Hello all

I am looking at picking up a Sako 85 Finnlite in either 270wsm or 300wsm. I have not owned a short mag yet and am looking for some opinions from guys that have. I'm not looking to get into what kind of game are you hunting etc as I own lots of rifles in many calibers. I just want to know about some first hand experience with regards to performance. Does the 270wsm really stretch out compared to a 270 win? Does it come close to the 270 Wby? Or is the 300wsm the higher acheiver leaving the 30-06 way behind and duplicating 300 win mag velocities? Any ideas?? I am a handloader so I am interested in more than just factory data. Thanks for all replies.

Regards

I have a .270 WSM and a .270 Weatherby with equal length barrels, I think the .270 WSM is pretty underwhelming compared to the Weatherby round. I've seem some pretty good numbers put forth by others, but my rifle won't achieve them. The WSM in question does not get advertised velocity with factory ammo either. It's a sample of one either way.

I personally would prefer to stay with the std. 270 WCF as the advantage is mostly in print..but to each his own and all are good calibers that will do what you require of them.

I personally would prefer to stay with the std. 270 WCF as the advantage is mostly in print..but to each his own and all are good calibers that will do what you require of them.

The 270 WBY is the most underated caliber that I know of, but there again I doubt that the extra trajectory or velocity helps at the ranges of 400 yards that I limit my shots to..

IMHO ,the 300WSM is a fast 30-06 with great case life and minimal trimming. I'm sure the same could be said for the 270WSM.

Great choice for the Sako 85 platform.
4 down and it actually feeds fine. About a 1/2lb lighter as well.

Neither will hang with a true magnum but that's not really a bad thing at all.

Said it before Sammo, but you are wise beyond your years...
Ingwe

Ingwe, you must be heavily into the B12....(grin)


Seriously though, I really do like my 300 WSM.

Comparing factory loads to factory loads my 300 WSM is slightly faster than a 300 Win mag. As far as handloads go the 300 Win mag has the edge. I prefer the WSM, but that is mostly do to the short-action rifle that houses it. Also the fact that the case is beltless means longer brass life and fewer problems reloading it.

No B12 tonight, or BS for that matter....
It just takes most guys about 20 years of hunting till you realize you don't have to have the Ultra Whizbang Magnums...
You figured it out early....
And I noticed your scopes don't have awful many bells and whistles either...
I have also never seen a pic of any of your rifles wearing a "Bubba Buddy" ( Elastic buttstock cartridge holder)...
So there you have it..kudos to early learned pragmatism...
Ingwe

If I was gonna get a Wizzum it would be a 300, but only cuzz they didn't make a 25.

Yeah, and I think they missed the boat for sure there...our gunsmiths have literally built more 25WSMs than we have ever sold of the 25WSSMs...
Ingwe

To be completetly honest I do have a funky reticle in a bigass Zeiss scope. Never again though.
Brad and Dober got me turned onto the little LR Leupold's and they are a pretty damn slick setup.


And hey I'm almost up to 20 years of hunting here in Montana. Listening to you guys sure doesn't hurt the learning curve either.


No B12? What the hell buddy?

I better go take a rip of the Single Barrel JD for ya.....(grin)


Scotty, a 257 or 264 WSM wouldn't suck at all.

Sorry for the hijack.

Ingwe,
you have any idea the kind of speeds that are attained with the .25 WSM? Is case neck turning required?

Why is it that Danny and Sammy feel compelled to call me Scotty.....

You know what...I don't really know....I think one of them lives right down the street, and/or I can ask the smiths...
I'll bet however, that some neck turning is required, and I'm guessing the scrunch down might be a two step operation...unless they start with .270 WSM...
I'll see what I can find out about the Short/Fat...
Good Questions...I don't pay enough attention to boolits going faster than I can see...
Ingwe

I don't know...that is a little disturbing...

Reciprocity maybe....

Ingwe

I call them Dan and Sam.

I only do it when I'm drunk.....(grin)

Oops!...My Bad!
I may have to go back and "fix" that...


Nahhhh....

