Is there really any difference? I have a chance at a 338 Win Mag, but it has a push feed action. I love the CRF actions though. I've heard the pros/ cons of each. Can you guys give me your input?

Thanks, Joel

I have had both CRF and PF rifles over the years. To be frank I don't know what the fuss is over as I have never seen one as significantly more reliable when feeding than the other. Never had a problem with either. Actually I have only seen one rifle that was put out of commission while hunting and that was from extraction issues and it was a mauser 98 that jumped the rim on a friends rifle. I finally got the case out for the guy but it was a headache. Another thing I have found that a CRF complicates is when you are trying to adjust your dies to barely bump back the case just enough that it chambers easily. Some CRF don't cycle cases very well, so running the resized case into the chamber to see how it fits is a pain. All in all I guess I have a slight preference for a push feed. I guess I'll just take my chances when I finally draw a charge from a wounded deer or angry groundhog.

I've had push feed 70s in .338, .264 and .300 Win Mag, and still have one in 7x57. Never had any problems with feeding or chambering in any of 'em (at any angle, to include completely upside down). I've had and now have several CRF rifles; Ruger, Kimber, MRC and a pre-64 70 in several different chamberings. I have had some feeding problems with some of them, but it was due to magazine feed lips, not the extractor. I'm with bangeye...don't know what the fuss is all about.

Thanks guys, I kinda figured it was a personal preference thing.

Yup just my preference but I would not pay the premium you do for a model 70 if it wasn't CRF. For a push feed I'll take a weatherby or savage.

I have both, no issues with either. The pre 64 in 300H&H does however feed like no other rifle I have owned.

Can some one brush the high points of both. I'm not following. Is it just the ejector?

The biggest difference is the ejector and extractor.

In my observations over the years, FWIW, selling prices on GB favor the CRF actions over the PF.

*****************************************************

'Most likely it feeds so smoothly because of the .300 H&H Magnum's TAPERED cartridge case which aids considerably in giving it that smooth feed.

Jus' my 2�...

Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

Yep, there is a reason it was designed that way, Others ae not bad, but the 300 H&H has a noticeably difference from other cartrigdes.

rbodenburg:In a properly tuned CRF, the rim of the cartridge snaps up under the extractor immediately as the cartridge pops up from the rails of the magazine.At this point, the cartridge is "controlled",because the extractor has grabbed it before the case enters the chamber.

In contrast,with a PF, the case is still "loose" until the cartridge has been pushed far enough into the chamber so that the extractor can snap over the rim of the case to "grab" it.

Ejection in a PF is controlled by the extractor,and usually a plunger ejector in the face of the bolt that is actuated by a tiny spring.The plunger exerts sideward pressure on the case, so that the case is kicked out of the loading port when the bolt is withdrawn far enough.

In a CRF, the extractor holds the case, until the rearward movement of the bolt causes a standing blade ejector to move into a recess or slot in the bolt,and hits the cartridge,kicking it out the loading port.Force of ejection in the CRF is controlled by how hard the shooter operates the bolt, whereas in a PF you get one degree of speed or force of ejection.

In theory anyway,and with a properly tuned CRF (not all are created equal,like anything),double feeding is prevented with the CRF because by the time the bolt has moved far enough to the rear to pick up the next cartridge,the ejector has already done its' job,and the empty case should already have been kicked out of the loading port(ejected).

There are other nuances but in general all parts of a properly tuned CRF must work in synch,and be properly "timed",and the magazine box or rails should be cartridge specific,the extractor of proper dimension and exerting correct tension to hold the case during these functions,yet be capable of letting go of the case as it is ejected.

Which you choose and like is a personal thing, but they operate very much differently. It is easier, and cheaper, to build a PF system than a "good" CRF.

Nicely said.

I've got push feed rifles and CRF rifles. Both work well. Truly have no preference.

I have M70's in CRF, PF and the oddball CRPF. I've shot a number of deer with push feeds, one with CRPF.

For a few years, Winchester made what they called "controlled round push feed". It has an extractor like a push feed, and an ejector like a controlled-round feed. I don't think it works as well as the other two.

Note that early Savage 110's were that way.

Yes, I can.

I have an absolutely MINT .308 m70 sporter and a near mint .243 win m70 fwt. Both push feeds. There isn't a damn thing wrong with either of them. I'm becoming very attatched to the .243. It's a great carrying rifle. Both function flawlessly. The .243 shoots Federal Barns 85gr TSX into 7/8" groups at 100.

