes better when you work for it.

Tracking may not be an issue but no need to drag farther than you have to.

About 5# actual good meat max lost on a shoulder shot.

Create a good hole so you don't need a tracking dog.

I've shot deer with a 264 win, 260, 6.5 creed. 6.5 swede and several with various 30 cal. I've not had to track any with the 6.5s except for one buck that was running when I shot it with my 264 with a 140g Hornady interlock launched at 3200.

I first I thought I might have missed when we got to where it was and there was no trail. It was only about 150 yards out at the shot and wasn't running very fast so I followed the tracks in the dirt about 100 yards and found the buck dead. No blood trail but it was a high lung shot. It had about a quarter size exit but it was up high enough that the blood didn't really come out.

Several of my friends in Africa prefer at least a 30 cal claiming it leaves a better blood trail. I think there are too many variables to break it down.

One of the fastest dropping bucks I've shot was about 12 years ago. I just built a custom in 6.5 Creedmoor back before anyone was really making one. I hit a nice 4x4 muke deer at about 220 yards in tight right behind the shoulder. It dropped instantly and was done. There was a small exit where part of the bullet exited.

I also dropped another mule deer like lightning about 15 years ago with my little carbon barreled 260. That was with a 130g accubond at a MV of 2900 fps. That deer was running about 175 yards out when I hit it through the lungs it did a flip and crashed dead. That bullet did massive damage with a large exit. I still take that little 5 pound 260 loaded with the same 130g ABs as a back up on a lot of hunts.

Bb

I disagree, but it's conditional.

I shoot behind the shoulder, double lung and heart most of the time. I have the land, neighbors, and luxury of not losing a deer that runs a little. 45/70 placed like that = Stevie wonder can track it. And you lose zero meat.

That said, anything needing to go down NOW gets hit on bone. But you often lose a lot of the front quarter(s).

So, to the OP's question: I have noticed a little difference between .308 and 6.5CM with similar shots at similar distances. Not enough to matter tracking, but enough to notice. That said, I've only shot two with my 6.5, so not a big sample.

Hornady Whitetail Hunter factory ammo in the 6.5 and 180g hand loaded with the .308

Yeah, my lexus is automatic.
Got tired of clutching. grin

Jerry

What are the advantages of blood trailing ?

Jerry

The potential for better blood is with a bigger hole.

Jerry, where I hunt you don’t often get the chance to ponder shot placement, as usually the deer are walking, sometimes at a good clip (I don’t take running shots). Usually they’re pretty close, but still the safest shot is tight on the shoulder no more than 1/3 of the way up. The shots you mention are just not offered with enough time (for me) to pull off with certainty. Even with heart and lungs shattered, deer can go a ways, and in heavy cover I need all the blood trail I can get. With two holes, you’ll get blood and hair at or near where the deer was standing at the shot which helps evaluate the hit, and you also get blood on trees and leaves, spray if you’re lucky. Blood drops on the ground can be hard to see on the forest floor with all the other colors, but red on grass, low branches, and tree trunks is easy.

I’ve told this before, but ten years ago in a pouring rain, I hit a buck with a .270 at about 40 yards, halfway up his chest. He swapped ends and ran off. There wasn’t a drop of blood anywhere. I went back to my spot, hoping for another opportunity, convinced I’d missed. A couple hours later, my son came through on his way out, and we look again at the spot the deer was standing at. Maybe twenty feet back, I found a clump of hair on the ground. Knowing I had made a hit, I took up the trail in the leaves. No blood, just disturbed leaves. After more than 100 yards, I saw him lying in about a foot and a half of water in a pool formed in the gully by all the runoff. When I opened him up, his lungs were mush, but the bullet, a 130gr IL, hadn’t made it through. All the blood had collected in the chest below the entrance wound. Now I try very hard to hit them well below the curve of the chest so the blood starts leaking quickly, and hopefully the heart gets hit too, or sometimes even cut free. I also use bullets that make two holes reliably.

