I'll bet I've received 30 PM's in the past year about these two rifles. This question comes up a lot, "As your go to rifle, which would you grab, the .308 or the .260?" I thought it was time to do a real world head to head comparison. I have quite a bit of field time with the .308, with numerous big game kills and 800+ coyote kills. Last fall, all of my big game hunting was done with this lightweight GA Precision built .260. I also have a heavier .260 that I've used to take 231 coyotes with.

The two are almost identical, other than the .308 is based off a Remington short action and the .260 is a Templar(Defiance)short action. Both have Rock #3 barrels at 24". The .260 is a 1-9", the .308 is 1-11". Both are 5R. Both are stocked with Mcmillan Hunters EDGE stocks. Both rifles utilize Badger M5 bottom metal and use detactable AI mags. Both rifles sport Jewell triggers. I'm running S&B 10X42 PMII's, mil/mil, mounted in Talley LW low 30mm rings, attached with 8X40 fasteners(Remington receiver was modified for this upgrade). There is a slight difference in weight as the Templar action has a bit more steel in it(thicker in the rear section of the receiver), and the .308 barrel has a bit less steel per larger bore diameter. The .308 weighs 6 ounces less than the .260. The Templar bolt is one piece contruction and is lightly spiral fluted, The Remington handle is soldered on. The Templar extractor is an M16 style. Both rifles have "tactical" bolt handles.

The loads have been worked up and tested for both rifles and are as follows:

.308(green rifle)
155gr Lapua scenar
Lapua brass
45.5grs Varget
Wolf(Tula)LRM primer
2.810" coal
2950fps.

.260(black rifle)
130gr Berger Hunting VLD
Lapua brass
44.2grs H4350
Wolf(Tula)LRM primer
2.810" coal
3000fps.

Both rifles have proven to be sub .5" at 100 meters with the above loads.



In the next few weeks I'll be putting these rifles up against each other in the field under many different conditions. It won't be a ballistics calculator comparison....we're all guilty of too much "paper ballistics" at times, myself included. This will be more of a practical difference comparison for hunting big game animals. All of the shooting will be from field positions without the use of a bench.

I had a 6.5MM GAP once. O' sorry that was a 6.5 JAP!

Oh boy I am looking forward to watching this test.

Be interesting to see how it all pans out. Is the Wolf a fairly hot primer Pat? Seems to me that you're getting a lot of speed with those charges and 24" tubes? Or are the chambers cut fairly tight?

Thx
Dober

(did you or are you gonna make it this way 4 bruins? We saw one the other night that looked more like a black Toyota truck than a bruin. Now we just have to find him again!)

This should be fun....

Mark,

I got very close to the same speeds with my 308 Rock barrel using FGMM primers.

I ended up backing the charge down a grain for a bit more accuracy. But I doubt the speeds have much to do with the Wolf/ Tula primers.

Can't speak for the 260 speeds though....

Lookin' forward to this.

Thanks for taking the time.

Looking forward to the field results - great post by the way thank you!

Thx OSD, r you coming this way this spring?

Dober

+1

The bruins will get a free pass from me this year. I used my vacation time/gas money to go to Icebreaker instead.

Next year however, I'm going to try and swing both.

Been missing it.

Pat, does this mean you'll be giving away whichever rig comes out on bottom?

Missed seeing ya this spring, how about Sept?

Dober

Wolf/Tula seem to be about the same as a F210M, or CCI BR2. They just closed up my ES a bit. I switched a couple years ago.

I was over your way in mid May for bears, but had to cut it short for work commitments. I did see one nice brown boar that I would have shot but he was in a tough spot and didn't give me the shot I wanted....

That's funny right there.....grin!

Thx Pat,

My 22" .260 is running 2877 fps with 45/H4350 and #200's and R-P brass.

Fun lil rig, may well be turned into a Swift though this summer.

Dober

A look from the inside out...



A look at the dope for each rifle. Range cards are laminated and glued to the bottom of the AI magazine. Range is in meters, elevation adjustment is in mils.

I'm going to go on a limb here and say the field testing will result in dead critters. But maybe the .308 will make them deader. Just 'cause I like 308s!

Why do i sit behind a desk for a living again?

Cant wait to see the results pat. I could be happy with either of those rifles...

That is a lot of coyotes.

You didn't get the memo about blue tape?

