OK, a few threads lately have continued to perpetuate the long standing myth of heavy, slow bullets being the ultimate in "brush" guns.
IIRC EVERY experiment I have ever seen or read about over the years comes up with similar conclusions,a .243 and a 100 grainer, a .30-06 and a 150 grainer, and similar high speed pointy bullet stuff all fared better in testing than the "traditional" brush cartridges.
Course, I have "selective" memory,and no citations handy, but " Brush" guns are right up there in mythology with "Barrel break-in procedures"

Rebuttals/ opinions???


Also...it has always been my humble opinion that I was out in the woods to shoot deer, not brush....just sayin'...

Remember one that shot through 1/4" wooded dowels and the best was a 12ga. slug. Shouldn't be shooting through brush, sure can't get a good sight picture.Rick.

Quote from Jack O'Connor - "I found that the higher the bullet velocity, the sharper the point, the thinner the jacket, the lighter the weight, the greater the deflection"

+1

A brush gun should be short and handy. The caliber of your choice will fair about as good as any other.

Put the first shot where it counts and you won't need to get a pump or semi auto for the brush either.

If you all would just pay homage to the 30 caliber, and forsake all others, it would be a much happier place.

I agree with you on the instance of people slinging bullets through brush/debris.

However, I think the term "brush" gun is a genre of rifle termed to desribe characteristics appealing to those hunting in the thick stuff. Often shorter barreled rigs with a great handling feel and often the capability of a faster follow-up shot. The parallel desire to sling a heavy (often larger diameter) slug to ensure thru and thru penetration on less than perpendicular shots is intrinsic as well, regardless of the fact that actually shooting through leaves, twigs and branches will be avoided.

I think the above features (quick handling, fast repeater, big slugs) allow for shots to be taken quickly and ensure blood trails when the animal doesn't drop on the shot. Especially when long shots are often measured inside of 100yds.

Ain't that what TSX's is for?....

I would think that even in tight woods, a hunter is not standing in an area planning to shoot game where he can not swing a 22-24 inch barreled rifle. Think about it, you would have to be in a stand of Tag Alders or simular brush, yes you could be walking or stalking, but a couple of inches is really not going to make a difference.
It has been proven that a long, fast spinning bullet is difflected less then a slow spinning fat one, just like a top spinning slowly and bumbed, it returns to the original spot more slowly then when spinning fast. On the test they did on this with dowels, it seemed like any hit of a dowell more then 2 feet away from the target diflected the bullet too much to be accurate anyway.
Bob

The best brush gun is one that is zeroed at 50 yards with a quality low powered scope and is accurate enough to thread a bullet through tiny openings in the brush. With a 50 yard zero you don't have to compensate for the bullet ever being 2-3" above your line of sight. With most guns you are still flat enough for the rare 100-150 yard shot. Caliber or bullet type is not nearly as important.

My understand is that heavy round nose FMJ bullets perform slightly better regardless of velocity because the weight is more forward on the bullet. With pointed bullets the weight is more toward the rear and they are more easily deflected.

I believe that any time a bullet strikes brush and still hits the target a lot of luck is involved. Better to avoid the brush with an accurate rifle in my opinion.

I agree

Quote from Francis E. Sell - "You have, on many occasions, to buck brush for a killing shot."

Sell's experiments showed:
"First, a velocity of between 2,200 and 2,500 feet a second gave the least deflection and no blowup. Second, a bullet weight in the neighborhood of 150 grain, or heavier, is indicated."

"The shape of the bullet from round nose to spitzer point proved of less importance than I supposed at the beginning of the tests. Both spitzer point and round nose turned in good performances when with proper weight, driven at the best velocity level. That's all."

The places I hunt deer you commonly don't see a whole deer. Just parts and a lot of times your bullet hits a twig that you couldn't even see was there in your scope. I've had bullets deflected while shooting 150 grain .30-06 but it hasn't happened to me with the 180 grain .30-06 or the .30-30 170 or the .35 200 grain. All this doesn't prove anything but it's just my experience.

I tend to agree with this...I don't think the primary attribute (at least to the better informed) is to have something intended to actually "shoot through" brambles and such.

My standard length 700 in. 270 win has done a fine job for me down here in brush gun land. I've never felt the need for a heavier slower bullet. Maybe a shorter rifle but that's only for sake of weight.

+1

I have personal experience with a 270 deflected by brush a few different times. In those cases there wasn't a lot of brush, the animals were clearly visible, just some small stuff between them and me. I'm not sure what would be better, but do know that my 270(s) were not particularily "effective". In one case the animal had been hit already but was jumped again within 40 yards of me. Two shots at that one, no hits (snow on the ground). In another case it was sneaking out of it's bed and getting ready to go into high gear, within 100 yards of me. That one was nicked, a few drops of blood in the first couple of hundred yards, then nothing.
One thing I do like for hunting in the timber is something with a 22" tube as opposed to anything longer, and something that gives a decent/significant blood trail when there is no snow on the ground. They are just handier for me to get into action, a personal preference.

