I'm trying to get the forum rules straight in my mind. I recently shot a good 3 shot group from one of my pre 64 Model 70's. The group measures .122" center to center. Now here's the question: am I now allowed to refer to the this rifle as a sub 1/4" rifle forevermore even though I haven't been able to duplicate the group and most of the time it shoots .5-.75"?????
Thanks
Phil

It's got to do it "all day long"

LOL

@ 25 yds?

That just doesn't seem fair that it has to do it all day long!

The reason the smarter shooters on this forum shoot 4 and 5 shot groups is so they don't erroneously overestimate their accuracy potential. Believing you can actually get lucky enough to run 3 thru one hole by accident but that is less likely to happen with 4 or 5 shots. One guy that posts alot of groups shoots 10 shot groups his accuracy is pretty damn good and I'd never bet against him
You call your .122" accident a quarter inch rifle all you want but sounds more like a lucky accident than a 1/4" rifle to me. Hey you asked. Mb

You have to do your part to call it a 1/4” rifle.

Only if, while shooting that group, you did your part.

You may call it what you wish, but if it doesn’t do it with regularity, it ain’t.

Used to be an old codger that lived, IIRC, on the Snake River. He tried for years to shoot a three-shot group that could be covered with a penny at 200 yards with an iron-sighted Marlin 39. Finally did it, but he couldn’t claim that he could do it on demand, or even again. The mechanics of the problem were against him, and you.

Enjoy your fluke.

Just having fun guys! Please forgive me.
Phil

Sometimes I'm slow, but I caught on right away.

Call it whatever you like, but don’t delude yourself as there is simply no way…… I doubt one could even find the trigger on a 1/4” rifle, let alone pull it. I’d bet that rifle is at least 40” long or more! Nice shooting though….

I've always thought you could call it whatever you want, until it comes time to prove it to somebody....

Reminds me of the guys who say they shot a deer/elk at 600 yards... until you take them out and ask them how far something is and they say 600 yards and the rangefinder says it is 200....

Can you wait a sec? I need to go get some popcorn.

1/4", 1/2", 1" ? Call it what you want. If you're hunting, knowing where that 1st cold bore shot hits is most important IMO.

Well, I can always just look at it. https://imgur.com/a/cAaaZtq
Phil

I had a coworker who claimed 1" groups at 200 yards with a remington sendero in 25-06. But I didn't see it happen

Here's an example what it takes to consistently shoot groups like that.

This is a 30BR 13.5 lb. gun for IBS and NBRSA Benchrest that I just finished for myself. I had it out for the first time 2 days ago and shot these 3 shot groups while load scanning. Starting from the rt, at 32.7 the load was obviously light with a bunch of vertical but no horizontal. The next one to the left was .3 gr. higher at 33.0...still vertical but less...coming around. Up .5 gr. to 33.5 and it started to hammer with a solid .061. The second group at 33.5 was shot to verify the first...it measured .085 so the load obviously holds up.

The final group (left side) was the same as the .061 and .085. But it was 7 shots and intentionally fired not watching the wind flags. It measures .316. If you examine the group, there are 5 in what would probably measure a flat .100 to .125. The two shots that were 'out' (one at 7 o'clock and one at 1 o'clock) were from the swishy tail winds and flipping mirage.

This shows 3 things that are worth considering...statistical probability, wind and mirage.





I gotta' get me one of 'dem thar' huntin' rifles that shoots 1/4" all day long. If I do my part. With factory ammo from Walmart. Topped with a Barska scope. Off a back pack. At a pie plate.

Good shootin'! -Al

That’s a damn fine looking rifle TenX.

PM headed your way …

You can refer to it anyway you please. The issue is, how accurate is it?

probably more 1/4 inch rifles than shooters on this forum

I knew you were.

You need to post 15 pictures of targets showing repetition or it’s a 2-3” gun.

By the way TenX....that's a sweet looking rig. Classic cool!

