More than a year ago, I purchase an Remington 700 adl youth in 7mm-08 for my boy. After 4 diferent kinds of factory ammo and 4 different powders with accubonds, partiions, interbonds and tsx bullets, the best this rifle will shoot is 21/2" to 4" groups. Yes, the scope is a known entity properly attched, and the shots were spaced out 6 minutes apart, and oh yeah, I had the trigger lightened to break crisply at 3.5lbs. So I call Remington's customer service and am told that they won't even touch the rifle because if it shoots any groups<3", it is within factory specs for accuracy! Although my own rifles are predominantly weatherby and sako, I have owned a half dozen 700s over the years and all could be made to shoot at least into 11/2". With this kind of service, and the BS about that being adequate accuracy you can bet it will the last remington. What's the point of "the most accurate out of the box rifle" that doesn't shoot any better than this? Well, I guess the local gunsmith has got to make a living too. I'll have him start with bedding the action and looking at the crown. Is this new for big green or was it just my turn for a lemon? If I'd had any clue of the cost and aggravation factor, I'd have just bought the boy a Tikka. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

that's awful accuracy <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> that rifle is destined to be a donor action. probably needs some action work and a new barrel, I bet it would shoot alright then. a shame that you were stuck with it.

"Sucks" actions are aptly named. It's really too bad that Remington doesn't give a rat's backside for their customers......DJ

For the money and the accuracy, I still say a Howa M1500 is tuff to beat.

Sure seems it is hit and miss with Big Green. I picked up a couple Model 7 Mags both in 7Saum the price was right and one was destined to be a 6.5x7Saum. Lucky I decided to scope both up and shoot before the donor was sent off. Rifle A will put just about all the factory ammo into 11/2� and three handloads I found so far �-1�. Rifle B would not hold 2-3� with anything and a couple of the factories loads were worse. I guess it is a Monday or Wednesday or Friday build thing. But I must say their quality has really gone south. In this case not such a bad thing as one was destined for an experiment. But it is still the point of quality control that bothers me. By the way when the smith I have build my rifles locally called he mentioned that it was arguably the worst barrel he has seen on a factory rifle in a long time. DougD

Wow, your results are the exact opposite of ours. I hate to admit it, but I covet my son's 700 ADL Youth in 7mm-08. If yours is box stock and you want to deep discount it to relieve your conscience that you are dumping it off on someone, please shoot me a PM. Ours generally has been consistent with just about everything we have shot. When my son wanted to go deer hunting last year, I light loaded some Nosler 140 grain ballistic tips to a MV of 2400. (We did screw on a take off full size wood stock because my son ougrew the plastic.) My son's first two shots at 100, with a 25 year old 2x7 Redfield Widefield scope not adjusted, were touching. His next 3 shots after dial-in went, by my calculation, 1.32." I couldn't believe it so I said "give me that thing" and got 3 shot group about 1/4 that size. I am attaching the pictures of the 3 groups. Please excuse my photography, and if I have the group sizes off by a couple of hundreths, oh well. I don't have accurate notes of groups using factory 140's, but they still were much better than the groups you are getting. I am working up full house TSX's right now, but haven't had a chance to test them.

I can't figure out how to post 3 pictures in one post, so here are his first 2.

His next 3.

My 3.

P.S. I am not a great shooter.

It's always a crapshoot with a factory gun. However, somethimes they just are fussy about what they like. I once has a Sendero in 300 Win that would shoot the factory ammo it liked into 1/2 to 3/4" groups, but the factory stuff it didn't like would go into 4"..............

Yep, and Winnie is just as bad as Sucks for their "accuracy guarantee." Unfortunately, I've heard the same "it ain't broke if it's within 3"" about Ruger and Savage as well.