I have been reading hunting and shooting articles for the past 40 years and have been hunting for the past 35 years. In that time I have heard every story imaginable on "brush busting" capabilities of various cartridges. One old deer hunter told me how his 300 Savage penetrated a 12" hickory on it's way to a buck on a running shot. He claimed to have killed the buck after leaving an 8" hole in the far side of the tree. I was to young to question an adult but found the story a bit beyond the scope of credibility. Veteran hunters have shared their accounts of bullets from their favorite "brush cartridge", not matter where in the spectrum it fell, be it a 243 or a 45-70, plowing unerringly through brush to their target. Any bullet, no matter the caliber, that makes it to its intended target through a heavy screen of brush, with no deflection, is indeed a lucky bullet.

I have seen most of the tests and think they are good for one thing ----selling magazines. There is no way to accurately duplicate brush deflection for every shot in a test. What is the diameter of the branch the bullet strikes, what is the species, is the branch under tension, is it under compression, is the bullet spinning clockwise or counterclockwise and which side of the branch did it strike in relation to the rotation of the bullet. Makes my brain hurt to think about all the possible and incalculable scenarios one could encounter during the course of a day of "brush hunting".

I have to agree with Jim Carmichael in this matter. I recall an article he wrote many years ago in which he stated, as one of the previous posters did, something to the effect of; a brush gun was one that handled well, instilled confidence in the shooter and was well balanced for a day of carry in the timber.

I'll get down off my soap box now.

Mart

Didn't JeffO solve this enigma a year or so ago?

looks like you may to differentiate twixt brush guns and brush bullets...

might not hurt to add a brush babe to this thread

He voided that test when he failed to properly open Nosler's new bullet boxes.






I like the way you think!

Couldn't tell you...I barely ever read his posts..


Interesting thoughts from you guys, some stuff I hadn't thought of before...


Swampy posting that he agrees with me is disturbing though....

Never have run a test ,think it would take a lot of shots under a lot of conditions to prove or disprove anything for sure.
I have missed deer in the woods and also hit deer in the woods where I wasn,t aiming. Probably deflection off of limbs and brush.
On the other hand I have had the same things happen when I have shot at deer in the open !
Oooooooooh well I tried !
guess I will begrudgingly have to accept the fact that if I missed or if I hit a deer somewhere other than where I called myself aiming that I just missed or pulled the shot !

I've only had a couple bullets deflected in brush, one was a 165 Swift A-frame out of an '06 that I was flinging at a wounded Waterbuck, and the other was a 55 Gr TBBC out of a .22-250 at a whitetail.

The whitetail caught the bullet and died anyway, Im still wondering what happened to the A-frame...the second one I sent didnt deflect...

When I'm hunting heavy timber I use a MOBU camo Browning BAR ShortTrack in 308 with 180 gr soft point ammo.
Topped with a 1.75x6x32 Leupold VX-III scope.

The whole short/easy to pack thing makes sense in the thick stuff..so does the "go with whatever caliber you like" school of thought..

I think we need to consider what caliber is best for a stand gun next. Which caliber can shoot through the hog panels better if the trophy buck is in the pen under the feeder or on the other side so you have to shoot through 2 panels to nail him at 100 yards or however far away your stand happens to be from the feeder.

270 wthby mag is eliminated from the discussion right off the bat. Ask me how I know.

Might as well go ahead and eliminate a .32 Rimfire from a looong time ago...don't ask me how I know...and I won't ask you....

Brush guns means more about pack ability in the brush and close quarters than caliber.That's just one reason the old 30-30 is so well thought of..Short and compact,easy to maneuver in tight quarters and quick to the shoulder.

I would pick my 18.5" Guide gun over my others for tight quarters/thick timber and the dreaded blow downs.

Jayco

Speaking of Brush babes, did I tell you guys about the lady I saw at a bonfire/keg party years ago?
She had a T shirt with mountains on her chest.
The t shirt read, " If you like my mountains you will love my Busch!"
whelennut
Anyhow I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed but I think that a 250 gr. bullet out of a 35 Whelen may just be a good choice for bucking brush. I don't think I will live long enough to get a statistically valid sample. Maybe a .416 would be even better?
But I doubt if a .243 has the same chance as a .416 for getting through and still be flying nose forward.

I think "brush guns" have been associated with certain chamberings due to the type of firearm. For example, the Model 94 in 30-30 or the 336 in 35 Remington. It's hard to beat a quick handling lever action in the laurel thickets of the Appalachians, not because it's a 30-30 or .35 Rem, but because it's a lever action and chamberings are limited. In all honesty, a short barreled, light weight, bolt action 30-'06 would probably do just as well, but it doesn't fit the "brush gun" mold. People will stick to what they have confidence in.

I stick to my guns here, ha ha. I think what we call brush guns may vary on what we call brush. Open timber gives longer shots, and arguably more time to shoot. The tag alder / black spruce swamps I call brush allow 25 yd to an extreme of 50 yd shots. I like slow heavy bullets because of blood trails and full penetration. I use single shots because they are short and handy and I know the shot I make needs to be right.

I do not believe in the myth of brush busting and only shoot through what I perceive to be clear shooting lanes. I use faster lighter bullets when in the open, and confess to using 30-06 and 257 roberts in the thick stuff when I have tracked game into it. I hate to admit they work just as well although I always wish I had one of my punkin rollers.

A friend shot a deer with an 06 reload of mine 165gr tsx that went through a 3" sugar maple and then hit the deer in the neck. he could not believe he missed his mark by a foot until returning to collect his pack from the stand and seeing the exit hole splinters on the maple. The maple was only 20 yds from the deer. Like has been said before luck vs management.

Randy

Three "brush" stories with which I was involved....