Pappy

I have been in those same circumstances and your 10 year example, almost identical circumstances

ONLY I shot him with a 7 RM while it was raining. There was blood on the ground in some water ---- THAT'S all
and NO blood trail. I had to crawl thru underbrush until I 'accidently' stumbled upon him.

Where I've been hunting since 2012 it is family property and I am the ONLY 1 with permission to hunt it. I hunt
every day I possibly can till AFTER Christmas but I can't put pressure on the deer so they are going about their natural
business.

The reason I began shooting CNS is too often I'm close to a property fence and I can't hunt the other side SO I need
stop the death run.

I have 1 pic that illustrates that perfectly. The doe was within feet of the fence DOA.
UNfortunately that along with other pix are KIDNAPPED by Photopukeit for ransom. I can upload to my
computer ONE AT A TIME so I just don't do it.
I AIN'T paying them.

I really like CNS shots for multiple reasons.

Here are a few examples -- look for either blood or bullet holes.



The bullet almost exited the hide -- on back line. 30-06 165 HBTSP
The blood at his mouth is ALL the blood trail .



No comment necessary



Notice BULGED eyeballs. He was walking straight away and my ONLY shot was back of the neck. The bullet ranged
upward, cracked his skull and knocked his L antler loose. It's against the gate cable to hold it up.

Last pic now.



That's bullet ENTRY, he collapsed. 30-06, 165 BTSP.

I do like Model Sixes and WOOD stocks too.

Jerry

With everything else being equal, Simple physics dictates a bigger hole will leave more blood.

Will a bigger or smaller pipe allow more water flow?

I have shot critters with 22 to 50 caliber, bigger holes bleed more.

This what I was thinking ^^^ Fluid Dynamics.

You don't need a blood trail until the day you need one. On that day it's better to have one. No experience with 6.5s. Know beyond doubt the .22 and .24 CFs do not reliably produce blood trails. Good killers? Yes.

Context is important. Guy shooting in open cover able to pick plexus shots or, at least, watch a death sprint over just the first 50-100 yds is not in the same galaxy with a guy sitting on a stump within a dense Maine cedar swamp....most likely having a 1/3 chance at a deer bounding past during an four week season. Yes, those are the numbers and yes, there's a reason dogs find many each year. Have that t-shirt and DVD.

Paddy, this is pretty much exactly why I was asking, spot on.

Jerry, that has a lot of merit! When its the case, like if I am shooting from a blind/stand with a decent rest (I usually cut a forked sapling to the proper height) I'll be happy to try a high shoulder/neck shot and we'll see how it goes....but it may well come down to the kind of shooting Pappy mentions and I ain't the best at putting a round through a neck/high shoulder from offhand unsupported under all field conditions....but will if I can

Those are some wonderful deer you have taken there! Great hunting.

Thnx Igloo


Jerry

Yeah....but you should test your theory on big deer.... ...grin....

Very nice roundoak.

On the 30 vs 6.5, I've shot a lot of deer with 150 grain ballistic tip .308's (out of a .308 win, .226 sectional density) and the 129 accubond long range (.264 sectional density) out of a 6.5 CM. Many are from treestands and often double lung shots...which seem to bleed well with the lower exit wound. At any rate, the sectional densities and velocities are fairly close, both usually pass through. I really can't tell a difference in distance traveled. It has seemed that the .308's leave a bit more of a blood trail....it seems to be noticeably more.

Nothing scientific, just the way it has seemed to me.

Go heavy or go home.




GR

Shoot for bone or go home!

No wasted meat shooting behind the shoulder.

Other than that, there ain't any.

And, like I said, when it's big, bone is going bye-bye, and the deer isn't going 10 yards.

But, seriously, I understand many people don't have the luxury of location and friendly, non hunting neighbors that are fine with it if a deer runs a little and ends up on their property.

Give, it some time, follow the trail, get the deer. And I'm not screwing up some other guys hunt doing it.

goalie

I have not lost enuff meat to 'matter'. ?Maybe? a handful ?

