Got back into town and was thumbin' through the new American Rifleman rag lookin' at the new products comin' out. Was viewin' the new T/C Icon rifle in .30 T/C and the new Marlin 336 ss/lam in .308 Marlin Express. My first general impression is that the T/C looks a mess. Styling is horrid to say the least. It has the bases of a tactical style rifle, a European "butterknife" bolt, an American style straight-comb stock, and a mag that protrudes from the bottom of the belly. Clusterphuck comes to mind here.....I realize the bolt handle is changeable(nice touch). The Marlin rifle, as we all know, has already proven itself many times over, design-wise. I'm no fan of laminated stocks of any type('cept maybe AI's) or rifles with shiny, in the white metal. Or leverguns with long, unwieldy barrels, and heavy stocks designed to do something I've never required of a levergun. That said, the Marlin is still a top notch design, in a weather-resistant package. I'd at least have to have it ceramic bead blasted before I could like it. My real question, however, is which one of these new cartridges, is more viable, and which will die off first? The 308 Marlin Express, or the 30 T/C? Will either make it? I have serious doubts.....
Neither one will set the world on fire - but I would have to say the Marlin will die first with the T/C surviving only on the TV shows. Hard to watch a TV show without T/C blasted all over the place and from what I see around here TV is the only place I see a T/C being used either.
Michigan ain't much different. I see a few Contenders from time to time, but sold mine. The Omega is the only T/C I see regularly.....
Yep - WI/MI seem to be pretty firm in the Rem 700/Ruger/Win camp with bolt actions. Not that I haven't seen some nice Sav 99's but to say a single shot is common where I hunt is not true.
Bolt guns are definitely on the rise the last 10yrs or so. But still LOTS of traditional deer rifles here: 99's, 94's, 141's, 336's, etc.....
I have been known to bring both the Ruger and the 1899 Sav or the pre64 94 with me to the stand......
I'm going to guess the TC dies first. Primary reason is that there are other good options for a TC where there is really nothing available in a Marlin that will do what the .308 Marlin Express wil do. I expect the .308ME to sell fairly well.
I'm going to guess the TC dies first. Primary reason is that there are other good options for a TC where there is really nothing available in a Marlin that will do what the .308 Marlin Express wil do. I expect the .308ME to sell fairly well.
+1 I agree. Lever gun sales seem to be up. And I think Marlin is doing a good job responding. TC is still looking for Market.
I just can't be impressed with the looks of a rifle that has a butterknife bolt. WTF?
.30 TC is completely pointless ( I think it allows them to load a .308-like round with slow powder and not worry about folks shooting it in an M1A)
the Marlin is nearly as pointless, those who want a pointed bullet modern cartridge will goto a bolt action.
I do want to buy a TC Icon. Mine will be in .308
Poole
+ 1 again... Lever guns are popular. I forsee the .308 M.E. being here to stay. It's caused quite a stir out there in "Lever-Lever Land". What's the big deal with the TC? You can do the same or better than that with a bunch of other cartridges and/or rifles. Nothing against Thompson/Center but I have no great desire to run out and buy one.
Both cartridges are inventions that have already been invented. The 30TC's will mostly get rechambered to 308 eventually as I see it. Also no reason to buy or order one in 30TC when the gun is available in the very popular and compentant 308. I see the marlin as doing OK, but if it were mine I would be tempted to re-chamber to 307WIN for a little more case capacity. I have also read and heard that rifles chambered in 307WIN will generally feed and eject 308 cases. One would have to be careful to load up only low pressure stuff for one's levergun if using the 308 cases but this would make ther rifle really easy and cheap to feed. The 30TC dies first, and much sooner as I see things.
Im not impressed with the TC ICON in the least, I dont see big sales for Thompson in the future on this one, I had the same reaction you did when I first saw a picture of the ugly beast, but Im afraid we will be looking at it alot on the hunting shows. TC sponsers several hunting shows, and those guys just shoot anybodys gun thats willing to pay the most. ( I bet they wouldnt carry this crappy rifle if they had to pay for it themselves!) The Marlin is a proven design and though Im not a lever fan their are alot who are, I suspect it will sale some but it wont set the world on fire...................My vote says the TC will die a slow painful death first................547.
