I got into deer hunting about 2007 and joined this forum in 2010, so my rifle experience is a good bit shorter than many on here.

So my question. Is all the new cartridges coming out a normal thing? It seems like they're everywhere. The new Noslers, 6.8 Western, PRCs, etc. Throughout rifle history, have this many new cartridges come along every few years and then just died out? Or is this a relatively new trend?

There have been more, seems like in the 60’s or 70’s one or two new cartridges would come out maybe in one or two years.

You need new cartridges to sell more new guns and ammo. Also, there are new shooters who are not necessarily hunters, they shoot PRC and other events and are always looking for the latest new cartridge and use lots of ammo, unlike most hunters who buy a box and use it over multiple seasons. Good for the industry I suppose.

I don't think it's entirely abnormal. Look at all of the cartridges in Ackley's books. Granted lots of them are wildcats, but as long as we peer over a buttstock, our brains are going to try and think of something that'll do just a little bit better than what we already have.

Yeah, I think more get commercialized now than we saw from from 1950-2000-ish, but there have always been a lot of cartridges coming in, some stick around and some fade off. Look back through old loading manuals or catalogs and you can find a lot of cartridges that you don't see regularly anymore.

The late 18th and early 19th century had a TON of commercially produced cartridges that basically went extinct by the time WW2 rolled around.

The early 2000s were a busy time for new cartridge rollouts with all the WSM, WSSM and SAUM cartridges.

It’s not a new trend, but it tends to follow other technological developments.

After WWI, a lot of Americans picked up bolt-action rifles instead of their old lever-actions. As people realized that scopes could increase range, manufacturers brought out higher-velocity cartridges suited to bolt actions to maximize reach. Most shooters had trouble hitting a deer at 150 yards with open sights, but suddenly 300-400 yards was within reach for a good shot. Bullet technology was cup-and-core and the Greenhill formula dictated twist rates, so recoil was a factor with those cartridges because it increases faster than velocity. At some point you got so much velocity that the rifle kicked too hard for most folks to shoot well.

You started hunting about halfway through the wars in the Middle East. In that time, we learned a LOT about getting hits with a rifle at much longer ranges. We've seen wide adoption of cheap, accurate chronographs, so now we know exactly how fast bullets are going. We have cheap, accurate rangefinders so we know the exact distance to our targets. We know a lot more about ballistic coefficient and smart phones can host apps that crunch numbers and let us determine drops very accurately. And finally, we have scopes that let us dial for elevation.

The end result is that velocity is much less important in getting long-range hits but wind drift remains an issue. Heavy bullets with high ballistic coefficients are the best way to deal with that. Per Greenhill, they need faster twists than were standard before. A lot of today’s new cartridges duplicate the performance of older cartridges, but the rifles that fire them have faster twist rates to accommodate heavier bullets, which makes it impractical to rechamber older barrels for them. Seasoned shooters can now reach out to 1,000 yards or more with ease, and they can do it with light-kicking cartridges like the 6.5 Creedmoor.

With all of that said, most shooters still have trouble hitting a deer at 150 yards with open sights, and 300-400 yards is still a very smart practical limit for most people.


Okie John

And very little has come from all that activity.

Yep. And it keeps the Marketing and R&D teams busy.


Okie John

The advent of smokeless powder made for a busy time. Some cartridges went smokeless. Others passed from common use.
The .32 Winchester Special was designed for black powder use after the .30 Winchester went to smokeless powder. And it was popular in some areas.

And the various .32 and .38 revolver cartridges from Colt/S&W? An old woman asking for a box of .38s can give a gun counter guy the heebie jeebies.

"What kind of .38s ma'am"?
".38 Winchester, you dummy"...

But I'm sure there was some form of logic behind all of that?

And 130 years later some are still curious about what a different conformation of brass case can achieve
A few results are interesting...

And far be it from popular gun writers to stir the pot. Swedish Mausers lived in wooden barrels at the back wall of gun shops for most of my lifetime...

Edit; Stirring that pot really got some things cooking

Remember, "No 6.5mm cartridge will ever make it in the U.S."?

I got into an exchange like that once. Guy walked into the shop where I worked and said, "Gimme a box of 7.62 ammo."

"What kind? We've got 7.62x39, 7.62x51, 7.62x54R, and I think a couple of others."

Blank stare. Then he said, "You need to learn your guns" and walked out of the store.

I don't know whether he ever got the ammo he needed.


Okie John

Popularity of different rifle types changed a lot of outlooks, too. Didn't see too many AR style rifles at the range in 1990.

Retirements and lay-offs from Rock Island Arsenal put many ideas and egos into the private marketplace. It started a wave...

