So I've been on the lookout for either a 7wsm or 7 rem mag in either a Kimber Montana or Winchester Extreme Weather to use for deer in my new stand that overlooks a huge bean field and for when we go out for muley's in Colorado next year. I realize a lightweight rifle like a Montana isnt ideal for a bean field rifle but it'll also be lugged around and walked with a lot out in Colorado so i do want a lightweight gun, plus i am used to light rifles and shoot my other Montana's and EW just fine. I recently read a little about the 280 and im starting to get the bug! I also seen that Kimber had that new, suoer light Mountain Ascent that's chambered in 280 AI so i really think im going to start trying to get one. I know there aren't many, if any out there for sale so if i don't find one soon I'll probably have the LGS order one from Kimber. They're so far behind right now though when i was trying to find a Montana in 338 fed i looked for over 4 month's and finally had LGS call Kimber and they said 8-12 month's! Luckily a NIB one popped up on GB and i got it.
Anyway, what do you guys that have 280's think about them? Would you prefer one over a 7 mag? How's the recoil, what other cartridge would you compare it to? And lastly, i could use normal 280 ammo in the mountain ascent and it would "fireform" the brass so it could then be loaded as a 280 AI?

Thank you,
Cory

A hot 280ai is a mild 7mag either one there's not a critter alive that will take one thru the lungs without getting pretty sick.

Yes you can shoot factory 280 to collect your fire formed brass.
If I don't go 338-06 with my CLR build I'll be going 280AI and you can give it a run when it gets back.

I recently built a .280AI and couldn't be happier.

The way I see it is cheap donor brass, approaches 7 mag energies and velocities (isn't quite a 7 mag and never will be), recoil is reasonable, non belted brass equals one extra poke in the magazine.

Mine shoots 140's at 3300 fps and 162's over 3k via book loads which is all I can ask for.

Yep fireform .280 Rem for brass and never look back.

Here's mine just after it was built. The 20 MOA rail has since been replaced by a set of Talley one piece mounts.

I had built a 280 AI a few years ago. and before that a 338-06 AI and the only thing that would be better than those 2 rifles would be a switch barrel set up. First thing, DO NOT buy a bunch of brass for the AI as the stuff just does not wear out. I own 4 prairie dog guns ... 2 223s and 2 22-250s. They will not out shoot my 280 AI and that is with 160 gr Accubonds. I never figured I would find a better shooting bullet that the 160 till I tried the 162 Vmax. The Accubonds shoot 3/8th " 3 shot groups all the time and unless I flinch all you get is an out of round hole with the Vmax. Recoil is not a problem at all, the gun is easy to shoot even off the bench. If I were to build another gun tomorrow it would be another 280 AI. Knowing that I complain about everything.... that is saying something.

A couple years ago I built one on a pre 64 M70 action, fwt barrel and mcm edge stock. it shoots and handles great. I put up some nosler 280 AI brass and load it with 150 TTSX's @ 3050. It's been a great flat shooting round that hasn't needed the brass trimmed yet.Just like most calibers it's killed well.... My rifle weighs about 7 3/4 scoped which I feel is just right. I'd think twice about a flyweight though....
I have no regreats putting mine together.

Love mine...

150's at over 3k..what is not to like.

Tony

Did you win the lotto or something....buying up alot of nice rifles and I like your style!

Here's mine. "Needed" a 7mm of some sort and I too caught the 280 AI bug. I really dig the Kimbers and have eyed a few 84Ls with knockout wood, but I like the feel and weight of this bugger. My Kimbers hold the edge in the feel,fit/balance department over my others....but still can't make myself part with this one. Loves 140gr TSXs, 160 ABs, and 160gr Partitions..that'll bout cover anything for its intended purpose I reckon.

Im taking mine on an oryx hunt tomorrow. Mine shoots 140 ttsx's into itty bitty groups and has 2 elk under it's belt so far.
You will like it. No super caliber, not quite a 7mag, a little bigger than a standard 280. And in good bc. 284 bullets, that don't bounce off animals like a. 270.

Good luck Mark! Your phone will be jingling a lil later...haven't forgot about it!

Before too long, impressionable young minds will believe this stuff...

The 280AI is another good way to start 130-140 gr bullets at 3100-3200 fps.With 150 gr bullets it's about 100 fps faster than a 270 Winchester with the same bullet weights.

For the heavy bullets of 160 gr and up,the 7 Rem mag is a slightly better mousetrap.

In other words, it's a good cartridge and suited for the same animals as a 270,280,7x57,7/08,7mm WSM, and 7 mag,and will kill lots of stuff.

To my mind this is a case of the rifle making the caliber....the Kimber 84L or Montana (like the 7mmWSM in the Montana)is a unique piece of gear among factory offerings, chambered in 280AI. Lightweight,near 7 mag performance, handsome and with great ergos,and M70-like in function.

If building on available actions,I'd rather have the additional case capacity of the 7 Rem mag over the 280AI.There will be no difference in action length,rifle weight,or barrel length,and the greater capacity of the 7 RM makes it more versatile with heavy bullets.

An argument can be made that the 7mm mag. is the more versatile round of the two. Hell just the fact that there can be an argument show's just how good the 280 AI can be. I have found the 280 AI to be as loader friendly as the .308. its just fun to load for.

Bob, the problem with the 7rem mag. is that, it's like our beloved .270 it is boringly good! And that is no fun. I'll keep playing with my AI as I am certain you will do with your Mashburn.

Randy

rta if my blood were up for one of those 84L's, I'd buy it in 280AI.....

I get where you're coming from...

I built a 280AI a couple of years ago and it was damn accurate. Shot 140 TTSX into little bitty holes. But new brass was expensive and fire forming brass was just one more thing to do. I got just over 3200 fps but always felt like I was pushing the envelope to get those speeds.

In the end I dumped the rifle and am back to my favorite .270. If I wanted to do a 280AI again I would go the 7mag route. However, your experience might be different and sometimes you just got to scratch the itch.

Andy

Not yet but if i dont soon I'm going to have to start going with a different style! Maybe a Remington 770 addiction. Ive actually just about finished off selling all my wood stocked rifles (mostly M70's and one Kimber ) in favor of the nice synthetics. I feel like ill get more use out of em than those purdy wood ones that sat in the safe because i didn't want to scratch em!

I'm hoping to have one in hands next week, had to sell a loved one to fund it but I've been wanting a .280 for close to 20 years.



After I win the lotto tonight, I'll have the funds to really put it to use this coming year

I am going deer hunting in some pretty big fields after I finish this coffee. I want a magnum for the longer shots ready. The magnum I have been bringing of late has been the Kimber Montana 7mm WSM however my Kimber 270 WSM will do about the same thing.

The Kimber weighs 7# 6oz with it's 3-9 Conquest which is less than what a M70 Featherweight goes! Also it's balance is more forward what with it's longer barrel.

I just handled those Kimbers and have one here beside me. I also just handled the old M70 that I used to use a lot. The Kimber action is really nice in those 8400's and their safety superior to the Win.

My suggestion is to search for a Kimber in 7mm WSM and if you don't find one by next summer to get one in 270 WSM.

I don't have any want for a 270 either but the calibers really overlap and that Kimber is really fine.

Pretty rifle there josh.
Here's mine.

If I wanted a .280 Ackley Improved rifle, great cartridge by the way, I'd hop over to Nosler's web site and look at the Trophy Grade Rifle they offer. Nosler has adopted the .280 AI as a factory offering, selling ammo and cases.

But then I seldom buy anything factory made anymore, so I'd probably build up one on a new bare Remington 700 Stainless Steel Long Action from Brownells. Send it off for a bit of modification such as double pinned .250" bedding block recoil lug, bolt sleeving, locking lug fitting and firing pin bushing. Stuff a Jewel trigger in it, then I'd send it off to Pac-Nor Barreling for a Stainless Steel Super-Match barrel in .280 Ackley. Mate it to a Bell and Carlson Medalist stock and go shooting. Cost = about $1,700 without scope or mounts.

Kimber? Not me, from what I've seen at the range too many problems, but then maybe current production is better.

This is just me, so take it for what it's worth.

I've been around a Mtn Ascent, it's not for me as it's just too darn light. As well I'm not a fan of brakes on a gun.

If I got an 84L as seductive as the 280 AI is I'd more than likely go with one of the standard rounds. For me the 06 and or 270 or 25/06 would do me quite well. And for me I'd prefer a skosh more barrel weight on these rigs as well. Give me another 5 oz or so and a tube that goes .6" at the mzl at 23" and I'd be a happy camper. That's just part of the reason that the Forbes rifles intrigue me and I think think they're gonna balance the way I like (weight forward) as well I feel that they're gonna shoot balls out!!

One challenge I've seen with the 280 AI rounds over the last decade or so is that most guys buy them with the paradigm that it's an equivalent to a 7 RM. Now by my way thinking it isn't that and shouldn't be pushed to those lengths. But pretty much day in and day out I see the 280AI leaned on just so someone can say yepper by gosh I knew it was a 7 RM...

Best of luck to you in your decision. Personally, for me there's better ways to go and to tell you the truth there was a day from moons ago when I wouldn't of thought that way.

Dober

Seems to me that if we were all so concerned about muzzle velocity we would all be running 7mm RUM's. But we're not so take a look at the ballistics if it looks like something you like then get one. If it don't work out for you put it up on the campfire here and someone will gladly take it off your hands.