Kinda puts that 1 1/2" guarantee and factory target from Weatherby in a whole new perspective, doesn't it? I mean, if Weatherby is going to offer - and back up - this kind of accuracy from even the entry-level Vanguard combos (rifle, Bushie scope, mounted and at least bore-sighted, with hard case for less than $500), why go with any of the rest for the $$$?

outta the box 300 Win. savage 110 package gun with [bleep] simmons 3x9 scope. outta the box has put 3 shots touchin each other at a 100 yards consistantly with store bought 180 grain cor-lokts. its ugly, and its accurate

My most accurate out of the box rifle was a Remington. Of course it is a M40XBBR bench rest gun in 6X47. I liked that rifle because it was so accurate I could test components with it, and measure the effect.

The most accurte hunting rifle is a Ruger #1 in 6mm Rem made in '76. I once averaged all the groups I had shot with that rifle, and the average was .75", including all the groups fired testing loads (good and bad). It really shoots well for the loads it likes, and shoots anything into an inch.

I quit buying Remingtons over the Walker trigger fail to fire issue. Too many good rifles out there.

Factory ammunition now is as good as the handloads I was doing 25 years ago. Remington should have better standards than 3". A 3" standard is factory rifles and ammo with iron sights from 30 years ago.

jim

Out of the box,,,, - Weatherby in about any model and/or caliber.

Tikka and sako rifles must shoot 1" groups before being sold according to the Beretta website.As far as 700's are concerned,I have owned several and developed loads for about a dozen more and all shot groups less than 1-1/2" with most doing 1" or better.

I have yet to own a Remington rifle that would not shoot 1�" or better with a load it liked, and I've owned a potfull of them since they debuted in '63. Recent acquisitions include a 223VLS, a 30-06SSDM, a 8x57 "Classic", a 300 Savage "Classic" These are all rifles that consistently shoot under 1" The VLS is an honest �MOA rifle with a couple of loads. Now, I'm not saying they don't turn out a few "duds"! Every manufacturer [including Weatherby, Sako and Tikka] does. I believe that some of the older 700's had an edge when it came to quality overall, but Big Green is still turning out some very accurate rifles. For every vocal statement regarding lousy accuracy, I'll bet there are 100 silent shooters owning accurate rifles that have been purchased, and this includes many manufacturers. FWIW, I would not be happy with a 3" group average, and would whine until I got some results. Regards, Eagleye.

Elkaddict...

Sorry to read that you boy's ADL won't shoot worth a darn. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

I've heard from other hunters/shooters that Big Green has an "attitude" problem. And their way of getting out of "responsibility" is going to lose customers for them in the long run. But that doesn't solve your problem.

My bestest hunting buddy has an older Rem. 700 BDL in .30/06 that has shot 1� inch, 5-shot groups at TWO HUNDRED YARDS... or .75 minutes of angle... with FACTORY LOADS! (Unbelieveable!!!)

That said, I recommended (2 years ago) and my Godson bought a new Tikka Whitetail Hunter Deluxe with the roll-over comb... and it is not only a very BEAUTIFUL rife, it shoots into less than one inch at 100 yards! Once I begin handloading for him, I'm sure we can improve upon that record. But right now, he is away at college and doesn't have time for such enjoyable hobbies.

My friend... "life" is too short to put up with ornery, poor-shooting rifles. The few hundred dollars you spend for your son's NEW rifle will be well worth the happiness in his demeanor when he shoots his first less-than-an-inch, 5-shot group with his new Tikka.

'Nuff said?


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

I have 7 M600s and 700s in the safe right now made from the mid 60s to just last year...there is not a one that shoots OVER MOA. Just sold a M700 V .223 to a friend that runs .25 MOA. A few weeks ago he shot an honest one hole 3 shot group with Federal American Eagle HPs. The only way you could tell there were three rounds through the hole was skid marks at about 6 and 8 o'clock in the original hole. The LTR I bought to replace the 700V is a .308 and is running .4 with factory loads and .3 with handloads. I've had probably 5 other 700s and none, once settled in, shot over MOA. A friend just bought a M673 in .350 RM that runs MOA or better.
Sorry to hear that your gun isn't doing all that well but overall I think a Remington out of the box will generally do better than anything else out of the box....Bob

Cheyenne---the boy can definitely outshoot his Uncle Steve. My son's Model 7 .223 youth is a tackdriver with only a trigger job for tuning. Most Remmys I've had would beat 1 1/2' with minimal tuning and good factory ammo.

