I am looking for a North American big game (let's say everything but big bears) rifle and am experiencing a certain level of purchase paralysis. I am going to do a bucket list pronghorn hunt sometime in the near future, so a gun capable of very good accuracy out to perhaps 400 yards would be important. I may do an elk hunt at some point as well. Let me tell you where I stand so that you can give me the best possible info for my situation.

I had total shoulder replacement surgery, and it didn't heal very well. In fact I need another surgery. I have found that about 15 foot pounds of recoil is my comfort threshold. Closer to 12 is better yet. On the upper end, that means a 7MM-08 is about as much as I want to manage. On the lower end I am looking at 25 caliber cartridges. With those as the upper and lower end, that gives me the following options.

257 Roberts
25-06
6.5 Creedmoor
260 Remington
6.5x55
6.5x284
7x57
7MM-08

Here's where things may sound odd. I have rifles in 4 of the above chamberings. 2 are Ruger ultralights (257R and 7MM-08) that weigh right at 7.5 pounds scoped. One is a Ruger Predator 6.5CM and one is a 6.5x55 Howa. They both weigh 9.5 pounds scoped. The ultralights are accurate enough for the short ranges I normally use them at, but I would not be as comfortable as I'd like to be with their accuracy out to 400 yards. The 6.5 rifles are very accurate, but are too heavy for all purpose walk-about rifles. The hole that I need to fill is a highly accurate rifle that comes in under 8 pounds scoped. I have always made do with standard mass produced rifles. Lately though, I have had an itch to get up into semi-custom territory, though that isn't absolutely necessary.

My options at this point are getting a good gunsmith to either accurize one of my ultralights or put one of my heavyweights on a diet. I'd really prefer to leave the Roberts UL as is. Or I could buy a semi-custom (Nosler, MRC, etc.) rifle. If I went that route, $1500 would be my arbitrary upper limit. Or I could buy a mass produced rifle known for being accurate (Savage or Tikka come to mind.) I do prefer US manufactured rifles, but that's not an absolute must. I also prefer stainless, but that's not an absolute must either.

How would you fill that hole given the information I have provided?

Buy a Tikka in 243. I hate to sound flippant, but this is an easy fix.

6.5 Creedmoor

Lighten up either of your 6.5's. That'd be the ticket.

Tikka 25-06 Rem 115 Partition

Can relate to your issue as I have shoulder and neck issues myself.
Make it easy on yourself, get a Tikka T3/T3X SS in 6.5x55 or 6.5 Creedmoor and enjoy.

StarchedCover

I may never check off the elk hunt on my bucket list, but I'd want more than a 243 for that job. Otherwise, I love the 243.

How much weight could I shed off of the Howa and what would it cost? I do have a heavy scope, rings and bases on it, so I could probably dump 6-8 ounces there. That puts it at 9 pounds. Is there a way to dump another pound?

Paul, a 7x57 loaded with 150s at 2650 is very easy on the body, drop that to 140s and you are in for a nice day shooting...no pain and no feeling like someone has been belting you around the skull with a heavy wet pillow all day.

I like almost everything about that suggestion. I know Tikka builds a great rifle, but they are made overseas and though I am unlikely to ever need Tikka customer support, it's not very good at all from what I have read. In the grand scheme of things those aren't deal breakers. I like the 115 and 120 Partition for the 25-06! The 115 has been perfect for me in my 257 Roberts.

Of all the Tikka offerings, the 6.5x55 in a Stainless T3x Camo is my favorite. I haven't been able to locate one though.

I have a Savage Lightweight Hunter in 223. That rifle has delivered several loads into less than 3/4 of an inch in the little load development I have done so far. It's my favorite rifle and it's an absolute pleasure to carry. That same rifle is available in a stainless with an FDE stock in 6.5 Creedmoor for less than $450 after the rebate. If I knew I could get one in the 6.5CM to give me that kind of accuracy, I'd jump on it. There aren't many reviews on that rifle though, so I don't know if my experience is the norm or not.

What rifle?

On this I am somewhat biased as I firmly believe God hunts with a Brno model 21.

how about this:
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/707691070

What kind of accuracy are you getting from that 7-08 Ruger UL? Seems like that would fill your bill if you could get it shooting around 1 1/2 MOA.
You know asking a question like yours at the center of the rifle loonyism universe is going to get you lots of recommendations on buying new rifles that you don't necessarily need.