I'd trade that small amount of meat for NOT trailing.....dragging.

You have to try it to see.


Jerry

When I hunt east Texas or on one of my Oklahoma properties a lot of time all you get is a few seconds to make the shot on a moving deer. I like blood trails, if they drop on the spot with the perfect hit great but if they go 100 yards in the thick I want a leaky blood trail. As for dragging I will usually quarter and remove the backstraps to be put in my pack and carried out. Too old to be doing much dragging. Not everybody hunts open country or over feeders.

Goin' heavy will allow you to do either.

Through the ribs or Off-side shoulder.




GR

Careful in your generalizations.

I can send pix
Farm land. Thickets
NO feeders period.

I use 6.5X55 a lot, also .308 (and other .30's) and .223. They all leave some blood, but, depending on the hit location, you might have to look hard to find it. No matter, I usually go for the high shoulder shot. Sometimes I take the tight-behind-the-shoulder shot with those calibers and count on following up to 100 yards or so....it all depends on the terrain where I'm hunting. I often use a hot rodded .45-70 (Marlin GG) shooting 400 grain Speer flat nose bullets. It seems no matter where they're hit with that they leave a lot of blood on the ground.

So does going light with a mono.

So does going light with a mono.
—————

Yes, Some have 1 rail minds.

Or even light. Never had an issue getting an 85 grain cup n core from a 243 or 6mm getting through at least 1 shoulder. Even 1 breaks a critter down right now.

Same with a 55 from a 223.

I don't know what I hit, but it was with a .308 Win., 165 grain BT at 2700 fps at about 25 yards from a treestand. Stevie Wonder could've tracked it. Deer's laying in the top-center of the pic.

My .243 never did that. If I were to complain about the .243, it would be the blood trail. It would kill the hell out of deer, they just didn't leak much.

If you've walked up a mountainside going in, lung shots are nice because they most always run downhill....so sometimes a little trailing means less dragging. If it's a rare case where I walked down the mountain then it's hard to beat busting shoulders.

The last deer I shot was hit right on the point of his right shoulder, angling back to just in front of his right thigh and found under the skin. Bullet absolutely destroyed the shoulder but didn't do a lot of damage to the lungs, some but not a lot. Deer still ran a hundred yards with almost zero blood leaking. 100 gr. Ballistic Tip from my 257 Roberts. If that had been east Texas my dog would have still found the deer, me I might not have found him. This year I am using 120 grain Partitions.

That is the kind of blood trail I like, wide and short!

Rick. No criticism.

The point of shoulder is too low for CNS and can’t
be depended on to drop a deer.

Hi Shoulder really means Spinal contact same
for Neck etc.

Jerry

Agreed but high shoulder means loosing some backstrap. That 100 gr. Ballistic tip would certainly have dropped that deer but it would have at that angle destroyed a lot of backstrap. Not to sound like Ted Nugent but backstrap is one of the reasons I shoot deer!

My response to meat loss with CNS.

Jerry

I seen a couple of deer hit right, had a large hole on the exit side, and ran around 25 yards before there was any blood and then there was a wide heavy blood trail. The deer were down a few feet after the blood trail started.

I saw that but prefer a little walking to destroying backstrap. In fact usually I take neck shots and even then have has some bloodshot travel into the backstraps. Plus I have to keep my tracking dog in shape.

I guess I have the luxury of hunting in mostly open country... no crawling through brush, they either drop right there or run a few yards... that being said, I rarely shoot once. I don't stop shooting until it's down.

Exactly...

Yes, I learned a long time ago to put the hurt on em, or shiit gets ugly... Deer get smashed through the shoulders, don't like boning em out anyway, and the stay put. Its pretty nice huntin open country for sure. Another vote for, shoot til they stop wiggling...

This deer was shot with a 308 150 gr Accubond, she bled well.


Exit wound, the bullet entered just behind the onside shoulder and exited at the back of the ribs on the offside.