I'm thinking it's more like the Yotes didn't get the memmo...grin

Dober

Rock 5R barrels are quick, plus 2" longer with a .260 is going to give at least 50-75fps more. You might try some Nosler/Norma brass, or Lapua.

I'd think that .8 more powder would kind of negate the extra 2". But then again, real world barrels can vary more than a bit.

Thx

Dober

You lost me there....

Where'd you get Badger M5's without the pogo stick...

Lapua .260 brass: 177.0 grains
Remington .260 brass: 165.0 grains

Might be the deal right there.....plus Lapua brass is stronger in the web area.

ehg, that is an after market mag release, made by RAD precision.

Ahhhh... Gotcha... I was wondering why Badger didn't send me a "Memo" on the new release...

I know you're a serious guy who can really shoot, so please tell me what you mean. An avg. of five, five shot groups, or ...?

Well, that's some pretty nice equipment there,

I think he means "Day in and day out"....

Very interested to watch this unfold. Having seen both rifles, and knowing Pat, this will be not only fun to watch, but extremely insightful.

We are really lucky to have folks that share like this here on the Campfire. Pat is a doer, not a talker, but when he talks (posts) it carries more weight (to me) than most, if not everyone, else.

Matt

I only shoot five shot groups. Not saying these, or any of my other GAP rifles have never shot .6 or .7, but they produce more groups in the .3's and .4's, than they do .6's or .7's. With the availability of precision rifle components, quality gunsmithing, reloading equipment and optics today, I don't consider it a "fluke" to average sub .5" at 100 meters, I expect it.

the green one is very sexy with the M5 ! like it...

Wish RAD still made those latches...

excited to see this test for sure !!

Pretty cool Pat.





Travis

I figured you meant something along those lines, thanks for making it plain. My factory rigs certainly won't match that, but I'm usually good for about .65 MOA out to 300 yards.

Tell us about the scopes please?

I'd like to see the outcome of this one too. My vote is for the .308, since I already have one. But the .260 looks good on paper.

Pat, Have you found any drawbacks to hunting with a straight 10x? I have thought about doing that, but with our sometimes close quarters in Alabama, could just never make the switch.

Thanks.
Bob.

Pat,
Thanks for taking the time for this! I am looking forward to the results as well...

Just out of curiousity, why did they stop making them?

Looks like a better design than the extended lever sticking out of the trigger guard...

Daggone it Pat,
You've got me looking at that Non typical .260 again...

My thoughts exactly, I look foward to this and any post he puts up. Very generous and much apreciated.

George told me they are in the process of getting another mold made.

I spend most of my time carrying my rifles right where that mag box is...
How do they carry with the mag box sticking down? I know they have nice slings

The balance point is right in front of the front guard screw. My hand does not touch the magazine. I carry my rifles in my hand quite a lot and it's not a concern.

Have the 130gr VLDs replaced the 139gr Scenar as your bullet of choice out of the 260? Or just for this rifle?

It'll be interesting to see the results of this test. But, if I was a betting man I know where I'd be laying my money...

I got a chance to do some shooting after a morning hunt today. The conditions were pretty good with very little mirage and a steady wind from 12 to 6 at about 8mph.




These were the first two five shot strings. Fired prone from a bipod and rear bag. The bullseye is 2.5". The shots were not timed and shot fairly quick, just as you would in a hunting situation. The .308 might have done a touch better here....






I moved back about 50 meters, changed the wind angle a bit and shot another five through both rifles...I held off .2 mils left/right for drift with both rifles. Advantage 130 VLD's here. Real world, a very dead big game animal all 20 shots.

There is slightly less recoil with the .260. Not that the .308 beats me up.

Thats all for today.....I'll keep shooting these two in the next few days.

Nice Pat.. how far out do you plan to test them ?

do the BC's of both bullets run pretty true to there claimed BC ?

I tweaked the BC to .490 on the 155 Scenars in mine and it runs great. The one we shot in Forsyth last August.

Could have also just lowered the velocity a hair and accomplished the same thing too.

The claimed .508 for the 155 was a little high as you said.....A G1 of 490-.495 has worked for me at 2950fps. A G1 of .552 has been spot on for the 130 VLD at 3000fps.

650-700 meters is plenty for these rifles. Probably as far as I would shoot at a big game animal under doable conditions.

I'm looking and waitng for some good, strong crosswind for my next session with them. I want to see what the real edge is with the 130 VLD is.