I have a 7X57 in a Winchester Lighweight, and a 7-08 in a Remington Mountain Rifle. I shoot handloads in both, and they are full power loads, both with 140 grain bullets, as I only hunt whitetails. I too had shoulder surgery years ago, and still have some pain. They recoil enough that it starts to bother me after 5 rounds or so. You can call me names, but until you've had shoulder pain AND arthritis, you have no idea.

Now, I also have a 6.5 Creedmoor, in a Howa that is heavier than either of the above rifles. I have yet to "feel" the recoil. Given a choice, I'd prefer either the 7X57 or the 7-08 as a deer rifle, but it is what it is, and I'll probably hunt this year with the 6.5 CM. Not to say that I won't use anything else, because I'll also hunt with a 243, maybe a 35 Remington, and perhaps for old times sake, with my 270.

People who have no problems with pain in their shoulders, or any other part of the body that can be affected by shooting, have no idea how lucky they are. People who do, usually figure something out.

get a kimber montana/ barret fieldcraft in .22-250 if you NEED a new gun =]

My 7-08 is still new. I ran a ladder test on it and I think I have found a spot to concentrate on. In my experience with Ruger ULs, I have always been able to find a load that will get down to about an inch and a half ALMOST all the time. Then you will get a round on rare occasion that opens the group up to 3 inches. Extrapolating that out to 400 yards is what gives me pause. I love the way the guns look and feel. Around here a 100 yard shot would be long, so they are perfect for that application. So to be perfectly honest, my 7-08 would very likely do all I need it to do, but at the core of loonyism is the pursuit of the next gun.

I am not willing to play Kimber Roulette. Not with the gun or their customer service. I love the Barrett Fieldcraft as a semi-custom, but as light as they are I am afraid in a 25 cal or greater the recoil might get uncomfortable on my bad shoulder. MRC on the other hand, may be just the ticket. Though I read a thread here about one of the special run 243s they did weighing in at 7 pounds 11 ounces. I need the bare gun to weigh 7#. I did Email MRC and they were nice enough to weigh one of their 257 Roberts for me and it was right at 7#.

This was my 3rd surgery and it was a total replacement with metal and plastic parts. I need to have a procedure done to remove some of the scar tissue. While the risk of infection with another surgery is low, if I do get an infection down into the metal implant I am SCREWED. That's why I have been holding off. I have had 3 knee surgeries too. Shoulders are far worse.

I've been kickin the crap out of one since 2013. Mostly on a quad . No issues. I live in B.C and hunt some pretty rough country. You will be safe with a Tikka.

Paul -

Sorry to hear about your shoulder issues. My hunting buddy has them too, as a result of his diabetes. Only one surgery for him, though.

He really likes my .308 Ruger Scout. I mounted a brake on it and with the synthetic stock he says it has "no recoil". The 18" barrel should get you 2900fps with a 130g TTSX and CFE223 or 2750fps with a 150g BT or AB and Varget. (My 16.1" gets 2868fps and 2699fps respectively). According to Ruger it should weigh 6.25 pounds plus the weight difference between the factory flash hider and the brake. Add to that whatever scope you mount.


Good luck whatever you choose.

Well, I don't want to tell tales out of school, but if you look around, you can find a Tikka T3 Superlight, like the one I bought from Whittaker's Gun Shop. It is chambered in 260 Remington. You could load 125 Grain Partitions, or 130 grain Nosler Accubonds. Either will make Elk deader than 100 Grain Nosler Partitions from a 243.....maybe.

Easy pick for me. One of these two should do you well:
6.5 Swede
25-06

Either one (or both - I'm an enabler ya know) in the Tikka

Ruger M77 Round top, 257 Roberts, 24" medium weight barrel with sights. 100TTSX, 110 Accubond.

Ruger No.1 .257 Roberts, 26" barrel, 110 Accubond, 386 yards, one and done. In behind the left front shoulder, broke the off side leg on the way out. Stumbled forward 2 steps and folded.