First was a Manitoba buck that caught a 160 Nosler from a 7 mag that deflected off red willow,tumbled, and spun through the liver....both front and rear core empty.I recovered the bullet.He was dead about 100 yards away.

Second was a 270 130 gr Bitterroot that deflected on unseen branches while snow tracking a lare buck in New Brunswick...at about 30 feet in a heavy pine thicket....it tumbled, smashed the upper leg,and penetrated to the off shoulder....he ran,bleeding heavily. I trailed up and finished him....bullet had peeled off the petal on one side;otherwise still intact but expanded.

Third was a conical from a 50 cal ML fired by my pal at about 30 feet ata big doe,and slightly uphill, my pal being low to the ground....no sign of a hit but we could not see how he missed....until we found one sapling cleanly cut off that had apparently deflected that big lead slug enough to miss her completely.

I never bought the typical brush rifle/cartridge thing completely....it seemed anything could deflect.Another thing i noticed is that a days hunting brought you from thick cover, to cut-overs, fields, logging roads,and power lines where shots could range from a few feet to several hundred yards.

I evolved to a light bolt action in 270 or 30/06(or something like them)firing a high velocity bullet of tough construction,like the Nosler Partition and Bitterroot bonded Core. It made sense to me that if there was a chance I would get deflection, I wanted a bullet with a better chance of hanging together at high velocity and close range,rather than something more fragile.

And the high velocity cartridge would do a better job in the more open areas.

This has worked well for me close in and far out;I hunt the tight cover of the Northeast with the same bullets, cartridges, and rifles that I have used in the west.

My best Brush Gun story and rig are as follows...6/06 with a 6-20 Leo on top with Premier dotz.

Dober

Oh yeah the story, calling Yotes about 10 years ago. Morning deal, 3 dawgs coming a hauling, they hang up at a bit over 300 and the trio sit there, and look and bitch and bark at me.

Well being as I'm a well trained Yote killing machine (thx Ingwe for a the training..grin).

I pop one of the 3 as he sits and barks and bitches at me. Well he does a back flip after catching "flight 70 NBT" right in the chest. The other two volunteers high tail it for the brush next to it.

Thick buck brush and my bud starts to look for them. Well sure enough he finds one in the spotter, gets me on it. I turn it to 20X and put the 300 yd dotz on his beak. Wammo and the beaks missing. We know there's a third on in that thick buck brush but no time to head to the old f150 for my Lever gun. So, my spotter finds the other, and after another 20X beak buster things are all sorted out and we're on the ranchers Christmas list again...

Dober

Brush guns are not for shooting through brush..Every hunter here knows the first shot is the most important and if your shooting through brush,you have know idea if the bullet will deflect or not!

If you don't have a "clear" first shot,a responsible hunter will pass.

Brush guns for me are ones that are easy to maneuver in heavy tangled brush/timber and blow down...If the shot ain't clear...Don't shoot!!!!

I don't!!!!!


Jayco

Mr. Poobah Sir,

I shot a test with my .358 (with 225's) that showed it doing quite well shooting through relatively thin brush. Then I did the same with my '06 running 150's at about 3050 fps. It didn't do as well.

To me, a "brush" caliber speaks as much to what happens when I shoot a deer at 25 feet. Slower and heavier is MUCH easier on the edible parts.

A guy or gal can test bullets in wet/dry newsprint or dirt/saw dust/milk jugs filled with water or like the pro's,ballistic gel.None of it is the real deal and shows us little compared to shooting actual game .

Shooting or testing through brush is the same thing unless "everything" is exactly the same which is not going to happen!!!!!!

A clear first shot or don't shoot!!!!


Jayco

I also ran a brush gun test of my own. I was shooting a 7mm Rem mag against a .450 Marlin. The .450 Marlin really outshined the 7mm Mag with 150's in shooting through thick greenbriar.

Brush is pretty easy to kill. Most anything will do.

I guess 98% of my criteria will be handling and balance. The other 2% is cartridge consideration.

No reasonable hunting caliber shoots thru wood well and your bullet won't appreciate it much either.

I tend to believe that bullet selection is more critical than caliber for that kind of work.

The best advice though, is not to shoot thru stuff at animals.

JM

Almost every "test" I read about used hardwood dowels, not fresh green branches. One I read had the 458 Win mag was the only cartridge that could consistanly go through the dowels. Another test it failed. The "brush busters" failed. IMHO IF the intended game was just a few feet behind some brush you could most likely hit close enough to the aim point with a well constructed bullet (not thin jacketed).

That's the ultimate question...Will a 300/350/405 or 550 grain .458 bullet deflect more than a high velocity 1/3 the weight and half the caliber.

If there is know clear shot,don't shoot and you did right!!!!


Jayco

To me a "Brush gun" is more about handling in tight confines. I certainly don't intend to take a first shot through brush or anything else.

Exactly!!!!!!!!!!

Jayco

Lee24 invented the concept of "brush guns."

He took the answer to the question with him to that great internet junk pile in the sky.

Simple answer from me is don't shoot through brush if you don't want bullets deflected.

I can't disagree, but I SAW surprisingly little deflection when I actually shot the test, at least with the .358.

I could dig the thread back up I suppose but it's one of those polarizing topics... everyone gets all pissy...

