Running a T3x 270 WSM currently and following my next Moose hunt, I may want to rebarrel to a .264" bore for Deer.

What is my best option, 264WM, 6.5 RM, or some wildcat..?

6.5 PRC

6.5 WSM or PRC seem like great options.

I've been in SoCal, small living off the grid for the last couple of years with only occasional internet access once and awhile if going to the Library in
town..........

So, I had to Google this new 6.5 PRC in order to understand your suggestion....now I understand.




THAT is a Very interesting development.
I'm sure it's not for everbody. The other existing 6.5's are getting it done both in the field and on the range.

But......., for a guy wanting a legit SAAMI'd 6.5 cartridge short action solution on a .532" bolt it ain't got many competitors.

It's early days on the various PRC's being talked about on the INet IMO....but if you are in a hurry there is a guy in Dayton Texas named Sisk, a friend of Mule Deer's, that has been doing 6.5 WSM's for several years and is who I would look at1st....but then he is less than 3 hours from me too.
Although the PRC does have it's definitive upsides though ....IF everything comes together on a "Creedmore" scale as is being trumpeted around the 'net as the latest greatest better than sliced bread shooter. I grew up reading the same thing about the 243 in the early/mid 1950's too BTDT.
Ron

Charlie lives in Kentucky now....

I read your post 3 times and still don't understand it? You recommend a 6.5 wsm it seems. Don't know where Charlie Sisk lives. Can't tell what your point is on the PRC. Cant spell creedmoor. Have no idea how the 243 from the 50's has anything to do with.....well anything?

Seems to be a personal preference for sure. 270 WSM is an awesome short mag that hits a sweet spot for small, medium and large game use. 6mm and 6.5mm chambers seems to be the rage these days with the creedmoor leading the way and now the PRC. Funny thing is the more things seem to progress, the more they really have not. The 6.5mm Rem Mag was ingenious in 1966, just promoted extremely bad. Had Remington utilized a 24-inch barrel and faster twist it may have been quite a success. The cartridge case dimensions are well thought out, however the Remington SA at 2.8" COL was not quite sufficient to get the most out of 120, 130 and 140 grain projectiles. Now the WSM is a whole different story with action being in the 3.0"+ length range. Here you can make the old 6.5 Rem Mag do things no one ever really has. It would be easy to throat properly to seat out another .05"- .10" or so and easily exceed 3,000 fps with a 140 grain load and come real close to 264 Win Mag ballistics on a SA. In fact if done right it will out perform the 6.5 PRC, if you can get past the belt thing (chuckle). In many ways perhaps the best 6.5mm wildcat chamber is the 6.5-06 with no fuss no muss. It can be built to light rifle specifications and stay close to the 6.5mm Rem Mag and 264 Win Mag for performance. Problem is the 270 Win does the same thing and is found everywhere in great abundance. Have fun with your project as all these cartridges can achieve great accuracy and all will perform roughly the same on game at 400 yards.

And what of the, now headstamped brass, 6.5 SAUM..?

Pros/cons: 6.5 PRC vs. 6.5 SAUM .?

If these are viable, I'd prefer to have SAAMI'd and stamped Brass.

I have always liked the SAUM design over the WSM design. But because it holds a few grains less powder than the WSM and again not supported worth a darn by big green it suffered greatly. 6.5mm SAUM or 6.5mm WSM are for the most part going to duplicate the 6.5 Win Mag on a SA given equal barrel lengths. None will perform any better than the other in the field and none will give much advantage over the 6.5mm PRC or 6.5mm Rem Mag. I have to be honest one could not hit a better sweet spot than the 7mm RSAUM, set up right that is about as fine a mountain rifle chamber as you can tote. Only one man's opinion.

.264 Win mag.

Perhaps you might share your thoughts on that right there..?

Figured since I was here I'd bump these questions back up.

Factory cartridge,stamped brass,plenty of loading info for it and there's not a deer in Maui that's going to notice the difference between it and the other cartridges that the others have mentioned.

6.5 Allen Magnum
Or
6.5 Prometheus

What are you wanting to accomplish that you can't make happen with the 270, and that you believe stepping down to a 6.5 will be such a big improvement?

Thank you Ken...always have had a thing for the 264 WM, but have never owned one. I'm working here for a bit, then returning back to the mainland...wouldn't mind helping with the Axis Deer issue before I leave.


Boogaloo, I wanna fling light .264" bullets of the TTSX, NPT, NAB, SSII, and SAF design at enough poop to make it a legit step up from my 6.5x55.
The B.C.'s are there, and if I can utilize that .532" bolt face for flinging those lighter than comparable B.C. 270 bullets then I concider it a plus. and the slightly reduced recoil may lend itself also.

Years ago I figured "...if I ever have to start over I would build 2 rifles, a 264 SAUM and a 338 SAUM..."
Always thought that case was the best fit out of the short fats.

Kaleb
Re:.Charley Sisk's shop is in Dayton Texas. He was the 1st guy I heard of, and again later in conjuction with Mule Deer, to make a regular business of building 6.5 WSM rifles & some other fun toys based on the WSM case. I'm sure he can build you a 6.5WSM lots faster than you can get a 6.5 PRC is all I was trying to say.

