Just want to say I called it! This is exactly the cartridge Winchester needed to release after the .350 Legend's surprising success. An updated version of the old .401 Self Loader. It's a 6.8spc parent case necked up to .40 caliber. With all of the .40 caliber bullets on the market for the 10mm this was really a no brainer.

This cartridge will really turn an AR-15 into a hog and black bear thumper. Loaded up with some 220 or 230 grain hard cast moving north of 2000fps without the magazine capacity limitations of the larger .45 caliber cartridges now avaliable. I think it's going to be a homerun.

I want one in a stainless howa mini.

I doubt it will be anywhere near as popular as the 350 and I only think it will cut into the 350’s sales. Sure, the sporting cartridge world is inundated with redundant cartridges, but what exactly do they hope to accomplish with the 400 that one can’t do with the 350?

Are there any straight wall only states that require a bore diameter greater than what the 350 provides?

Here's the issue:

Same as it would have been if the 350 used .357 bullets (though it can use 9mm bullets).

The pistol bullets in 40/10mm won't work as a hunting bullet driven that fast out of a rifle. Other than possibly monometal like the XPB.

So, new bullets will have to be designed. Pointed rifle type hunting bullets. Hornady and Win. will get their versions out first. Will take longer for the better bullets like Barnes to come out.

Yes, essentially an improved upon .401 WSL at a higher pressure. ( different base case)

Actually , the .40 Cooper Carbine round ,the original longer version of the 10mm Magnum and 10mm (Norma) made from the 30 Remington.

Will build one soon. ( a baby brother to my 50 Beowulf)

Edit: looks like a new base diameter case- .441.
With a .422 head from the .30Rem,10mm, 6.8SPC.
rather than just the SPC with the walls straighten

I hope you get one....which means it's more likely I'll get a stainless howa mini in what they currently chambered for!

Interesting round but I'm doubtful it will make sales anywhere near the 350 Legend. The 350 filled a niche for deer in states that require straight wall cartridges. I'm not sure the 400 will improve on performance for deer over the 350 and most who would purchase a round to fill that niche have likely already gone with the 350. Maybe there's a straight wall, or AR, niche for bear and elk?

Stimulating the economy...gotta make new diameter bullets, new brass, new mags, new rifles, etc.

Another intentional missed opportunity to make a useful round in the correct diameter for useful bullets which already exist.

I suspect you’re right as I think a lot of the success of the .350 is due to the fact that people found out they enjoy shooting it, and maybe a bit that it seems like a good round for personal defense without compromising mag capacity. I see a fair amount of brass on the ground where I shoot.

They, and Remington were careful to stay within the 1.8” case rules which still prevent some old-timey rounds from being used without some loading trickery. Not that I need a rifle, but I was thinking the .360 in a Henry SS would make a good woods rifle with the advantage of a lot of suitable bullets already extant. Might even have my .357 re-chambered.

EDIT: Guess not, the Henry rifles are twisted 1-12”.

And on that note, there will be plenty of 400 Legend ammo on the shelves during the next ammo shortage.

The 200gr 10mm Swift A-Frame seems like a good choice for this one.

Boy I bet that'd be rough on stuff!

Don't worry, they'll probably stop making an existing useful cartridge to push this one.

Last I checked, 10mm bullets were pretty common and useful. And I'm sure this will be available in ARs, bolts, and singles, so I'm not really sure how any of that applies to this cartridge.

Yes 10mm pistol bullets are common. But this is a rifle cartridge and needs totally different construction due to fps and feeding.

Not necessarily.

The Winchester load is 215 grain power point at 2230 FPS.

Hot 10mm ammo in 200 grain is 1000 FPS less velocity (1200 FPS).

For practice and plinking the pistol bullets might work, but not going to be super accurate out of the rifle. They will not work for large game.

I'd wager the A-Frame or a hardcast will work great. I've shot deer with a 300gr WFN out of a .44 mag at 1150, and out of a .444 at a bit over 2000, and the difference in wound channel is telling.

No doubt there will be better choices, but I would have no qualms about a swift a-frame at 2k.

I’m going to beat everyone to the punch and say it for the 24hourcampfire braintrust. “If our boys would’ve had this in ‘Nam them gooks would’ve never had a chance and we would’ve won the war”

This already exists and it's called the 10mm magnum. Much longer brass than a regular 10mm brass.

I have a thousand 10mm magnum brass and 200 grain swift a-frames.

It's going in a model winchester 92 trapper carbine.

Can you video tape yourself twirling that thing like John Wayne did in the movies?

Only if Leonardo dicaprio and Robert Redford are there in scene to protect me. Indians don't last very long in westerns.

Can't help myself, schiddting on the floor again.


Look at the numbers.

It's a lever action brush round in a new box.

Not a distinguished one like a 45-70 either.

If my state required that box,I might be interested.

It don't, I'm not.