Well, you guys have all come up with good posts and points, and no contention ( wtf..?..)
Seems like we are all pretty much on the same page, handling qualities take the nod over caliber for brush guns...I know I won't intentionally take a shot where I can't
"thread the needle"...one of my brush shot stories was a whitetail standing right behind a thin screen of juniper, about 6 inches thick, I figured WTH, and sent a TBBC that way, sure enough, it was deflected, but not enough to not kill the deer....lucky that time...

Ok, if we need a little spice to the thread, lets talking about hunting wolves in the brush, and chasing them with pitbulls and democrats....

Can we hunt Democrats with wolves instead?

A pitbull would totally maul a wolf.. jeez dinkwe we've covered that already.......

How bout a reality show where wolves hunt democrats??

I have no brush guns, everytime I try to shoot through brush I miss.

Yep...and any kinda gun will do...

No rebuttals. No opinions. However, I've been having fun with a 12 guage Rem 870. It kicks hard, but at 50 yards and a plain bead sight I can stack (5) 1 oz slugs in a 3" circle. Dag-gum...I want to pop a hog with one of these things. Bet it'll knock the squeeeeel out of it...even in the brush.

GB

Had one. That's recoil!! In close it would put the hurt on a hog (or a Dem or a wolf)

Where I hunt you often as not might have a hell of a time seeing a deer 30 feet away. I cut shooting lanes. Long, wide shooting lanes. a brush gun for me is one that is quick and accurate at short range. My experience is that any bullet is so easy to deflect that it really doesn't matter which you choose. I have fired FMJ tracers into aspen cuttings and willow swamps. You would think that they should go in a relatively straighter line than a soft point expanding bullet. The damn things look like a pinball the way they bounce around, and I've actually worried they might just turn around and get me. There is no predicting where they will go that I can see.

I hear a Model 64 30-30 could work

Now my brush gun for the last several years, especially in the oak cuts, is the Marlin 1895 .444 lever gun. light and fast to the shoulder. It's 265 grain bullet is plenty even for those wood buck in Alberta,Canada. It kills deer better than the "Hammer Of Thor".

Quit yawin and let'z go git um!

I don't shoot any caliber bullet through brush and expect it to stay in tact and on track.
My brush guns aren't for shooting through brush they are for shots that are up close in dead falls and down timber.
I don't like blood mush from fast loads up close so in dark places I'll take a 45-70 or Whelan.
Lately it's been a bow though...

I have most all the brush and flat shooter calibers. To me the .308 Win seems to cover about all the bases. DMc's pump carbine in .308 would just tickle me to death for a brush gun. I would venture say that it may be a .358. That would be ok, too.

Just use what the Benoits have used successfully for fifty years; Remington 760 carbines in .270 and .30/06.

It only kills deer...not brush...trust me...

The kiss of death...?

Enough to have you waking up at night screaming...

He could be sucking up, agreeing with you, looking for a buddy. And you were not even pimping a 180 gr. Core Lokt in a wood stocked 30-06 Model 700, the mother of all rifles...

Red flags up...

Yep...I'm sleeping with a gun tonight...

ingwe,

I'll be in your town this weekend. Maybe you could buy me a beer?


Travis

35 Rem. This is my .358 Win:

Got yer controversy right here, O Grand One...


--------------------------
I've assumed in my 10-year hunting career that it was OK to shhot through light brush as long as the brush was very close to the deer (and not close to me). The physics seem simple to me; a bullet can't deflect much in a few yards. Acting on this assumption, I've shot a few deer under such circumstances and, in fact, hit them right where I expected to.

Some discussions lately made me wonder if I was being to casual in this assumption, so I shot a test the other day. Results are below.

I was shooting from 20-40 yards away. Brush was no further than about 8 feet from the target. I moved it three times. I changed my shooting position each shot to insure that each shot hit brush, and each shot DID hit plenty of brush, some quite a bit of the stuff.

The first two setups are a shot I'd take on game. Though nothing bad happened on the third setup, I probably wouldn't take that shot.

Rifle: Model 7 in .358, 20" barrel

Load: Sierra 225-gn Game King, 2500 fps MV

Setup one:



The result of setup one:



Setup two, below:



Result of setup two:



Setup three, below:



Result of setup three. This is the aggregate group from the three tests:



This was as I expected. It was nice to see it work out like I'd expected, though. It may be that if I'd fired more shots I'd have seen something different.

What about over-penetration. You might accidentally get two with one shot.

As others have pointed out, the FIRST requirement of a good "brush gun" is that it be short, fast handling, and balanced to give you the best chance of placing a quick shot accurately. If that first shot can't be gotten off quickly, you will almost certainly be faced with a more difficult (likely moving) target and your odds of placing that first shot properly are reduced.

I DO believe that the ability to get off a quick second shot is important, not to "blast away" at a running deer, but because it often happens in really thick brush that the deer has not identified or located you.....he has moved out because "something isn't right" but may not know exactly where you are or what you are. At the sound of a shot, many times a deer will freeze trying to locate the danger. This allows a second chance if thefirst shot didn't connect. That's not even considering the possibility of multiple targets when hogs are encountered.

As to the argument about slow/heavy verses light/fast chamberings, I can only offer 40+ years of experience hunting in the Big Thicket of East Texas where a 25 yard shot i sometimes considered "long range". While it is true that NO bullet can encounter anything except the very lightest obstruction without being deflected, the heavier bullet (due to momentum) MAY give some small advantage. This is not a reason to fire through brush instead of picking an opening as the amount of deflection is un predictable.....but in thick stuff ANY advantage is worthwhile.