Kinda like Model Sixes myself. Finally found a very nice one a few years back, updated the mounts and got it dialed in for the next guy. Satisfied my curiosity, then moved it on. It shot my standard ‘06 deer load, 150gr NP over 46gr of H4895 pretty well, just as every other rifle I’ve tried in in has. Probably should have held onto it long enough to shoot a deer, but I get itchy once a project like that is finished.

You’re lucky to have a place to hunt like that. I was too, for about 28 years, and with a good friend tossed in as well. All gone now, so it’s Public Land for me now. Bought a crossbow a few years ago so I can hunt under low-traffic conditions. I still can get some standing opportunities with that, but not all.

Learn to track and you won’t need one either, usually.

Much as I prefer DRT, an interesting tracking job is well, interesting, especially if it’s someone else’s deer to gut and drag out once the puzzle is solved.

My state just legalized tracking dogs, a good idea I suppose, but I'm out of the dog business now.

Thnx Pappy


That property belongs to my Widowed Aunt and she's in poor health. Don't know how long that will last.
I have moved (2012) back to my home stomping grounds and have relatives where I can hunt BUT under diff circumstances.

Yes, I'm VERY thankful for my hunting situation. 40 years of hunting I did NOT have this situarion.
This is my 10 tenth season here and I'm 71 so.............. who knows the future. ONE day at a time.


Jerry

[quote=roundoak]Create a good hole so you don't need a tracking dog.


----------------------------------------


Doak ! grin
I've complimented you on that deer before. YEOWZIR !!

Now.... I would NOT attempt to DRAG him now !!!!! Somehow ? I'd find a mechanical advantage to retrieve him.
One would be... I have a retired rodeo roping horse ( I'm not a roper ) but he's used to things being tied to him.
He will drag a Log or heavy fence post so......

I have a 4 wheeler so... I have a 4X4 truck so....

I AIN'T draggin a brute like that.

I ain't a wuss.... I'm OLD. .....

Jerry

I have bowhunted for 35 years. I have a little experience with trails.

I have seen it all, good, bad, and incredible blood trails.

I am also fortunate to hunt open country and the Black Hills. I can honestly say that with my firearms experience, bloodtrails are not needed to find critters and usually an anecdotal observation.

I have never experienced the nasty thickets of the south, but have experienced S Texas brush country and bloodtrailed archery killed hogs and javelina through that terrain.

I hunt the same country as CRS and public access or land. Used both 6.5's and 30's . I am a fan of behind the shoulder double lung shot with exit hole. When having to shoot at less than 90 degree angle I aim to break the far shoulder still usually getting an exit hole. I like eating venison at the ranges I typically shoot CNS shots are for stuntshooters not me. The way it is for me I don't hunt with a crowd. Mb

Bob, got any pictures ?


[quote=jwall]

Where I've been hunting since 2012 it is family property and I am the ONLY 1 with permission to hunt it. I hunt
every day I possibly can till AFTER Christmas but I can't put pressure on the deer so they are going about their natural
business.

The reason I began shooting CNS is too often I'm close to a property fence and I can't hunt the other side SO I need
stop the death run

I really like CNS shots for multiple reasons.



The bullet almost exited the hide -- on back line. 30-06 165 HBTSP
The blood at his mouth is ALL the blood trail .



No comment necessary



Notice BULGED eyeballs. He was walking straight away and my ONLY shot was back of the neck. The bullet ranged
upward, cracked his skull and knocked his L antler loose. It's against the gate cable to hold it up.



That's bullet ENTRY, he collapsed. 30-06, 165 BTSP.

Jerry


BTW bobby, I got more pictures.

I have done both. .223 with a mono destroyed a lot of meat IMO.

I guess it’s different strokes for different folks. I grew up bow hunting and I tend to shoot animals in the lungs. That means heart sometimes too. I guess I’ve lived a sheltered life that so many people hunt places that lung shot deer are too hard to find.

Sometimes ya' don't want a Bang/Flop!



ya!