You can get them for a fair bit cheaper than the "classic" or Pre-64's and still not have to worry about function. If you're going to be collecting them, I'd then go with the controled round extractor, they do seem to hold value better.

Nothing wrong with the PF actions.. In fact, they usually feed slightly better overall AND, as a bonus, they're usually cheaper to buy..

Gopherit..

I've got both also. A .270 Classic Fwt and an early 80's .25-06 XTR Sporter. Neither are going anywhere. Except for the diff designs of feeding and extraction both are excellent firearms. In fact the XTR is most accurate out of the box firearm (mine or anyone elses)that I've shot to date.

Thanks bob. Great detailed explanation.

"For a few years, Winchester made what they called "controlled round push feed". It has an extractor like a push feed, and an ejector like a controlled-round feed. I don't think it works as well as the other two."

I've got one of those, a Win 70 "Coyote" and dang, that thing feeds .300 WSM's slick.

Yep, Guy, your rifle pushed me over the edge into buying my 7WSM Coyote. Should have a Vortex Viper PST for it when I come home for Christmas. Need to order some 30mm rings for it.

Very few hunters will ever notice a difference between CRF and PF - and even if you do plan on subjecting at PF to terrible conditions, if you give it a little attention once in a while it should work just fine.

I've always had both in the safe and never really understood what all the fuss was about.

I prefer the Classic as it looks much better to me but the PF is a good rifle as well and a much better rifle than a Remington in my opinion. At some point I intend to do a .284 or 280AI with a heavier barrel and scope with turrets, I will use a PF action for that.

Under normal conditions there is no difference in reliability, especially when feeding rounds into the chamber. The CRF is more reliable when it comes to extraction and ejection. Particularly under harsh, dirty conditions or with ammo that might be out of spec.

Given a choice I prefer CRF, but wouldn't pass on a good gun I liked for that reason alone. I sorta think the push feed Winchesters are the most under-rated and under-valued guns on the used market. You can very often find very good guns at bargain prices.

I have a push feed 270 Win and love it. Barrel floated, action bedded; most accurate 270 I've owned.

I have two M70 push feeds from the 1970's that are my favorite rifles, very smooth, both are now wearing custom barrels.

I have both and the one flaw in the ointment is that the commercial and military Mauser extractor (except the Siamese Mauser) needs to be modified to allow it to snap over a cartridge single loaded into the chamber. If it isn't, and a cartridge is loaded into the chamber, the CRF extractor will lodge it into the chamber without engaging, where it can't be extracted. Removal usually requires a cleaning rod. Likewise, if a cartridge isn't picked up by the extractor as it rises from the magazine, same difference - a jammed rifle.

Most major brand sporting rifles made today use a modified extractor that function as a push feed, they'll snap over a cartridge rim loaded into the chamber, or engage one that is missed as it feeds from the magazine.

The myth of the superiority of the controlled round action is just that, a myth. If the situation is so dangerous then use of a double rifle is recommended. That jamming and feeding nonsense was used by the double rifle crowd to discredit the bolt action rifle, it's nothing new.

Pretty much sums up my feelings too. One of my favorite rifles is an older PF Featherweight that I rebarreled with a Douglas tube in .300 WM. Very reliable and lucky rifle for me....I always seem to find large animals when I'm carrying it. But nostalgia always makes me stop a moment and admire any CRF bolt gun.

AND...CRF seems to still find favor among DG hunters, at least among those who worry about doubling-cycling a bolt in a tight situation.

BUT....how many military weapons use CRF anymore? Battle weapons are all DG outfits.

I've got pushfeed XTRs, Classic CRF, and a new to me pre64. All of them work great.

The XTR especially were a well made pushfeed, much nicer finished than other brands.

Personally, i like CRF for staggered magazines, and midline feed for push feed. Many CRF rifles are actually significantly less CRF than folks might realise. There is much more to CRF than just a full-length claw extractor. I can only really see the advantage of CRF in a DGR (however, i use a push feed Blaser R8 on buffalo). However, if i was happy for a push feed action, i spose i just wouldn't choose the PF M70. In a twin lug PF action i cant see the point in going past the Howa/Vanguard action. If i wanted lighter, i'd go the M700.

