If the rifleman pushes the bolt part way forward and a cartridge starts into the chamber and then pulls the bolt back on a push feed action he can push the next round under the first and jam the rifle.
This is why manually operated battle and dangerous game rifles have been made with control round feeding.
Besides it's good machinery. If you can operate a Bridgeport or a South Bend you will know what I mean. If you don't know what a "Bridgeport" or "South Bend" is then you may not.
FWIW, in the course of the past 20 years or so and thousands of rounds, I have experienced exactly one "double feed" that wasn't intentionally set up as a training excersice. It was a "push feed" M16A2. All my bolt rifles are push feed, and this has never happened to me. Ever.
Some also have problems finding the right gear when using standard transmissions or moving the lever to the correct position in automatics. However, most don't.
I do believe Savage99 needs to test ALL PUSHFEEDS to see if this happens with all of them. He could also publish an article.........oh that's right he is not a writer. Just an internet dingbat.
If the rifleman pushes the bolt part way forward and a cartridge starts into the chamber and then pulls the bolt back on a push feed action he can push the next round under the first and jam the rifle.
This is why manually operated battle and dangerous game rifles have been made with control round feeding.
Besides it's good machinery. If you can operate a Bridgeport or a South Bend you will know what I mean. If you don't know what a "Bridgeport" or "South Bend" is then you may not.
so, how did you get the bolt open without ejecting the first round? musta really had to work at that one.
The funny thing about this idiotic thread for me is I know I've seen more CRF jams than PF jams. A properly tuned CRF is a joy to behold, but they're not all created equal. Generally speaking, I'd say the average PF is far more reliable.
If the rifleman pushes the bolt part way forward and a cartridge starts into the chamber and then pulls the bolt back on a push feed action he can push the next round under the first and jam the rifle.
In your picture, the "jammed" cartridge does not appear to have started into the chamber as you describe. Further, it appears that the cartridge has somehow been extracted from the chamber and looks like it is still being held by the extractor. It almost looks like the cartridge is ready to be ejected if it were pulled back just a fraction of an inch further.
Could you please explain your picture further as to what is actually happening there, and exactly how you got the rifle into that condition?
The funny thing about this idiotic thread for me is I know I've seen more CRF jams than PF jams. A properly tuned CRF is a joy to behold, but they're not all created equal. Generally speaking, I'd say the average PF is far more reliable.
This might be true. It's true that not all CRF's are created equal; and the existence of an external non-rotating claw extractor is NOT the only characteristic of a CRF action...few really qualify as CRF unless rounds are tailored to magazine dimensions nd all the other stuf works in coordination with the rest of the actions mechanics.
That said,what I have seen screw them up the most is that the idiots have not mastered the difficult task of pulling the bolt all the way back with either action type until it jams against the bolt stop .Why this is sometimes hard to do is a mystery.
A few weeks ago I ran three rounds rapid fire from a KS Mountain Rifle,operating from the shoulder, and it worked fine.Actually I do this stuff before I start measuring OAL, tweaking loads,jamming bullets into lands,and other assorted gobblediegook....if it won't go "bang" on command it's useless anyway.
I don't own one PF anymore, but I'm under no illusion they don't work if properly handled. The "Short Stroke" thing is something experienced by those who've never developed muscle memory by actually working a Bolt Action from the shoulder properly.
Before I got used to the length of travel on the bolt of my new USA made Model 70, I short stroked the bolt a couple of times causing exactly the kind of jam that the OP is talking about and that's a CRF action.
The bolt still pushed the next cartridge forward until it goes high enough for the extractor to grab it. This means this kind of failure is equally likely between push and controlled round feed. CRF is really just a push feed until the extractor grabs the cartridge. Just watch it cycle, it's nearly half done before it becomes controlled.
There is ABSOLUTELY no difference between the two designs for this failure.
Before I got used to the length of travel on the bolt of my new USA made Model 70, I short stroked the bolt a couple of times causing exactly the kind of jam that the OP is talking about and that's a CRF action.
The bolt still pushed the next cartridge forward until it goes high enough for the extractor to grab it. This means this kind of failure is equally likely between push and controlled round feed. CRF is really just a push feed until the extractor grabs the cartridge. Just watch it cycle, it's nearly half done before it becomes controlled.
There is ABSOLUTELY no difference between the two designs for this failure.
Vanguard Shooter,
The CRF rifles I have don't double feed like your new M70 does.