GWB

Yep

Circumstances dictate.

Jerry

I never used a 223.
Type of bullets make a real difference.

Jerry

Fellas I’m NOT saying y’all are wrong..at all

I’m not trying to change your minds.

I’m just saying it works for me.

Jerry

I've killed quite a few with both calibers, but not those specific three cartridges in a way to provide direct comparison. You'd really have to use say an 120gr 6.5mm and 165gr .308 both at the same impact velocity. Not really gonna happen.

I can tell you that while a 300 win mag 165gr SST vs .260 with same does put more blood down, the .260 drops more of them on the spot with the same shot placement.

Obviously I like my 6.5s but I concede that a 30cal hole leaves an easier to track blood trail if it’s needed. This is my experience with a 308 vs a 260/6.5 Jesus.

While I'm one that agrees with you, I have to admit that there are a lot of factors that can make no/little tracking attractive, if not essential.

But, a well placed 300g bullet out of my 45/70 isn't creating a tracking "situation" that requires tip of the spear tracking skills.....

I must be crazy. I actually enjoying trailing game after the shot. I understand how some situations would warrant anchoring and animal, but most of mine do just fine with lung shots through the ribs.
Larger calibers definitely offer better blood trails, but shot placement makes more if a difference. I’ve killed deer with my 338 Fed with high lung shots ( not intentional) that ran quite a ways before leaving blood. I’ve also killed plenty with low lung shots from a 223 that left perfectly adequate blood trails, although smaller that trails a larger caliber would have produced.

I do avoid bone because that’s where the meat is.

Half the time a critter runs closer to the road, not further so that argument is a draw for me.

As far as blood trails, a solid lung hit normally won't require one though it often provides a very short one for me. I read here all the time about lung shot runners but that just isn't my experience if both lungs are hit tight behind the shoulder. They rarely go further than 20 or so yards, sometimes a bit further if they're going downhill, just like shoulder shot critters do.

One thing I have seen a few folks mention here is the bullet itself. Things like bergers designed to penetrate a few inches then explode won't do much for blood trails, whether they're needed or not. They do make for nicer, often bloodless pics though.

To answer the OP's initial question, I would assume .308 cals do make a critter bleed more than a .264 all things being equal, but not enough for me to notice.

ditto

ditto
-----------------------------

For years hunting WT the lung shot was ALL I took. I had DRTs and Run till they can't.
No predictability. I'm talking a whole lot of lung shot WT.

Jerry

Probably half the deer I've shot have been taken with a 12 ga. brenneke slug. They do penetrate.

IMO any blood trail is simply a luck thing. Hides that stretch and fat that will clog any hole you can make.
Last 2 deer with a Brenneke were a decent buck that made it probably 200 yards leaking heavy all the way. And a 100 lb doe that went 50 yards without losing a drop until she laid down

Both good hits tight behind the shoulder.

^^^^^^^^^^^ Well said, I agree ^^^^^^^^^^^^

I've never killed a big game animal with a shotgun besides one mountain lion, but that's a story for a different time. Maybe the slower velocity of slugs vs the higher velocity of modern rifle bullets is the difference?

Not in my experience.

Have used a fair number of rifles (various cartridges) on deer as well.

.243, 25-06, .260, 7RM, .300 Savage, .308, 30-06, .300 WM, .35 Rem

And I believe that having an exit does matter. Have shot a few deer with rifle bullets that didn't exit, or had multiple small exits from fragments
But even withan exit hole, a blood trail is an iffy thing IMO...

I'd guess that I've seen more deer drop quickly from fast bullets that didn't exit than from through and through shots from a premium rifle bullet, but that is as an aside. This discussion is about blood trails, and I have never seen any reason to count on having one. Shotgun or rifle...

Seen a fair few deer that didn't bleed on their feet, even with big exit wounds. Lay them down and puddles form.

JW we have more in common than initials. grin

I certainly can’t remember the years but I clearly remember gun writers saying pre internet
days the the 243/6mm cartridges accounted for more than their share of instant
drop kills.