Ingwe

No problem ingwey

Was wondering how long it would take to molest that name...
Ingwey

Ingweewee

That reminds me...
On that note...I gotta go....
Night Scotty....
Ingwe

Ingwe-so "A" has a 257 WSM reamer?

Dober

It does sound good, don't it? Need to get the Web-fu working and see what I can find for dies.

For some reason or another I kind of think that the 25 would be a bit more user friendly than my 338...

6.5 WSM has at times given a shout to my loony side as well.

Dober

[bleep] me running, every time I do some sort of 25WSM search I get the 'Did you mean 25 WSSM?' If I did mean that I would have typed it.

[bleep] that little super short piece of trash.

Don't ignore the .325 WSM. It has several advantages. To wit:

- explaining what the hell it is, and isn't, is always a great way to get your buddies eyes to glaze over;

- it makes finding bullets and brass more challenging, and challenge keeps the mind sharp, feet fleet, and pecker willing;

- it'll shoot an Accubond through a deer lengthwise. Starting at the rear shoulder no less. How slick is THAT?

- an 8mm jag works GREAT for tight-patching a .30 bore;

- uh.... I'm sure there's more, but that should be plenty.

Holy bat [bleep], even Lee makes 6.5 Wizzum dies

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduc...mp;utm_medium=free&utm_campaign=9315

IMO, the move to go WSSM instead of WSM in a 25 was one of the all time biggest pooch screws ever!

A while back I had a rag around here with an article on the 25 WSM in it, if I could ever find it I'd scan and email to you if you wish. If, I can ever find it...

Thinking it might just be easier to do a 7 WSM and run 120's...

Dober

There's a thought!

Or a 270 and run 110gr TTSX's

That's another good thought, or a 300 and the 130 TSx's...

And then there's the 325, nope not gonna go there as this will quickly go into the toidy...

Dober

...........I did own a Weatherby Vanguard chambered in the 300 Win Mag for 34 years and have nothing but great things to say about that cartridge. Two and half years ago, I converted over to a new rifle in the 300 WSM, because I preferred the rifle chambered for it.

As my Lyman manual says about the 300 WSM (para-phrasing)..."The 300 WSM averages 30 to 50 fps below the 300 Win, while using 8% to 10% less powder."....... Both the 300 Win and the 300 WSM were tested with 24" barrels in the Lyman manual. Performance wise and on any game hunted with either 300, there is absolutely no real advantage that one would have over the other in the field given the same barrel lengths. The 300 WSM is much closer in ballistic performance to the 300 Win, than is the 30-06 to the 300 WSM.

On the other hand and given the same barrel lengths, the 270 WSM exceeds the 270 Win by around 200 fps. The 270 WSM is closer to the 270 Wby than is the 270 Win to the 270 WSM. So to answer your question; yes, the 270 WSM does stretch out the 270 Win while approaching the 270 Wby. Imo, if you`re not successful and can`t kill the game with a 270 WSM given the same distances, you won`t be successful and kill the game with a 270 Wby either. They are close enough imo, to make that determination.

In considering the 270 WSM or the 300 WSM, the 270 WSM would be a slightly flatter shooter, while the 300 WSM will deliver better downrange energies with heavier bullets. With maybe the exception of the dangerous bears, whatever you can hunt with one, you`ll be able to hunt with the other.

Good post;Sqeeze is right.

How much velocity any of these cartridges give over the other depends entirely on how hard you're willing to run them.I've toyed with 3 270 WSM's and the factory 130 gr stuff gave a shade under 3300 fps with factory 130 gr loads.With handloads,and RL22,I stopped at 3225-3250.The rifles were a pair of M70 FW's and a Kimber Montana.

OTOH,a custom 270 Weatherby I had built with a 25" Lilja gave over 3400 with the 130 gr Weatherby factory ammo.My handloads operated at about 3350.

I don't own any of these any more mostly because none of them did anything I couldn't get done with a 7 RM and equal bullets.Actually you can take the 270WSM,7mmWSM,7RM,270 and 7mmWeatherby and drop them all in the same hat;there is no difference between them in drop,energy at close and long range,and performance on game.All will go faster than a 270 Winchester because they hold more powder.