I cycled my 1909 Mauser 30-06, Pre-64 M70 Custom 300 Win. Mag. and Styer Daimler .358 Win. Mannlicher. They will not double feed like you say your post 64 M70 (Classic?) does!
The cartridge rim snapped under the extractor immediately with significant force with the Mauser, Steyr and M70 and their extractors had complete control over the cartridge.
I tried my Savage 99F .358 Win. and it controlled the cartridge like a true CRF should.
Then I tried my Sako L61R .375 Improved and it double fed and jammed like a push feed will.
It did not jam like the first photo I posted but fed the first round almost all the way into the chamber. The next round, even though it had a spitzer bullet, jammed behind the first round.
Remember the 'US military sniper rifles' thread. The opening post was very similar. We all knew it was untrue crap spouted as fact. How many pages did that thread go?
The CRF rifles I have don't double feed like your new M70 does.
I cycled my 1909 Mauser 30-06, Pre-64 M70 Custom 300 Win. Mag. and Styer Daimler .358 Win. Mannlicher. They will not double feed like you say your post 64 M70 (Classic?) does!
The cartridge rim snapped under the extractor immediately with significant force with the Mauser, Steyr and M70 and their extractors had complete control over the cartridge.
Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and say that's total horse [bleep] and it's not how CRF works. I just tried it on my Husq 96 Mauser and it is possible to jam it in the same way.
Well, or at least sound like one. I don't think any of us ever actually got to see a photo of Lee24, or his .375 H&H, or the 500-pound packs he carries in the field, or....
Well, or at least sound like one. I don't think any of us ever actually got to see a photo of Lee24, or his .375 H&H, or the 500-pound packs he carries in the field, or....
His super secret ID and a change of tactics, maybe?
Well, or at least sound like one. I don't think any of us ever actually got to see a photo of Lee24, or his .375 H&H, or the 500-pound packs he carries in the field, or....
...the photos of he and Ingwe cuddling to stay warm?
If the rifleman pushes the bolt part way forward and a cartridge starts into the chamber and then pulls the bolt back on a push feed action he can push the next round under the first and jam the rifle.
This is why manually operated battle and dangerous game rifles have been made with control round feeding.
Besides it's good machinery. If you can operate a Bridgeport or a South Bend you will know what I mean. If you don't know what a "Bridgeport" or "South Bend" is then you may not.
yet anouther great example of a mentally ill person with a firearm
Savage_99 (Member #4200) User Registered On: 09/01/03 07:23 AM Last Online: 17 minutes 26 seconds ago
It's threads from morons like this that make me want to go out and [bleep] all my CRFs. Maybe you guys have EMBARRASSED this goofball enough he might go away permanently...
Savage_99 (Member #4200) User Registered On: 09/01/03 07:23 AM Last Online: 17 minutes 26 seconds ago
It's threads from morons like this that make me want to go out and [bleep] all my CRFs. Maybe you guys have EMBARRASSED this goofball enough he might go away permanently...
I think you should get rid of all of your CRF's....
Yup, me too and the first one that Jorge ought to dump is this old P-64 Mod. 70 Alaskan-.338WM. It was built in Winny's custom shop and his fine lady wife gave it to him as a birthday gift, but, given this, he should just mail it to me.......
Dang! Am I a kindly old phart or what. eh!
As to "Savage 99", welllllllll, he sometimes posts pix of some neat older rifles, but, he sure seems a bit "confused" about them at times......
I do believe Savage99 needs to test ALL PUSHFEEDS to see if this happens with all of them. He could also publish an article.........oh that's right he is not a writer. Just an internet dingbat.
Yup, me too and the first one that Jorge ought to dump is this old P-64 Mod. 70 Alaskan-.338WM. It was built in Winny's custom shop and his fine lady wife gave it to him as a birthday gift, but, given this, he should just mail it to me.......
Dang! Am I a kindly old phart or what. eh!
As to "Savage 99", welllllllll, he sometimes posts pix of some neat older rifles, but, he sure seems a bit "confused" about them at times......
Hey now Kute, you have plenty of those 338's....Let someone else have a turn
Age before beauty, my son, but, if the importer I would use here, "Prophet River Firearms" in Alberta, should suddenly call and tell me that a long package from Florida, has arrived and will be on DHL to Vancity, tomorrow, I will then put you in my will!
The funny thing about this idiotic thread for me is I know I've seen more CRF jams than PF jams. A properly tuned CRF is a joy to behold, but they're not all created equal. Generally speaking, I'd say the average PF is far more reliable.