The main advantage of the slow/heavy bullet is NOT to avoid deflection (that's going to happen), but to hold together better against light brush. This is more a function of velosity than caliber......however small bore rifles do tend to also be high velosity rounds.

At 2500 fps (or less) a bullet tends to stay in one piece wheather it hits a bone or limb. It mat deflect, but tends to NOT explode. IF you get lucky and connect with a deer after hitting light brush, the intact bullet can still be effective (notice I DID say "lucky"). A typical high velosity, cup-and-core bullet (over 2800 fps) tends to come apart when it strikes any resistance (that's why you use them....more damage when you hit an animal). The worst offender in my experience is the .243....not surprising as it has little momentum due to a light bullet as well as high velosity fragile bullets. Once again, this is a very small advantage, but it does exist....and in brush you need every advantage you can get.

The advantage of a bigger bore size is two-fold. First a bigger bullet leaves a bigger hole. This allows more blood to come out and more air to get into the chest. The result is a quicker (most times) death of the animal. This is mostly due to the lungs collapsing, stopping blood flow to the brain. A small bore bullet CAN (and sometimes does) kill just as quickly, but over time you will find the bigger bore bullet is more effective. This is important because in thick brush, the shorter distance a deer tavels, the easier it is to find afterward.

The second advantage of the big bore is the amount of blood it allows to pour out of a wound. Blood loss (to kill) is NOT the main advantage as internal bleeding kills just as effectively as external bleeding. The real egde come when you try to find the animal after the shot. In really thick brush a deer that runs jus 50 yards can be VERY difficult to locate....unless there is a good blood trail to follow. That's where the big bore hole gives you the advantage....more blood on the ground.

The bigger, heavy bullet at lower velosity also tends to penetrate better than the high velosity, fragile bullets. This means a hole in and a hole out.....more blood on the ground and more air in the chest.

To me, the "perfect" brush gun is a quick handling rifle with a big bore, relatively slow bullet of heavy-for-caliber weight. Add up the very small advantages mentioned and while none of thos advantages are significant by themselves, together they give you a definite edge.....and you neeed all the edge you can get when things are tight.

My own "brush guns" I use most often are a Ruger 44 Carbine and Marlin 1895 lever gun in .45-70.....both are used when I am in the really thick stuff. If I anticipate a possible shot of over 100-150 yards, I will be carrying my Savage 99 in .358 Win. (or possibly the Savage 99 in .308).

For general hunting I still tend to carry something that will perform in the brush (even if I give up some speed) such as a Ruger Mannlicher in .308 or my main rifle, an FN Mauser .30-06. I do have many rifles chambered for lighter, higher velosity rounds and I like them, but I reserve their use for more open terrain than the thickets of East Texas. It may not matter, but I just feel better putting all the odds I can in my advantage.

Add some persistent drizzle to the thick-stuff equation and there's even more reason for a great blood trail. Make the shot close and the shot angles sort of a "take what can get" affair and that 2500 fps looks pretty good as far as meat damage.

If I'm using plenty of gun and bullet, which I so far always am, I have zero hesitation shooting through light brush if it's close to the animal, not me as illustrated in my post above. If I were running light/fast/fragile, which so far I never am, then forget it.

I go with a brush-hog and 416 ruger.

Man I've killed an arkfull of deer with 12 gauge shotgun slugs and another arkfull with rifles ranging from .22-.35 caliber. After all that killin' I say with confidence that the guys singing the praises of "big bores" as being quicker killers are ALL WET !

I would love to, but I'm heading out at noon Sat. to go to SLC and pick up Chesty's Marine, and bring him back Sunday night for his Handling school...It's time to turn the little dude over!

Jeff O ...interesting pics and test...the other big variable, as you know, is if the brush is closer to you than the animal...then things can really go awry........

Saw JB take a whack at a springbok with a .338 and the bullet hit a stick a few yards from the muzzle...not a clue where it went, but I think it broke through the atmosphere, and we didn't have to worry about it burning up on re-entry...

Quantify "arkfull". Want to make sure I use it in the proper context.

I own several rifles I take into the brush if I'm walking/stalking. All are short, fairly light, point and come to the shoulder easily and are accurate. Mine are in larger bore sizes, .35 Rem, .358 Win, , 45/70's, and a .307 Win. They are in lever guns and shoot big fat slow bullets because I like them to run like me, big, fat and slow.

I don't know if they run through the brush any straighter than the other calibers I own, I always wait for a good shot.

If you want a dedicated, short range deer, hog or bear rifle, I don't see how you beat a Marlin 336 in 30-30 or 35 Remington with a good low powered scope.

Otherwise, you can shoot em with anything from a .223 to an elephant gun and be successful.

Theres something to that, I've shot a pile of deer with a .30-30 and under 200 yds. it is what your daddy always told you...a near perfect deer round...

Here's my "brush" guns. From bottom to top:

Browning B92 .44 Mag
Marlin 336CS .30-30
Marlin 375 .375 Win
Marlin 1895 .45-70




The .44 Mag was my predator protection (2 and 4 legged) for many years when camping with the family. 10 rounds in the tube, very light and handy.

Up here we either burn the brush or mow it. Shooting it might make you feel like you are getting something done (recoil) but it really has very little effect on the brush.