Any of them will shade a 270 Winchester in trajectory to 400-500 yards by about 4-6 inches.If your rifle is not accurate,you may not see a difference at all.

The 300 WSM's I've played with (3 Model 70's and a Kimber Classic)were so close to the 300H&H that it was hard to tell the difference.Using RL22,both gave about 3150 with a 165 gr bullet,and right at 3000 with a 180(or so close you could not tell the difference).What one will do the other will do.

WSM brass is pretty tough stuff,and the factories load them to pretty high pressures.

Dober...the Big A should have a 25WSM reamer, I will reconfirm when next I see him, and one or the other of us can pass the info to Steelhead if he is interested...
Ingwe

[quote=BobinNH]Good post;Sqeeze is right.

Quote]................Bobin!!.........You forgot the,,,,,u,,,,,,in Squeeze!..... !!!

C`mon! Get it right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!...........LOL! LOL!

Yeah Dober..checked it out today...hes got the reamer....and I talked to the dude down the street, whom he built a 25 WSM for...
Shoots a 26" Bbl...110 Gr. Accubomb @3360 fps..
Excellent accuracy...RL22 or RL25
Makes brass out of .270 WSM, one step...no neck turning

FYI

Ingwe

How does that compare with the Roy?

Funny you should ask that question, cause the guy I was talking to was a real gun crank, called around for load data and got this from Sierra; Case Capacity/Water weight is exactly what the 257 Roy is, so work up data accordingly...speed/ bullet weight ratio is also so close it doesn't matter...so it would appear if you want a short wildcat.the 25 WSM might work for you...if you are more a traditionalist...the Roy...
Ingwe

.......typo's....

Thx Ingwe,

I'd think he'd do more than 3360 with a 26" tube though? Shouldn't he?

Guess my thinking is that with a Roberts AI one might be fairly close to that wouldn't you?

Either way it'd be a heck of a yote rig...

Dober

The 26" tube is what had me wondering. I'd think a Roy would beat that speed with the same length tube, but I've never owned one.

Not "Poo-pooing" the idea, it would still be a neat wildcat, but if the case capacity were the same, I would have thought it would beat 33 and change from a 26" tube.

My re-barreled & accurized Kimber Montana in .300 WSM weighs 6 lbs, 3 oz. (without a scope) and shoots Federal factory ammo with 180 gn Barnes TSX slugs into 3-shot 1/2" groups at 100 yds with an average muzzle velocity of 3150 fps.

IMHO, the WSMs are not about the cartridge but about the short-action rifle that shoots it.

--shinbone

...........Shin..........At 3150 fps with a 180 gr Barnes, I assume you have a 26" barrel? You either have a faster bore in that Kimber or that factory ammo is just a wee bit on the hot side; maybe both? Maybe Federal is now using the RL 17.

Agree with you! The 300 WSM is more about the rifle rather than the cartridge.

A friends 270WSM will get 3200+fps with a 140gr Accubond. That's off the chrony! So we see a clear 200fps over the 270Win.
Some other buddies(I have clocked(270Roy) 3300+fps with a 150gr TSX) of mine have achieved 3500+fps(270Roy) with a 130gr, without trying too hard either.
The 270Roy would be my No.1 pick if I needed a flat-shooting SOB that hits like a clap of lightning, without the recoil. Especially so with slow powders!

Just thinking it over some makes me want another 270Roy in a Wby U/L. 130gr TTSX at 3500 with R25 is something very very special.
If you do the energy numbers(ft/lbs) on that combo you will be in ORE!

OK some might not believe this but I will add these figures(chony'd) for those who have an open mind.
Rifle was a 270Roy, Mark V U/L.

My friend is a loyal Roy freak. He has had em all, tested em all & loves em all!!! From custom Crowns, Alaskans to early west Germans.