My vote says the TC will die a slow painful death first................547.
Doesn't need to. No need to tie it's life and death to the .30TC. A little updating might make it a fine rifle. I love the idea of the interchangeable bolt handles. It has a very interesting three position safety that I's have to handle to pronounce a verdict on. Dump the magazine and give me a blindbox or floorplate model instead of a hump where my fingers ride. Deliver it in a bunch of other calibers including some that others ignore (257 Bob, 7x57 come to mind). Make a lighter-weight version, make some easily installed options such as peep sights or bipods. No reason we should write off this effort yet.
I agree there is no reason to write off the Icon yet, provided changes are made.......I agree with Safariman that both cartridges have already been invented years ago, and both died too........
If Browning would take the 30 TC and put it in their Mirco A-Bolt, it would be an instant sucess and everyone in the world would want several.
If Browning would take the 30 TC and put it in their Mirco A-Bolt, it would be an instant sucess and everyone in the world would want several.
I assume you are being facetious. I didn't know anyone
wanted a Browning A-Bolt in anything?????
Just trying to get the discussion moving in a positive direction.
My guess would be the cartridge will die off first.
The rifle, who knows?
My guess is the TC will die off first. I have seen exactly three guys hunting with TC's in the last 10 years. I guess they aren't really that popular around here.
As I understand it, and I might be wrong here, both are very dependent on factory loads to do what they do. The 308 ME depends on the soft pointy bullets that are not yet available to handloaders and the 30 TC seems to use some magical powder that, again, doesn't seem to be available to us. I suspect that most of the people who might buy one or the other are handloaders who won't get to play with these rounds as much as they would like to. So, unless they stop selling 30-30 Winchesters and .30-06s and fill the shelves instead with 308 MEs and 30 TCs, I don't expect them to be particularly popular. I'd even say they are doomed. And, I agree that the TC rifles (both the single shots and the new bolt gun) are so goofy looking that I just can't like them no matter how hard I try.
That said, of the two, I prefer the "idea" of the 308 ME-- 300 Savage performance in a tube fed lever gun seems like a good thing to me. But then again I thought the 307 was a good idea too. See where that one ended up...
I think they will both flop,,,,,factory ammo is expensive for the 308M,,,,,,,,course thare are always those that hafta have something different,,,,,the 308 first
The 308 Marlin will win. Marlin supports its stuff for a LONG time. Heck, the 444 marlin took 15 years to catch on. Marlin, never gave up on it.
Also, Marlin does not care about selling 308 Marlins. Marlin just wants to sell rifles. The 308 Marlin is bait. Now that a deer hunter can get a 160 grain bullet going 2600 fps, the marlin is a viable long range weapon.
I say that the 308 marlin is advertised heavily, gets the lever guys into the gunshop, then that same lever guy gets sold a 30/30 MARLIN and LeverRevloution pointy bullet ammo (which is almost as good, will do fine for deer hunting, and then the guy can use regualr 30/30 ammo that he can get anywhere).
Net Result: Marlin Sells More MARLIN rifles. Marlin wins and keeps that 308 Marlin in its lineup for decades to come.
BMT
Thats true and I always forget that for most hunters reloading isn't a consideration.
My guess is TC's new caliber will hang around longer because it is just a matter of making barrels which TC does so well. The new rifle is a mess and will not be around long. Didn't Winchester attempt a .307 in their beefed up 94 some years ago? I doubt Marlin will have any better luck but love that Marlin rifle.
The TC will crash first and foremost. It is a cartridge will little reason for existence. TC does not have the customer base that Marlin enjoys and they have a reliable habit of building guns as homely as my left cheek. The Marlin cartridge enjoys something the .307 Winchester did not, that being .308 ballistics and a pointy bullet. Handloaders are a minority segment in the industry and that has little play in the matter in any case.
That said, I have little desire for either, and certainly no need. This onrush of new chamberings visited upon us in the last couple of decades has produced little(I did not say "nothing") in the way of substantial improvement in any form. Hopefully it is on the wane.
.02 worth, not adjusted for inflation.
