I have a CZ Model 3 in 300WSM that I just had bedded and free floated by a local Gunsmith. This rifle was purchased new last Dec. I did some shooting and load development during the winter before I had it bedded. It shot pretty good, about 1 1/4+ with several loads. I figured a good bedding job would help tighten things up.

I have been trying to work up loads for this thing and it has become very frustrating. This is a typical 4 shot group at 100 yards. Notice #2 way left. I would get fliers like this almost every group. They would show up at random, sometimes #1,#2 or #3, but never #4.


I have a Nikon 4.5-14x40 Buckmaster/side focus with Leupold DD bases and rings.

So what do you think is going on here? Bad bedding job, POS rifle, Scope problems or the nut behind the trigger?

Thanks
Steve

I almost forgot. The trigger is a smooth, crisp, no creep 3lbs.

I have this happen occaisionally but the pulled bullet is not seperated quite this far from the main group and I guess I just thought it was me pulling one off the mark.........

When I have had this happen, it seems as though I did not get the rifle back on the front rest straight. Sometimes with a hard recoiling rifle, my front rest (which is not a heavy one) will shift a little bit. If I fail to notice this, it will shift a lot on the next shot and that shot is usually a wide "flyer". At this point, I notice that the rest is askew and straighten it up and the next shot is back in the group. Don't know if this is your problem or not...

One of these days I'll bite the bullet and buy a good, heavy front rest.

I wonder if you�re not having a parallax problem between you and the scope.

My front rest is a Caldwell Rock BR with a Protektor Owl Ear front bag and a Caldwell Universal Magnum rear bag. This front rest is pretty heavy and doesnt move when shooting.

Shooting in the dark here, perhaps your barrel is heating up improportionatly with various shots. I mean most rifles will shoot shot #1 off, as the barrel is cold. Then the remaining shots will usually group nicely after that. What if, and I'm just taking a guess here, the barrel harmonics are being changed as the temperature is changing? If you took the rifle out today and fired 5 rounds, and only 5 rounds for the day will shot #2 be off the same as if you repeated this tommorow?

Several gun writers have written that the short mags are a real P.I.T.A. to get to shoot well. I don't know if that is THE problem or not. Make sure nothing is touching the rifle, especially the barrel, during shooting. If the rifles action is long enough I would 1) firelap the barrel and then 2) rechamber it to a full length cartridge. Very interesting dilemna as it seems the rifle really WANTS to shoot well......

Did you have flyers befor the bedding job? You said it shot "pretty good" befor having it bedded. How is the crown? Was it damaged while being bedded? Are the action screws tight or too tight?

Frustrating. My advice: (1) have someone else shoot two or three groups to see if there is a human factor. (2) Try shooting five shots, one at a time, from a cold barrel. See if you get random flyers from a cold barrel. If so, you can probably rule out the barrel heating up and changing the harmonics. (3) Sample size. You may just need to shoot more rounds to find out what the pattern is, and thus the cause.

Not really. Looking at my notes from last winter(cold) my groups were more on the lines of 1 1/4 inch cloverleaf. However, I did record a few groups that had three under 3/4in and then one about 1 inch away from this group. Similar the the target above, but not near as far away.



I checked the crown and to me it seems fine. That doesn't mean it is as I am no expert. I will have it checked by someone more qualified than myself.



They are tight. Maybe to tight, I duno.

Are the flyers always horizontal? I they are, I would question the scope, or human error. If you are right handed, I would rule out the human part ! A botched shot is USUALLY "pulled" not pushed.

The WSM's are as accurate as any other similar cartridge.

First make sure that the mount bases are tight to the receiver and that the dual dovetails tighten back up. As long as the scope is out of the rings put a different proven scope on it.

Now find a tool that fits the guard screws and check that the front one is tight. If the rear one was loose tighten it some. Bring the tool with you to the range.

Bore sight the rifle now if you can at home. If not do it at the range. Bring other guns to shoot so this rifle can cool.

Once its on the paper start with two shot groups. If they stay together then fire a three shot group.

If the groups are not good change the tension with the rear guard screw. If medium and tight do not work then shoot the rifle with the rear screw almost loose, just finger tight. If it responds to this then the bedding is not right.

From the pattern I see and read of your groups I don't think the crown is that bad.

Of course you must have different loads including factory?