One 700 in .22-250 wouldn't go less than 2 in with anything, which made it kind of useless as a walk around varmint rifle, but I fixed it.....all it took was lopping 3 inches off the barrel, target crown, rebore to 7-08, install tupperware stock and full length glass bed job. Now it's just fine. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Rossi, I am in agreement with you. The Howa 1500, or the Weatherby Vanguard are very accurate rifles for production rifles. They also look nice, with a good finish to them. I have been extreamly impressed with my Vanguard 257 wby.

I should also state, the 3 700's I have are great shooters.

I personally wouldn't own a 700 as a boat anchor, but that is unusual for a 700 not to shoot better than that. The problem of course is the factory tolerance of 3". I remember that Browning BARs is 4! "! That's where the beauty of the Weatherbys come in, even on their 350dollar Vanguards. NOBODY can touch that and in the new catalog, the Vanguard "SUB MOA" GUARANTEES .99" accuracy for about the same price as a BDL. jorge

To me, the Wby accuracy guarantee has always been a bit of hype. MOST bolt action rifles will shoot handloads and the occasional factory load under an inch, that is, assuming three shot groups and keeping the barrel reasonably cool. Most won't hold that level of accuracy if you try to shoot them like a competition rifle ( IE, four or more consecutive groups), which I am often guilty of.

However, a 3" standard is crap. Since 1948, Remington bolt actions have set the standard for accuracy. They displaced all the Mausers and Model 70s from shooting competitions where a high level of accuracy was required--like benchrest. Now, those were not factory stock rifles, but rifles built on trued actions with custom barrels. The 700/40X dominated BR until the 80s, when full-up CNC machine custom actions started to take over. Still, you still see an occasional 700 in BR.

My point to all that is it is just not hard to get a 700 to shoot "hunting" type 3-shopt groups under an inch. (Assuming good bench technique.) If a factory 700 cannot do that with good handloads, a propper bedding job, and a 3 lb trigger; then the action needs trued or the barrel is bad or something else is wrong.

If you take the bedding job and handloading out of the equation, a 700 with a 3-4 lb trigger should still be able to shoot the factory ammo it likes into 1.5". If it doesn't, then Rem should warranty it. Crud, it is unusual for a 700 not to shoot that well.

However, perhaps for the mythical guy we all love to turn up our noses at, who shoots off a pile of sandbags with no rear rest and the cheapest factory ammo he can find, gets the barrel too hot to even touch, doesn't know how to properly clean a bore, ets; and add to that the typical 7lb trigger pull found on an out-of-the-box rifle, maybe 3" isn't so unreasonable.

And unfortunately for us, we rifle loonies are not the ones that buy most of the stuff............

I don't know if this was a Monday morning or Friday afternoon rifle. [bleep] happens--I understand and even have some level of patience for this principle. What I can not accept is the attitude from a company that advertises their product the way they do. I've had to send other rifles in warranty work, even one weatherby. Was I annoyed? Sure. Did the inconvience associated with trying to get a bad barrel to shoot well cost me $. You bet. The difference is the fundamental way the likes of Weatherby or Leupold attend to customer service. Can you imagine someone from Weatherby actually trying to tell a custormer that 3" accuracy was adequate or Leupold telling a customer that a shifiting point of impact was acceptable? After listening to Remingotn's crap and adding up what I've spent on factory ammo and loading components, it is difficult to think kindly about big green. With any luck, the action bedding and crowing that are in process will improve things. If it talkes a new barrel, I'll really be pissed at what my boys rifle cost! Is anyone from customer service listening?