I had a M94 winchester in 44 mag years ago in college I used to hunt pigs and shoot sharks with...worked good....and didnt have to worry about the brush with the sharks!

Burning and mowing is too much like brush genocide..how could you?

Burning limited to winter with snow cover. Mowing limited to summer when snow is gone. Rifle good for all seasons I guess...



Mmmm, rifles, is there anything they CANT do?

I've toted a heavy-barreled 25-06 fitted with a 6x24x40 scope and Harris bipod, through the woods and brush while deer hunting.

Likely not anyone's first choice as a "brush" gun, but I was on my way to areas where it would be a better choice, so WTH? And I've actually killed deer with it, while in the woods and brush, so again, WTH? ;O)

Why would you subject either your pitbull or a wolf for that matter to a democrat. Perhaps the expression :Misery loves company?"

Randy

Best excuse you could have given... Congrats!


Travis

podunkkennels - Remember wolf's hunt in packs (their strength) so, unless the pitbull bought some friends to the party, bye bye pitbull. BTW - I LIKE pitbulls and admire their courage as hog catch dogs. Regards, Homesteader.

Lol I was just pouring kerosene on the fire and lookie what happened....

Probably some of you guys remember seeing in an ancient magazine where a gunwriter (can't remember who) was deflection testing fast and slow bullets. He was shooting through some vertical wood dowels with paper a few feet behind the dowels and all bullets deflected! Even a 500 grainer from a .458 win.

Travis,

You may want to follow up on that alibi. Ingwe may be headed down to the Swamp to visit his newest fan club member...

Those two seem pretty tight these days...

Bow O Truth Deflection Test

A �Brush Rifle� to me is a the .30-30 with 170 gr bullet or the .35 Rem with 200 gr bullet.
But, the truth is that any short fast handling rifle of any caliber will work.

My Brush gun:





35 Remington built to replicate the 308 7600P. I like to load 357 bullets into 35 caliber rifles.

I like an accurate short lightweight gun like the model 7 I pictured earlier in this thread. The object is to shoot thru the holes in the brush, not the brush itself. That is where an accurate bolt gun has it over any other gun. If you can drill tacks with your gun out to 100yds, you can get that bullet thru that 1" hole and put it in the deer's vitals. Slow rainbow trajectories make sneaking bullets thru branches a bit trickier.

Growing up we had to use shotgun slugs for deer. It was consistent practice, using Remington Sluggers, to shoot through any light brush, branches, or grass that got in the way.

Most of the time, the slug made it through and hit the deer. I have no idea if it was tumbling, distorted, or anything else. It did kill deer for us.

Your Poobahness

Sorry to have taken so long to respond, but I have been referencing the works that is the last word (Vicapedia) and have found your answer to the "brush gun".

Light, quick handling, and of at least .35 caliber.

See below:

One of the best "Brush Guns" ever developed is the Browning BMG (Ma Duece). A 30-06 clone. Little heavy to carry and expensive to shoot, but will get the job done. I prefer a 8x57 195gr. Horn @ about 2400fps.

My vote definitely goes to the Vicapedia reference!

The H&K 40mm Grenade Machine Gun is also very effective...

350 rounds per minute and has a 'box' 32 round capacity... A little heavy to lug around (around 60 pounds) so those that prefer lightweight rifles might go with something else.

Here is a little video of one in action;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hN4GlNZB1-g

I think we could've won the Alamo with a couple of those! Got it on my "want list"!

Yah Baby!

Skimmed this. Some decent insights and some (the usual) hilarious ones. Brush gun?? After crawling on my hands and kness through a blowdown following a heavily used deer trail, standing(?) up, and seeing the critter so close but so far and bringing my rifle up to shoot, I have learned to love my Marlin 1895SS. Big holes work better. Lets not go in to dragging one out. It hurts.

EvilTwin

That is right. The thicker the brush, the more difficult the recovery.

Randy

I really like the straight lines of that stock. It's reminiscent of an 1897 Model Winchester shotgun that I inherited. I would imagine that it points well with iron sites, or the low mount scope you so appropriately mounted. Is that stock "factory"?

GB

I ran across a guy selling 1100 20 Special Field stocks and fore arms on an auction site. I asked him if he'd sell just a butt stock and he agreed. When I received the butt stock it was exceptionally nice, and a simple bolt on application, (Requires the long bolt, not the shorter bolt that comes with a 7600). The checkering pattern even matched the 7600 forend. When I got it on the gun, the feel, balance, and pointability was unbelieveable. I called the stock seller and ordered another one. (Not cheap). I have another 7600 in 300 Savage. On this one I cut the barrel to 20"s and added the straight stock. Both guns are now my favorites.

Here's my iron sight gun and third 7600. This is a 35 Remington also:

Here's the transformation:

Now that I have the 9.3, I can shoot 'em through the braish, trees, limbs, so on and so forth. That deflection/inflection is all BS. Just remember to use roundnose boolits.