Beautiful custom pre 64, regardless of how it shoots..

Nice rifle!

Thanks guys. I built the stock but had the checkering done and of course had the engraving done. I don't have much talent if any but certainly not those.
Phil

How do you measure to thee decimal places on a group of bullet holes?

Measures outside edge to outside edge, then subract bullet diameter to get center to center

Which assumes the holes are full bullet diameter.

I got a .257 Roberts that's almost a 1/4 inch rifle...until I fire the second time, then it's bigger.

Flintlocke
Me too

On a different forum many moons ago, some old codger claimed he could put 5 shots into a coke bottle lid at 100 yards, "all day long," with a Savage 22lr. I asked him what kind of rest he was using, and he said he was usually shooting with his elbow propped on the hood of his truck.

And, they never are. That's why measuring in the way the op describes is considered "optimistic", at best.

By the way TenX....that's a sweet looking rig. Classic cool!

TenX - I’d personally say you can call that rifle anything you’d like but I’d start with “beautiful”!! Nice rifle and it’s a shooter too - now just need it beside a nice buck!

PennDog

Was the caliber of the bullet subtracted from the overall group measurement?

Bullet diameter subtracted from the leaded edge of rhe two shots widest apart is the quickest, down and dirty way. Certainly not the way benchrest is scored or necessarily the most accurate as bsa1917hunter and mathman have eluded to.
Phil

Understood - I answered without reading their comments.

It’s a shooter for sure & yeah IMO you could say you have a 1/4” rifle because it’s been accomplished

TenX,

I'd say it's a quarter shooter but a whole beautiful!

Thanks for sharing your post.

W. Bill

Thanks, W. Bill

I have a rifle that regularly makes groups of under .3 for three shots. Annoyingly I just can't get five in the same space.

Should rifle manufacturers raise their 3 shot MOA bench mark to 5 or 10 shots?
Asking for a friend

Some have.

Thanks, I…. He didn’t know that. Which rifles?

Also can you please explain the poster on Last page for precision and accuracy and how they differ. I’m being serious. Thanks

Sako for one. Just off the top of my head.

Gorgeous rifle TenX.

Nice rig. I have several 1/4inch rifles. But I'm a 1 MOA shooter at best.

Figured BSA would post, he’s a pretty informed shooter when it comes to Non-Match rifle accuracy. I get 1/4 MOA groups all day everyday by shooting one into target and two into berm but not sure that counts.

All-Terrain as well though I’ve not seen it in person only the ads in Sporting Classics.

All-Terra sorry and nope 3 shot guarantee. I know I’ve seen a few offer 5 shot. Maybe some of the lower volume carbon fiber barreled companies like Fierce or Christianson. I recall the Icon had a guarantee but fuzzy on it. My sample was a 1/2 MOA for 5 off a bipod but I’m not a consistent enough shooter having spent very little time at the range in years now. The Icon was sold on here and still up there with most accurate guns I’ve owned beyond customs for F class and F T/R.

Good answer....

DF

There have been others too. The older FN SPR's had a good accuracy guarantee. As did the Les Baer ar15. They are not in business anymore, as far as I know, but they came with a target that had 2 5 shot groups of 1/2 moa or less with their varmint model.. And although FN did not offer a 5 shot guarantee on their SPR A3G, they did offer a 1/2 moa 3 shot guarantee. Some of GAP rifles have a 3/8 MOA guarantee, but I believe that is for 3 shots. As far as Dre's question about companies raising the accuracy guarantee to moa for 10 shots. I guess they could, but I'm sure their prices would go up and those rifles would probably be issued with a single 10 shot group under moa. Likely not 2 groups side by side, like this:


Or this:

Although, if those companies had to guarantee a 10 shot moa accuracy guarantee, they would be using machine rests. Most of my rifles have proven to shoot moa or less for 10 shots, but they are glass bedded and fine tuned to achieve that level of precision. You'd definitely pay for it, if a factory had to do it and guarantee it...