AggieDog,

That is another good point about the M1500. It is proportioned nicely, from the .620" contour barrel to the one piece integral bolt and handle. It is a nice package. There are also very few actions that are solid forgings and on the market today. The Howa is one and the Zastava 98 Mauser is another. I think the huge, flat recoil lug is one of the key elements to accuracy on the Howa M1500.

In any event, I can't think of a better shooter and solid turn bolt for the money. Howa has been in the rodeo for a long time, just recently have consumers come to appreciate what they offer.

I have always liked the Howa as well, but don't forget they have a recall on certain rifles that could fire before the bolt was fully closed, which can cause serious injury to the shooter. I'm sure the newer Howas have fixed that, but if I got a hold of a used Howa, Wby Vanguard, or Mossberg; I would see if it was one of the affected serial numbers and make sure it has had the recall mode.

http://www.regcen.com/howa/

Our family has used Remington rifles for decades. We have around half a dozen of them, mostly their cheaper models like the ADL Synthetic, which we have in the form of a .300 Win and a .270 Win. My dad and his younger brother both use pre-82 ADLs with wood stocks in .30-06. I use a BDL in 7mm Rem Mag. Not a one of the rifles wouldn't shoot 1.5 inches out of the box--and mine had an attrocious lawyerized 8 pound trigger pull. With a trigger job and a little bit of handloading TLC every single rifle will shoot sub-MOA. I consider myself to be an average or even slightly below average rifleman, and definately not up to par with most of the riflemen on these boards, but even I managed to squeak out a 1/2 MOA group and several 3/4 MOA groups. Heck, my grandpa uses a Remington 7600 .30-06 that he has had for as long as I can remember and even it will do better than 2 MOA.

elkaddict , pull the action from the stock and look closely at the recoil lug. A friend had a model 7 that had accuracy issues and when he pulled the action the recoil lug was off center and when the action screws were tight the lug hit the bottom of the stock.

SAVAGE gets my vote! The ACCUTRIGGER is sweet!

Next time purchase all Remingtons (if there is a next time) from a gun shop that gets the rifle from Davidson's wholesalers. Davidsons will provide a warranty in addition to the remington (so called) customer service. I would think that Davidsons would send you a new one to replace it.

If your SUCKS really shoots that bad, I'd stongly suspect the crown. Either that or your mag box is installed improperly and putting the action in a bind. I've never seen a 7-08 of any flavor that wouldn't shoot well.

After you verify the mechanics, spend about $15 on a box of Match Kings. Load them over a nice charge of RL15 or H4350. If it still won't shoot reasonably well with that combo, then I'd suspect a barrel problem.

Of course I am also assuming that you've checked that your loads are good and straight.

As of right now, if it were my rifle, I'd be a LONG ways from condemning it.

I kind of understand where Remington is coming from. Even if they did have a 1" guarantee, how many people can actually shoot that well. I've bought plently of "inaccurate" Remingtons and "miraculously" got them to shoot with just a little bit of work.

I bought one of the Wal-mart clearance special 700adl's in .223 a few months ago. Figured for $300 I couldn't get hurt too bad. How it shot "out of the box" I have o idea. Before I had been home an hour with it, I had the dremel going and was in the process of glass bedding it. Had to wait on scope mounts to come in the mail, so I just got a head start on what I knew I would do eventually anyway. I definatly didn't get hurt. The gun shoots under 3/4" groups with several loads. Only problem I've had is the extractor is too tight. It was tearing case rims everytime I chambered a round, reload or factory. Took the exractor out, figuring something was under it , but that wasn't it. Guess the groove isn't cut deep enough. Stoned the extractor till it's usable, but expect to get it checked sometime.