I've had a good bit of experience with shooting in and through brush.
While I've never lost one, the very first one, a small Blacktail, took a tumbling 200 gr. .35 Rem bullet in the shoulder at about 75 yds. It tumbled because it hit the very tops of a some tall range grasses. Took me almost three hours, some of it on all fours, with almost no blood, to find and finish him.
I've missed bucks at 40 yds. standing still looking at me. Bullet deflected. The one that killed him, was expanded and lacked alot of penetration. It lodged in the heart at about 40 yds as the buck turned to run. That's a 140 Nosler Partition from a 7X57. Hit him expanded is why.
There have been some others as well. But these two tell us something of what is faced in such situations.
What I've learned is it needs to be a rifle that gets on target easily and quickly which does not mean a short rifle. Plenty of power is nice to have. But even more important are those follow up shots. That's because the first one may have missed or, worse, wounded him. You won't know until it's over.
There are differences in bullets. The tactical community has found that the Federal Throphy Bonded ammo will stay on course when passing through angled window glass. Something the classic match ammo used by snipers will never do.
Scopes can help. Nice to be able to see that twig before you shoot. Helps to find a clear shot at the animal. Actually, I've found the 6X scopes, rather than the less powerful, do better at this, especially at the longer ranges. Don't let anyone tell you they don't work at really short ranges on moving targets.
For a dedicated "brush/short range/heavy cover" rifle, however, I like a 760 Remington with a peep sight in 30'06. I can shoot 4-5 inch groups at 200 yds with it and it has lots of power for anything I need to hunt in heavy cover. E

Silly me. I forgot to post the picture of my idea of a brush gun.



If you can't find a factory Brush hunting carbine to fit your needs, you can always make one yourself. This gun was a Marlin XS-7 with a 22" barrel. Now the 308 "X" gun has a 18.25" barrel and it killed 2 deer in the brush for me this year.

Well done!

I found that a S&W Model 29 works great for those type of situations.

Crawled through some Michigan swamps that you couldn't even swing an 870 with a short slug barrel.

Forgot about that one..BTDT a FEW times...and it worked every time....including my biggest bear..which was phun at eight feet!!!

Not a bear, but I recall a few wild dogs that staked a claim to an injured deer that ran into the swamp.

Bringing fangs to a gunfight and what not.

Not sure what set the fur in motion more, the thunderous boom, the flaming horns from the magna-porting, or the sight of their pack leader getting turned into kibble...

Still had to evaluate changing my shorts, regardless.

Eremicus,

I have made bold above part of your statement that I don't agree with. And in particular your statement: "Don't let anyone tell you they don't work at really short ranges on moving targets.

I for one and maybe I am the only one am uncomfortable with higher magnification at moving game. In particular a scope set at 6X or higher bothers me if I must find or keep up with the moving quarry. I have a lifetime of experience with this and have tried one eye closed or both eyes open.

I participate in running deer matches and have run them myself at our club. I think I am good at getting running deer. Remember when I suggested shouting "Maw" at running deer to get them to stop?

So for you to state: "Don't let anyone tell you they don't work at really short ranges on moving targets." May be ok for you but those higher magnifications don't work as well for me.

Do you understand this?

I remember an American Rifleman(Sep 89)that a FMJ223 was best and a 240 44Mag was the worst.

I've put into red a portion of your admonishment of E and have a question. Will you be following you're own advice when folks want to talk about using rifles other than what you prefer for big game? Kind of a pot and kettle thing...

For what it's worth, my Father has shot the majority of his woods deer while they were running. His weapon until recently was a 243 SAKO with a 4-12Redfield on it. It was usually set at 6x and I don't ever recall him missing a deer because of the scope.

Pointer,

Then of course since I say it works better for me then I can say what I prefer. As long as I don't say that everone must use my choice.

You see that its not at all a pot and kettle thing as I wrote:

"I for one and maybe I am the only one am uncomfortable with higher magnification at moving game."

Ho jeez... I sense a disturbance in the Force.

I'll say that going from naked eyeball (1x) to 6x magnification is jarring to me. I much prefer lower power setting in the thick chit. Just a personal pref I suppose.

As to deflection anyone who's played pool, much less taken high school physics, knows there's a reaction to every action. So in terms of taking a shot where you know you'll hit some brush, you have to be smart about it. No explosive varmint bullets, use plenty of gun, and for me I'll only drop the hammer if the brush is close to the deer and NOT close to me.

A twig 3 feet from the deer simply cannot cause enough deflection to matter.

It could cause the bullet to tumble and/or fragment. Didn't see that with my .358 (225-gn at 2500 fps) but did with my '06 (150-gn at 3050 fps).

In the final analysis, my final analysis anyway <grin>, it's much, much better that the bullet not touch anything between the muzzle crown and deer hide. If it is gonna, then I'll only do it under certain parameters.

One thing I don't get about the supposed "brush hunters"..

Wouldn't they be better served to back off, find a vantage point, and use an accurate rifle with quality scope to kill the animals as they went/came from the really thick areas? I honestly can't think of a more ineffective way to hunt than to stomp through the brush, hoping to jump shoot an animal.

Sometimes you have to go in after them and it's not about the caliber but the length of the rifle used in heavy timber and brush to maneuver as quietly as possible and still be able to pull up and shoot in a tight/noisy spot.

The 30-30 is famous for a short fast to the shoulder game killer.In heavy brush and timber,longer isn't better!!!!!