To be fair, I have to counter that with the time I was in Gander Mountain and a buy wanted 8mm ammo. The counter jockey offered him 8mm Remington Magnum. The customer said it looked a lot bigger than what he’d been shooting 😳.

I would think that if the R&D, case design, CNC, and labor costs outweighed the profits from:

-New gun sales
-Ammo sales
-Press from magazine articles and hunting shows

They wouldn’t keep coming out with new cartridges. However, they keep rolling out so money must be rolling in.

I'll be very curious to see how the Nosler cartridges last. It obviously helps that they make rifles and ammo, so they can keep them going as long as they want, but man, at the peak of empty shelves, all that stuff was still sitting there.

6.5 creedmoor is never going away at this point. PRC and RPM seem more iffy due to availability? The little PRC ammo that I've seen for dale is VERY expensive.

Buy a 308, 270 Win, or 30-06 and you can ignore the rest.

There isn’t much improvement over any of these 3 when it comes to deer hunting at reasonable ranges. The rest are simply for something different to play with.

I just got a PRC. Grabbed two boxes of 143 ELD for brass as 42 a box. While it’s not much different in my world than a 270 or 280 I didn’t think ammo was badly priced for premium ammo. And it was certainly pretty accurate.

Nosler is growing to some extent. At least the 26 and 28. With them getting picked up in other rifles and ammo they aren’t doing to too badly in my grid square.

I’d agree with that but add a 7 Rem, 300 Win and 338 Win.

But I love to try stuff out. Kinda fun to monkey with new stuff. For the guy that just wants one or two rifles a 270 and 30-06 are pretty danged tough to whoop for hunting.

this is good advise

Gun/cartridge combos that don’t kick the snot out of you are more popular with younger generations for a reason. My observation is that 9 out of 10 kids these days can’t hit anything anyway, so they keep the pain at bay and buy a lot of ammo for their splattermatics.

Can't find the LIKE button dammit. . .

I was going to add that many don't know how to
tell that there's a dead deer laying 10 yards away
from where it was standing when it was shot.
If it doesn't do 4 somersaults at the shot, a large
majority of people don't go and make an honest
effort to look

Maybe if they would quit making so many new ones, they could make some of the old ones for the rest of us.

Every store around here has a stack of 350 Legend, but I've never seen a rifle for sale.

Bruce

Their parents must’ve been piss poor teachers.

Most of the really effective hunting cartridges have been on the 30-06 case. That includes
the 270, 30-06, 338-06 and 35 Whelen.
I own all of those in pre-64 Model 70 Winchesters. No need for any more rifles.

For long range, the 338 Winchester, 300 and 340 Weatherby cartridges can do the rest.
Last but far from least are the 375 H&H Magnum and the 348 WCF.

Since I really enjoy stalk or still hunting, most elk , deer, and moose have been shot under 110 yards.

***************************
The price that good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled
by evil men." Plato

Election fraud is a violation of the Civil Rights Act-

Yes! Some are actually an improvement over something in existence! However, I think that mostly are purely “market hype” to draw in those that must have the latest “ smoke, mirrors, and fluff”! They thrive on attention, needing to be the first in their hunting/shooting circles! memtb

In the practical world, the 223, 243, 270, 30-30, 308, 30-06 still do it all.

I don't own a 6.5 Creedmoor, but it seems like one of the more practical developments to come along in recent times.

New offerings keep it interesting. For the competition shooters and specialty shooters, the 'improved' ballistics are a big deal. For most shooters and hunters, the difference is of no consequence.

I remember that and the statement that metric cartridges wouldn't be popular in the US. Oddly, most people refer to .243 cartridges as 6mms, and of course we have 7mms and 9.3s that for some reason, caught on too.



Early in my military career, we were taught several things happened that caused calibre reductions in military arms. Military developments influence civilian cartridge and firearms designs.

The first was that more people moved into cities, which meant fewer people were shooting. This migration started a long time ago. Since the younger city kids weren't shooting as much as their parents, they made cartridges smaller, with less recoil. The rifles were shortened and lightened up to make them less unwieldy. 50 cal to 45 to 30 to 224 in the US. This made them easier to control.

It was easier for young men with little or no shootng experience to be trained and become proficient with cartridges like the 303 British, 7.6x51mm and the 5.56.



I wish that they would take some of the older cartridges and re-work them or the rifles that fire them. Many cartridges can be made better or more useful by offering a faster twist. Consider the 22-250. Savage tossed the 1 in 14 twist barrels and increased the twist to 1 in 12. The 222 Remington is made with 1 in 14 twist. With a 1 in 12 twist, they could reliably shoot 60 grain bullets. I rebarreled a 225 Winchester with a 1 in 9 barrel so it could use heavier bullets. There are other examples.