I personally have had more I D aka DRT with FAST moving bullets.... as long as they open up
and don’t “pencil thru”.

Now back to Blood Trails.

Jerry

I've seen both good and bad blood trails from .264 and .308 holes, from a plethora of bullets at various impact velocities.
The only constant I have seen is that snow makes the sparse blood trails easy, though the only times I have needed one is when I make a poor hit.

This was not a poor hit via 200 grain Speer Grand Slam (old style) at ~200 yards from a .300 H&H. Impact velocity what...2400ish FPS? That right side would be the exit hole, right at half way up the body, tight behind the shoulder. Notice there is no blood to the left (entry hole). This I would guess is due to the expanded bullet making a bigger exit hole and "pushing" everything that direction in the body cavity? Sometimes I see blood on both sides and sometimes just one. I can't explain it.



Discuss.

I have observed bigger differences in blood trails depending on the point of impact than depending on the caliber of the bullet.

For example, a hit low in the chest will give rivers of blood while a hit high in the chest may not leave a drop in the ground until the place where the animal fall dead.

BINGO!! I observed that quite a while ago. I've had deer cavities FULL of blood until it was down then blood, blood, blood.

tinman said,

"Half the time a critter runs closer to the road, not further so that argument is a draw for me".

I understand your situation. I haven't hunted close to a road very often since 1977.
Last year I spined a Doe before she crossed a property line with a < driveway> but that was unusual for me.

Jerry

Pretty country TInman...
I wanna say that 90% of the time I'm hunting with snow on the ground, I'm calling coyotes. Of the few deer and antelope I've shot with snow on the ground, I don't recall having to track anything

We also run into property line issues here when tracking wounded game. There is no "right to pursue" without landowner permission.
The buck I mentioned hitting with the Brenneke slug? Died looking at a fence that I couldn't have crossed, legally to retrieve him

I'll put a plug in here for the OnX Huntmap APP It makes contacting landowners easier.
But it can't change a bitter old woman's mind... (story about a buddy's lost buck)

When hunting in the south GA piney woods, we like a pass-through, we've found most "dead" deer run anywhere from 0-100 yards and finding them is a lot easier with a good blood trail. We like to eat them so we typically don't blow their shoulders out if we can help it.

Nothing is guaranteed when talking blood trails, but something that will generally exit with a decent-sized hole does increase your odds of finding your deer more easily if it runs. You still have to put it in the right spot (high lungs may not leak), and even then, you'll have oddball instances where you just don't get the leakage you think you should. Having said that, the law of averages says that wrecked vitals and a good exit will help out over the long run.

Fully concur Ted, mirrors my experience exactly.

We are meat hunters & try to stay off bone (generally), .243 - 30-06, 10-100 yards at most, average around 40 yards !

Here's the other thing I'd like to see discussed by those that need a blood trail:

We hunt the boreal forest of Northwestern Ontario. Every animal I shoot that does the death run, I can see the direction it goes & more often than not, I can hear where it drops (generalization).

When Deb & Doug (.243 & 100gr fed blue box) shot their 1st WT bucks, I put them on the blood trail & told them to follow it, then walked to the area I knew they had dropped & met them at the end of the blood trail.

Yeah, I've found several deer that didn't bleed but I heard where they crashed. Is handy when your shots are close-range like that. Pays to listen to the death run if you can.

I don't doubt that at all.
I hunt open areas often where I usually see the critter drop, but have hunted enough of the east coast, north Idaho/NW Montana and the Alaskan jungle to generally be confident that I can simply walk in the same direction that the critter took off to, and normally find them piled up just out of sight, to include bow kills. No blood trail needed. With poor hits, this is all off the table of course.