"I started at 77gr re25 and worked up to 86.5gr with the 130pill and velocity ranged from 3404 to 3797fps.

once again i have no signs of pressure in regards to primers or re-chambering or case head expansion and case length stays pretty much the same"


INPUT VARIABLES
Firearm type Rifle Sight Height 1.5
Bullet Weight (grains) 130 Ballistic Coefficient .460
Muzzle Velocity (fps) 3790 Temperature 59
Barometric Pressure (hg) 29.53 Relative Humidity 78%
Zero Range (yards) 375 Wind Speed (mph) 0


BALLISTICS TABLE IN YARDS
130 interbond 130 gr., .460 B.C.
Range (yards) Muzzle 50 100 200 300 400 500
Velocity (fps) 3790 3664 3542 3308 3087 2877 2677
Energy (ft.-lb.) 4146 3875 3622 3159 2751 2389 2068
Trajectory (375 yd. zero) -1.5 1.1 3.0 4.8 3.4 -1.6 -10.8
Come Up in MOA -1.5 -2.1 -2.9 -2.3 -1.1 0.4 2.1

I could get published velocities (3300/130 gr) with two 270 WSM's but could not get book speed with two 300 WSM's. With modern bullets I cannot see how the 270 WSM would not kill anything on the planet and in a lighter, better fitting package.

For kicks and Pro-forms I work a couple of nights a month at our local Wholesale Sports, formally Sportsmans.

In looking at what all the stores sell, you can't give away
a 270 WSM yet the 300 WSM's are selling off the shelves, literally.

That said, for resale, the 300 WSM is the better of the two.

Cartridge Information 270wsm; 300wsm; 338wsm
Index Number Cartridge Type Weight (grs.) Bullet Style Primer No. Ballistic Coefficient
PRA270WSMB Premier� AccuTip� 150 AccuTip� Boat Tail 9 1/2 M 0.525
PRSC300WB Premier� Scirocco� Bonded 180 Swift� Scirocco� Bonded 9 1/2 M 0.507
PRC338WA Premier� Core-Lokt� Ultra 225 Core-Lokt� Ultra Bonded 9 1/2 M 0.456


Velocity (ft/sec)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Premier� AccuTip� 150 AT BT 3160 2972 2792 2618 2452 2291
Premier� Scirocco� Bonded 180 SSB 2960 2274 2595 2424 2259 2100
Premier� Core-Lokt� Ultra 225 CLUB 2780 2582 2392 2210 2036 1871


Energy (ft-lbs)
Cartridge Type Bullet Muzzle 100 200 300 400 500
Premier� AccuTip� 150 AT BT 3325 2941 2595 2283 2002 1748
Premier� Scirocco� Bonded 180 SSB 3501 3075 2692 2348 2039 1762
Premier� Core-Lokt� Ultra 225 CLUB 3860 3329 2858 2440 2071 1748


Short-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 50 100 150 200 250 300
Premier� AccuTip� 150 AT BT -0.1 0.5 zero -1.5 -4.1 -8.0
Premier� Scirocco� Bonded 180 SSB 0.1 0.6 zero -1.8 -4.9 -9.4
Premier� Core-Lokt� Ultra 225 CLUB 0.2 0.8 zero -2.2 -5.9 -11.2


Long-Range Trajectory
Cartridge Type Bullet 100 150 200 250 300 400 500
Premier� AccuTip� 150 AT BT 2.1 2.5 1.8 zero -3.0 -12.8 -28.5
Premier� Scirocco� Bonded 180 SSB 1.5 1.4 zero -2.6 -6.7 -19.3 -38.7
Premier� Core-Lokt� Ultra 225 CLUB 1.9 1.6 zero -3.2 -7.9 -23.0 -46.5

The 300Roy/150gr & the right powder will clock 3700+fps, without signs of pressure! Now that's smokin!

Anyone running a 270 Wby with a 130 @ 3700 and a 300 Bee with a 150 @ 3700 is either smoking something and or really itching to have a gun blow up.......(and or both)

Dober

That's smokin alright! Crack Cocaine this is.

I can assure you I DO NOT do drugs!

R25 is the key to some of the Roy rounds with lighter pills.
If one goes up to a 150's(270) or 180's(300) R25 does not seem to work like it does with lighter projectiles.

Do your self a favor. Buy a Roy, work up loads carefully, mic just in front of the belt, check primers & see for yourself.