Re: 243's...I grew up reading all the so called Outdoor rags in the 50's and Warren Page, a noted outdoor & hunting writer of the day on the order of the sainted Jack O'Connor who I still read, shilled the "new" 243 as the best thing for a One Gun Hunter ever made, or "the perfect Woodchuck to White Tail rifle" & ya'll gotta have a 243 or you'll get laughed out of deer camp yadda yadda...and I BELIEVED all that crap since I did not know any better...so my grand pop gave me a SAKO 243 when I wanted to go deer hunting with him for the 1st time and was put off with his pre & post war Savage Lever actions and and pre war M70's ....and I later learned what the 243 WOULD Do and Not Do and had my teenaged Great White Hunter bubble busted by reality, losing more unrecovered deer with a 243 and the factory ammo of the day back then I than I have the rest of my life, now that I am in my mid '70's ...BUT it caused me to learn how to reload, and later spend 13 years in the Firearms Industry as a Rgl Distributor's Rep and later a Gun Importer Factory Rep.

IMO the PRC's are going to have that same kind of "Creedmore" level of publicity "IT"S got 300fps more SPEED" in the coming 12-18 months as the gun mfg'ers NEED to have a shiny new toy to sell about every 2 years or so to stay in business.... witness all the ya'll gotta have winners left over from years gone by like mebbe the Rem 5mm and others you can't buy or reload ammo for anymore yadda yadda. PT Barnum's lines to come to mind here.
Hope this helps you grasp my thoughts with a little more clarity.
Ron

This is Neal Emerys response about the 6.5 PRC to an article on AccurateShooter.com.


Neal Emery says:
October 23, 2017 at 11:38 am

Many of these comments sound just like when the 6.5 Creedmoor was launched. Time will certainly tell. Consider commercial viability in this cartridge launch. We’ve received requests for a faster 6.5 for ELR matches (yes, standard PRS matches are trending to 6mm’s – we’re not arguing that) and for hunting at ranges where the 6.5 CM/260/6.5×55 class cartridges loose steam. Parameters are that it is a short action cartridge and feeds well in a wide variety of rifles. There are new long-action 6.5’s with extreme velocity and the issues that come with them. We’re not trying to be fastest and flattest. This cartridge needs to be reasonably low-recoil & muzzle blast and still have good barrel life. Obviously it is faster than the CM, so it will have somewhat less barrel life than that but can’t be in the 26 Nosler/6.5-300 class. We’re not going to bring back the 6.5 Rem Mag that was spec’d with a 1:9″ twist and nobody wants a belted mag. 264 Win is long action and also 1:9″. The 6.5×284 is a well liked cartridge for hand loaders but with the long 143-147 class bullets is a long-action and there are various chamberings out there from years of wildcatting. Also, rebated rims are not ideal. The SAUM (4S)is a fine cartridge but not one that feeds well in top-loading rifles (we want it to work well in hunting rifles and precision, mag fed rifles), plus that rebated rim. Commercial viability means that not just hand loaders get to have fun – we want something the average Joe can purchase ammo for as well with those long, heavy bullets. For those complaining about velocity, remember that our published velocities are based on 24″ test barrels. Our 143 & 147gr Creedmoor published velocities are 2,700 & 2,695 fps respectively. Of course people with longer barrels and hand loaders are exceeding 2,800 fps. The PRC factory 24″ velocities are 2,960 & 2,910 – Longer barrels and or hand loading to well over 3,000 fps is already happening. In short, it was far better to build a cartridge from the ground up, that’s made from the start to seat-out and stabilize long, heavy bullets, than to put out ammo in an existing cartridge that either didn’t function and feed in a wide variety of rifles, or won’t work well because existing rifles don’t have a fast enough twist barrel.


There's not one in my future I don't shoot long range matches so my 6.5-06 fills my needs. But if I was going to take a chance on a new cartridge I'd have a lot more faith in future component availability if it came from Hornady or Nosler compared to Remington or Winchester.

I probably would have said it nicer but I am thinking this too...

but if you must go 6.5.... 26Nosler is the way!!!

Everything good about the Win Mag but no belt, and 100-200 more fps.

true barrel life is short, but it seems you are good with getting them rebarrelled...

I tend to agree with this assessment. The only problem I have is that the cartridge....indeed all the SAUMs....are essentially commercial failures with waning interest and little to no factory support. While it’s not a huge problem for a handloader, I still give factory support a fair amount of consideration before jumping in with a new hunting cartridge.

One of my hopes for the new 6.5 PRC is that it gains enough steam for Hornady to do a spinoff or two, one of which could be a neck-up to 7mm. If you could get me up close to 2900 FPS with 160-class 7mm bullets out of a short action with right at or perhaps a bit less than 20 ft lbs of recoil, I’d give it a good look. Give me factory ammo offerings of the quantity, quality and price of 6.5 Creedmoor ammo, and I’m all in.

I’d imagine I wouldn’t be the only one.

The other spinoff being .323 or (especially) .338 wouldn’t bother me, either.