JMHO

Taint no 7 mag that's for sure.
I personally hate trimming brass, and it sure is a sexy looking cartridge.

Fantastic way of putting it, as long as it feeds every bit as good as standard rounds then I get it. What I dislike seeing is those trying to push it into a pasture it maybe shouldn't be pushed into. And for what........another 100 fps or so whoopy...

Dober

You know I think the need for speed thing has been around for a while and you can see it being done with most any caliber. If we start being pragmatic around here and using good ole sound logic and common sense then we aren't going to have much to talk about!

Randy

I'm far from any expert, but from every article I've ever read the .280 AI is supposed to be one of the most benificial from being Improved. Close to 200fps gain, improved brass life, and it's damn sexy...


Decent article:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/2011/03/17/longgun_reviews_the_280_ackley_031511/

Cal after you win the Lotto, you can buy me one, too!

NO expertise here for certain! When I bought my 280 AI is was simply because I wanted something different than normal. I had spent all my adult life hunting with either a .270 or .308 and both did a damn fine job, but I wanted something else.

I sure as hell wasn't about to go the full custom route, so I went with a Cooper despite not being fond of their actions. Boy am I glad I did. The damn thing is incredible. Here is exactly what I know, factory 280 ammo (140 FP) runs about 2850 in my gun. 140 Berger or Nosler Accubonds with 58.5 IMR 4831 lope along at 3050 and shoot one bug hole.

150 Nosler BT with 58.0 of the same 4831 also runs along about 3060 with a Fed 215 primer and OMG does it shoot! And the Nosler 160 AB with 56.0 of the 4831 is just shy of 3000.

I have no idea how much faster they could go and I have no intention of finding out. The damn thing shoots remarkable too me and ultimately that's all that really matters.

Funny thing about all of this, I have killed 6 critters with the 280 AI and upon inspection their death closely resembles that of the many more critters I have killed with the .270 or .308.

Randy

cal74-I wasnt't overly clear about what I said. I meant to say that if you push the AI it may well get within 100 fps of the 7 RM. I wasn't meaning to comment about how much one gets over a regular 280. Make sense?

And from what I've seen the AI users are running them awfully darn hard to get within 100 fps, I expect with time people will back off a bit and begin to see 100-125 or so over the regular 280 especially if they're to get any sort of case life at all. Most of the 280AI users I've been around are probably seeing the primer pockets get loose after one or two firing and most likely can't keep a primer in the pocket around 5 or so reloads. And that to me is what I'd not be comfy with.

Just my way.

Dober

On a side note....

If one can run a 160 out of a 280Ai and one can run a 150 out of a .270 at 2900 what's the real world diff...? And yeah I realize this can go on adnausem...

gack gack gack


Dober

.280 AI.... is a fancy way of saying: "Not quite a 7 Remmie...."

Its still just a bastard child. 270.
What's the bc/sd diff between them?
A 270 just isn't sexy either.

If I win tonight, I'll buy one for everyone that's contributed to this topic Hell, I'll even take everyone on hunt

I got an easy 3050 with the 162 Amax out of my 26" .280AI.

Never wore out a case either.

If you stick to book max loads the .280AI is every bit as fast as a 7RM.

It is my favorite rifle. I shoot 140gr ttsx at 3300 fps and they shoot into the .2's and .3's which is awesome. Oh, it is a Kimber 84L as well. It will be the last to leave my hands. I know it's not a 7 mag but I don't care for the extra recoil. That's why I sent the 300 WBY down the road.

Great round, but just too much for the killing I do. If my .260 and 6.5 Swede will kill Elk at 400 and 500 yards, I don't see a need to shoot much further than that, I would rather get closer. My 2cents.

Yeah if you (a) put a 26" barrel on the AI;and (b) dumb down the 7 Rem mag to lower pressures and use a 24"..

C'mon Ken....

I have 40 Federal cases that started life as a plain jane old 280. 28 of those 40 are on their 6th trip around. The other 12, 5x's.

No trimming to date, no loose pockets - lucky I guess

Randy

Good Q Splatt so I looked em up, using apples to apples. Nozler Part for both.

270/150 has a BC of .465 and a SD of.279

7/160 has a BC of .475 and a SD of .283

Sexy is a big critter on the turf like a oryx that your're about to bounce...grin

Dober

I didn't dumb down the 7RM to lower pressure, SAAMI did.

I didn't maximize the efficiency of the .280AI, SAAMI did.

SAAMI matters to the people who print loading manuals. It matters so much to them that they simply will not list loads which exceed the SAAMI MAP.

Im hoping so!
Maybe, just maybe, one is tough enough to hold a 140 ttsx.
If all goes well. Will i be the first to kill an oryx with a 280ai?

When do you go, and sorry for the temp jack of the thread

Dober

We leave in the morning. Drive down and do the legal stuff Friday at 10am and then maybe hunt.

Have a great and safe hunt!

Dober

Thanks. Wife, dog, and me.
Been packing and going over gear all day. Soon as the wife gets home, Im going to load up the hummer. Hope it all fits!

Good Luck on that hunt, take LOTS of pics and don't forget the blue tape. Remember that adds a couple hundred feet per second as well

Nope. Maybe the first with a 140 TSX out of a 280Ai though. We proved that an orxy can't hold a 280AI 162 A-max even when launched from nearly 700 yards a couple months ago.

Damn. Was hoping so.
Oh well. .....
Got just about everything inside with leaving room for trap to lay down.
Extra spare tire and rubbermaid container with 2, 5 gallon gas can are up on the safari rack.
Sorry for the hi jack, but get a 280ai. I have confidence mine will do in an oryx.

You going on range or private land? Since the off base tags are basically over the counter and so many ranchers are amenable to being paid trespass fees, I am going to go every year from here on out. I love oryx, best wild game I have ever eaten.

I drew a once in a lifetime on range tag for rhodes canyon.
Guess we'll see about next year?
What do they charge for the trespass fee?

Keep dreaming....everyone but you knows the 7 Rem Mag is faster across the board.Nosler knows it;uses a 26" tube for a 280AI and a 24 for the 7 Mag.

If the 280AI is as fast,and SAAMI pressures are so low,why does Nosler still show slower speeds with everything in the 280AI than the 7 Rem Mag, up to and including the 175 gr bullet? That's from a barrel 2" longer for the 280AI?

I've had enough 7 Rem Mags to know it does exactly what the Nosler manual says it does....do you think Nosler is loading to pressures over SAMMI maximums?Like....Nosler all of a sudden doesn't know what it's doing?Laffing at that one....

More Kool Aid by the 280AI boys.

Like Dober says, you guys stomp on it to make it do what it does.I haven't believed the hype surrounding that cartridge since it became what passes for "popular"(this is the only place the thing gets even a mention).

I find a lotta dreamers love it.

It's still choking on the 270's dust LOL!

Every time I consider getting one, I laugh to myself and remember these threads...think I'll pass and save the money..it's barely any better than a handloaded 280 Remington.

Splattermattic if the 270 is the "odd duck" caliber, how come it was the first true 7mm, and was popular here in the states way before any .284 cartridge became popular? And still buries all the competition, by far....if you addede th total sales of riles and ammo up for all the 7mm's here in North America, they still wouldn't come close to the 270...as for the 270 being chump change when it come to killing game...you guys are dreamers....learn to shoot.LOL!

A 270 is just fine. It is not a cartridge I've ever owned nor want to.
Something about it just doesn't appeal to me.
I like many other cartridges, and have been around lots of 270's and seen them kill just fine.
Just not my calling.

I just got back from an elk hunt in Montana with my Montana .280 AI. Didn't get it bloody, but man....I'll never take another rifle to the mountains. What a joy to carry that thing, and I don't mean slung over my shoulder -- it never left my hand.

I've been an unapologetic .280 fan ever since I killed my first dear over 30 years ago with my grandfather's .280 Rem. It's a cartridge that's got style -- which is to say that not everyone has one, and I like that. The .280 AI, from my point of view, is a marked improvement over an already superb round.

I don't try to make mine into a 7RM, but I do get the 150 TTSX moving at 3,060 with no problem whatsoever. That's exactly 200 fps faster than Federal can do with the 150 Partition in my .280 Rem. If I can ever get the 150 Partition to move out at 3,000 fps in my AI, and keep the accuracy that I now get with the Barnes, I'll be done playing.

I'm in the same boat as far as the .270 goes, my step-dad has killed a few dozen elk with his. I've seen him probably take 30-40 different deer/antelope with it as well.

Just doesn't do anything for me and truth be told I could care less if the .280ai isn't a 7mm Rem Mag. I've got one of those, if I want one.

For 99% of my hunting my 7mm-08 will do just fine, I've just always wanted a .280 for some reason and now I'll have a .280ai

More Kool Aid by the 280AI boys.

Like Dober says, you guys stomp on it to make it do what it does.

Uhhhm.....so loading a 280 AI to saami map is stomping on it??????? But loading a 7 mag over saami map isn't? ?????

Hmmm!!!!!

Shod

Excellent point Shod.

Not to mention that the moment folks go past published 7RM loads they venture into unknown pressures.

Baloney to you and Shod...are the Nosler manual loads "over max"?LOL!

It's still faster,even with a shorter barrel and lower SAMMI max.....You guys are a riot...