What are the shank lengths for these two from the face of the receiver? 1.75-1.80?

Thanks

Really awesome posts Pat. Super looking and functioning rigs, and I do believe those targets=dead critters and happy packing! grin

One question for you real quick, with the thinner pads, did you go with a longer LOP on the stock, or just leave it a bit shorter to have it be handier?

Thanks for the reports. They will help me with the 260 I am building. Using a LA Savage, SSS trigger, lug and a Pac-Nor barrel. Ordered some Lapua brass, Hornady 140 A-Max, Sierra 120 Match King, 130 Nosler AB and 130 Berger VLD bullets to play with.

I am looking forward to your next report.

Richard

I'm just a bettin but I'd go out on a limb and say that to 500 yds (easily as far as 99% of us have any business working in)they're both gonna be pretty much the same. If the wind gets to kicking then I'd give the edge to the 6.5. And once goes long 500-1K the 6.5 should prevail as well.

Penetration tests would be fun as well...grin

And 4 darn sure either rig is about as good as we're gonna get.

Dober

Awesome write up so far. Ive been working towards a 308 just like yours for a couple years now. You said youve killed over 800 coyotes with it, how long did that take?

1.70"

Those were taken with two different .308's, an M40A1 and a Surgeon Scalpel. I used those two rifles from 2005-2008. 98 were taken with 168SMK's with the M40A1, the rest were taken with 155gr scenars with the Surgeon. Since then I've been using my 6XC and GAP Crusader .260.

Pat,

Are you looking at building a 6mm Creedmore? Be interested to hear your thoughts on that platform for killing yotes and deer.

I have one now. It's built on a GAP10 semi-auto. It really shoots well. I've taken a few coyotes with it. Hornady is making brass with the correct headstamp for that cartridge now and is available through GA Precision.

It has a slight velocity edge over the 6XC....side by side they look almost identical. George designed it for use in comps where a lot of brass gets left on the ground. The Hornandy brass is less money than the Norma 6XC. I know a few guys who have built super accurate bolt rifles on it and love them.

Tanner, I keep the LOP the same on all of my rifles.

Thanks and sorry for the hijack!

thanks for the write up, i know im guilty of a pm or 2 about those 2 rifles

No worries!

I just shot them both at paper at 200 meters....I'll put up a pic in minute...

Not spectacular, but usable. Clean air, with winds gusting from rifle to target at 10 to 15mph. Hot here today, almost 90*F.

I'm thinkin' you might as well just box up the 308 a send it down this way...

Obviously it's not gonna cut it in a hunting situation...

I think I could slum a 308...

Very interesting thread!

It's obvious that you use top-notch components and equipment regarding rifles, optics, and ammo. What about your handloading equipment/methods? Anything special there regarding presses, dies, run-out, etc.?

Laffin' When you come up for bears next spring, stop by......I might even loan it to you.



It has killed a black bear or two......

Dats not a bruin that's a Toad!

What no 7/08...

Dober

Redding type "S" competition dies are what I use. Nothing else is very fancy.

That's what I'm thinking: Pat needs to split the difference. Then it'd be perfect!

Seriously, it's a fun thread. Nice rigs.

I thought Pat had done a GAP 7/08 a few years back but it might've been someone else.

Good to know. Thanks.

There's the 1/2 MOA or better you were talking about. Thanks for taking the time to do this Pat...rifle loonies gobble this kind of stuff up.

What's your .260 load, Pat?

Pat, you run 2000MR in the 308 yet?

It definitely gives a solid 50-75 fps over Varget and is close to Varget temp-sensitivity wise.

I've been stocking up on Varget for a while. Now I guess I better try 2000MR.

Several months ago I took your advice about RL17 in the 243 with the 80gr TTSX.......this after stocking up on H4350.....and RL17 was the winner.

Interesting results so far; based on the last picture you are running contrary to everyone�s opinion and numbers for grouping.
The 260 with the 130 bergers are far more slippery then the 308 155 scenars, yet your 200 group shows both vertical and horizontal dispersion to be smaller with the 308.

It seems to be that your comfort level with the 308 is trumping all the advantage the 260 is supposed to provide.

Good for you I am a big fan of 155 scenars and am rooting for the 308.

I think you may be drawing too much of a conclusion from the small data set you've seen.