Really, the only thing that has ever made the M70 "special" was CRF. If it doesn't have CRF it is just another of very many twin lug PF designs. And let's face it, most of us tend to buy a rifle for something that is a bit "special" about it. A push feed M70 is like warm beer. It is still beer, but there is nothing about it to make me like it.

A pushfeed Model 70 XTR is a much nicer finished, smoother running bolt, three-position safety, easier cocking rifle than a Remington or Vanguard. They just feel solid.

I have a push feed .375 H&H and it is a very nice rifle. Quite accurate and I have never had any problem with feeding or ejection. Now, I have not laid upside down on my head and tried it but overall, no problems.

Folks
Having been working on CRF rifles for now on 32 years, here are my experiences.....certainly not the gospel, but facts that I can demonstrate at any time.....
A claw extractor that can slip over a rim(drop a cartridge in the chamber , then close the bolt), can "slip over" the same rim if that round gets too much friction in the chamber(over-pressured, dirty chamber , ammo etc)
Less likely to double feed.....can some one explain to me just how in the hell a claw extractor(or any type extractor or lack there of) will make a person pull the bolt all the way to the rear ? Or not?
Several years ago at the Dallas Safari Show I had the one person who came around every year , I think just to bust my balls. Talked about a #$%^ rifle he had. Made by a famous gunmaker (whose name is mentioned here frequently) on a CRF Model 70. Busted my balls because I had rifles at the Safari Show that were push feed.
After three or four years of this, I got tired of his mouth. I made a bet with him.....bring the $%^& rifle here, I'll make some 375 H&H dummy rounds, and I'll show you how to jam it tighter'n a bulls ass in fly season. Several folks around got interested.
Next day at the aggreed time, he showed up with his rifle. Several folks had gathered to see this.
I put three rounds in the magazine, cycled one in the chamber. Pulled the bolt back just far enough for the round in the magazine to come up, then pushed the bolt as hard as I could.
It jammed so hard we had to get a small hammer and beat on the bolt. He left pissed off, but didnt bother me any more.
I have never saw a CRF that wouldnt do this, its just the way they work. They will jam every time if not worked properly. They will work flawlessly if operated correctly.
Same goes for a pushfeed.
Doubles are certainly better than a bolt from a feeding standpoint. Three shots are tough. Look at the innerds of a double....lots of parts..lots of places for dirt..she must be timed perfectly, or she will fail to fire.
My point is this : I have yet to see ANY type action that I couldn't get to fail pretty quickly one way or another if I worked at it, and none that wouldnt do the job correctly if I did mine.
Charlie

You're a brave soul Charlie...................

RDFinn
Having had to demonstrate this about once a month for the last several years has "stiffened" me in my position.
Better than that, I can tell you how to jam a Ruger #1....first, get in a semi-panic situation....them stick a cartridge about half-way in the chamber, then jerk like hell on the lever....then spend the next several minutes trying to get the lever back down...easier than what you think to screw up when you panic
Charlie

Charlie, sorry, I don't get it. If you pulled back the bolt on that rifle at the gun show...why didn't the cartridge retract with the bolt? That is the whole idea behind having the controlled feed...to retract the cartridge if one should short stroke, rather than allowing another cartridge to butt the one already in the chamber.

The Winchester XTR products that Winchester was making back in the 80's I'd guess, do seem to be nicely finished guns. Even the leveractions from that era had a really nice blue and good wood to metal fit. I've never owned one because I'm left handed, but my buddy hunts with a PF XTR and it probably a better finished gun than any of my factory Remington BDL's. If they made them in a lefty action I'd probably own a few less Remingtons and a few more Winchesters.

Interesting thread, but its gonna be a long winter!
I should add: Thanks to Mr. Sisk for giving us your thoughts.

Long cold winter at that....

Don't you realize that popcorn is bad for you? I have to send in a full report to Moochelle over in Hawaii.

The cartridge did come back with the bolt, but I short-stroked it so it didn't eject. It still had that round being held by the extractor, then tried to feed another from the magazine at the same time. Classic double feed from being short-stroked.
Charlie

I know. Maybe I better go and get some beer to wash it down with

Ha! More paperwork!

I've seen the same short-stroking failure of CRF actions that Charlie Sisk has been, again and again. It showed up most often when I ran the "charging buffalo" target at Charlie's practical shooting artrcourse for a couple of years.

For some reason many people have bought the notion that a CRF action is fool-proof. But if short-stroked, they can and do jam--because the next cartridge in the magazine OFTEN rises to the point where two rounds compete for the same chamber.