No one's answering....what about the Nosler Manual data for both cartridges? How do you explain that away in light of SAAMMI max?

Doesn't count?

Too funny.

I have a .280 (built by Redneck) on a stainless M700 action in a McMilian Mt. Rifle stock. The recoil is like an '06 or a .270. Moderate I'd say, no biggie even if you're a bit recoil shy. It's easy to buy ammo for, and is very accurate.

The 7mm Mag doesn't turn my crank all that much, though i'm not sure why.

Hodgdon doesn't list a single 160 class load which reaches 3000.

or...my wiener's bigger but I don't need to tell everyone about it.

I've not run a .280 Ackley much (would do so in a heartbeat), but I can't see observing too much of a difference betwixt a great 7mm 160gr bullet traveling 2950 (from the .280 Ack, which I believe to be a very plausible figure with a 24" tube), and the same bullet moving 3050+ (from a 7RM, which I shoot with an uncompressed charge of Retumbo). Both are going to absolutely smack critters and be dirty bastiges in the wind (I'm thinking 162 A-Max here).

Both are sweet azzed carts, but I'm particularly loving my 7Rem Mag. Out of the sub 9lb rifle I'm shooting it in right now, recoil prone out of the dirt is absolutely a non-issue. But I ain't a big old wuss, either... grin

Tanner, I can tell you from experience that a 160 NAB from a 24" tubed AI leaves critters absolutely speechless

Randy

That's about what I figured... grin

280AI's suck. Just get a 270 and be done......

This is about all a 280AI will get ya.....





Grin

Sweet buck dude... You oughta' get a 25/06, that's how all the big bucks die. grin...

6.5-284 is better





Just ask Lil man

Been there done that. Like to explore all options......lol

I been killing critters for 44 years now and never used any blue tape How the heck did I manage? Lucky, I guess!

Randy

Tanner you think my 6.5 is doing well because it was a 25/06 first? Maybe the 6.5 is just benifiting of the 25 mojo? Lol

Notice is made a switch to yellow and have bagged more game...lol

I though all "BIG BUCKS" were killed with model 7s??? Im lost again ...GFY

SOON as I think I got it all fiqured out, I come on here and yall screw ti pu four mi

More in line of what a .270 is capable of, deer probably laughed himself to death.

Lol

Keep reading.........the cartridge has been giving standard ballistics like those shown by Nosler since 1962.Suddenly the Internet shows up with a bunch of ex-purts with Quick Load,who have likely never owned nor loaded for one,and the 7 mag is relegated to the bone pile.Nothing but entertainment on here.

You really ought to try buying a 7RM and loading for it....7-8 of them would be better to gain some perspective,instead of guessing.

Sam Fadala went through this same crap with the 25/06 Improved before he smartened up and just bought a 257 Weatherby.Guess he got tired of fire walling improved wildcats...experience is a funny thing.

I'm not a ballistics guru by any means. But I do know what my 280 AI - 24" tube - IMR 4831 and 160 NAB will do. And it sure as hell stands to reason that a 7mm Rem Mag will trump it somewhat.

Randy

For me personally, I don't give a chit if doesn't even come close to a 7mm Mag. I've got one of those, if you go back and read what I wrote earlier my 7mm-08 in reality will do 99% of what I need it to do.

Do 95% of us really need anything more than a 12g, .223 and a 30-06? NO we don't, but this is still a free enough country that we can use whatever we please and sadly there's still a few that will choose a .270

Don't be disingenuous Bob. You and I both know that SAAMI has reduced the MAP of the 7RM at least once and probably twice since it's intro.
It now has the distinction of having the lowest MAP of any magnum rifle cartridge.
I have owned, used and loaded the 7RM so your assertion that I try one has been done.

A .25-06 to .257 Roy comparison is also disingenuous as they are both 65k cartridges.
When you're operating at the same pressure case capacity wins every time.
When one cartridge has a 4k advantage things even up a bit.

Please....stop....you're insulting my intelligence.You can pitch this line of bullshidt somewhere else and expect someone else to believe it. I don't have all the answers but I been doing this stuff too long.

There may be some dumb enough to buy this mumbo jumbo but I promise you I ain't one of them...

You guys are stomping the hell out of the cartridge to make it look good and claim it delivers like a 7 mag....the evidence is everywhere. I don't care how many times you read QL, there is no way any of you know what pressures you're generating to get those velocities.

You have one guy on another thread stating, very matter-of-factly, that he runs a 140 from the 280AI at the same velocities as a 7mmDakota or STW,and everything is peachy......another who says he won't run his pet load at over 60F degrees.... (what do you guys do, carry thermometers around on a warm October day to be sure you can shoot a Wyoming buck?)LOL!


Then you run around spouting black magic about the 7 Rem mag and SAAMI specs and expect me to believe that I'll disappear in a blinding flash if my handloads (heaven forbid!)exceed 60,000psi? In the meantime you don't have a [bleep] clue what kind of pressures you are actually running n your rifles to get those speeds.....or one logical reason why a 7RM can't be run at the same levels to go faster...C'mon.

Not that it needs to be run harder as the Nosler Manual suggests(and if your contention about SAAMI pressures is correct)...you still offer no explanation for the existence of that data....can only be one thing, right? You are correct and the Nosler lab is wrong? I suppose you want me to believe that,too?Funny stuff.

I wonder who's really being disengenuous?....Pitch this Internet bullshidt somewhere else.There's impressionable kids on here....they might swallow that BS.

Darn well said Bob

Dober

I'm using pressure tested, published loads and not exceeding the maximum charge to get the speeds I do.
You want me to post the data from Accurate Powders again?
You know very well they show precisely the results I obtained.

You're the one putting impressionable people in jeopardy not me.

You've declared it perfectly acceptable to exceed max published loads for the 7RM if "you've been doing it a long time."
Still, as you said, you don't know what pressures you're running either. At least I stop when I hit the max load. That's a whole lot better guarantor of being within safe pressure limits than blowing right by max loads and going by "pressure signs".
And as Shod said a while back, loading the .280AI to max charge up to it's SAAMI MAP (65K) is deemed to be stomping on it by you but exceeding max loads, and hence the SAAMI MAP (61K) of the 7RM is just fine.

Finally, unlike you Bob, I've owned and loaded for both these cartridges.
What was that about experience?

Ken,
It will take some compression (see LD�s %) to make work towards the lighter end of the bullet weight range.
I suggest the following.
Caliber: .280 Remington Ackley Improved.
Barrel length: 24�
Powder: Accurate - MAGPRO�
Bullet weight: 120 grains
Start load: 62.1 grains (2875- 2975 Fps)
Maximum load: 69.0grains (3200 � 3300 Fps). LD ca 111%
Bullet weight: 140 grains
Start load: 61.0 grains (2800- 2900 Fps)
Maximum load: 67.0grains (3100 � 3200 Fps). LD ca 109%
Bullet weight: 150 grains
Start load: 60.0grains (2700- 2800 Fps)
Maximum load: 66.0grains (2975 � 3075 Fps). LD ca 108%
Bullet weight: 160 grains
Start load: 59.0grains (2600- 2700 Fps)
Maximum load: 65.0grains (2900 � 3000 Fps). LD ca 107%
Bullet weight: 168 grains
Start load: 57.8grains (2500- 2600 Fps)
Maximum load: 64.2grains (2850 � 2950 Fps) LD ca 105%.
NOTES:
It� important to note that SAFETY is our prime concern therefore we strongly recommend.
1. TO ALWAYS BEGIN LOADING AT THE RECOMMENDED MINIMUM �START� LOAD and develop loads in 2% increments towards the MAXIMUM load.
2. If possible, measure the velocity and correlate with our data.


Regards
Johan Loubser
Ballistician
Ramshot.Accurate Powders
Tel: 406.234.0422 email: [email protected]
WesternPowdersInc.Miles City.Montana.
COMPANY WEBSITES/PRODUCTS:
www.ramshot.com
www.accuratepowder.com
www.montanaxtreme.com
www.blackhorn209.com

Golly gee Bobin.........So a fella can't even state a simple comparison of two cartridges loaded to Saami specs without getting an ars reaming. I agree 100% that if you want to fill the 7 mag case to capacity it will outrun a 280 AI no question. Not really that difficult to figure ya think! The problem I have with advocating such a proposition to any of the young impressionable minds is the fact that neither you nor I know for a fact why the 7 mag has a lower Saami map. I personally am one of the new to reloading impressionable minds that reads this stuff everyday along with a close friend of mine. I never ever load beyond book max however my close friend does and is constantly telling me about reading pressure signs this and some old-timer said this on the forum. Well guess what!!!! He blew one of his rifles up right in his face! He wasn't hurt however this really is serious schit the impressionable young minds are learning. I think about when my children are older and reloading because it can KILL THEM!!!!!! I will teach them vigorously.....start at minimum book load and work up with caution.NEVER EXCEED MAXIMUM PUBLISHED LOADS!!!!

There's some good advice for our impressionable young minds.

Shod

Fellows I really like my 280 AI and as long as I work within the parameters noted in the manuals I am not stepping on anything. But make no mistake, Nosler #6 clearly shows that in a speed match the 7 rem mag clearly is faster in all bullet weights and it does it with a shorter barrel (why the hell they chose 24" befuddles me).

I hope anybody that is playing outside the known boundaries will proceed with extreme caution. To me its just damn foolish to risk so much for so little.