I generally avoid shoulders for the exact same reason as you. I don't exactly "need" the meat but I don't go out of my way to ruin what I legally need to salvage, especially when I see zero difference in how far the critter runs. This cow elk made it 20-25 yards with an obviously broken shoulder, which is about average distance I have seen them go when both lungs are punched (excepting hits to the back and top of the lungs). That gritty bone marrow blown all over is absolutely NASTY. The bullet stayed in her and I do not recall where I ended up finding it, but it didn't break the off shoulder despite being a perfectly broadside shot. She was hit with a .340 Wby and 200 accubond at about 300 yards and if there was a blood trail at all, it wasn't enough for me to recall, nor need.


Reason #2 to avoid shoulders on perfectly broadside shots.

Agree. We haven’t had to track/trail them but they tore stuff up.

Two of last three whitetail retrievals on our place have been complicated. One was mine. Middlin' buck doing the rut thing - start/stopping. Would not have fired but for it being a cripple, so worth the risk. 150 yds, naturally moved at the shot so hit farther back than I wanted. Appreciated the placement in recoil but figured dead, and knew it after seeing plenty of blood at site. But snowstorm had commenced and light was fading. An hour later had zip, a whiteout in darkness, with no way to track. First light took the chocolate bozos out, and they found it in mere seconds. Had run downhill, across, then uphill to a higher elevation than where it started. Nearly a 3/4 circle. Dead under a snow-covered deadfall less than 100 yds linear distance slightly uphill. I would not have found it - before other critters - without canines.

Following year a permitee shot a small 8 around 200 yds with a .270. He was pretty sure of placement, but not being sure about his skills told him not to persist in the dark. Bozos did the honors again at first light; he'd made a perfect heart shot, just under 100 yd run. It had done a downhill then somewhat back up semicircle.

Don't buy absolutes concerning blood trails, and their usefulness. They may not be needed, or they can be very handy. .30s usually leave blood more reliably than .22s. But there are anecdotes to the contrary.

Zone -- you omitted the REST of the story,

[quote=Sam_H]Two of last three whitetail retrievals on our place have been complicated. One was mine. Middlin' buck doing the rut thing - start/stopping. Would not have fired but for it being a cripple, so worth the risk. 150 yds, naturally moved at the shot so hit farther back than I wanted. Appreciated the placement in recoil but figured dead, and knew it after seeing plenty of blood at site. But snowstorm had commenced and light was fading. An hour later had zip, a whiteout in darkness, with no way to track. First light took the chocolate bozos out, and they found it in mere seconds.

** > Had run downhill, across, then uphill to a higher elevation than where it started. Nearly a 3/4 circle.<***

Dead under a snow-covered deadfall less than 100 yds linear distance slightly uphill. I would not have found it - before other critters - without canines.

Following year a permitee shot a small 8 around 200 yds with a .270. He was pretty sure of placement, but not being sure about his skills told him not to persist in the dark. Bozos did the honors again at first light; he'd made a perfect heart shot, just under 100 yd run.

** > It had done a downhill then somewhat back up semicircle.
-----------------------------------------


Yes,
Fellows, they don't always run downhill. A pard shot a dandy buck in Miss. Killing shot >> ran immediately UPhill.

Jerry

I have no problem with tracking a deer. Hitting them in the DRT spots is a plus, but it doesn't make a, through the ribs, double lung blood trail a bad hit. I may have to walk a little farther, but I haven't shot up much meat and the deer is just as dead.

Ribs are wasty junk, just like chicken wings.
Too much meat on the neck to risk messing
any of it up, or risk damaging a backstrap
with splinters of bone.
JMHO- I always go for the pump house.
Animals can't live without their blood.

Just like Arnold said, if it bleeds we can kill it

All that said, I let everybody hunt like they want
to and expect the same courtesy from them

I've been shooting a 260 Remington since some people were calling it a 6.5/08. I also shoot several 30 cal rifles. I haven't noticed much difference in the amount of blood that I could attribute to the calibre of the rifle. I decided a long time ago that a hole that goes all the way through makes everything easier. I have had no problem getting that with either the 260 Remington or one of my 30 calibre rifles. Like several have said, pick your bullets for the results you want as well as the location of your shots.