I would get the Ruger American Predator in 6.5 CM because it already has a threaded barrel. Then put a brake on it for even more recoil reduction. But if you really have elk on your mind, I would step up to a 7-08 with a brake. Buy a stainless Remington action, have most any decent gunsmith spin on a quality barrel, throw it in a McMillan Edge stock and you would have an excellent setup that would come in about 7-7 1/4# with the scope on board. It might even shoot as well as a Tikka does right out of the box. Easily elk capable to 400 yds, and the 120 Barnes TTSX started at 3000 fps is more than adequate.

I just got RAR predator in 6.5 CM. Specs say 6.6lb. What kinda 3lb scope you got on it? Or scope + bipod?

Also, I just put a brake on it. Very little recoil now.

That's a good looking stock on that #1.

Mine is the Hawkeye Predator.

10-4

If I had a dollar...

This is as light as you're going to get as a starting point. McMillan with EDGE fill is about $650 now. But I may know where you can get one at a considerable savings.

I missed the under 8lbs part.

Remington 700 SPS stainless 257 weatherby, 26" barrel. I had the barrel and bolt fluted, bolt handle skeletonized. As is no scope or mounts 6lbs 2oz. Has a heavy Burris Euro Diamond 3-10X40, all up sling and 4 rounds about 8lbs. Factory Tupperware painted by member John_Boy

Is that a Howa with a #2 contour barrel?

My recommendation is a little different, I'd suggest going with a 270 and adding a muzzle brake to knock the recoil down to 243 levels. If it has to be mountain rifle light Tikka would be an excellent choice.

My wife surprised me many years ago with a trigger job, bedding and a muzzle brake from a good local gunsmith on my tang safety Ruger 7mm RM and the difference was amazing. My son in law had the same thing done to his old BDL and added the mercury recoil reducer in the stock, it is too heavy for me but kicks like a 22-250.

The other option might by to go with a smi-auto Browning or Benelli with a muzzle brake to drastically reduce the felt recoil. I used to shoot with a physician who had lots of rifles but loved his Brownies 7mm as his primary hunting gun. He took lots of pigs and other critters past 400 yards with his.

Only you know your pain level so I'm assuming your situation as a worst case scenario. Sounds like you want to stay in lightweight rifle territory. If it comes down to recoil, run a 7mm08 or 7x57 for your heavy critters in a heavy rifle and suffer humping it (maybe get a gunbearer for your pack to help out?). If you have to have a lightweight general purpose deer rifle and the pain is that bad, or you're becoming overly precautious, get a 6.5 grendel in the Howa mini or CZ 527 or an AR15 if that's your fancy. Something more common would be a 243, 22-250, 223AI. All of that would be under your 12ft-lb limit.

That sucks. I hope it works out for you.

Yes.

7x57 and in a Winchester Featherweight.

Any of the 6.5's. If you already have any of them it really doesn't matter much, but if buying new the Creedmoor version is the only way to go. Recoil is only slightly more than 243 (about 12 ft lbs vs 11 ft. lbs in a 7.5 lb rifle), but performance wise it easily beats 243 or 25--06. At close ranges 270 has a slight edge, but beyond about 200 yards it beats 270, and does it with about 2/3 the recoil of 270. You can buy good factory hunting loads for under $20/box and match grade target ammo under $30/box.

6.5 Creedmoor

I have a good bit of hearing loss and prefer to avoid a muzzle brake. Right now I am torn between a Tikka, an MRC and a Savage, yes a Savage. My two most accurate guns are Savage.

Impressed. Tell me about the stock that might be available at a discount. Long action?

I could live with that. I'd have to find a used one. That rifle is available in 7-08 and 25-06 in current production and its is a consideration. Those calibers are also available in the Extreme Weather Stainless. They are priced in MRC territory though, and for that much money I'd probably go MRC.

I already load for my Hawkeye Predator 6.5 Creedmoor, so I have that going for me. If I bought a new 6.5 Creedmoor and it did what I wanted it to do, it'd make the old one disposable.

This is the old one.

http://www.ruger.com/products/HawkeyePredator/specSheets/47108.html

I love the looks of the Green Mountain stock, but it is heavy. I wonder how much weight I could drop with an aftermarket stock. With an aftermarket stock, 3 inched chopped off the barrel and barrel fluting, I'd be in heaven, but I also think I'd be beyond new gun territory with the money I spend on the mods. Any gunsmiths here or anyone know what it'd cost to get the barrel cut and fluted?