Don't want to derail this fine thread, but curious as to data source on temp sensitivity of 2000MR? Been looking for info on that myself, and for a few other powders (AA2230, Leverevolution)

I would kindly disagree. I have based my opinion on the information presently available. A point in time comment. As it presently stands the 308 appears to be better then the 260.

Will that be the final conclusion when the test concluded most likely not. The 260 with its higher BC and faster speed will show that it will cut the wind and carry more velocity then the 308. The only question is when does the 260 over take the 308 in knock down power. 300-500 yards... sooner,later.

As to accuracy. I know from my own experience that the 308 is a more accurate round. everything else is up in the air and statistically favours the 260.

I'm gonna go out on limb and say the 260 will be first to the wire by a nose.

The 130 and 3000 fps will fair better in the conditions Montana tends to throw at a guy.

'course there seems to be some sentimental value of the Scenar. One slick pill and wakes up any .308

Both solid shooters, for me, I'd pick a 6.5 for drop/wind, etc. and feel it will match or better a 308 downrange.

Not much one would do that the other could not given these examples - good rifle/load-bullet, and shooter. The difference is small at 200 IMHO.

Nothing wrong w/the 308/155 but I like the 260/130 for less recoil and good trajectory/wind.

Mathman, agreed. It would take alot more data to draw any 'general conclusions' if we are talking 308 vs. 260.

What I can say is that over at snipershide dot com, an awful lot of 308 shooters have switched to 260 for a reason. That said, it has not and will not uproot the 308 for everyone or all applications.

The 308 is VERY rooted b/c it has such a history and there are so many scopes set up just for it.

Again, both will do a great job given the rifleman knows his rifle.

Good shooting Pat.

at 150 yards 300 yards and 500 yards... jus' sayin'..chuckle

I think the 260 wins due to slightly less recoil.


Pat, why not run a fast-twist 243?

I haven't yet, but it's on my short list....how was your ES with it?

I have one already....well, sort of. It's a 6XC that runs 115gr VLD's and Dtacs at 3000fps. Really a shooter.

Seems like the 2000MR would work with that 130 Berger too.

Funny that guys are already argueing/debating.

Sit back, relax and enjoy an informative presentation of real world data collected by a guy who presents facts, good or bad.

Thanks for doing this BTW,

Your western neighbor.

Pat, I've only loaded a few in each bullet weight and run them over the clock... I plan to accuracy test this summer.

PRM, a guy that posts over at snipershide.com worked on the 2000MR project... here's his data on temp sensitivity:

While I was out hunting this morning, I got to thinking about this thread and what kind of data and information I could add, besides shooting paper and steel and decided to put up some numbers on coyotes I've taken with both calibers. For many years I've kept very accurate records of the coyotes I've taken, rifle, load, day/date, distance, location, weather conditions, etc..I went through my journals and added up the distance per kill on 100 coyotes for each rifle.



This is my Surgeon .308. The load used in the comparison is the same as my light .308. The velocity is the same, 155 scenar at 2950fps.



This is my GAP Crusader .260. The load for this rifle is the 139 scenar at 2850fps. Both rifles are nearly identical....both sport S&B 5-25X56 PMII's, Mcmillan A5's, 26" MTU barrels, Jewell triggers set the same.

The farthest shot on 100 coyotes for the .308 was 866 meters. The closest was 31 meters. 16 shots were 400+ meters. The average shot was 274.28 meters.

For the .260 the farthest shot was 882 meters. The closest was 66 meters. 21 shots were 400+ meters. The average shot was 303.08 meters.

That's some pretty solid real world data there. I was a little surprised. Remember, coyotes aren't big game animals....I just thought this might be interesting to look at.

After I was finished comparing the .260 and .308's 100 coyotes, I did the same numbers with my Surgeon 6XC. It was 12 meters farther shot average than the .260.....but that could be another story in itself.....grin!

Oh baby, call me a sick man but I'm already for the white to come back...grin

Dober

Cool pics by the way, and probably literally..

Dober

Here's a question I would be curious to know.

It has nothing to do with ballistics or statistics

Which rifle is going with you to Wyoming next week?

And how did you go about making the decision?

Great write up Pat! I appreciate you taking the time to do this as there is always plenty of interest in these two.

My thought would be for a person unfamiliar with the weapon and perhaps drop, a 260 would be a fine choice. However for the person that wants to shoot a bunch a 308's barrel life should provide plenty of entertainment. Did I mention I have a rifle chambered in both?