Jayco

Yes, I can understand that. Your expereince was/is with the old Lyman 6X scopes. Mine is with the Leupold 6X42's. The 6X42 Leupold have really large eye boxes and lots of eye relief. That does two things that one doesn't get from alot of 6X scopes. The large eye box allows one to find the image w/o any trouble. Using both eyes open like a peep sight, the long eye relief allows you to easily see around the scope as it comes on the target. Makes algining the rifle with the target simple and easy.
I find their 4X scope work a little easier, but not much. For those reasons, I've never felt much like using a 2.5X or one of the small 1.5-5X20 variables.
For really close shooting, as I indicated above, my dedicated "brush rifle" is a Rem 760 with a peep sight in 30'06. E

If you know the animal you want is there and he is going to use a certain trail at a certain time, fine. Take a stand. Works very well for many very tough to hunt places and on very sophisticated animals.
But it doesn't always work. If it is a particular amimal, he's in a particular area, and you don't know just where he is, or when or where he'll move, you have to go after him.
While going after him, you'll have to approach in a way that he can't scent you. As a mobile hunter, you have that choice.
The other thing is that some animals under some conditions aren't predictable in their habits. Even if you know where he goes, he may not move during legal shooting hours.
I'm certainly not against taking a stand and letting them come to me. But I've hunted lots of places and animals where that doesn't work very often. E

Very difficult to move around in a mature bucks core area and do so undetected. Sometimes a stand/blind is your only option. They don't get big by being stupid.

Seems like one hell of a way to blow out a big buck, rather than let the buck make a mistake.

How long of shots are we talking about too? 5 yards, 10 yards, 20 yards? I've made 10 yard shots with a 6x42 and 22" 30-06, in tight timber. Of course it was the rut, and the buck just stood up in his bed and looked at me. I'd never have wanted to take a running shot at the buck.

Calvin, if you move slowly through brush a few steps at a time and carefully look for whitetail deer you can get a shot before they bolt quite often.

I have probably shot just as many deer walking/still hunting thru the woods and brush as I have sitting on watch. In areas with alot of hunting pressure, you need to go after the deer after the 1st couple of days. I can't tell you how many years I listen to guys complain about not shooting a deer, but all they do is sit and wait for them. Deer in my area like the thick stuff and you often feel like you're hunting rabbits instead of deer. But, by taking the hunt to the deer, I have managed to fill my tag or tags for over 25yrs with only 1 season in 28yrs resulting in an empty freezer.

A brush gun doesn't have to be a gun used for still hunting alone. Some of the best hunting areas are thick hemlocks and pines where the deer travel thru my area and you need a short light gun to move around in the blind or treestand because there are limbs near you. That's why I like my model 7. It's just as much at home watching a field as it is in the woods on watch or still-hunting.

Whew!! If only it was that easy Calvin. Coming up on a deer in the blowdowns isn't quite jump shooting. Once they go into one, they don't just come back out. I still marvel that big bucks can even move through the stuff with their antlers. Actually, the usual is that you are crwling on all fours as quietly as possible and see a part of a deer anywhere from 5 feet to 15 feet away. You stay quiet until you can see a head. He isn't gonna run. He feels pretty secure with not moving much. He is. If you move 2 feet,he will move 2 feet. MAYBE with a bit of patience, the shot will present itself. The shorter barrels are great. Pistols are ok but the rifle is still better. One hardly needs much in the way of sights. Good irons are all. Very fun and challenging way to hunt.

Sometimes, but you also have to consider that a buck will seek that area for safety due to hunting pressure or returning from a feeding jaunt.

In the highly pressured, overhunted woods of places like PA the deer quit natural movement during daylight hours about twenty minutes after shooting light on the first day. If you or someone else don't get them moving they'll stay bedded down until dark. The problem with an animal moving through the woods is it can be tricky to pick your shots. Unlike a stationary, undisturbed animal which I seldom ever see in PA's Firearms season.

Years ago, I got to hunting with a few friends in Michigan, and chances were good during the mid-day that the deer would go down into the swamps.

Hunting central Michigan, there were areas of open farmland with sporadic pockets of woods and swamps.

If you wanted to slay something during the afternoon, guys would get to these wooded areas and wait with their shotguns (shotgun only area), while the rookie on the team would go beagling in the swamps.

Many times, the deer (including maybe the big ones) would break cover and hot foot it to the next nearest stand of cover. Hopefully a hunter would be waiting there.

As the rookie, I pulled dog duty (voluntarily, because I really didn't mind). Didn't take me long to realize that swinging even a short barreled shotgun wasn't getting it when on your hands and knees. SO, enter the 44 mag handgun, followed by an enormous 8 point, and two does. Sure it was a pain getting them out, but we ultimately perfected winches and cable retrieval.

Wasn't too long afterwards when everyone was sporting a wheelgun, and taking turns in the brush.

Not nearly the same at glassing a ridge and popping one at 300 yards, but good times nevertheless.

RWE,
That's why is called still-hunting deer, not still-shooting deer. Sometimes I wonder if people realize how tough it is to kill a pressured deer up close and personal. I often joke with friends that I kill more deer a bow ranges with my rifles than I do with the bow. When it's bowseason, the deer are out 50-60yds, and during rifle season when still hunting the woods and brush, they get shot at less than 50yds. LOL.

I occasionally hunt a field, but in the vast majority of the places I hunt the most "open" spots have about 100 yards visibility and that is through very small windows of brush. It's woods, thick woods. I use binoculars constantly to scan the edges of visibility, but no "vantage point" where a person can see over 100 yards. The "thick areas" are all it is.....

I agree on the very accurate rifle part. An accurate rifle is a big plus when threading the needle between limbs.