My 1st centerfire rifle was a 700 BDL in 30-06 and it was the worst shooting rifle I've ever owned. I got rid of it but when the Classic series came out I decided I had to have one and picked up a 350 Rem Mag. I loved the way that gun fit but it wouldn't shoot worth a damn even after bedding the action, floating the barrel and shooting a half dozen different bullets/loads. I sold it and 2 days later a 35 Whelen showed up at the shop down the road so I grabbed it. The trigger in that gun was the worst of the 3 but it would shoot around MOA with the Rem factory ammo. I put a Timney trigger in it and now it shoots less tha MOA with Fed Premium ammo. So, it only took 3 700's for me to get a good one. I love that 35 Whelen Classic but I would never recommend a Remington 700 to anyone as an accurate out of the box rifle.

Out of the seven Remington bolt guns I have been personally acquainted with, none had any problems getting 1" groups with some type of factory ammo.

The first thing you need to do is check the crown--it may have gotten dinged, or maybe Remmy just didn't finish it well. Next is the bedding. It will rarely (if ever) be the barrel that needs swapping for "hunting" accuracy.

Thanks Blaine for posting the safety recall. I am working on a load for a friend's Mossberg that needs this recall done.
Thanks again, 757

Blaine: You are correct..sort of about the Weatherby guarantee being mostly hype in that just about any rifle out there will shoot sub MOA. The hype becomes reality with the subject post in question in that Remington won't fix it because the accuracy is within their 3" tolerances. Weatherby in turn will FIX IT and get it to shoot, usually sub MOA and that included the 350 dollar Vanguards.

Also, before 1964, Model 70s were the "match kings" and to this day, they remain as the most prolific winners of the Wimbledon Matches. We can't really argue "what might have been" but my take is that the armed forces would have never gone to the 700 had Remington's economies of scale not been able to underbid everybody else for the contract and Winchester's decision to discontinue the CRF rifles which coincided with the switch to 700s. Further, my good friend and business partner is a retired Marine LTCOL Scout-Sniper that trained under Carlos Hathcock. Virtually all the men that trained with both Weapons prefer the 70 over the 700. Easier trigger to work with easier to clean and disassemble, particularly under field conditions. Also, the armed forces switching to 700s is not a good analogy. Look at the M-9 (Beretta) contract. For starters, the M-9 can't hold a candle to the 1911 and the Sig clearly beat the Beretta in competition. The main reson we didn't build more 1911s was Colt's UNION DRIVEN exorbitant costs. It was only when Beretta wielded it's considerable economic prowess AND agreed to build a factory in Maryland that they won the contract. I can tell you that from a durability standpoint and combat effectiveness, they have been less than ideal. Sorry to digress but I for one don't buy into the urban myth about Remington's supposed accuracy superiority above all others. jorge

I'm sure it's just a bedding problem or the barrel/forearm are making contact someplace they shouldn't. Try freefloating the barrel first (easy to do yourself) or take it for bedding.

I sold my old 300 win and picked up one in the CDL. My old reliable load which shoots around an inch in 4 different 300 wins 180 NP, 76 grains of R22, F215, ww brass shot 2 1/2 inches in the CDL. I about crapped my pants, I had sold off a sweet shooter to get the CDL. I got R19 to shoot about 1 1/2 which relieved some of the stress and then got Mule Deer's 300 win load of 75 grains H4831 to shoot 3/4 with wmr and ww brass after reading his loads that work article. I still haven't free floated the barrel or bedded the action. I wanted to see what I could do with the out- of the box rifle, before I screwed it up worse.
My daughters youth adl in 243 shoots about a 1/2 inch with Sierra 60 grain hp's and H380. It'll do under an inch with 100 grain partitions and IMR 4831. Bone stock. I didn't even lighten the trigger. Thoughs where the first two powders I messed with. And found the loads within the first few groups shot. And the loads repeat their groups.
I've had the same experence as you with other rifle brands, but (knock on wood) have had excellent luck with every sucks I've owned.