The problem we have here is that some do not open their minds & let their mouth flap.

I can even pull the email from Alliant regarding these loads if needed. Or better still. Email them yourself & see the response they give you regarding 130(270Roy) & 150's(300Roy) with R25.
It's a SAFE load WITHOUT signs of pressure in the Mark V!

One becomes ignorant when ones mind closes. Something to think about expert!

What is the pressure?

I've never tried to exceed the 3500fps/130gr in the Roy, kind of figured it was "good enough". That said, it was no problem to achieve it in a 24" barrel. I'm not sure I'd want to take a TSX or TTSX to that level.

...............I can understand a little skepticism here by the poster above who thought you were smoking some crack! However, I don`t think you are.

3700 fps or slightly more, for a 150 gr bullet out of a 300 Wby, is quite a jump from the maximum listed velocities from Hodgdon, Nosler, Lyman, which all list maximums at around 3400 and slightly over. And even Alliant, lists the 165 gr @ 3258 fps using the RL 25.

So! About 450 fps faster for bullet, that is only 15 grains lighter than the 165 and with no pressure signs???? Has Alliant recently come up with a new enhanced kernel formula for their RL 25 similar to what they did with RL 17???

How many additional grains of RL 25 over the listed maximum charges would be needed (that already get 3400+ fps with the 150 grainer) to achieve 3700+ fps??? And doing so without pressure signs??

300 fps or thereabouts, is quite a jump from the listed maximum loadings, whether it be from a Mk5 action or any other action.

About 55-70,000psi depending on load!
Remember Norma factory ammo is around 70,000psi, plus in some cases.

You can also use 'quickload' to get an exact figure. I do not have that package but if you do send me a PM & I will supply powder & grains used.

I will also try to get the exact info once I can contact my friend

There's a problem here alright.





You will supply powder?

I thought you were using RL25?

Sounds like you have a friend who reloads for you.

Good for you!

If your load is safe why does it need a PM to be given?

Let me/us know how many grains and I'll run it a QL for you.

Thank you!

You are going to show us something new here.

NO


YES RL25. RL22 is also good! Just not as good as RL25 with lighter pills.


ha ha ha, NO. I keep it simple with my 338WM these days. 210gr TSX over 76grs of H4831 has the thump I desire in my 7.9lb rifle.

270Roy first

He started(RL25) at 77(3404fps) to 86.5 grains(3797fps).
Standard Weatherby AOL used during these tests but as we know Roys have free-bore galore, which can be very useful!

Once cases become too full(higher loads) they where vibrated down on the side of a tumbler.

Let me know what you come up with.


Cheers

Not sure why anyone would want a 270wsm when they could have a 7wsm. But to each his own.

How many grains of powder are you using in the 300 Wby to get over 3,700 fps mv with the 150?

That's the question we have here.

OK.
Here is the original load development.
"96 and 99 gr of re25". 150gn = "3650-3800"


3 of my friends now run these sorta loads. Here is some of the latest data compiled by him.
"101gn Re-25 = 3787 - 3812fps". All .5" at 100(3 shots. Mark V).
WITH NO SIGNS OF A HOT LOAD

The secret here is to vibrate em down with your tumbler. Also, as R-25 is a slow burning powder recoil is not like it is with other powders. Rather a push than a sharp jolt.
Just do not try this with heavier pills. If you are using the 270Roy stick with 130's, 300Roy keep it to 150's!

bigsqueeze - (sorry for the late reply) - My rebarreled and accurized Kimber in .300 WSM which averages 3150 fps muzzle velocity with 180 gn Barnes TSXs has a 25" barrel.

Your shoulder (and eyebrow if you crawl the stock) feels every bit of those 3150 fps when shooting off the bench. Never noticed the recoil when hunting, though.

--shinbone

Agreed... but 7mm WSM is sort of dead in the water due to the initial screw-up by Winchester when they rolled it out... for instance, Kimber is not chambering it anymore (I have heard)...

..........Shinbone!..........For a 300WSM, 3150 fps is good velocity from a 25" barrel, or even from a 26" er using a 180 gr bullet. By chance with some RL17? What`s your powder and charge?