It should be obvious to everyone feeding me info that I really do have purchase paralysis. I am willing to spend good money on a semi-custom, or on good gunsmithing, but the practical part of me recognizes that a Tikka or Savage will do all I want it to do.

Paul, box up that 7mm-08 and send it off to Chet Brown at Brown Precision in California for a painted Kevlar stock. Those stocks weigh under a pound and are stronger than fiberglass. My scoped 7mm-08 Ruger M77 and 7mm RM Rem. M700 both are in the 7# range and both have variable 30mm diameter Euro 42mm objective scopes.

Of that list, I personally prefer the .257 Rbts

Here is a Winchester XTR Featherweight...
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/709336690

This Featherweight is like the one I own....
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/708926071

Paul:

Take this for what it's worth. I have both (Fwt and MRC) in 7x57. You're going to be hard pressed to get the MRC down to around 8 pounds since its 24 inch barrel is a "sporting contour," meaning that it has considerably more steel from about two inches behind the muzzle back to the face of the action than the Featherweight. But that extra weight might work in your favor since 1) it's muzzle heavy, giving it a steadier "hang" when not shooting from a rest - at least it does for me - and 2) the extra weight will help absorb some recoil, making it a bit easier on your shoulder. Even though I hunt mainly from stands and blinds, there are still places on our lease where there is a lot of walking and opportunities to still-hunt, and frankly I don't think the extra pound or so of rifle makes that much difference. I suppose if I was hunting sheep I might have a different opinion, but I'm not so I don't. Of course, you could always screw a featherweight contour barrel and composite stock on the MRC action, but you're probably going to be out of your budget by then, and I'm still not sure how close you're going to be to 8 pounds by the time you add scope, mounts, and sling. Mule Deer might be able to help here since his Kilimanjaro is built on an MRC action with 21 inch Douglas featherweight contour barrel, but the stock on his rifle is still wood. If you know the weight difference between wood and composite, you could do the math and come close.

As for loads, if you decide to stick with the 7-08/7x57, with all of the bullet selections out there it will be pretty easy to find something that will work for antelope, elk, and just about anything in between. I generally load middle of the road bullet weights (150-160) at middle of the road velocity (2500-2600). They certainly don't smack me around, especially when I'm shooting the heavier MRC. I use the bench for sighting in, then practice off sticks and/or unsupported field positions - which always results in less felt recoil, especially if I'm using reduced practice loads (2000-2200 fps). By the way, those reduced loads will definitely do a job on feral pigs (CNS shots), so I don't feel at all shy about slinging them at porkers inside of 100 yards or so.

I hope you find the combination you're looking for. Just bear in mind that as far as recoil is concerned there is always a trade-off between bullet weight/velocity and rifle weight, but I believe you'll be able to come up with at combination that works.

RM

Thanks for the response Mike. I am a bit puzzled or mystified by the MRC weight. The employee I emailed weighed one in 257 Roberts and it weighed 7 pounds. A member here said his 243 came in at 7 pounds 10 ounces bare. Both would be built on the same action and have the same barrel, as would your 7x57, so something seems out of whack. Did you weigh yours bare? I really want my final product with scope/rings/bases to come in at about 8.

Paul:

No, I never weighed it bare. But the differences in weight might come from a couple of places. First, even though the action lengths are the same (i.e., short), the barrel on the 7x57 is 24 inches, while the barrels on the .243 and .257 are 22 inches long. So there will be a few ounces saved there. Also, mine has a wood stock. Unless you specified otherwise, it might be that the one weighed by MRC was composite. That would save some weight as well. I can't remember what the factory says the wood stocked rifle weighs vs. the synthetic one, but my guess is that the shorter barrel and lighter stock would make up a big chunk of the difference.

RM

I am in the same boat you are and picked up a couple 6.5 cm's to play with. Same recoil as 243 but with a heavier bullet. Very easy to load for. Will let you know after the Fall how it kills.

Save yourself some change. Get a KDF muzzle brake installed on a rifle of your choice. It'll be loud, but definitely takes the sting out of any caliber outside of 22 LR.