Don, you don't even need a CRF rifle. You don't hunt! You that worried about a jam at the range? LMAO.
This has always been my contention with the guy. Same goes for the guy in the hunting optics forum that evidently only hunts high voltage signs on pump shacks.
If the rifleman pushes the bolt part way forward and a cartridge starts into the chamber and then pulls the bolt back on a push feed action he can push the next round under the first and jam the rifle.
Yeah, I do that all the time.
I decide I want to shoot, so start a round in.
But then I remember I'm scared of guns, so chicken out and start to pull the bolt back.
But then my little voice says "Man up you puzzy!", and I get brave and push it forward again.
If the rifleman pushes the bolt part way forward and a cartridge starts into the chamber and then pulls the bolt back on a push feed action he can push the next round under the first and jam the rifle.
Yeah, I do that all the time.
I decide I want to shoot, so start a round in.
But then I remember I'm scared of guns, so chicken out and start to pull the bolt back.
But then my little voice says "Man up you puzzy!", and I get brave and push it forward again.
And whaddaya know? I'm screwed again.
I HATE it when that happens!
shoot some cock on closing rifle for awhile(SMLE's, 1895&1896 Mausers, M1917's, ect) and you dont have to worry bout this kinda thing
There is a particular sound a SMLE or 96 mauser makes when worked correctly that is music to the operator's ears. No failure to feed or eject ever results with full force foreward and full force rearward the full direction. All of my bolt rifles are worked this way. I have never had a failure to feed or eject.
Yup, me too and the first one that Jorge ought to dump is this old P-64 Mod. 70 Alaskan-.338WM. It was built in Winny's custom shop and his fine lady wife gave it to him as a birthday gift, but, given this, he should just mail it to me.......
Dang! Am I a kindly old phart or what. eh!
As to "Savage 99", welllllllll, he sometimes posts pix of some neat older rifles, but, he sure seems a bit "confused" about them at times......
I don't think she'd approve! Love my PRFs and my PFs but given a choice, CRF all the way. To keep on topic, Salvage99's still an idjit..
That's the kind of dumbphuckery that makes Lee24 actually look like an engineer.
Well, at least Don can operate photobucket.
Lee was just smoke and mirrors. You have to admit that Don is farkin hysterical though. Although there might be one or two members who might take him seriously...
The CRF rifles I have don't double feed like your new M70 does.
I cycled my 1909 Mauser 30-06, Pre-64 M70 Custom 300 Win. Mag. and Styer Daimler .358 Win. Mannlicher. They will not double feed like you say your post 64 M70 (Classic?) does!
The cartridge rim snapped under the extractor immediately with significant force with the Mauser, Steyr and M70 and their extractors had complete control over the cartridge.
Yeah, I'm gonna have to go ahead and say that's total horse [bleep] and it's not how CRF works. I just tried it on my Husq 96 Mauser and it is possible to jam it in the same way.
Are you the the same lame brain from THF that tried to convince everyone than shooting 160gr. bullets out of a 7mm-08 at 2800 (Vanguard) was perfectly safe? Then provided some jicky link where you could just add powder indefinitely until a certain velocity was reached? IIRC you also stated that you only had a few primers fall out of the brass and it wasn't a big deal?
I think so. Go back to THF and try to your crapola there again. You know nothing of what you speak. Idiot.
I tried my Savage 99F .358 Win. and it controlled the cartridge like a true CRF should.
Then I tried my Sako L61R .375 Improved and it double fed and jammed like a push feed will.
It did not jam like the first photo I posted but fed the first round almost all the way into the chamber. The next round, even though it had a spitzer bullet, jammed behind the first round.
Not the best rifle for dangerous game!
A speer is good for dangerous game...if you know how to use it! Man was at the top of the food chain long before CRF.
Well, or at least sound like one. I don't think any of us ever actually got to see a photo of Lee24, or his .375 H&H, or the 500-pound packs he carries in the field, or....
...the photos of he and Ingwe cuddling to stay warm?
Ed
Ingwe does not belong in the same sentence with the other bloke.
If the rifleman pushes the bolt part way forward and a cartridge starts into the chamber and then pulls the bolt back on a push feed action he can push the next round under the first and jam the rifle.
This is why manually operated battle and dangerous game rifles have been made with control round feeding.
Besides it's good machinery. If you can operate a Bridgeport or a South Bend you will know what I mean. If you don't know what a "Bridgeport" or "South Bend" is then you may not.
If the rifleman pushes the bolt part way forward and a cartridge starts into the chamber and then pulls the bolt back on a push feed action he can push the next round under the first and jam the rifle.