Still have my childhood 30-30.
If I want those ballistics it will provide them, with style.

If our boys would've had this in Afghanistan them raghaids would never had a chance and we would have won the war!

It looks a pretty good way to run cast through an AR. I still need cast up a batch of 200g Lee. 358s for the 350. I'm going to go with a softer alloy I got that's about bhn 10. I'll cast them, powder coat and then put a check on them and see if they shoot well that soft. They should expand pretty well at around 1900 fps.

The 40 cal would give an even better starting diameter. A 230g flat nose cast with a check would probably hit pretty hard. A 200g xtp would be a varmint bomb at rifle speeds. I prefer to run them at only 1150 from my handguns. It gives me some expansion without enough to really cut penetration.

Someone on the fire put one through a bears head up close a few years back iirc.

Bb

.400 legends of the fall.
24hour campfire productions.
A movie full of no action, paper target tight groups (yes there's exactly 5 shots), infinite whining about miniscule rifle design and ballistics
And a little bit of trolling........

Starring Alec Baldwin?

🫢

Score composed and performed by Roy Clark.

This is more like a 10mm Maximum.

No, the bad guy's name will actually be Alec Baldwin. Gonna send big stick down to LA, to audition for the Alec Baldwin part.

Gotta check with Rick bin, if he'll be stick's talent agent.

Mule deer will make sure all the blanks are loaded within .02 of a grain, and that everybody on set is eating homemade pot pies.

It's going to prove quite difficult to get a 400 Legend to feed reliably from a high capacity double stack magazine.
Been there, done that. 20 years ago.

Tony Rumore
Tromix

I love the 350L for Ohio deer due to our restrictions, but the 400L makes no sense. It's not going to add range, or needed killing power for deer, and there are better tools if you need a 'hammer'.

The 350 ‘almost’?… shoulda been a real 35 (357-358), not a 9mm. That turned me against it from the jump, as the 357 AR work had been done. As I already have 6.8 SPC stuff, the 400 makes more sense….especially if you want to suppress…..it’s all short range anyway, so why not? Stronger bolts than bushmasters, less recoil, and seems to have more juice and possibilities than the .355. Maybe not, but we shall see.

Nice to have options.

They should neck it down to 6.8

Very interested in this one despite it headspacing on the case mouth (bit of intimidation factor there)... simply because it will likely work with most or all projectiles used for 10mm auto, something I already have in contrast to the 350L.
I'll let the early adopters verify the feeding in an AR though I have little concern it will be an issue. It looks like one can expect a 200grain bullet to go 1800 - 2000 fps from a 16" barrel, nice for up-close shots dealing lots of trauma with less-expensive projectiles. Ballistic calculator indicates it will take somewhere between 75 - 125 yards for a 12.5" grendel to overtake it in terms of energy (123gr SST); I did not compare sectional densities but with those weights I don't think it matters.

At around 250 yards, the above 400L projectile is projected to have the energy of a mid-power 10mm load at the muzzle... not bad.

No one here has had more experience with mags than Tony.

A solution to no problem and as has been stated will mostly just cut from the 350 sales, so no idea what Winny was thinking.

Also, having tested a lot of bullets for my former employer, especially 10/40 back in the day, I don’t even think 10mm monometal bullets will take those impact velocities at closer ranges.

I have been playing around with the Wilson 300 hamr and have to say it is the perfect deer/pig ar caliber to me for 250 and in. The 130 Speer hot cor does a number on them, feeds well and is light on the shoulder.

I agree! Darn straight wall rules!

I’m just happy this might mean more .40 cal bullets to shoot in sabots for my .45 Encore.

Also, .45 cal muzzleloaders have been using the .40 xtp for a while at 2k+ speeds. Seem to work ok.

Exactly what Vabowhntr said. My 45cal Knight muzzy pushes the 40cal 200g XTP at 2200fps. Kills deer just fine for the last 15 years

I think I'll wait and see on the 400 after reading this post. Sounds like Tony might have some experience here.

Bb

So, is Henry going to put a rim on it, call it the .400 Hammer and run it through a lever action ?? Asking for a friend.

kwg

Back in the '80s Winchester played with a ".400 Winchester" based on the .307/.356 case. Layne Simpson said he was shown samples of the cartridge when he toured the factory.

I have a 300 Blackout in a bolt action Howa Mini, and since I don't own a suppressor, or plan to, I kinda like the idea of having it reamed to 300 Ham'r. I'd like to ask you a few questions about it, if you don't mind.

Sure. Pm me your cell and I will call i am running a 16 and 18 inch hamr right now.

The blackout twist rate would be a show stopper I think for a simple barrel ream. Hamrs are 1-13 or 1-15.