Randy

Im at work so i dont have any manuals handy. i have No dog in this fight but Noslers online data was easiest to find fast. Surprised what I found.

Nosler actually shows the .280 A.I as fast or faster then the 7RM for 120, 140,and 150's. Pretty much even on the 160's and slight advantage to 7RM in 175's.

Granted the 280 AI data is for a 26" barrel and the 7RM a 24" but the 7RM was using more powder most of the time.

I'm not the smartest man and would have sworn the 7RM would have had a bigger advantage but according to that data and the Saami map they aren't far apart.

As said above I don't have my own pressure barrel but I'm making the assumption that Nosler isn't leaving much on the table when it comes to Saami specs.

I've never went above Max book in any of my rifles and dont see a need to. I typically am shooting close to max if no pressure shows in my rifles, but i wouldnt say i "hotrod" any of them. Some rifles shoot faster then others which is a given but assuming people are hotrodding their .280 AI to get close to 7RM while following Saami is a stretch. The data shows they are very damn close with same barrel length and loads. 100-150 fps isn't much to me when the bullet is well over 3k.

Yes I shoot the 140 TTSX at Barnes posted max but in my gun the primers aren't flattened, bolt lift is easy, no signs of brass stretching or other pressure signs that the common shooter can see. 62 gr of R22 in a 24" tube gets me 3315fps, takes 65 grs IIRC to do that in my 7RM with its 26" tube and it doesn't like that load for accuracy.

I also have owned a .270 which got its 140's to 3050fps with a 24" tube and book max loads which iirc was close to 56 grs. So I'm shooting 6 more grains of powder for 265fps more.

Long way of saying there really isn't that much difference if barrel lengths are same and Saami map is followed.

I'm not sure if Nosler's online data matches the data they publish in their books or not, but they sure do show some goofy powders for the 7RM (I was dickin' around looking at their online data the other day). For instance, they list IMR 4064 for their 7 Rem 160gr data... that's just odd to me. In my short time hand-loading, I've always tried to use the slowest burning powder applicable to the cartridge at hand.

Off topic, but thought that it was interesting anyways.

Oh BTW, being a young impressionable guy, I am hereby vowing to go home this weekend and go on a mission to turn my 7Rem into a 7-378 Weatherby. I'll be damned if I can't get those 162s moving 3500. Ken and Bob, you are to blame!

[bleep] it.... 7 BMG....

Tanner,

I too was surprised at some of their powders for 7RM. Not sure mine has seen anything but R22, And Magpro off the top of my head.

I just found it interesting that Nosler online had the 2 rounds so close even though the .280AI had 2" more barrel the 7RM had more powder.

I do know the 7RM will beat it with equal barrel length but again it can use more powder.

There is simply no replacement for displacement but the race isn't a run away for sure.

Expected barrel/throat life of what > 200 rds???

I just want to watch...

Oh yeah, any shot I'd take with one I'd take with the other, no doubt about that. Both killer rounds!

Pretty sure Pac-Nor lists a 6.5-50 BMG reamer on their site... grin

Side note-gunsmith friend was telling me the other day that a buddy wants him to twist up a 7-378 Bee for real. Telling me this as he is working up loads for the 6.5 STW he just screwed together and pumping 120 TSXs at 3900ish.

Had an 7 STW before I got the RUM. 120's at 3650 sure impressed coyotes.

Keep printing those numbers.....You don't have a clue what pressures you're running to get those speeds in your rifle...all you can do is read about it and "assume" unless the pressures are measured in "your" rifle.

I can tell you don't have that much experience doing this because you keep pointing to printed data like it's gospel, and it isn't...you have a touching and abiding faith in what you read and you believe it....sure sign of someone who doesn't know WTF they are talking about.

Shod, go read some more....come back and talk to me after you've poured over data for another 20+ years and compared it to real life chronograph data in 25-30 7mm barrels...then I'll listen.

nsaqam you're right...I have never owned a 280AI,only two levels above and below it several times over....and I bet I had chronographed and worked up loads for more 7 mags by the time I was 30 than you have in your whole life.Bet you have had exactly "one".

To be blunt, I never could justify the cartridge because a close pal on here(whose forgotten more about 280's and 280AI's than you'll EVER know),always provided me data 25-30 years ago from two versions of Improved 280's...the Ackley and the RCBS.... and we both said..."Well, that thing ain't worth it" LOL!

Fred Huntington (you guys know him don't you? He founded RCBS) tried the cartridge back in the 60's IIRC,and dropped it...not worth it over a standard 280,certainly not worth it in light of the 7 Rem Mag...

Anybody recall Johnny B running 280AI factory ammo with 140AB over a chronograph?I do...it gave a whopping 3040 fps....and the 280AI is their baby!What happened to the 65,000 pressure ceiling with that one LOL!

Besides, I've had Ackley's stuff sitting around since the 70's....I never paid any attention to what he wrote because he didn't hunt.All he did was sit around popping primers and "guessing" with his wildcats anyway.I never considered his inventions worth shidt.

Why would I waste the money on a custom wildcat that gives a 150 gr bullet 3050 fps? I can run to Walmart, pick up a box of CoreLokts for a 7 Rem Mag and have the same thing.

Besides that, I have a 280AI...it's my fireform load for the Mashburn with 140's ...you can bet I ain't running 65,000 psi to get Ackley performance.

Goofiest cartridge comparison and number juggling I ever heard....using a longer barrel,and higher pressures to proclaim a cartridge of smaller capacity as somehow superior to a larger one with a shorter barrel....when you don't even know what pressures you're actually running, and failing to acknowledge that barrels vary enormously in delivered velocities, rifle to rifle....if you ladies haven't figured that out yet, you really don't know shidt.

You still have no explanation for the Nosler Data....you clowns who question Noslers lab,get real.

My problem isn't with the 280AI, even if it is mostly mundane hocus pocus with no real advantage over a 280 or 270...it's with SOME of the idiots who use it and make wild-assed claims for it,thinking it's the second coming.

Stay with it Ladies!

Here's some clues for the witless who take an innocent faith in bunches of printed data:

There is ONLY case volume and pressure.There is no magic in case design as far as velocity is concerned.Pressure is affected by a variety of factors; among them are barrel internal dimensions,finish,smoothness,barrel length,condition,throat and leade length and configuration,groove diameter,and we won't even get into variations in bullets and powders along with powder energy, primers and how you hold your jaw that day.

Just because you are loading to "SAAMI" tested data from another barrel does not mean you are safe and running at the same presures.Conversely, just because you are loading powder charges in excess of manual data does not always mean you are "unsafe" or loading to excessive pressures or in excess of SAMMI spec.

What this means is that unless you box up your rifles and loads and ship them to a ballistic lab(the way that guys like Warren Page, and Bob Chatfield-Taylor used to do in the days before home chronographs),or buy an Oehler or other spressure system for home use, you have no idea at what pressures you are operating,due to the many variable factors cited above.

You are only left with velocity readings,outward signs of presures and traditional pressure signs,a broad range of data,and velocity readings from your chronograph.(Note the language at the bottom of the load data that nsaqam posted: "if possible, measure the velocity and correlate with our data..." what do we suppose he means by that?

BTW in looking at that data,it looks normal and about what I would expect from a 280AI....(not some of the excessive speeds I see listed by some on this forum,which are so clearly off the charts I have to wonder at the stupidity of it all)...a 7 Rem mag with a 24" barrel will easily hit and exceed those velocities.

So, when I see some one get on here and proclaim to the world that velocities for a smaller cartridge equal or exceed those of a larger cartridge and "claim" that their loads are within SAAMI specs because he is using "proven" data, I am not only skeptical; I know for sure something is not equal across the board.

Another thing that anyone with any experience realizes is that with light bullets a slightly smaller cartridge will come "close" to a larger cartridge with the lighter bullets if you kick it in the ass hard enough....but will never come close with the heavy bullets.

So when I see velocities quoted for a 280AI with a 140 gr bullet that equal those of a 7STW,or those for a a 160 gr bullet that I know is about maxed out for a 7 Rem Mag with safe but top end loads(after seeing piles of them at work),and listen to them trot out a bunch of printed data and quote QL as "backup" established in other barrels,I know they are FOS and clueless.

They cannot possibly "know" unless their loads were pressure tested in their rifles with those components.

All people have to do is apply John Barsness 4-1 rule ie...for every 4 percent increase in powder capacity there is a 1 percent increase in velocity.

Uh- oh!

Somebody mentioned 280AI and 7mm mag in the same sentence.

Now ya got Bob all slobberin and worked up

Bobin.....so your basing all of your information on the 280 AI off of what someone told you and printed data from a nosler manual????? When YOU have some real life experience with the 280 AI come back and talk to ME in 20 years or so. How exactly do you feel you are qualified to teach me about the 280AI when in fact YOU have ZERO experience with the 280AI.

Shod

To anyone that wants a .280AI, I say "Go for it." Never mind that I say the same thing to anyone that wants a standard .280 Rem or 7mm Rem Mag. There is nothing "wrong" with any of the choices.

As BobinNH correctly points out, though, they are not the same, nor can they be due to differences in case volume.

To those that suggest never exceeding published maximum loads, I offer this bit of caution - In 31 years of reloading I have come across several instances where published maximums were too much for my rifles. Not "blow 'em up" too much, but very short case life, flattened primers, loose pockets, etc.