As it pertains to blood trails anything one does to increase the odds of an exit leads to smaller entrance holes and less internal damage. Less internal damage leads to the need to track an animal longer.
Personally I have had 180gr ballistic tips out of a 300 rRUM my fist size entrance holes with no exit lay down more blood than a TTSX out of the same gun that did exit.

Like bullets with like shot placement, the difference is negligible. A 6.5 Creedmoor with a 120 NBT and a 308 with a 150 NBT, both with lower lung shots, paint an almost identical trail to me.

This video may have some relevance to this thread. Some....perhaps...

A shooter tests penetration of 4 various Remington or Winchester factory loaded cartridges into 10 lined-up 1 gallon water jugs.

30-30 170 grain Remington Core:Lokt
308 Win 180 grain Winchester Power Point
30-06 180 grain |Win Power Point
300 Win Mag 180 grain Power Point

Which one had the most penetration? ( = "best blood trail"?).

Guess before you watch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlzKM8VSRqc



ps: I edited this post late for the 30-30 being a Rem Core-Lokt, not a Win Power Point.

SIZE of the exit hole matters for a blood trail.

Penetration ain't all that iffn you don't have expansion

The video was fun to watch, thank you!

Those old Round Nose Core Lokts at moderate speeds were a hell of a bullet.

To make the results comparable all cartridges should have been loaded with the same bullet though the results would have been the same, with the slowest providing the less penetration and the least expansion.

The 300 WinMag, at least at such a short distance and hi impact speed has too much splashing effect for my taste.

Alvaro

Id lean on two considerations. 1st you said it well. "I know if you put either in the right place, nothing will ever know the difference. "

2nd insure good to great hunting bullet is passing through the vitals & we will enjoy very short blood trails nearly regardless the caliber we will say .24 cal & up for the sake of safety margin. Though some may argue 224 cal & up will do well to great w ideal shot placement.

One Moose, several Elk and a bunch of deer needed no tracking at all when hit with a 6.5 Creedmore or .264 WM all with 140 PP's, 140NP's or 142 ABLR'S anywhere from 50 to 500 or so yds (before rangefinders). The one thing in common were zero marginal hits! One deer just ran 100 yds or so gushing all over the place but totally in sight the entire time. One deer shot at 384 yds with a CM and 143 ELD-X needed another one to stop moving so we could get up the extremely steep hill to him but he was not going anywhere after the first shot. All bullets either exited or were found just under the hide on the off-side. One bull elk took three 165 NP's from my 300 Wea. through the heart area at 175 yds and finally dropped in his tracks but oddly never moved after the first shot. YMMV.

Thanks for all the answers and info, everyone. I appreciate it.

In the end, there was no tracking needed. I never connected with the bigger buck I was after but with time running out I took a spiker. Beats tag soup and he was a hefty one for a spiker, at least. Ended up borrowing a rifle from a friend for it. 30-06, 180 gr Hornady round nose, modest handload of about 2600 fps. Shot hit the junction of neck and shoulder and punched a rib on the way out, recovered it just about to break out of the hide on the far side.

never had a blood trail with 6.5's , just started gutting.

Very cool... "the deadliest mushroom in the woods!"

yep

It sure lived up to that, Brad! Thank you. Kinda cool that the core is still attached, that one took some abuse.

All CNS shots?

It sure lived up to that, Brad! Thank you. Kinda cool that the core is still attached, that one took some abuse.





Mac, that sounds more like a moose than an elk, standing there soaking them up!

How do you guys find the internal damage with the 6.5s on those big critters? Not a whole lot less than the 30 cals?

Yep, 129 grain Hornandy. I can’t recall where I hit them.

Those little bullets must pack quite a punch

"Splash effect" contributes greatly to killing deer pronto and also to a good blood trail. A fist size hole tends to leak a bit.

I've used that cartridge/load combo a few times, always without complaint, but never managed to catch one. Nice pic of the bullet.