This is why manually operated battle and dangerous game rifles have been made with control round feeding.
Besides it's good machinery. If you can operate a Bridgeport or a South Bend you will know what I mean. If you don't know what a "Bridgeport" or "South Bend" is then you may not.
And according to you, Remington bolts all fall off too.
If the rifleman pushes the bolt part way forward and a cartridge starts into the chamber and then pulls the bolt back on a push feed action he can push the next round under the first and jam the rifle.
This is why manually operated battle and dangerous game rifles have been made with control round feeding.
Besides it's good machinery. If you can operate a Bridgeport or a South Bend you will know what I mean. If you don't know what a "Bridgeport" or "South Bend" is then you may not.
And according to you, Remington boltsHANDLESall sometimes fall off too.
Actually no the 99 is CRF. You can empty the gun by cycling the lever 1/2 way closed, it will pick up a shell & eject it without closing the bolt.
My M-77 Ruger on the other hand will cycle a round from the mag to chamber even if the gun is held upside down....thought that might be important if anyone is charged by a grizzly while lying on their back ...just don't short stroke it or we all know what happens
If the rifleman pushes the bolt part way forward and a cartridge starts into the chamber and then pulls the bolt back on a push feed action he can push the next round under the first and jam the rifle.
This is why manually operated battle and dangerous game rifles have been made with control round feeding.
Besides it's good machinery. If you can operate a Bridgeport or a South Bend you will know what I mean. If you don't know what a "Bridgeport" or "South Bend" is then you may not.
And according to you, Remington bolts all fall off too.
Well, not all of them - but I have re-silver soldered two Rem bolt handles back on for customers - none on my own Rems however. I keep my reloads not tooo hot.... and watch the brass, regardless of rifle brand and caliber.
In any case, if a jam isn't a mechanical problem, then it is an operator problem...
My Winchester 70 push feed cycles upside down just fine. It never occurred to me that this was a desireable feature till I read the interweb about how it was essential if I ever go to Africa. I am good to go.
I took a push feed 7x57 to Africa three times. It is vitally important that it feed upside down in Africa, where we were hunting was south of the equator so everything was.....well....upside down!
My Winchester 70 push feed cycles upside down just fine. It never occurred to me that this was a desireable feature till I read the interweb about how it was essential if I ever go to Africa. I am good to go.
Everything needs to feed upside down if you live South of the Equator... of all people you should know that.
And the Coriolis effect is a real bish! If you have a right hand ( clockwise) twist in your rifle and hunt south of the equator, the bullets come out of the barrel all confused....
And the Coriolis effect is a real bish! If you have a right hand ( clockwise) twist in your rifle and hunt south of the equator, the bullets come out of the barrel all confused....
So that's why T/C made a left hand twist rifling on that .357 max 14" handgun barrel I used to have.........for the South Pole. Now I understand.
You aint gonna believe this ( well, maybe you might...) but the first thing I did on my first trip when I got to Joberg was run into the mens room and flush the toilet...yep, counterclockwise....
You aint gonna believe this ( well, maybe you might...) but the first thing I did on my first trip when I got to Joberg was run into the mens room and flush the toilet...yep, counterclockwise....
After that flight I'm sure it had plenty in it to confirm the rotation
Yeah, but if your already south of the equator, and you work your rifle upside down...then that means...that it wouldn't be going clockwise, or something...I will ask the OP to clarify this with a picture. He's the very man. Do push feed rifles jam more often north of the equator or south?
I think you guys are finally on to his point. Also, you have to have a CRF rifle in Alaska because of its proximity to the North Pole and all the magnetic interference which also causes jams on push feed rifles.
I just want you fella's to know [since I'm hunting and shootin' in my 8th decade] all this talk bout dementia and soft foods is downright insultin! Wait a minute, what is this thing ya'll keep callin' dementia, I know I've heard it just can't remember?
OK...so I been con-tin-platin this phe-naw-minaw for a month now.
What happens when you flush said toilet on the equator Does it just go straight down? Does it just stall out & do nothin? Does anybody have a toilet on the eequator
Or is this a true "push feed" as opposed to a "controlled feed" disposal!!
i have had malfunctions with both push feed and controlled round feed rifles, the most common being the round jumping out of the magazine box prematurely.
This has primarily occurred in both custom and semi custom rifles, not in unmodified factory rifles.
OK...so I been con-tin-platin this phe-naw-minaw for a month now.