6XC.....that rifle is like cheating......grin!

When the shoot is over I'm sending it back to Kansas City with George for a new barrel and suppressor.

I will have the Crusader .260 along if the XC breaks during the competition.

Right on! That heavy .308 of mine has 4000+ rounds through it and still shoots in the .2's and .3's.

Pat, what's your edjumicated guess on the useful life of a 260 barrel vs. 308? Or at least, what are others saying about the 260's life?

Pat: Have you noticed whether the Coyotes have a preference?

I was wondering which you'd take.

That gun with a can on it would be a perfect for what you do. And tax deductible too, I'd imagine!

Best of luck at the shoot.

When taking shots in the wind, do you feel more comfortable with one of your .260s? or do you have the same confidence with your .308s?

Is there a point while shooting in windy conditions that you'd shut your .308s down but still run your .260s? vice versa?

Thanks

3000 is the word..I'm at 2000 with that Crusader .260 and it's still shooting bugholes. Even my 6XC has 2700 through it and still going although the throat looks a bit haggered. From my experience barrel life can vary a bit from tube to tube. A lot depends on how you shoot them and how you load for them.

Out to 500 meters they are pretty close. I notice a slight change from there to 600 and past 600 in strong wind the .260 is easily the clear winner.

I'd say for hunting big game, they are pretty equal if you limit your shots to 500 or so and the wind isn't too severe. If you know how to call wind, the .308 will serve you fine. The 260 will allow a little margine for error.

Nice rifles & good info.

I'm more of a .308 guy, out of long habit. Good shooting Pat!

Bump up for an awesome thread....

In case anybody missed it, he's doing that shooting with "mere" 10x scopes.

And very interesting they are. The S&B website says they have Mil-Dot reticles and CM dials. Nice match. They are set to be parallax free at 300 meters. No AO or side focus parallax features with their design drawbacks.
I'm very impressed. Probably the only S&B I'd ever consider owning. E

Those are the Tula magnum primers correct? I have been playing with primers and been somewhat surprised at how one primer or another will tend to shoot measurably better in a particular load. Have been playing with 210Ms, BR2s and 215Ms. May have to try some of these, just want to confirm which ones you have been using.

PRM,

Pretty sure he's using Wolf/Tula Magnum primers.

Well how's this coming along, Pat? I think I'm gonna sell my Nontypical 300wsm and pick up something a little smaller. Lead me to water my friend. 260 or 308??

+1

Do you find the Templar action upgrade worth the additional cost? If so why? From the outside looking in it appears the 700 is on the heels of the Templar.

Also, what makes the Badger M5 assembly, in your opinion, better than a ADL/BDL setup? What advantages does it provide you over the latter two?

Thanks

I love the Templar on mine. Extremely smooth and reliable. M16 extractor. One piece bolt. Side bolt release. Hands down my favorite action.

This is just me and obviously I aint Pat but I see it as if most of your work is to 500 take your pick. If you're gonna work quite a bit @ 500 on out then I'd most certainly go 260.

Dober

I'm really leaning that way. Never gunned a 260 nor any other 6.5 for that matter. Have had a ton of 308s, currently have four. So.... might be time for a change.

That's the spirit...

Dober

The Defiance is a much better action in all reguards,even though a 700 is a good platform to build on, the 1 pc bolt adds peace of mind when in the field and is ready to build on from the beginning!

Thanks for the replies Cinch and Ackleyfan.

This thread has about pushed me over the edge for a Non-Typical or a faux version.

I love the Templar action on my GAP also. Major improvement over a tuned Rem. IMO.

I have no experience with the Templar action nor do I know it's costs.
A Remington 700 action can have it's bolt handle secured with hex head screws.
The extractor can be changed to any kind of hook style, but long expereince has shown that the stock Remington extractor is so strong it can rip the head off of a stuck case. Those that fail, are either broken, or improperly installed.
They, the remington actions, have, with few modifications, been used in combat by both the US Marines and the US Army for alot of years now. They wouldn't keep'em if they didn't work. E

Guys, I've been busy with coyote calls, coaching my little guys allstar team and it's been flat out nasty hot.....I promise to finish up this comparison when time allows...

Awesome that the guys made the AllStar Squad. Some of my best memories!

Good to have priorities. We'll wait. Have a happy 4th!