My 7mm RM is a case in point. Something in my 7mm RM chamber causes a light 1/2" long scratch on the case every time a case is chambered. As a result I can easily tell how many times a case has been fired, or at least chambered, simply by counting the scratches. Using data available in 1982 I found I was getting 4-5 reloads per case before the case head would separate. Backing off the load enabled me to run 18 reloads before a case head came off. These days I use different powders (primarily H1000 and IMR7828SSC), get velocities I am very happy with and case life is good and long. And yes, my current loads slightly exceed the published maximums.

One of my .308 Win rifles had a similar problem with max loads - very short case life. Although it was extremely accurate with virtually every load I tried in it, it couldn't begin to compete with my .30-06s in the velocity arena due to lower case volume and even the max .308 loads were too much. (I ended up solving the "problem" buy selling my two .308's and buying an AR. )

My .280 Rem is a Ruger #1 and even with its 26" barrel it is no longer than my 7mm RM with its 24" barrel. While the longer barrel helps velocity, that help still doesn't bring velocities up to what I get with the 7mm RM. No worries, says I, as I like the .280 for what it is - a very capable cartridge in a launch platform I had drooled over for many years. That the .280 Rem launches the same weight bullets slower than my 7mm RM is of no concern at all.

To those that want to try to turn a .280 Rem or .280 Rem AI into a 7mm RM, I suggest reading up on Boyle's Law, then getting a 7mm RM. You can always download it to .280 Rem AI or .280 Rem velocities or even 7mm-08 velocities if you wish.

I have no dog in this fight but have read through the whole thread. Personally I am a plain jane 280 fan. This looks like a 270 vs 280 debate, are either really better than the other?

I did go to Nosler#6 to see what all the fuss was about and to be honest can not understand why Nosler uses different barrel lengths between the two. This goes across the board from the 7mm-08, is all I need and an efficient little round to boot, through 7mm RUM. To me if we are going to truly compare cartridge to cartridge then use the same barrel length or at least most common barrel length for each cartridge, really how many 7mm-08's and 280 rem's are out there with 26" barrels. At least they use the same twist rates

Now in their data they are running the 280 AI with a 26" tube and 7mm RM with a 24", safe to assume that the RM is losing 50-75 FPS in barrel length. Quick comparison using the 160 gr partition which to me is the type of bullet the bigger cartridges are used for. Take Rel 22, 7mm RM maxes at 3058, 280AI at 3035, even deducting the 2" of barrel,are we even talkin 100 fps? Nope

Again, all this back and forth and I doubt any animal or shooter for that matter could tell the difference. Recoil effects, the powder difference in the above is 2.5 grs of powder and my guess the 280AI is going to be built into a lighter package, so the recoil advantage is nil.

Me, I can't decide if I have a stronger affection for my 7-08 or 280 rem and now looking at a 7x57. Where and what I hunt, the 7-08 but if I needed more than the 280, I would take a strong look at the 280AI I also think if you really want to compare and argue a strong case could also be made for either of the short mags.

All said and done, you're really arguing apples to apples here

Not really into this squabble, I'll keep my standard 280
But I'm curious, you seem to be quite happy to frown on people that perhaps would exceed published data yet in another quote, you freely acknowledge that same data has been been reduced over the yrs likely because of liability. Do you now consider that old data unsafe?

"Don't be disingenuous Bob. You and I both know that SAAMI has reduced the MAP of the 7RM at least once and probably twice since it's intro."

Like I said...I've had everything 2 levels above and below,several times over.I won't waste the money on one.

Teach you something? Uuhh ....no. I wouldn't bother trying...... I think you're too [bleep] stupid to learn anything.You seem to have all the answers already LOL!

Wanna "learn" about the 280AI? Here's all you need to know from a bunch of rifles averaged across the board:

140's at 3150

150's at 3050

160's at 2950(about what a standard 270 gives with a 150 gr bullet)

Prove me wrong.

The 280AI has been around a long time....mostly a flop(fad cartridge) because it doesn't do anything not already done by far more popular factory offerings.You are capable of absorbing that, right? Maybe? This shidt ain't hard if you have half a brain and know WTF you're talking about,which clearly does not apply to you.

That's it.Nuthin special.

Now, do tell me about all your "experiences" with the 7 Rem Mag and all the other 7mm's...you have had all those, right?

Pretty much what I've gathered off these last two pages is that if we want a .284 of some flavor it better be 7mm Super Duper mag because a 7mm-08 isn't a .280 and a .280 will do everything/anthing that a .280ai will. And a .280ai just will never be a 7mm Rem mag, which in turn will never be a 7mm RUM, or a Mashburn or a or a STW. So there's really no point in all those lesser calibers because someone has taken more sh*ts in their life than the next person and they obviously know more about what you want to do than you do.


WHO CARES?? When someone tells me not to like something I like it even more.


When it comes down to it with todays scopes, ballistic aps, weather stations, etc. For shooting practical hunting ranges one isn't going to make a lick of difference over the other.

The only reason to build a .280AI instead of a 7RM..... is so you'll have a reason to talk with Friend Steve (Dogzapper) Timm. A man with more time behind the trigger of a .280AI cannot be found.... and you'd be hard pressed to find an all-around nicer guy. He will admit that the AI ain't the 7RM.... it's 'close' though.

I have had a couple of both.... and the 7RM is a better round as far as I'm concerned. I'd never trade a 7RM for a .280AI..... but I have done the converse.... twice.

Hello, my name is Troy and I am a loony. I know this because I read this stuff and keep coming back for more. What's troubling is I actually find it entertaining.

Okay, can we all just admit that the .280 A.I. is for dorky queers and the 7 Remington is the cat's azz? That's the only compromise I can think of to end this debate.

As far as 'pressure' is concerned.... here's how I see that... empirically. I currently shoot 63grains of RE 22 behind the 162Amax in my 24" 7RM. This load clocks 3000 and some change. Can you run a 24" .280AI to there? Probably..... BUT, how long will the brass last? I am on my 4th box of 162s with this lot of 50 brass.... and have not so much as bumped a shoulder... collet dies all the way.

The only pressure I know about is after eating college dining hall chili.... oh man.

Is this your coming out post?

Seems to me that boy is running a 7RM......

.280AI isn't for queers..... it's for overthinkers....

7 Rem here DT!

Hey tanner, gfy.

I joke, I joke...

Over compensating for something there son.....GFY

NICE!!!!!!!!!

If he were compensating.... He'd be shooting a RUM....

Yes. The .280 by a good margin.

In my .280 A.I. I run 60.5 of R22 under the 162 AMax and get a verified 3050fps from a 24" barrel. Book load that I assume was pressure tested as safe and shows zero signs of pressure in my gun. My data shows the brass has 7 loads on it and yet to find any issues with it.

Again not a 7RM but not as far off as some would think.

I have a load that will run a 162 at 3225 in my 7RM.... and show no pressure signs. Is that ok?

Depends on the gun of course. My 7RM hasnt fired 162 AMAX but its pet load is the 160 NAB right at 3200. book load 1.5grs under max. In your rifle it very well may be perfectly safe. My whole point is in the guessing that a guy is pushing a rifle too far that one has never personally handled.

When I developed my loads in my rifle I spoke to a Nosler ballistic technician, even sent pics of the fired brass and he said my loads were absolutely fine. During deer season this year I happened to stop into CCI/Blount as they are but 45 minutes from our hunting ground. Got talking rifles to one of their techs and he looked at my fired brass and said it looks fine.

7 loads into the brass with no bulging, thinning of the brass, primer pockets are right and no appreciable growth. So what If any indication do you have that I am over pressure?

Steve Timm who you admit probably has more trigger time then anyone on a .280 AI, Nosler tech, Barnes tech, CCI tech all say I'm NOT pushing the gun to the hairy edge but you claim I am? Interesting that the people who get paid to know this chit and likely have college degrees in it say its all good.

So yeah it's irritating that you propose folks like me are risking chit when actual ballistic techs who make their living doing this say I'm not pushing the Saami max very hard.

The thinly veiled claims and bkanket statements that those of us getting 3300 from a 140 or 3000 from a 162 are pushing the envelope of safety is plain asinine and your better then that.

Not all rifles or barrels are equal, I shoot 3 groove PacNors and tend to get 50-75 fps more then book speed with 1-1.5 grs less and work up and stop at the first even indication of pressure as I'm not dumb.

For you 280AI nuts, here ya go, Kimber Montana NIB:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/910852194/84L_Montana_280_Ackley_Improved_NIB.htm

Also the Kimber Mtn Ascent:

http://www.gunsamerica.com/974385915/84L_Mountain_Ascen.htm

Pics are of a Montana but the ad states Classic Select and AA Walnut

Bob is a great guy and his vehemence on this subject, as well as his ad hominem attacks, surprises me.
He certainly IS better than that.

I absolutely agree, both Bob and Dogshooter are usually 110% stand up members hence why I'm so surprised with the replies.

Ya can't tell me you ain't seen this before.

Everytime someone says "My 280AI can run close to a 7mm mag" Bob starts gettin' cranky and the next thing ya know everybody is an dumbazz and ya shoulda just built a 270.

Then Nsqamn starts in with the fugged up Saami specs for the 7mm mag and the book loads for the 280AI. Now Bobs all slobberin' and spit starts flyin!!!