Blacktailer; I’m in the same boat, on a good day on the bench whatever shake is in me is about 1/4 at 100 yards on a bad day it can be up to 1/2 on either side of point of aim.

Pretty hard to know if one has a 1/4” or 1/2” gun if you can’t hold that good.

Tenx nice looking rifle

All of mine are quarter inch capable………then I fire the second shot 😊

I have a .250 Savage, does that count as a 1/4" rifle? 😉

Honestly, I quit chasing tiny groups with my hunting rifles. It's a process of extreme aggravation. I just realized I wasn't consistent enough shooting to call myself a 1/4" shooter as I'm the biggest limiting factor of pretty much all my rifles.

I'm pretty happy if I can hold MOA at 100 for 5 shots out of a hunting rifle slow fire 3-5 min per shot. I then try to stack 5 more in that group without going over another 1/2 to 1 MOA larger group about 15-20 min later basically less than 30 seconds between shots. As long as I'm less than 2 MOA or less I figure I can hunt with it.

The next outing I'll set my optic for 400 yards (that's max range on the property) and bang some steel at that range from field positions mainly prone and sitting supported off a pack or bipod. The range has 4, 6, 8, 10, and 12" plates, and I rapid fire 2 shots. I start out with the 4" and if I miss I immediately transition to the 12" for the 2nd shot. If I hit, I transition to the 6 or 8" for the 2nd. I'll do this for a few outings working on my 2 shot drills.

I'm fine with rifles that offer no accuracy guarantee, like Tikka. Most of us know they shoot well. Most Tikka rifles can hold 5 shots into moa or less, but I don't want to pay extra if they did offer an accuracy guarantee. They keep customers like me happy by offering great shooting rifles at reasonable prices. The new Winchesters offer an MOA accuracy guarantee for 3 shots, but truthfully most newly manufactured rifles will attain that level of precision. Ruger American's, Savage, TC, and others have proven to be quite accurate for even less money than comparable Tikka's. I know the op was tongue in cheek and wanting to stir the pot a little and show off his beautiful new rifle, but his question has some validity. To answer his question: I've never personally had a "1/4 moa" rifle. But I also believe a hunting rifle should be capable of 1 moa for 3 shots (even better if it is for 5 or 10 shots) a precision and varmint rifle should be capable of 1 moa for 10 shots or 1/2 moa for 5 shots. A precision AR15 should easily put 10 shots into moa (5 shots into 1/2 moa). Those should be standards as far as I'm concerned. At least those are the standards I live by. Others mileage may vary...

I agree

Agreed on that, for most people there is a practical limit where the rifle will outperform the shooter, anyway. It varies, depending on the rifle, but for me 4 shot groups of 1MOA with a scope and 2MOA with irons is good enough for me, because I can't consistently shoot much better than that.

Beat me to it.

Crimeny, one would have to put a foot of florescent flagging on it to even find it. Loading it would be a real bitch...

Put yourself in the manufacturers shoes, would you want beer drinking bubba to be the litmus test of your rifles accuracy guarantee?

IMO you can call it a 1/4 inch rifle for three shot groups - If you and the rifle can do it on a consistent basis. If it can't be done on a consistent basis then it was just another fluke group.


drover

What you and your rifle can do off the bench, probably not reproducible in the field.

So, if it's a quarter, half or one inch gun off the bench, doubt you, the rifle or the critter will ever know the difference.

DF

Pretty danged wise stuff right there.

Yep. Errors don't add linearly.

All my rifles shoot 1/4" or better!

Lacking an official IBS or NBRSA group measuring device, here's how to correctly measure group size:

1- Measure the diameter that a single bullet makes in the target paper you're using, including the ring around the hole. In this case, it's .201



2- Now measure the widest part of the total group, again including the ring around the edges. This one measures .296



3- Subtract the single bullet dia. figure from the gross group figure. That's your actual group size. This one is .296-.201= .095

I’ve been criticized for taking group measurements out to three decimal places.