What happens when you flush said toilet on the equator Does it just go straight down? Does it just stall out & do nothin? Does anybody have a toilet on the eequator
Or is this a true "push feed" as opposed to a "controlled feed" disposal!!
The same kinda person who says PFs "jam" more than CRFs is the same guy too [bleep] stupid to take his stock off and strip a gun apart. "I never done that stuff before. That's for gunsmiths."
To answer the most important question on this thread, right on the equator, on a container ship anyway, the water doesnt go down clockwise or counterclockwise, when you flush the toilet it sort of fights both ways and then goes down...
To take the thread seriously for a moment, as to jamming in push feeds or CRF - by far the most jamming, unreliable feeding has been with Mauser actions. Either poorly made ones, or actions chambered in cartridges different to the standard Mauser size and the feeding not being addressed properly or at all. There are also Mauser-type actions that are not strictly CRF either, although they claim the function.
I cannot recall a pushfeed rifle I have owned that has not fed properly. I have not owned any Remington 700's yet, but pushfeed Winchesters, Tikka's, Sako's, Ruger 77's, BSA rifles of different models, even Winchester lever actions, others I probably cant recall now. I am pretty certain on this, because I cannot abide a rifle that will not feed well and reliably.
All those who have had a jam with a PF rifle, raise your hands.
All those who have had a jam with a CRF,raise your hands.
All those who can cycle a bolt from the shoulder,put 3 shots into 8" at 75 yards off hand in under 10 seconds, raise their hands.
This is just Bullchitt. I never had anything like that happen. Even with a single shot or lever gun or my M1 or a Sux. Or a RSB. Or a Mouser. WTF does it all mean? Does Gus know?
You aint gonna believe this ( well, maybe you might...) but the first thing I did on my first trip when I got to Joberg was run into the mens room and flush the toilet...yep, counterclockwise....
One of the funniest things I remember on my boat was watching a bunch of guys in the head huddled around watching it glow from bioluminescence every time they flushed it. Actually, OlBlue may have been one of them!
The worst feeding rifle I ever owned was a full custom built on a true controlled feed model 70. That thing would not feed when I first took possession. It didn't want to eject especially well either. My push feeds have actually been smoother and more reliable than the CRF's I've had.
The worst feeding rifle I ever owned was a full custom built on a true controlled feed model 70. That thing would not feed when I first took possession. It didn't want to eject especially well either. My push feeds have actually been smoother and more reliable than the CRF's I've had.
I went to a school where they trained girls to cut hair. Walked out of the place with a crew cut
The worst feeding rifle I ever owned was a full custom built on a true controlled feed model 70. That thing would not feed when I first took possession. It didn't want to eject especially well either. My push feeds have actually been smoother and more reliable than the CRF's I've had.
The problem we have is that too many of us assume that because a rifle has an exposed,non rotating extractor,that it's CRF which ain't true at all...
CRF is a system,depending on many elements....and confusing many designs with a true Mauser 98,or properly tuned pre 64 M70...is where a lot of folks get fooled.
They still ain't made one as good as a true Mauser 98....but even those can get screwed up by ham-fisted gunsmithing.
The guy with the apostrophe in his name.does know how to make a M70 work prper, but he is not the only one.
I cannot recall a pushfeed rifle I have owned that has not fed properly. ...
This
Really... I mean seriously you guys have never had a rifle that did not have a function problem,as in feeding,extraction ejection.....ever...
And I am not taking swipes at PF either;you can throw CRF rifles into the mix as well.
I think you guys have been really lucky.
I hope to remain lucky too - I hate it when rifles dont feed properly or extract right.... I managed to jam a Winchester 94 once which is a push feed....I loaded it with four .30/30's and a 7mm08.
I took my CRF 30-06 turned it upside down next to my push feed 30-06 ejected a loaded round into the push feed rifle from the CRF rifle.It must not have fed right the push feed rifle jammed.
I don't usually shoot more than one animal at a time, unless they're lined up, so I'm okay with any of them. That said, I can foresee the day that my shooting deteriorates and would be more concerned with shooting stuff more than once.
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It's true that not all CRF's are created equal; and the existence of an external non-rotating claw extractor is NOT the only characteristic of a CRF action...few really qualify as CRF unless rounds are tailored to magazine dimensions nd all the other stuf works in coordination with the rest of the actions mechanics.![[Linked Image]](http://i400.photobucket.com/albums/pp83/skane_image/ScreenShot2013-03-04at83142AM_zps02b98c35.png)
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