I have no issues with the factory extractor and actually prefer them, they work exceptionally good, but most of the time are not available in the customs, but dimensionally they are far ahead of a 700, the 1 pc bolt handle is nicer than using screws to attach a handle, the top end customs have better bolt timing and extraction surfaces, 8-40 base screws, a pinned recoil lug mostly bells and whistles but you also get consistantcy in my experience, so you pay more and get more!

Glen makes one hell of an action. From looking at the pics of the Templar action, it makes you wonder if that's not whose building them?

I'm having a hard time deciding which length action I want from Glen... It's either a 338 WM or 338 Lapua next custom.

The Templar is basically the same exact action as a Defiance Rebel and both are made by Glen and his crew at Defiance!

Pat, thanks for your time with this thread.

Bump for a great thread and hoping for an update from scenar shooter

IIRC PT&G makes 1-pc bolts for Rems, BUT, having had Rems blueprinted (and one had a bolt handle fail - as in fall off), and also having customs like Stiller and Borden, I personally feel a custom action is a great investment in top tier quality.

Not that many off the shelf actions are not entirely fuctional and reliable, but it's just a sense of satisfaction knowing you have the best.

Those GAPs have a good reputation and many satisfied users no doubt.

+1

Very well put....

"Wolfie", ready for another workout. The wind was out of the southeast at 10mph, with a temp of 66*F. Good conditions to test these rifles.




I shot the .308 first. I wanted 10 shots from each rifle. I held off exactly one MIL for drift. 1.2 would have been better. I finished the group even though I saw it was somewhat right.




Next up was the .260. I held one MIL for drift as well and that was perfect. Kind of expected with a bullet of higher velocity and BC....

I finished with one attempt at a head shot with each rifle, and one shot behind the shoulder from the same distance, after re-painting Wolfie.


[img]http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/riflestest015.jpg[/img]

Throat shot with the .308 and the .260 shot clean on both hits.....they both hit perfect on the lung shot.

One thing that was evident, was the deeper impressions with the .260 left on the 3/8 mild steel. They were dug in quite a bit farther.

[img]http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/riflestest016.jpg[/img]

Both rifles leave a pretty good mark at 623 yards...

I shot both rifles rapid fire, without letting them cool. I never really saw any real POI changes while I was shooting because of it. My opinion is, a good barrel that is bedded right will shoot well, hot or cold.

Both rifles zero range is 180 meters(elevation turret zero). The .260 had in 2.9 MILS elevation, the .308 had 3.4. Drift was .2 MILS less with 130gr VLD than the 155gr scenar(at 570M).

Wolfie got his butt whooped!

Very true!

But I would have doubted that statement prior to shooting some of your rifles.

Until then I'd never shot a rifle that barrel heat didn't affect somewhat.

Glad to see this thread resurrected!

Nice guns, good shooting.

when i saw that head shot with the .260 on wolfie, i had to laugh--of course you heard the ring of steel come back;

but you are the only other person i know that could describe with an accurate phrase what that sound is like on a real predator when a headshot occurs:

"the sound of a wooden bat hitting a hardball..."

great shooting Pat!

as i promised, i'll call you back soon--got company here through the 15th, so its been hard to get some free time to just visit.

Love the "Wolfie" report. I have been shooting my .308s more, while my .260 has been sitting in the safe. I guess I need to dust it off again.

Bump for a great thread!! Very informative and helpful.

Thanks Pat


ddj

Pat: Are both barrels free-floated?

Scenar, you mentioned the .308 is 6oz lighter. Do you know what the weight of your rifles are with the S&B?

If you're going to spring for a high-end rifle such as a GAP, get a custom action. Defiance/surgeon/nesika etc just feel 'high-quality' MUCH more than a trued 700. If you're looking for a measurable advantage, working the bolt on a custom action often will not bring your rifle off-target near as much as a trued 700. One of the reasons they're so popular in the benchrest crowd.

Slg,

This is a GAP 308 with a Schmidt.

If I remember correctly, Pat's ran about 3 oz lighter than mine due to a slightly smaller barrel contour. Pretty insignificant difference IMO. Roughly the weight of a cartridge or two.

We weighed/compared them during the Spring shoot.

The 6 oz difference is between the 260/308 is due to the larger hole in the barrel(308) weghing less than the smaller hole barrel with the same exterior contour.