"62k this...65k that.... take yer two extra inches of barrel and shove it up yer puddin ring ya dummy!!!!"


This [bleep] is hilarious! And it is also what makes us rifle loonies.

So fugg all y'all. I'm gonna run my 7mm Rem Express Improved!

To those who care I saw a 280 AI Ascent in a gun shop about 30 mins ago. 1700 bones is a ton load far as I'm concerned.

Dober

Buddy of mine is planning a 7mm Gibbs build with a 29 inch tube, ought to run with a 7 Mag and outrun a 280ai with the right loads

This is just me but tween the Gibbs and the AI there's no way I'd do the Gibbs (again).

Run a 29" on all 3 and lets see the sparks fly...grin

Dober

How did that Ascent handle, Dober?

I like the fit and feel of my Montana Ls in 30-06 and 280AI.

I like the 280AI more than my7mm RM and 280 Rem, but not as much as my 7-08.

That should light more fire in the rifle looney world....

taz-I didn't handle it today but in October I handled one at the range. 4 me they're just too light to be an effective tool for me. Plus, I want absolutely nothing to do with a brake.

I have a Lil Sky .308 and totally love the rig (though I wish it had a bit more barrel weight). All the other Montana's leave a bit to be desired for my likes.

Dober

Well he got the idea that he needed a Gibbs when he was shooting with me when I was working up loads for an 8mm Gibbs, He was trying to decide which one when he came across the 7mm dies and barrel on the cheap, old military barrel bore looks just about perfect...

Rainy my friend... I'm not questioning anything. Your within what you and a few guys think are safe... that's cool. You know what you're doing... I'm not questioning it....

I'm just saying I've had a few... the 7 is quicker... period. And, 65k to 65k the 7RM dominates the AI.... some aren't comfortable with that, for those guys there's the AI.

I can respect that Dogshooter and as I have said before yes apples to apples concerning barrel length the 7RM will outrun a .280 AI

I down loaded this from another site.This guy strikes me as careful and well reasoned handloader and 280AI user.Unfortunately when I downloaded the article not all the data came up, but IIRC from 3 minutes ago, he topped out at 3250 with a 140 gr bullet and a flat 3000 with a 160.

Note his comments about the 280AI being a "soft, unpretentious" 7 mag. Note also,his comment on water capacity of the case at 67.6 gr of water to neck/shoulder junction.I didn't do it, but compare that to a standard 280, a 7 Rem Mag,a 7mm Dakota,STW,and Mashburn.Lemme know if you care to.




Revised 03/21/02







The improved 280 Remington Case.







280AI with 168gr Berger VLD bullet

The 280 Remington Improved comes in several versions. The 280 Ackley Improved with the 40-degree shoulder is perhaps the most the common. The RCBS version by Fred Huntington with a 30-degree shoulder is more suitable for hunting with magazine rifles, for fast reloading. Although deliberate and slow reloading is recommended for either shoulder, when the magazine is used. The 30-degree shoulder creates fewer jams.

There are some very short-neck versions, like the 280 Gibbs. These versions will increase the powder capacity even more for a little extra performance, and will extract every ounce of power from the 280 Remington case. The only problem I have with these short-neck versions is that they are completely custom in all respects, including reamers, dies, and fire forming methods. But they are real performers.

Holding long 7-mm bullets concentric in a hunting type rifle with a reasonable neck wall thickness of 0.012 to 0.013" is not easy with only 0.280 or less neck length.

One version has a 0.300 neck length, which allows a 0.030" longer powder room than the standard fire formed version. For single shot rifles the necks walls can be reduced to 0.0085" or 0.009 and tend to be less obstinate. The value to reduce case necks that thin is questionable. Total bench rest techniques in reloading are mandatory to make them shoot well.

The 280 Ackley Improved and the 280 Remington Improved RCBS are basically the same except for shoulder angle. With the standard chamber and neck diameter of 0.318, the factory 280 Remington cartridges can be fired to produce the improved cases. The neck junction is set back 0.004" in the 280 AI chamber for a tight fit when standard 280 Remington cases are fired.

Fire forming will shorten the cases by 0.012" to 0.015". The common chamber dimensions are: base 0.469", shoulder diameter 0.455", neck 0.318, chamber length is about 2.555 depending on reamer maker. I prefer a length of 2.530. This length requires a special fire forming method without a bullet.

Since my chamber has also a tight neck of 0.311, virgin brass is first outside neck reamed. The neck walls are trued to a thickness of 0.0125. Most virgin brass is about 2.538" long. After all the case preparation work is done, the necks are chamfered and the cases primed and charged with 16.0 gr of 700X shot gun powder. The cases are then tightly packed with Cream of Wheat to within 1/8 of top. A dab of Crisco is used to hold the Cream of Wheat in place. Commence firing your cases. You are now ready for reloading.

Most of the time your first full power load will make the case 0.004" longer. I have used both the standard and the magnum primers and have settled on the Federal No. 210M Match Large Rifle Primers. Since my rifle is mostly for deer and antelope hunting I do experiment with different bullets in the 130 gr to 145 gr ranges. The Barnes bullets do a good job on game, but have never produced the best groups in some of my rifles.

My favorite powders for the above bullets are IMR 4350, H4831 and Reloader #22. The Norma cases I use have a water volume of 67.6 gr., filled to neck and shoulder junction. A starting loading density for the above bullets and powder choices would be 85%. Work up from there. Also I have found that IMR 4350 will show sign of high pressure before maximum velocity is reached. I most cases Reloader 22 will reach higher velocities.

Although Norma brass cases are more expensive than domestic cases, the outstanding dimensional consistency of the Norma 280 cases are in my opinion worth the extra cost. I have found that Remington cases are as much as 0.007 undersize and some with more than maximum headspace. Since all cases have to be fire formed the headspace is easily eliminated. But the bulge on the bottom can not, and will eventual allow for primer pocket expansion. These cases were made for semi auto rifles and intended to fall into the chamber.

The 280 Ackley Improved qualifies as an unpretentious 7mm soft magnum. It does not have to take a backseat to any of the medium calibers. The outstanding selection of bullets makes it one of the most versatile hunting rifles. Try it on antelope, deer, moose and elk. The two latter species require the 175-gr. bullets. Also I have killed moose with 160 gr Speer bullets.

With a bullet seated in the case the outside diameter of the case neck is 0.308. The radial chamber clearance is 0.0015" (284+12+12 = 308). Chamber neck is 0.311.

Here are some of the loads I have used and still use. These loads were fired over time in four different rifles and considered maximum in the guns I used them in. This is not a loading recommendation and should not be used in any other gun. Use your case water volume measured in grains to the bottom of neck and multiply by 0.85.

For instance 67.6 gr of water x 0.85 = 57.46 grains of powder for the appropriate type of powder, would be a starting load. The powders listed below are appropriate types for this cartridge.



Bullet Weight
Bullet Make
Powder Weight
Powder Maker
Group @ 100 yards 3 shots
Velocity estimated

140 gr
Nosler solid base
60.0 gr.
H 4831
1.00 inch


162 gr
Hornady BT
60.0 gr
IMR 4350
7/8 inch
2950

160 gr
Nosler Part.
61.0 gr
IMR 4831
3/4 inch
3000

139 gr
Hornady FB
62.5 gr
IMR 4831
3/4 inch
3250

139 gr
" " "
61.0 gr
IMR 4350
-----
------

140 gr
Nosler Part.
62.0 gr
IMR 4831
0.700 inch
3200

140 gr
Barnes- X
62.0 gr
IMR 4831
1.50 inch
----

140 gr
Barns-x
61.0 gr
IMR 4350
3/4 inch
----

140 gr
Nosler Ball Tip
62.0 gr
Reloader # 22
0.250 inch


130 gr moly
Nosler Ball Tip
60.0 gr
IMR 4350
2.00 inch

OTOH we have this....down loaded from another site as well.I'm not sure if this guy is a thoughtful, reasoned handloader or a dangerous nut,and is one reason I regard some 280AI handloaders as a bunch of riverboat gamblers willing to dangle by threads on the brink of imminent disaster....notice the warnings and constant reference to loose primer pockets.

I am caused some doubt about his intelligence and experiences,however, when I see the references to the 280AI being the "perfect" case capcity for the 7mm, and anything from the 7 Rem Mag on up being "overbore"....clearly another guy on a mission.

I know from my own experiences that a standard 280 in a 22"-24" barrel is hard [ressed to hit 3100 fps with a 140 gr bullet....how it is that you can add 300 fps to that velocity and get 3400 fps from it by increasing case capacity to only 67.6 gr in the 280AI has me completely flumouxed(that is stretching the limit for a 7mm Dakota,STW or Mashburn)...and another reason I consider the cartridge to be nothing more than a lot of overblown hype hawked by guys living on the ragged edge of disaster.

Everytime I see one of these 280AI threads I think I should get one;then reason prevails and I know I will simply piss $2k down the toilet and the thing will be down the road in 6 months.

I'm through with this stupid [bleep] topic...and the fools who want to believe this shidt,which is all it is.....







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Ackley Improved User
New Member



USA
11 Posts
Posted - Mar 01 2005 : 15:26:46
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This is my 280 AI Oehler-chronographed data with 140 grain Sierra flat-base bullets and a 26" barrel - THEY ARE HOT, SO BE CAREFULL AND WORK-UP THEM FROM 3 GRAINS BELOW MAX IN 0.5 GR. INCREMENTS. STOP! when you see pressure signs.