For my 300 WSM, I`m soon going to work up some loadings with 180 grainers using some RL17, which I haven`t done as of yet. Best so far with the 180s has been 2917 fps (max loading). Maybe some RL 17 can boost me to 3000? If so then fine. Although I don`t need that kind of speed, I`ll still be a happy camper with that kind of performance from only a 16.5" barreled compact.......It`ll be a "little" noisy along with some good shoulder stimulating recoil, which I like.

I ran this QL the other night, here is what it gave me.

300 Wby
150 grain bullet
RL 25 98.0 grains for 3,704 mv

76,469 psi

Yeah, your smokin alright. I not sure which is more dangerous.

Let's just say I would not want to shoot to next to you.


150 grain bullet
RL25 94.0 grains for 3,453 mv

psi 65,246

Max in book

ha ha ha still with the comments.

You would not have to worry about me 35. Like I said, I do not have these 2 cals. I'm a 338WM man at heart, with a 210gr TSX at around 2950fps plenty for my business!

I do know at least 3 that use these loads in their Mark V's, have done for a while now. One of which is a very experienced handloader, the others also know their stuff!

You might also want to look into how pressures are measured? Your program might say that but is that the actual pressure?
Why have they fired hundreds of rounds between em & nothing? Luck? Mark V strength? Or just a thorough knowledge of ballistics?
Study some more!

Oh I am sure they are! We all know our stuff!




I ran it default but I'll be my bottom buck it's within a couple 1000 psi or so.
If they want to play at near 80K psi have it it. I could care less.



Just load the 6 round cylinder with one round and spin it, see, it didn't get you. Do it again and keep doing it.
The more you do it the more Knowledgeable experience you have.




Oh I have alright and I'll do my best to stay at under 65k.

SU35

I was also sceptical when I heard about these figures from a 300wby. I have seen these loads myself over a chrony about 2 months ago.

I started playing with Rel25 & 150gn Speers myself.

Being cautious with my handloading I started at 95.0 grains rel 25 and worked up to 97gns - just out of curiousity.

My results were 95.0gns/3520fps, 96.0/3560, 97.0gns/3620fps average over a 3 shot group.

I left it at that - mainly because for what I want I do not personally have a use for a 150gn projectile at these sort of velocities.

I have been handloading for 15 years - long enough to know conventional pressure signs when I see them. There were none. I miked my cases (once fired), there was no sticky bolt lift, marks on cases or anything like that. In fact the case necks were still sooty.

The groups from my rifle were not particularly good - and I got the impression that maybe another grain or 2 would have tightened the groups considerably - something that is normal for the Roy rounds when they are not producing enough pressure.

I have not bothered with it anymore as I still think the 300 does its best work with a 180 projectile.

These loads that 340wby talks of have been tested across about 4 different rifles all with very similar results.

Not suggesting that anyone should attempt them - but with Reloader 25 and a 150grain projectile ONLY, this combination would appear to produce exceptional velocities without any normal signs of pressure in the 300Wby.

Good points mig,

I do know it has been discussed here quite often that
classic pressure signs are really unreliable to give you
an accurate indicator of what your loads are really doing.
Sometimes you can have flattened primers and sticky bolt lift and be under Saami pressures.

I'm into my 40th year reloading now to know this is true.

I love to hot rod rounds and I've poured enough kegs of RL25 in enough brass to know the stuff can really work and give you high speed without the indicators.
Miked case are totally unreliable btw.

I look at the reloading guides and look for speed that I can match not go over.

I don't think you'll find 3,700 fps mv for a 300 WBY/150 in any of the them. No, I don't think it's because they want to be lawyer proof either.

Those sure seem pretty hot to me. The Alliant max for the 270 Weatherby with RL25 and a 130 is 72 grns, at 86.5 those loads are 14.5 grains over their max! In the 300 and RL 25 with 150's, Lyman lists 91.0 grns as max and those loads you list start at 5 grains over their max, going up to 10! And using a tumbler to settle the powder? Doesn't that affect the burn rate (geometry?) of the powder?