The difference between a 260 and 308 barrel, contour and length being equal is 2 ounces, not 6.

It appears that Oldslowdog is running the M4 bottom metal and Pat is running the M5 which may account for a weight difference.

Any updates?

Bump for a great thread

Similar post on the Long Range Form. Try the "Finally" post. E

Too much greatness for burial. Bump for 2014.

Good stuff, tag for info.

These sorts of threads are what I enjoy so much about this place. Thanks for the efforts by all. Great info. Awesome sticks too.

tag

Bump for a great thread

Yes, a very good read.

So, after some additional time, any conclusions? For elk at 0-500 yds, go with the .308 155 Scenar or 260 130 VLD?

Pat - knowing what you know now, would you still pick the 260 over the 6.5 creed?

Great thread. I was sitting around just the other day, thinking about a new deer rifle that would fall in between a .243 and a .308.

Something shooting about 130 gr bullets.

The .260 might just be the ticket.

BH63

This has been one of the better threads at the fire.

It is understandable that the 4s is getting all the attention these days, but both the .308 with 155 Scenars, and the .260 with a 130 Berger are still quite capable performers at typical Western ranges!

Great real world test. Everyone knows the .308 sucks, I will dispose of it if you send it to me. I love the .308 and have just started playing with the .260. Great stuff!

Tag for easy reference

*

.

Back up

Very true.

Great to see a real world comparison instead of just bc, wind drift and drop numbers on paper.

I agree. I don't get the chance to test nearly as much real world as I would like right now. This is perfect to put it all into perspective for us weekend warriors.

Basically, the small gains don't make a difference until 500 yards.

and the 308 load is now my favorite load in my Tikka T3 SL.

Bump. just for something to talk about over the campfire....

Tag

Damn, five and a half years.....where does all the time go?

The green .308 has been re barreled to a six creed....the .260 remains the same.

Maybe it's time to do a 6 Creed/.260 Pepsi challenge...

Lots of projects in the making.

so... the 260 won!

The black .260 is set up with 130 JLK's, and has been for the past couple years. A little better G1, and just as accurate. Seems to be the same results on big game as the Berger Hunting VLD....so far.

6.5 bullets have evolved quite a bit in the past few years. With a 1-9" I haven't been tempted to try anything heavier than 130gr class bullets through it. Although it might spin 135 JLK's fine, I just haven't had time to try them in that rifle yet.

No flies on my .308's. I still have, and shoot several rifles in the configuration. Day in, day out, it's hard to beat the durability and longevity of a .308. My old Surgeon Scalpel has over 8,000 rounds of 155's through it, and still easily shoots .5 moa.

Man, that’s a lot of rounds through the 308!

I have a couple 308s and shoot your load for the 155 secnar, and it’s accurate in every gun I fire it in.

Good to see it isn’t hard on barrels.

A belated thanks to scenarshooter for all the good info, & to all that bumped this thread & kept it alive so I got to read it. I have 2 long range 260's & one .308, so I was soaking it all in. Good read!

Pat,
Your load for the 308 is 46.5 gr's Varget?

I started reading before worship service this morning but ran out of time. So, I tagged it.

Thanks for the bump. Great reading. TV off. Trans Siberian Orchestra Christmas music playing. Cup of hot tea. Nice!

It sure doesn't seem that long. I still remember ordering my first 308 after shooting that green rifle. Time flies indeed.



If you get a chance, I'd be curious to hear your thoughts about the 6.5 PRC vs the 6.5 SAUM.....

It's 45.5 grains Varget.

McKay Sagebrush's is 46.5

And I shoot 48.5.

Manly men doing manly things and all that.

I don't think 48.5 would fit in Lapua brass...

Awesome thread!!

I’m sad that it took me so long to stumble onto!

The Creed vs the 260 would be a great read!

Here you go. It is about ten years old, so bullet options have changed a bit, but still a good comparison.


http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor/

Scenar: At what distances in your experience.. or should I say velocities does the 108-123-139 grain 6.5 Scenars stop expanding?

Bump because we can see the pictures again
Great read Pat, thanks for taking the time.

Bump before 2019 is over.

Still a great thread, with 2 gun blueprints that should probably be copied more often.

Thanks for the bump.
Yeah, this is a blessing to read.

Despite my screen name, I think I know what I’m going to save my pennies for. Great info thank you!

A good read