140 Sierra FB - Alliant Reloader 25
66.0 grs. - 3234
66.5 grs. - 3271
67.0 grs. - 3322
67.5 grs. - 3430 (Maximum!)

140 Sierra FB - IMR 4350
60.0 grs. - 3304 (Maximum!)

140 Sierra FB - Alliant Reloader 22
63.0 grs. - 3241
64.0 grs. - 3300
64.5 grs. - 3318
65.0 grs. - 3342 (Maximum!)

~3400 fps velocity is achievable with a 26" barrel and Reloader 25. But, go no higher and use only first-rate modern bolt action rifles in perfect condition. Subtract ~25 fps for each inch less than 26 inches.



Ackley Improved User
New Member



USA
11 Posts
Posted - Mar 01 2005 : 15:30:08
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This post is relevant to Ackley Improved users or proposed users. This post was originally stimulated by a question on another form of "how does Hornady get enhanced performance from their Light Magnum ammunition" - that is, what's their process. Below was my response, but I'd like to get feed-back from the reloaders posting here. What do you think? Besides, I though the individual interested in getting a 280 Ackley Improved might appreciate this post.

I don't know what factory process is used for the Hornady Light Magnum ammunition, but you can equal or exceed their velocities without excessive pressures, if you're willing to tap in powder and use compressed loads.

I have a .257 Ackley Improved (AI), .25-06 AI, .280 AI, and 30-06 AI. All guns are custom made bolt-action rifles (Rem M700 or Win M70) with match-grade 26" barrels. I have developed loads for all by experimenting with almost all available modern powders and by chronographing every test firing (Oehler with three screens). I've developed these loads in conjunction with the NECO Internal Ballistic Program. I have reams of data.

The best performance - at a given pressure for a given weight bullet - is almost always obtained with the slowest burning powder that will fill the case and bring the maximum pressure to the desired level. For example, consider Reloader 25 in a 30-06 using 165 or 180 grain bullets with no higher than 65,000 psi. A standard Winchester 30-06 case will roughly hold 66 grains of R25, when tapped in and the powder compressed by the bullet. Reloader 25 compresses nicely, and with tight case necks the bullet will not be pushed back out by the compressed powder. With a 24 inch barrel, maximum velocity with a 180 bullet will be right at ~3000 fps, and with a 165 grain bullet right at ~3100 fps.

I would NEVER recommend starting with this load, but rather recommend working up to it by starting from 62 grains of R25 - then incrementally increasing the charge by 0.5 grain increments until serious pressure signs develop or you achieve 66 grains.

I'm willing to tolerate "significant" pressure - that is, pressures often used when loading the .270 or some of the newer magnums. (These new magnums look good, because they're being loaded to pressures significantly higher than the older calibers - well over 60,000 psi � even close to 64,000 psi. Hence, the comparisons to the �old� are not fair; remember, the companies want to sell new guns.)

A standard modern bolt-action rifle will tolerate pressures in excess of 150,000 psi; hence, you're not in danger of bursting the gun � not even close. But, you don't want to load beyond 65-70,000 psi, because beyond that pressure you can get a sticky bolt or even a frozen case in the chamber - a disaster, if you need a second shot at the trophy of a lifetime. Loading to 65,000 psi will loosen those primer pockets fairly quickly � although I�ve read that brass cases will �take� up to 80,000 psi without overt failure. (By the way, converting CUP pressure to other measures of PSI is a vague and unclear process, without clear conversion tables or rules.)

To test for loose primer pockets, I hand prime all cases and "feel" the primer into the pocket - indeed, you can consider your brass case a type of "copper crusher" pressure gauge. I don't care too much about multiple reloadings of a single case, because cases are cheap, expendable, and very easy to replace.

Finally, I�ve found that Reloader 25 is the single best slow-burning powder on the market. I routinely get the best performance � both accuracy and velocity � with the lowest pressures. Yet, you must load a relatively heavy bullet. When you go to lighter bullets (e.g., 150 or 130 grain for the 30-06), you�ll may need to use R22 or R19 to achieve maximum desired pressure.

Please keep in mind that the 30-06 AI is only a small improvement over the regular 30-06 - that is, ~7% increase in case capacity. For example, with Alliant Reloader 25, I can tap in ~66 grains in a Winchester case, for a 30-06 AI case I can tap in ~71 grains - both filled just below the top. Then you compress those super charges with a 180 grain Nosler BT, and you'll get ~3000 fps with the regular 30-06 and ~3100 fps with the 30-06 AI. Pressure will be ~65,000 psi, and primer pockets will loosen fairly quickly - maybe only after a few loads. Is this worth it? For me, the fun figuring this out was worth it. But, maybe not for you.

The 280 AI and 30-06 AI are essentially identical in performance - get one but no need for both. When worked-up, as described above, the best load I have for the 280 AI is 67 grs. of Reloader 25 with a 150 gr. Nosler BT, which will produce ~3250 fps in a 26� barrel.

The 25-06 AI is over bore and not much of an improvement over the 257 Roberts AI. Of all of them, the 257 Roberts AI is probably the best - just about perfect bore for the .25 caliber - that is, given modern powders.

Actually, the 280 AI is just about perfect bore for 7 mm caliber - the 7 mm Rem Mag and equivalents are all over bore, in my opinion. The 30-06 AI is under bore for .308 caliber - I believe the 30-338 is just about perfect bore for 30 caliber - that is, until high-energy slower burning powders are developed. I find that Reloader 25 is the best high-energy slow burner out there. I know of slower burning powders, such as H870, but they don't seem to have the energy content.

As a final note, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT THAT I USE ONLY THE BEST COMPONENTS, WEIGH EVERY CHARGE, CHRONOGRAPH EVERY LOAD, ANALYZE MY FINDINGS IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE NECO INTERNAL BALLISTICS PROGRAM, AND SHOOT WITH CUSTOM-MADE BOLT-ACTION RIFLES OF THE ABSOLUTE HIGHEST QUALITY! If you plan to do why I�m doing, you should do the same � compromise nothing.

Regards, Ackley Improved User

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer nor the staff of this forum assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Ackley Improved

Bob my friend you kind of just proved my point with the article posted. I get 3315 out of 140's and 3050 with 162's.

So my rifle is doing 50-65fps faster then the authors and I'm using what he admits is a faster powder with less pressure.

Again I respect you sir but that articles matches my claims to a "T"

Good luck.

I might as well put my two cents into this argument.

I am an unabashed devotee of the .280Ackley. Here I should also note that my chamber is the older "wildcat" chamber and not the newer SAAAMI/Nosler chamber.

It is the easiest to load for most unfinicky cartridge most consistently accurate rifle I have ever used.

But it is not a 7mm magnum unless you use top end blue ribbon loads for the .280AI and compare them to the rather pedestrian 7RM factory loads.

A well developed full potential load in the 7RM will outrun the Ackley by a good bit and as the bullets get heavier the bigger the edge to the 7RM.

For my purposes I use two bullets in the .280AI. First is the 120 grain Nosler BT. With 61.0 grains of H4350 I get around 3325 fps and crazy good accuracy from a 23 inch Shilen barrel. Its a near maximum but not crazy hot load.

I have cases that have been fired 10-12 times with no need for trimming or loose primer pockets or any other signs of high pressure even when fired in 95+ degree weather.

Second is the 162 grain AMAX with 58.0 grains of 7828. It is a low to mid-range load that makes 2840 fps out of my rifle's 23 inch barrel. I could probably get another 75 fps or so out of the 162 but I doubt I will bother as the accuracy is so fine and with the high BC of the 162 AMAX 2840 fps will get you a long way downrange in style.

+1

Got the same results as did Accurate Powders ballistician Johan Loubser.

Mallard please do me a favor and don't pull my quotes out of context for the purpose of proving your "point".

What I should have explained but did not take the time to do ( and what I meant) is that Rl22 and similar double based propellants will frequently continue to add more velocity as you add more powder with a corresponding increase in pressure,although you will not see it until you have gone too far....only modern brass is saving you even though you are already WELL over te top...unlike some single based propellants like H4831, which will hit a velocity "wall", and give little to no velocity increases as charges are increased.Your chronograph tells you this is going on with both types of powders.

R22 shares this characteristic with sveral others that are similar...Norma 205, MRP, R19,the old and now gone H205.I have worked with them all and seen this deomnstrated numerous times.

You get away with this crap for awhile, thinking everything is OK,and then one day...POW...I have blown two primers in 40 years of handloading...one with H205 and the other with R22 in the 280.

Back in the 80's a few nuts were using N205 to push 140 gr bullets from the 7x57 in excess of 3000 fps...much the same trash I see among you 280AI users today.So it isn't like any of this nonsense is new;it was junk data then with the 7x57,and this is junk data now..

Anyone with any degree of experiences with the double based powders and similar slow burning single based powders in the same cases know this stuff.

So I did not 'prove" any of your contentions and if you are loading like the second guy whose article I posted all I can say is good luck to you....you're one of the 280AI loaders I'm talking about.