I'm in Indiana and kinda debating what I should get to be Indiana deer legal since outside of a flintlock and a shotgun (both extremely short range propositions since the shotgun isn't rifled) I don't have anything legal for hunting deer. The .350 seems nice, but it seems like the .400 has a tiny bit more juice to 250 yards or so, while the .350 seems like a 200 yard cartridge to me. The .450 is a real thumper, but having something a little bit flatter seems good.

If they bring the .400 legend out in a Ruger Ranch rifle, I'll probably get one.

The other thing that might be interesting is plinking loads for the .400. One could use 10mm bullets for subsonic applications with a suppressor (or just for a quiet plinking load). Getting some 200 grain FMJ with some Unique or Blue Dot for something along the lines of 700 or 800 fps seems nice. But the real fun would be shooting a groundhog with a 165 grain JHP launched at 2800 fps or so. I wonder what that would look like.

If you are hunting private land, get what you want above .243". If you spend time on public, I'd opt for the 350 Legend just for ease of ammo availability. And for the fact, I've never seen much if any opportunity for needing more range than the 350 offers on public land in Indiana.

Since a 125-158 launched north of 2800 were coyote bombs from a 357 Max rifle, I’d imagine a 165 10mm around those speeds would be even nastier. I’m a 35 fan…but the 350 as iterated leaves me unimpressed…at least compared to what I saw with the max and what others saw from the 357AR, with REAL .357/.358 bullets. The 357 AR and 223 case was there for Winchester to capitalize on. I often wonder if some animas developed between mad dog or? and Winchester. Would help explain things somewhat. It’s been successful, in spite of Winchester, not because of how they did it. The 400 might be where they should have started, since they weren’t going to make a 35….just a bait and switch to a 9mm.

Our boys had the 30 Carbine in WWll, them Jerry's never stood a chance and we won the war !

Always something new, any advantage over a 450 bushmaster?

Duh !

...

Posted on this on another thread as well, but I'd like to see the CVA Cascade SB (short barrel) chambered for the 400 Legend.

Weatherby offers a neat Vanguard "Carbine" with 20" barrel in .350. If they see fit to chamber it in .400, I will not be able to resist.

LOL, and all the while 98% of those buying and using will use factory ammo and kill the crap out of every thing they shoot with it.

I believe Winchester created the 400 Legend to resolve couple issues. First, there are complaints about 350 bullets leaving poor blood trail, which bigger hole will help. Second, the 350 didn't have the reach or energy at 250-300 yards like 450 Bushmaster, so they want a bit of that "bigger bore/more energy" customer market.

Will 400L scavenge sales from 350L? Probably. But likely not as much as from 450 Bushmaster.

I agree. I understand the why behind the .400, but I want to move in the opposite direction. I want the laws changed so I can use <.35" bullets. I want to step down in diameter and up in BC so I can use a genuine 300 yd cartridge. I don't want/need a new big bore.

From what I understand, the .350L was designed to do a few things:
1) Be a straight wall that is legal in straight wall states.
2) Be cheap.
3) Feed, however precariously, through an AR.

#1 was pretty easy - anything .35" or bigger in a 1.8" case. (OK, maybe they had to do some fast talking to get the .355" accepted when most laws say >.357".)
#2, along with the work of guys like Moleman, pointed to using the cheapest brass available - .223. Just take it off the line before necking and blow out the web area a little. Don't even have to stop the .223 basic line. Then take make some simple changes to another line that runs all the time - the 9mm bullet line. I don't know how bullet lines work in detail, but it may just be a matter of adjusting rather than replacing most pieces.
Then, #3. .355" gives them 3 thou extra of taper and blowing out the web area gives them a couple more thou for taper to help with feeding.

Mission accomplished? Eh, good enough I guess.

I asked Moleman if I should go with one of his .35s or the .350L. He urged me to go with the .350L.

My best guess is that a slew of rifles in 400 Legend from Savage and Winchester will be announced at SHOT. Personally, I'm hoping the CVA Cascade SB is amongst the offerings. Should it be, I'll order one thru my LGS. Otherwise I'll likely settle for a Winchester XPR SR.

howa 🤞

Wouldn't surprise me.

There’s a lot of logical fallacy here:

The legend is NOT on a 223/5.56 case. It’s a 9mm win mag case. It’s not even ‘straight’ with a 355. It’s actually tapered, with a rebated rim that matches 223. The 357 AR max was already being highly utilized as a wildcat, and had no proprietary restrictions that I know of. It IS a 223/5.56 cas, and DOES take all commonly available 357/358 hunting bullets that are already out there. The 357 AR met game laws to the letter. The 357 AR gives more performance. THAT would have been the easy button. The concept and pursuit of the 350 Legend was mind blowing on many different levels for Winchester. It worked for Winchester, but hunters got less across the board. Hence why I call it the 350 Almost.

Do you have a 357 AR?

This is silly talk concerning the 400. I think I will ask Tony if he will do a 358 Winchester upper for my AR10. RZ.