Once it gets grouping keep track that it stays sighted in.

Keep in touch on this here.

No, not all of them. I just went trough my notes from yesterday and the fliers were all over the place. Mostly 2 inches high at 10 o'clock and 2+ inches low at 5 o'clock from the main group. There were a few that were far left and one that was far right. I also had two that were tight at sub MOA. But these were not repeatable.

IIRC Ausie gunwriter wrote turn the seating stem in 1/4 turn at a time to bring the group together. My son had the problem with his 1917 Enfield and turned the stem in 1/2 turn and fixed the problem.

That is quite a reach don't you think? Call Nosler and ask them about short mag accuracy.

If my model 3 would have shot that good I would not have complained. Mine shot 4" to 6" groups. CZ told me if it functions it is yours> They do not care if the accuracy is garbage. The fix for mine was a new barrel and a trued action bedded and a trigger job now it shoots like it should.

CZ and Montana rifle company should be ashamed of themselves for the model 3 debacle!

8mmwapiti

Several gun writers have written that the short mags are a real P.I.T.A. to get to shoot well.

Check to,see if the front action screw is maybe touching in the hole. Maybe when bedding it is now a little tight in the hole. I chased that ghost for about 300 rounds. You might have it open up the hole. If it shot better before it was bedded,it has to be the bedding, not all the other things mentioned

Your barreled action is moving in the wood or you have a bind in the action...Glass bedding is not a cure all and if done improperly isn't any better than an improperly bedded rifle...

The rifle demonstrates an ability to shoot, just got to locate the cause for the flyers..

Since you've tightened all the nuts and bolts, switch scopes and try some factory ammo. Also, ck to see that the barrel is in fact floated. I do not own a CZ, but what I hear locally is that they are very good in the accuracy dept. In a box of Win 180 power points, I found app. 80% had <.003 RO. You can actually see .004 and greater as the tips will wiggle as you roll them on a level surface. So, disgard any you can see wiggle, or best yet use a concentricity gauge if you have one. IMO.

art

Myexperience with the short mags has been very good...Have worked with them in LW as well as heavy match rifles. The .300 WSM is especially easy to get to shoot most anything. My son's Sako in .300 WSM is the most accurate factory rifle I have ever used.

As far as the flier could be everything from gun handling on the rest, bad beeding (my first guess ) Ammo quality, scope ..........?

LC

With heavy recoiling rifles, those Leopold dual dovetail rings and bases can cause problems. The rear dove tails ride up out of the groves in the screws.

There were some comments about this on her a few months ago, and other people said they had problems, also.

What happens, with a heavy scope and a light but heavy recoiling rifle, the scope and rings try to stay in one place and the rifle trys to jump out from under them. This causes the POI to change from shot to shot. Mule Deer has written about it, too.

I don't know how to do a search for the thread but you might want to look into it. One reader said he had seen the front ring actually bend from the force.

Also, check that all screws (action, bases, and mounts) are correctly tightened. Sounds to me like a POI shift instead of a flyer.

Steve,

I have a MRC 1999 300WSM and your CZ3 is the same action rebranded. The rifle was in a McMillan stock that was inletted very poorly in the barrel channel. I rebedded it with Devcon Steel putty at the recoil lug and under the chamber part of the barrel. Now the MRC is a bit different to the M70 in that the front part of the receiver protrudes past the recoil lug. In bedding you usually tape the bottom, sides & front of the recoil lug in a M70 type action. However, in doing this the front part of the receiver ring on the MRC can become bedded as it did in mine.

I found that "my rifle" still shot inconsistently with this bit bedded. I emphasise - my rifle, each will be different. You could check to see if this part is also bedded in your rifle. If so, I would suggest you remove the contact in this area.

The attached picture should show you what I mean.

Regards,
JohnT



In my case the answer: "Definitely grind a relief" . Also make sure the front action screw does not contact the hole in the stock at any point. Hopefully, whoever bedded your rifle has already done this. If not I'd be very suspicious of the whole bedding job.

Screw tension should be very tight up front & just tight up rear. Good luck.

Lots of great tips here; goes to show the problem could be a number of things. If you are using resized brass( or even if you are not) I would follow Thumper's advise and look at case runnout.A couple of 30/06's I loaded for behaved in a similar fashion,and paying attention to runnout cured the problem for me.