If Browning would take the 30 TC and put it in their Mirco A-Bolt, it would be an instant sucess and everyone in the world would want several.
To quote from a Malt-o-Meal TV ad from the late 50's or early 60's:
"Tastes twice as good as that other tastless stuff"
Or, mathematically, 0 + 0 = 0.
Actually there is plenty of "other stuff" that tastes very good, and I'll put my money there. The crystal ball says a Marlin .308 Marlin Express XLR is in my future...
I think the TC will be gone first. Levergun enthusiasts will keep the .308 M.E. going enough to keep it in production, at least for a while.
If Browning would take the 30 TC and put it in their Mirco A-Bolt, it would be an instant sucess and everyone in the world would want several.
I assume you are being facetious. I didn't know anyone
wanted a Browning A-Bolt in anything?????
He can't be serious, can he Jack? Hopefully, the .30 T/C and A-bolt will die off together
I think I agree with the majority here that the Marlin will outlast the T/C, provided they market/support it better than the 307 Win. But 30 T/C barrels will be available for a long time. A cartridge so close to the 308 Win in a rifle that hideous has got its' work cut out for it. I just can't ever foresee any other gun makers chambering rifles for either cartridge.....I also do not believe in "magic" powders, as I've seen several cartridges come down the line that they said handloaders would not be able to duplicate factory performance. Guess what? They've always managed to....
I just like the fact that we are off which Short, fat Mag will die first, discussion.
Which will die first?
Ummm.... do we have a simultaneous death rule around? How about a still born rule? IMHO, either/both would apply...
May ALL of the Short fats, Wssm's,Shamu's et al die simaultaneously WITH the 30TC and 308ME!
Color me perplexed as I don't see why anyone would wish failure on TC or Marlin's new products -- or WSM, WSSM, SAUM, UM or any other product for that matter.
There is a significant difference between believing the market will reject a product than actively hoping it will fail.
They will both die like a Bang Flop very swifty and with great authority. The Marlin might last a tad longer because of some die hard lever users.
I just can't be impressed with the looks of a rifle that has a butterknife bolt. WTF?
Good point! +1!
As for me I hope the T/C dies ASAP as it is BUTT UGLY!
i actually like the looks of the t/c icon ... semi-custom rifle supposedly going to retail @ $800. good trigger, good barrel, good stock, integrated steel scope mount ... the .30 t/c caliber, on the other hand, seems completely ridiculous. i'll take one in .308. (preferably 7mm-08, no idea why they chose the calibers they did for the initial launch of the rifle ....)
the Marlin is nearly as pointless, those who want a pointed bullet modern cartridge will goto a bolt action.
........ or buy a BLR.
They will both slowly fade away. The Marlin round may sruggle for just a bit longer.
I most certainly do not hope ANY American made products will fail.....I just can't see these ones making it.....
If Browning would take the 30 TC and put it in their Mirco A-Bolt, it would be an instant sucess and everyone in the world would want several.
I assume you are being facetious. I didn't know anyone
wanted a Browning A-Bolt in anything?????
That's just the opinion of this forum. On the Alaska forum and a few others, the Browning rifles actually have a solid fan base, suprisingly or not. I wouldn't mind playing with a Micro Hunter chambered in 22 Hornet.
The truth hurts, I know.
I'm not a big fan of their rifles, but have shot 3 or 4 A-bolts that left me impressed in the accuracy department!
Didn't say I didn't believe you, just want you to get outta here.......
Of all the times I've ripped on the A-bolt, I've never once said they are inaccurate. My main concern is for how long, and under what conditions. They are an accident waitin' to happen....
There are also some on this forum whose opinions I value highly, and don't recall too many Alaskans as bein' fans of these rifles. Who are the "fans" from Alaska?
A as T/C fan, T/C will sell more "ICON" rifles chambered for the 260 rem than the 30TC. And T/C does not chamber the 260 Rem,,,yet.
I believe the rifle will do well is sales and even better when T/C gets the weight out of it. This years "Icon" rifles will have "select grade" stocks and we all have a weak spot for select wood.
I'd like to see what a stainless/synthetic model looks like, without the butterknife handle... NOT in .30 TC.