The device measures a lot more than the measurer can measure.

DF

I didn’t know Lea Baer closed. Always wanted to buy one when precision ARs weren’t a wide spread thing. I remember the .264 LBC or something. RRA offered 1/2 MOA as well and most ARs were more Service Rifle style. Shame to hear LBC might of closed up. IIRC they made 1911s too.

Les Baer closed?

Wow. Bad news.

I have their Long Slide .45 1911. That thing is super accurate. I hate it when a gun company closes.

Any details?

DF

No. BSA is just full of schit like always.
Baer stopped making rifles.

Glad to hear they still making those fine 1911's.

I would think the quality AR business got pretty competitive. They probably have a better margin with their pistols.

Ed Brown closed down his bolt gun line, sold machinery to LAW. He continues his 1911 line, probably for the same reason.

DF

Yes, I'm glad too! Nice pistols. I recall reading something from Baer to the effect that the AR business had become too crowded/limited market at the high end.

It's hard to shoot a 1/4" group, trust me.





The bottom one is as close as I've come to that goal.

Even with a rimfire. My Annie 1717 likes the CCI TNT.

I know, I know, measuring groups out to three decimals is way over kill....

DF

Yeah, Les Baer made AR's that were over-the-top good. I got a Super Varmint model in .223 when he was still building them, around the mid-90's. It came with two groups signed by Les that were not much bigger than bullet-hole diameter. I can shoot under an inch at 200 yards with it all day if the wind's not blowing, and I'm not that good. My 13 year old grandson has got his name on that rifle for when I kick the bucket. He built his own AR from a PSA parts kit two years ago.

I'm sure that, given the ease with which anyone with a modicum of skill can put together a sub-minute AR these days at a reasonable cost, not that many would be willing to pay what Les Baer requires to put together one that is truly over-the-top in accuracy and function. With (I've heard) a two-year lead time to get one of his 1911's, it makes more sense to focus on that.

You ain't kidding.

I'm with ya.'

My rifles suffer from the same accuracy phenomena, the more rounds I shoot, the bigger my shot groups grow.

Nice group Al. Problem is since there are 4 shots on the scoring target your group is actually quite large. Gotta count that sighter. 😀
JK

Hard to shoot that one shot, quarter inch with a .30 cal.....

DF

That's why some of us say subtracting bullet diameter is "very optimistic". The hole in the paper is never as large as the true diameter of the bullet. That's why, if you can measure leading edge to leading edge it's more accurate, or the way you are doing it works great as well. Some guys here think I'm full of chidt, but those are the ones that can't prove their rifles shoot as well as they say they do. They are full of chidt and liars as far as I'm concerned. They get all warm and fuzzy saying their rifles are 1/2 moa I guess. To them, I say again: Post up or shut the fu ck up. Its easy..

Respectfully, it doesn't have anything to do with what "...some of us say" .

It's that it's a fact, pure and simple. Basic 6th grade math...no need to even get to Algebra 101.

But it's no wonder that one of the biggest 'standards' in shooting is so misunderstood by so many. Some years back, there was a well known gun writer that did an article for a magazine promoting a new line of premium factory varmint ammo. The pictures of his groups shows the calipers measuring center to center and then he deducts the full bullet diameter! The five shot group that was in the picture was a nice mid-high 1/2" group. But his 'creative' way of measuring had the gun "...shooting in the .2's." You can't make this stuff up.

The article also states he fired the ammo in a Winchester Model 70 Heavy Varmint gun while one of the pics shows the factory ammo box next to A 700 Varmint Synthetic......

'Ya just have to shake your head and laugh at this stuff!

I put an app on my phone that seems to work well. Of course you could cheat on the holes and yardage but that doesn’t change the size of the group. It only makes you a liar. Edk

And, it CANNOT be a .270.

Or, most often, they claim the Pig they shot weighed some exorbitant amount when reallistically it barely tipped the 200 lb mark.