Folks, this is answer to the question I asked. I liked the Howa barreled action enough to pump some money into it. Thanks to everyone who contributed to the conversation. The thrifty side of me thinks it's crazy to spend on a stock what I could have bought a Savage Lightweight Hunter 6.5 Creedmoor for after a rebate. Ultimately though, the hunting weight of this one is going to be right where I want it to be. The 6.5 Swede has a serious cool factor to me.

Threaded Barrett Fieldcraft, find the best muzzle brake and enjoy, 6.5 Creedmoor, low recoil.

I also like the idea of a 22-250 shooting the Nosler 64 gr Bonded load.

Rem 700 in .260

Wouldn't be a bad start to semi-custom build.

Kent

This thread title is misleading.




Dave

We got pretty deep into this before anyone spoke up.

That could lead to false charges.





Dave

Don't waste any more time, just get yourself a 257 Roberts and shoot 100 grain bullets in it. The 257 Roberts is the same magic to the 25 caliber as the 30-06 is to 30 caliber.

I have a Tikka T3 Lite in 308. It's very accurate out of the box with a variety of loads. With a Zeiss Terra 3-9x42, Weaver-style rings, and a Picatinny rail it weighs 7 lb. 9 oz. You can adjust the weight by changing out scopes, rings, and bases. Also, they make it in four cartridges from your list: 25-06, 6.5 Swede, 260 Remington, and 7-08.


Okie John

The $529 Stainless Savage Lightweight Hunter with the FDE stock kept calling my name. I caved. With the $100 rebate, it's a $450 gun after I pay my FFL. The one I have in 223 is ridiculously accurate. I happen to have a silver VX2 laying around. I'll be crowded at the 6.5 bore size with the Hawkeye Predator 6.5CM, the Howa 6.5X55 and now this Savage. One in an ultralight, one in a standard weight and a heavyweight.

I was thinking the same thing King . . .

.260 Rem is the cartridge . . . I have a few in Kimber 84M wood and Steyr Forrester Safebolt wood. The 6.5x55 Steyr Forrester would also fit the bill. I would like one in the 700 as well.

Here is the Savage Lightweight Hunter. I took it to the range today. I shot factory Hornady GMX. My best 3 shot group was right about an inch. She's going to serve me well.

[img]https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/se...ia/33438089868/medium/1509140057/enhance[/img]

Unless you want a custom rifle, with wood and perfect blueing based on a M98 or Win 70, there is NO, and I mean NO reason not to choose anything else then a Tikka T3!!! The Finns makes a superior product to anything produced currently in the US!

Get a McMillan or Bell&Carlson stock for it, and you are set for life. My favorite is the Sako Hunter modell.

Paul,

I might consider a different tack.

A few years ago, I was having vision problems in my dominant eye and got so frustrated that I started shooting left-handed. At first, I had a hard time even finding the scope with my left eye, but that got a lot better with practice. A lot of practice, actually. I even shot handguns using my left eye as the dominant eye.

My right eye eventually got better and I went back to shooting conventionally, but I do consider the experience to be a positive one. When you're starting from scratch, you really are forced to concentrate on the fundamentals.

If you were to start shooting left-handed, you wouldn't have to "limit" yourself to the cartridges on the list. You could open yourself up to a 270, 7mm RM, etc. If your shoulder problems continue, you might be forced down this road anyway. Just a thought.

I asked about lightening the Howa 1500. Whttail in MT offered to sell me his McMillan edge at a good price. I bought it in what was a perfect transaction. It arrived today, and I dropped the Howa 6.5x55 barreled action into it. So for less than I would have spent on a semi-custom rifle, I accomplished the lighter weight Howa AND the above Savage Lightweight Hunter in 6.5 Creedmoor. I have no doubts the Howa will deliver sub MOA accuracy.

[img]https://uniim1.shutterfly.com/ng/se...ia/33451894478/medium/1509581955/enhance[/img]

Just have to scope it now. I think it's going to get some Talley Lows and a VX3 4.5-14x40.

Sorry about your shooting arm. I had three discs replaced in my neck and have to stop shooting my Whelen, a real favorite too. Congrats on two new toys to play with!