To me a 280 A.I. is nothing more than a 280 with the advantage of vastly improved case life and reduced both thrust. The claim that A.I. cartridges mask pressure signs intrigues me not because I intend to run more pressure but because it tells me that the chamber design does not have week points in which the pressure is concentrated causing case distortion or failure at a sooner point in the life of the case. It's kind of like the difference between buying a vehicle that is a 50,000 mile throw away or a 300,000 mile marvel of good engineering. To me....engineering that increases the life of the machinery is a good thing. The engineering behind a straight wall case with sharper shoulders is in fact a very basic and simple engineering concept. In fact the principles involved are so simple you could call it stupid simple!

The claim that us A.I. owners are running excessive pressure is nothing more than a lying line of presumptuous BS. I guess we are supposed to buy and use pressure test equipment to load to pressure tested manuel loads for our 280 A.I.s even though 99% on this forum dont including Bobin Not Home! I'm getting tired of the lying presumptuous BS!!!!!Of course there are ones who will push the envelope from every caliber and make but this is not somehow mysteriously centralized to 280 AI owners. BOB....YUR FULL OF SCHIT!!"

Genius: I (use the term loosely)....along with straight tapers and sharp shoulders that don't stretch,we find finicky feeding in some rifles;high pressure that "seem" OK at home in (say) Illinois,could leave you stuck in the field with a jammed rifle when the temps hit 80 degrees in New Mexico or Africa.

The more tapered case extracts more easily due to the design of most bolt actions along the lines of the Mauser 98 types, primary extraction as you lift the bolt handle causing the case to pull away from the side walls of the chamber as the bolt handle is lifted...not so in a straight taper (Ackley design)as the case drags and sticks to the chamber wall,causing less reliable extraction and function.

The Brits and the inventors of the 7x57,the 30/06, the 270, and the 280,375H&H,300H&H all knew this stuff about bolt action rifle function, which you clearly "don't".

Of course you wouldn't know any of this because you don't know much except what you "read",are an idiot,and have little to no hunting and shooting experience.A treatise of what you"know" will fit on the back of a postage stamp,single spaced.

I'm still waiting to hear all your 7mm "experience" of which I suspect there is very little.

Go sit in a corner,junior.You know next to nothing...you're just polluting the bandwidth.

Chill out Bob you'll be stroking out pretty soon!

JHC, WTF happened to you?

Just curious how you know your barrel is 50-75 fps faster without knowing the pressures your running?
and you say your load work up is stopped when the first sign of pressure is seen, yet everyone you show your brass to says your brass looks fine even without checking the primer pockets or taking case head measurments or looking for case head thinning, is it possible even those you showed your cases to don't know for sure the exact pressures your running?

Isn't in lovely when people can sit behind a screen and tell people where to go and say someone is an idiot?

There's LOTS of people out there who don't have a clue what speeds they're running, what the BC of a bullet they're using, whatever it may be. Doesn't mean they don't know what their doing.

When you ASSUME, it makes an A.S.S OUT OF U AND ME!


Happy Holidays Everyone

My experience with the 280AI is that is does mask pressure signs and when I see claims of 140's @ 3350 I'm 99% sure that load is north of 65K, I really think the 280ai is a great cartridge but I never tried to make mine something it wasn't!

I think the 280AI is a very good option for a person wanting a good close to mag velocity in a standard action. A plus alone for me is that when loading one doesn't have to trim brass my least favorite part of reloading. Also Nosler and Sierra both offer data in their manuals for loading the AI.

Bob,

Not at all attempting to misquote you and of you read it that wayy apologies. I am just trying to honestly understand where you feel people like me have pushed too far.

As i read it, the poster of the article said R22 would give more velocity before pressures climbed then 4350 or 4831. That is in line with what the books say, what I have read and my experiences.

You say I'm well over the top yet my loads are at or under book max in several books and within 50-65 fps of book speeds. Is up to 65fps really that big of an indicator of a problem or not in the realm of being an acceptable variance in different barrels?

I don't ever try to push past what I read is a safe load and have worked up to. I am trying to understand how i am "well over" when my loads are like I said within what i consider an acceptable speed variance of book loads and countless loads posted online going back years.

No I will not push it past 3315 and may even take a bit of powder out of it if there is some compelling reason too but I haven't seen one yet except claims only that my velocity is too high.

Ackleyfan,

No I do not have my own pressure measuring device but do know for a fact that I get none of the well established pressure signs I.E. hard bolt lift, flat primers, extractor marks etc. After 7 loadings my primer pockets are still nice and tight, case head measurements show no sign of stretching and the 3 pieces of brass I have cut apart show no thinning anywhere.

So yes your correct in that no one can tell me for sure what the pressure is in my rifle. All I can go on is I'm following book load that I worked up to and everything that I can check in regards to pressure signs seems normal to me.

Guys, I'm not too hard headed as to think I know it all, nor too old to learn if someone has advice or an explanation. I just have a hard time wrapping my mind around claims that I've pushed it too far based simply on velocity yet nothing I can see says so.

As I said everything I have read tells me I'm near the top end but can find nothing that tells me I'm over.

Also is it possible that my barrel being a 3 groove has anything to do with my speeds being higher? Do they possibly create less pressure? I have 3 other 3 grooves in the safe and all of them reach book speeds typically at 1-1.5 grs under max and again with no pressure signs that I can see.

Like I said guys I'm all ears but I need a bit more then just my speed means my load is unsafe.

Let the brass decide......

If your brass will take it...... and your rifle will take it.. and you're ok with it.... why the hell should SAAMI or 'stick or Bob or Rainy or anyone else get to decide if you're 'safe' or not?

Bobin,

I may have missed it in all the post,what experience do you have with a 280 AI?

AF: Exactly....glad someone on here has the brains to "get it"!

Still have not seen anyone tell me how a case with 67 gr of powder capacity jumps 200-300 fps over a standard 280....Voodoo? Black magic?

338RCM I have ZERO experience with the 280AI...having owned and loaded for 7-8 280's and at least double that many 7 Rem mags,what, EXACTLY,is a 280AI gonna show me?

Nothing.

My 280AI is the only gun that has never shown any signs of pressure whatsoever, I have a custom 270 win and 2- 300 win mags that come up to speed .5-1 grs under max any higher and I start to see ejector marks mostly, primer pocket loosening and velocity over what most manuals say I should get...so are you over pressure? I believe you are but your right I have about as much proof as you do, you keep saying you haven't seen any "pressure signs" and what I'm saying is your not likely to see any with this case design and it's reduced bolt thrust....edited to add "until a case or primer lets go"

What "happened" to me is that I can only read the BS,and ridiculous claims for this cartridge,for only so long.

I'm pretty sure 67gr is the case capacity of the standard 280 not the improved version.

Must be everyone is already tagged out or somethin'....

BTW, the 7mag has a bigger capacity than the 280ai, and that's really all anyone needs to know to settle the argument.

56.0 grains of imr 4350, and a 140 ttsx was all it took to whack this oryx at 693 yards.
No super velocity, no trimming, just a light recoiling, super accurate rifle with years of brass life.

Wow, imagine that! A critter killed with a 280 AI running sane numbers, lucky I guess

Congratulations, looks like it was fun.

Randy

Mark...looks like you had a good time, Congrats!

Interesting topic... I've been reading this and many other threads on this site for a while, but just now felt compelled to jump in. I have a 280AI and love it. It's my first custom built rifle. I wanted something "different". Something that you can't go to any gun shop and buy. Something that you can't order on-line. Part of this plan was a unique caliber as well. It's built with a SAAMI spec chamber. I currently shoot 140gr Nosler Accubonds @ 3215 fps using 62.5 gr of RL22. Is it a 7mm mag? No. Is it close? Yes. I acknowledge that the 7mm Mag will beat it by a little bit in most ways, but I don't care, and neither do the animals I shoot with it. It's still an excellent caliber. I wanted something that most others don't have and I got it with the 280AI. Obviously it's not for everyone as the controversy in this thread confirms. But that's OK. We all have different tastes. If I had wanted a "standard" caliber that gave similar results I might have built a 7mm Mag, but that's not what I wanted. I have other rifles in "standard" calibers but felt the need to be a little bit different.
BP

You know, flashing that picture around is like eating in front of company and not offering them any.

Them Oryx are BEAUTIFUL animals! I hope to go to Texas and hunt one someday down the road. Congratulations!

Cory:

Considered a Kimber for next year but ran into a G33/40 action....

Have had a number of 280AIs and prefer them to the 7RM as you can get them a little lighter for the same recoil (say a pound or so)and they aren't as loud (assuming equivalent pressured loads). You can now buy the brass and it will get as close to 7RM velocities as you are going to get with a commercially available case derived from the 06 parent case. That is saying something.

Prior to Nosler publishing AI velocity, it was individual wildcat velocity reporting which leads to a lot of horseshit and bolt locking--currently going on with some larger cases... Some of my rifles did show pressure signs and some did not...notably a Forbes Ultralight 24 that I locked the bolt on, knocked the handle off with a rubber mallet, then humbly returned it to Melvin. Relying on pressure signs is a lot like divination.

My current 280 AI (Rifles Inc) does just what Nosler book shows minus the 2" for a 24" barrel. Look at Nosler 5-7, deduct 50fps for the test barrel and compare to the 270 (with approximate BC & SD bullets) and the 7mm Weatherby and you will see why it getting popular.

I have fireformed with a 280 case with loads, used the cow method, but mostly now just buy the Nosler brass....