I did some "function" testing with a pre64 30-06 today at the range. I could jam it every time using the "method" of slowly chambering a round, but going too slow to actually catch it fully under the claw, then withdrawing the bolt quickly and grabbing another round.

I could also jam it every time by simply short stroking just like Charlie mentioned.

I could also jam it by chambering a round just fine, withdrawing the bolt and ejecting the round but doing the ejection so softly that the brass lay in the receiver, then trying to chamber a second round.

Lotsa ways to clog a CRF, if one doesn't run it right.

DakotaDeer,
I've got a couple late model(90's) CRF's and I can distinctly remember that same thing happening in one of mine when I was tuning up on ground squirrels. I wondered if the gun needed a little work.

Well, hell's bell's....I can drop my Chippendale tea cup in my lap if I try to lift it with the very tips of my thumb and forefinger, pinky extended....

And if I operate a PF in an equally pedestrian,feminine,fascile fashion,I can make the little old extractor drop the empty round in the port,and set the stage for a classic double feed.

Charlie hit the nail on the head...."It's the operator, stupid!" and if you operate anything in a manner for which it was not designed,of course you can make it screw up...

And who the hell except a rank amateur,unpracticed, and operating the bolt like a school girl, short strokes a bolt action? I mean it is the simplest of things to pull the bolt back until it stops, and then push it forward...isn't it?....I never "got" this,even with those horrendous H&H-length actions.

You can't drive a nail with feable little "tap-taps" of the hammer....you have to swing the damn thing....and a bolt gun is no different and should be operated swiftly, with force,so that the empty case is slammed into the ejector and sent hurling out of the port,end over end like a boomerang.It will be long gone by the time the bolt strips the next round from the magazine.

A bolt gun was made to operate fast and hard....you won't break it....

If a guy hasn't trained to do this automatically from the shoulder as the rifle is coming down out of recoil,swiftly and positively,shame on him..... Shows lack of training. and practice.

This is just an outgrowth of too much "group" shooting,our asses married to the bench,peering through a spotting scope, looking for another one holer to post on the CF,not wanting the precious brass scratched and dented as we pluck them from the rifle ceremoniously for another trip to the loading block.

Run the rifle the way it was intended,and these problems won't show up in a properly tuned rifle.


And I'll ask the smiths and others on here.....but isn't a properly designed CRF mag box supposed to be dimensioned for the cartridge,the ejector positioned so that the empty case should have hit the ejector and kicked the empty out just before the bolt is far enough back to grab the next round rising out of the magazine? Am I missing something? It seems to me if this is the case,it would be impossible for another round to be stripped until the empty is gone.(?)

Double dose of curmudgeon juice today Bob?

Nope....just pointing out that if you operate the machinery the way it was not intended,it won't work.

No problem, curmudgeon juice can be a good thing

Great post Bob - I agree with all of it! And I was thinking the same thing on the part above - will have to get off my lazy butt and check a few of my rifles.

Having said that - I have Win PF's, CRPF's & CRF's, as well as Rem 700's, Ruger 77's and Savages and have yet to have any issue with jamming a single one of 'em. Or even a round falling out 'cause I was shooting upside down . . .

I don't mind the PF actions, in fact I sold a nice one in .300wby not too long ago, that I wish I had back...Have a CRF .300wsm here now, don't mind it either!

Spot on Bob. While having grown up using a very nice heavy barreled sporterized m1917 I have to agree with you on how to run a bolt action rifle. I run the sumbeesh hard and fast like I'm shifting gears on a sports car. Sometimes thinking to myself, "take this baby". Now remember the original m1917's had cock on closing so it made it that much harder to land the bolt and cartridge to its resting spot right before it is ripped from the chamber and forcibly thrown 20 feet out yonder. Another is cycled into the chamber without thought or hesitation, that's just the way it's done...............Ok, the popcorn is gone so I figured I better vote CRF now. Pushfeeds are good but when I'm running hard and fast I reach for CRF...

run any of them soft and they jam

yet that's how most everyone runs them on the bench

DakotaDeer, You're right. The only gun I've ever had jam while hunting was .22 autoloader. They jam, because they run soft when they get dirty and hot.

As Bob says, when hunting, bolt guns get operated very briskly and that's how they were designed to work.

At the bench sometimes you're just not going at it like that.