Advances in powder technology greatly improved usability of older cartridges like the 22 Hornet for example.

I suppose the only caveat is that people don't like rimmed cartridges any longer. And a growing segment of shooters want supercharged firepower and complex optics. Optics that I would suggest they cannot use properly, but they are cool.

The reason that we have new cartridges is that, for the western hunter, many old cartridges are [bleep]. A .30 Nosler fits in exactly the same rifles as a .30-06, but substantially extends the ranges at which game can ethically be hunted.

New cartridges are generally caused by one of the following:
Moving to a shorter action or replacing a cartridge that was designed for an odd size intermediate action for which good actions are not available
Moving off an incorrectly chosen slow twist to a correct fast twist
Removing a counterproductive belt
Cartridge shoulder/taper improvement giving better performance for less recoil
Fixing an OAL, shoulder position, or throating problem
Complying with specific state hunting regulations

Not only has there been a wide assortment of new chamberings fueling new sales, but the types of guns and scopes being sold now are nothing like they sold 30 or 40 yrs ago.

Package a funky new cartridge into a tactical LR rifle with a hubble sized scope on top just like the ones the kids used on PS3 and now you've made a sale.

No new shooters want a 7600 with a 3x9 in 30-06 like their dad used anymore ...... BORING!

How's that 300 RCM working out? That's not funny...
Oh, you're looking for 308 Marlin Express ammo, I see.
Did I find any 243 WSSM ammo at Walmart? Uh, no.
How about 24 Valk hunting rounds?
Nope, I was checking for 28 Nosler reduced recoil....
I saw some 505 Gibbs the other day for $286/10....

I've taken the standards route mostly, and think 6.5 Creed is here to stay. Component availability is definately a factor. Standard hunting rifles are more represented on the shelves than some would make it seem. Great varieties of hunting rifles now, for plenty of money.

A fellow I work with likes to buy the biggest, newest, coolest, most expensive stuff out there so he can brag about it. He recently bought a brand new Browning X-Bolt (with huge scope) in 6.8 Western and was extolling it's virtues to me. He is not a handloader. You cannot buy ammo for it in this province or even hope to buy proper LR bullets for it in Canada these days. He searched the entire country and finally found ammo for it out west and payed through the nose for it.

For his hunting, a plain old 308, 270 or 30-06 would have served him better with a whole lot less hassle.

Didn’t you just get a 6.5 PRC? Ammo for those devils isn’t exactly plentiful right now. At least in my neck of the woods.

Very true in my case. My rifle battery only covers 22 LR, 5.56, 243 Winchester, 270 Winchester, 308 Winchester, 30-06 and the 300 Winchester magnum. I have only hunted the lower 48 and have never felt like I had any missing gaps that needed filling. This listing allowed me to focus on acquiring overlapping components for reloading.

Yah. Looking with great curiosity, but, didn't buy, yet..... "Mostly."

It'd be a reloading proposition only, but, where's the brass? Might give it some time and thought. The PRCs seem very well done though. Here to stay? Too soon isn't it?

The horror is, shooting the occasional deer at 150 yards, is not currently pushing me to consider much further experimentation. I've not loaded a single rifle round this year. I'm hoarding components. LOL

Talk about pedestrian Salami.
30-30
300 Savage
30-06
270
243
6.5 Creedmoor
7mm Remington Magnum


I pray for the 6x45... Other than the PRCs, I feel a slight need for 9.3x62 and 375 H&H. Wow, I'm boring.

I have to say I'm not exactly setting the world on fire with new cartridge hype. Several of my rifles are chambered for 100+ year old cartridges and I don't think I have any that are less than 50 years old.
All the new stuff sounds sexy but if you can't find ammo/components all you end up with is a wallhanger.

Yup .... Among my favourites is the 257R, 7x57, 222, 280, 30-06 & 300H&H.

I do have a 6CM though as I like it's shorter OAL and thus fits better in a 700 short action.

Oh yeah, understand that. Your 7 Rem covers all the bases the 6.5 PRC would anyhow. I like mine so far, but it isn't lighting the world on fire, nor pushing anything else out of my safe.