On the other hand I think you said it always seems to be a certain shot in the sequence that "flies out";since the rifle did not do this before, I'd suspect the bedding job as well.Somthing is moving around where it should not....

Lots of great advice thanks.

I do not think runout is the problem. All loads were tested with my Sinclair Concentricity gauge and had .002 or less.

I was not aware that the DD bases could be a problem. Tell me what I need and I will buy em. Even if the bases are not my problem I'll change em anyway just to be sure. This rifle is stainless.

I took a close look at everything today and it doesn't look all that good(I think). The bedding was done in two stages (Gunsmith's words). The front half around the recoil lug was done first. He also intentionally left a little finger of bedding compound that tapers towards the muzzle. After that was cured the rear tang area was done. The tang area has NO impression of the receiver. It looks as though the bedding compound was allowed to partially set up and was formed by hand, kinda like modeling clay. Then the bedding compound was ground away in some areas so the action would fit. Looks more like in-letting instead of bedding.
I'll see if I can clear this up with some pictures.

It also appears That the front action screw comes in contact with the stock. The rear one is close, but I think it is OK.

Thanks
Steve

DD's aren't a problem! it's the windage adjustable ones that can cause problems.

oh, and it sounds like bedding.......

This first picture is of the recoil lug area and that goofy little finger. It looks to me as though this little finger was done after the recoil lug. The light colored compound around that finger is also a bit higher than the rest. It also appears that there is some compound that was added on the sides just forward of the lug. These two spots are also high.


This is the rear tang area.

your bedding is messed up in the tang..

never mind... your bedding is screwed up everywhere......

I still would ck the scope out just by switching it. It's the easiest thing to do before you go to a rebedding job. You've got 3 shots in just over .5", then a monster flier. I don't think a bad barrel does that. I don't think bad bedding does that...but I think a scope can. Cripes, I only have one, maybe two, "bedded" rifles..ask JB about broken scopes, I read somewhere he's had quite a few. If I'm wrong, so be it, it's just so easy to eliminate.

art

Steve,

Looks like the person you used did not really understand the purpose of bedding. The below pic shows the only part of the rear that I would bed on a M70 style action.



If you are really good you could bed all round the action but that is far beyond my capabilities.

Steve, don't dispair have a look at the info on bedding on a search of this site & the internet. Get a copy of Richard Franklin's DVD on stress free pillar bedding if you want to do it yourself.

The exact same thing happened to me when I got a stockmaker who said he knew about glass bedding to do my Sako 308. Looks like he even used the same epxoy as on your rifle. My rifle also shot worse afterwards.

I watched the stress free DVD and I watched a mate do a bedding job on a Howa. After much procrastination and encouragement from my friend I took the plunge. Now I have done 3 jobs with the MRC being my first. So the good thing to come out of it is that I know how to do it myself now. I also learned a lot about my rifle in the process.

As you can see from your photos he also bedded the front action ring when he bedded the barrel. I'd get rid of that and leave the front of the action floating.

An MRC or M70 is actually quite straight forward to bed (Ruger's are a pain). I'd definitely recommend getting stock inletting screws or headless bolts if you can get em-prior to your doing the bedding job yourself. They certainly make things easier for the bedding process.

Look its a bit of a cock up but nothing that can't be fixed - and relatively easily at that.

Regards
JohnT

FWIW:

I had similar results with a 30-06 shooting TSXa, H4350, over Win LR primers.

Switched to Federal Match Primers--problem cured.

Go Figure.

BMT

"With heavy recoiling rifles, those Leopold dual dovetail rings and bases can cause problems. The rear dove tails ride up out of the groves in the screws."

"DD's aren't a problem! it's the windage adjustable ones that can cause problems."

My mistake. I got the two types confused. It is the mounts with the opposed windage screws that can cause problems.

I would check the gap between barrel and forend. If it is very close, it might be close enough to make contact during firing due to the weight of the rifle on the forend in the rest, or barrel vibration. This will cause flyers. If the barrel is to be floated, there should be "enough" gap there to make sure it stays floated in all firing positions. The only downside to a wider gap is appearance (and a place for foreign matter to gather). On my floated-barrel guns, it is obvious the barrel is floated. The old dollar bill test is not good enough. It takes more than the thickness of paper for a barrel to be effectively floated.

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