I can find 6.5prc up here with no problem. Good luck finding 7mag ammo. I saw two boxes of 264 win mag yesterday at sportsmans $81 dollars a box. This was regular old factory ammo nothing special. I can get 6.5 prc for around $50 a box.

get a recent copy of the book "cartridges of the world"
https://www.amazon.com/Cartridges-W...+the+world&qid=1634661752&sr=8-1

its very interesting to read about all the cartridges that have come, gone, stayed, etc...

when lead meets venison it really doesn't matter very much what the text on the headstamp says....

all these new cartridges are not designed to get a bullet from the hunter's barrel to the deer's vitals faster, they are designed to get money from the hunter's wallet to the ammo/gun company's bank account faster!

Poole

Strongly disagree. The ranges where game can be ethically hunted? The same variables still apply including weather, game behavior, and hunter shooting ability. The 300 Win Mag will allow one to kill at the same range as the 30 Nosler. That does not mean most hunters have any business shooting that far.

I consider myself pretty much a traditionalist, but have absolutely no issue with those who want to explore/expand horizons. I get it that anything a guy needs to do with a rifle could be done with a rifle from the 19th century.

But anyone with a speck of analytical skill has to acknowledge that some of today's purpose designed cartridges really do fill a niche.

And the same type of analysis shows that just because it's older (or newer) doesn't mean it's better. Purposeful engineering has it's place. In a less sophisticated time, the 30-06 (30-03) cartridge was designed to easily kill a cavalry horse. Worked well for it's purpose and set the world on fire.

In today's world a cartridge designed to fit a short action rifle with a sleek bullet that also fits the magazine makes a ton of sense. If it's also designed to be lighter, less expensive, and does most shooting tasks with less recoil, it's gonna fan the flames again...

And I enjoy the heat...

Man, it's funny, I have a buddy that can buy the Hornady 6.5 PRX 143 ELD ammo anytime he wants from a little hardware store in Utah, but I can't find much if any available locally. I didn't really want factory ammo, but brass is non existent at any sorta normal price. I was able to snag two boxes of the 143 stuff. Emptied one box and loaded some 129 Noslers in it, and gave the other to a friend that doesn't reload and wanted it.

I did put in a backorder for ADG brass from Creedmoor, but it is a pain to have to wait for brass..

The industry is now offering cartridges and rifles that correspond to new bullet technology (heavy for caliber, high BC w/ faster twist) to entice long range hunting and capability. For competitive shooters it makes a lot of sense. Given that most will never utilize the benefits of this technology in shooting game at 700-900 yards it makes little difference as its a shiny new toy that outperforms the old toy. But does it? Not really when it comes to real world conditions and field application. Most elk are shot inside 300 yards and a great majority of those shots are inside 200 yards. Whitetails are typically inside 200 yards, mule deer and antelope well inside 400 yards and usually much less, moose inside 200 yards. Any 1-10 twist 270 WCF would be just fine and is nearly 100 years old. The 270 Wby, WSM or 6.8 Western would show no discernable difference out at 500 yards. They all work the same. Same for the 308 Win, 30-06, 264 Win Mag or any of the very old Weatherby chamberings from 240 Wby-300 Wby on up. In fact the need to advertise the new unbelted over the dreaded belted mags has got folks believing the belted mags are somehow inferior and not accurate. I'll bet the 30-378 Wby with 1-8 and 250 grain projectiles would out perform the new shiny 300 PRC in the hands of a pro. But who needs that kind of chamber or recoil and performance in the field when chasing game, no one except the hunter wishing to take a stab at shooting game at 1100-1300 yards. In most cases no difference under field conditions using a 300 Win Mag, and typically a 30-06, 1-10 twist, 180 grain load would suffice just fine in the field. I'm all for the new creations in bullet design, barrel twist and cartridge design. It appeals to many both old and young, but mostly young as some become enamored with ballistic numbers and tables that indicate wind drift benefits at 600+ yards, etc. Again all fine, but is it needed to kill game in the field? In most cases never. Is it needed to keep rifle purchases up, competitive shooting interest up, after all these are follow ups to the bullet designer's and cartridge manufacturer's creations. Hornady, Nosler and Winchester have to keep swimming or they will drown, even Wby has gotten into the act with the 6.5 craze, and don't forget the gun rags and their writers, they certainly need something new and shiny to write about.

This is a good point. 204 Valk, 6.5Grendel, 6.8SPC 300 blackout etc.....

You are wrong. Spend some time with an exterior ballistic program, and you will see that the velocity at which the bullet moves (which is the most relevant difference between he .30 Nosler and .300WM) is a major contributor to the distance at which you can guarantee hits on targets of a given size.

So yes, you can absolutely move to a better cartridge and hunt farther than you could with an inferior cartridge, perfectly ethically.

Of course the .30 Nosler is also more re-loadable, headspaces better, and feeds better but those are side benefits.