I may be missing something here but I recall the donor action being a WSM length. You can forget about building a 264 Win Mag or 26 Nosler on a WSM length action as both cartridges are 3.34" COL and require a 3.4" action on a .532" bolt face, especially playing with throats and seating long 6.5mm projectiles. Typical WSM actions are based on lengths of 3.0" - 3.05". If this is the case you will be held to only SA solutions. The 6.5-284 Norma due to 6.5mm bullets (3.28" COL) requires a standard long action at 3.4". If I have overlooked something on your donor action, please disregard comment.

I'm not sure that you'll see any difference at all. I'd spend the rebarrel budget on 270 WSM ammo.


The donor rifle is a WSM, but it's a Tikka, so it's definitely long enough for 3.34" cartridges.


Okie John

OK didn't realize Tikka built their WSM chambers at 3.4" lengths unlike Winchester, Browning, etc. Can't really see the benefit as the WSM basis is attracting SA high power magnums that are somewhat lighter and many carry 22" barrels. In that case I wouldn't waste my time with any SA cartridge, seems to defeat the whole purpose of having one over the other, for hunting anyway.

The Tikka T3/T3x's are built on one action length, bolt stop, and choice of magazine and bolt stop determine cartridge lengths...sorta a "one size fits all" kind of modular thing.

Kinda like the HVA.

DF

It's not the chambers, it's the action length.


Okie John

Oh but you could spin a fast twist barrel on it and seat the bullet waaay out there.
There’s advantages.

Sorry meant to convey in that post "WSM chamber on 3.4" action". My point is building a 2.86 " COL on a 3.4" action seems like a waste and defeats the entire WSM or SAUM angle. Not to say it can't be done, just don't see why you would want to unless you specialize the throat and seat bullets out excessively longer than the standard COL.

Tikka does it because it’s cheaper than tooling up for different actions/ stocks etc...

You might want to go WSM or equivalent in this case because of some other reason. If you are looking for pure horsepower, Midget magnums barely keep up with their parent clones and can’t hang with the Weatherby/ Nosler chamberings.

Waste of an entire half-inch? Egad! The thought of an M70 .22 Hornet must have you waking up at night screaming.

Seriously, they've been stuffing short rounds in standard actions for decades. No big deal. A few gazillion Tikka-ites would dispute that there's a loss of accuracy associated with the practice, along with another gazillion who shoot .223s in short acions.

Note my recommendations for hot rods.

This is actually a situation wherein I'd prefer to keep capacity down as well as recoil while utilizing that T3's .532" bolt face.
Not that the 264 WM is brutal to shoot, but I'd prefer to work with beltless cases, it does qualify as a SAAMI'D cartridge though and that gives it serious points when traveling.

The interesting 6.5 PRC perhaps MIGHT fit in the SA Tikka magazine, especially with the little 100-140gr stuff I want to shoot, but factory ammo MIGHT require going to a LA set up in the Tikka. It is a SAAMI'd cartridge and that is a plus. I think time will reviel more to us concerning this number.


Though too....the greatly designed SAUM case currently comes with proper headstamp 6.5 SAUM, so that addresses the travel issue. And in the SA, its the best fitting out of everything. For me, case capacity is about perfect.


Those 3 have my attention.

Interesting. How's he rate Moonlight to TX bbq?

Darrik...Re: "Charlie lives in Blue Grass Country now..." thanks, thats GTK., never did get to go see him when I was wetting my britches years ago to do a 6.5 WSM on a NH M70 300WSM Classic Fwt that needed some 'smith help to begin with...and wanted to kill 2 birds with one CC charge.
Ron

It is looking like there are 3 Headstamped 0ptions:

1) 6.5 PRC (waiting to see where this goes..it's early yet)
2) 6.5 SAUM (the best fit for SA magazine length, and it's properly stamped to boot)
3) 264 Win Mag


Thoughts.?

You're #1 has factory ammo and properly stamped brass too!

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/3...unition-65-prc-143-grain-eld-x-box-of-20

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...ion-65-prc-147-grain-eld-match-box-of-20

I know, pointer. It's a Very viable canidate.!

I don't have my rifle over here (doing a job on Maui...could be worse), so I am unable to check the OAL of that Tikka Magazine (maybe someone could get me that measurment.?). The 6.5 PRC seems like it might be a little long for a true 2.80" SA magazine. That's an easy fix in ths Tikka though.

Go 6.5 PRC, buy a LA magazine and shorten the bolt stop on a Tikka. "Hunters" don't get it, "shooters" do- the 6.5 PRC will have the most support of any 6.5mm larger than the Creedmoor.

Well, perhaps, but the lowley Swede is a tad "bigger" and I believe it's done a fairly good job of "supporting" itself...the 264 Win Mag ain't done too badly either....but in time, your guess might prove to become true.

In a way, I understand the con ept of ths 6.5 PRC. But I am a little confused about one aspect, is it intended to be a "too long" for true Short Actions, or was it designed to be the shortest Long Action cartridge known to man..?

Maybe it's my "Hunter" mentality, but mean, if ya got to go LA, then what advantage would the 6.5 PRC have over the 264 WM.?

28lx posted the reasons and why for the 6.5 PRC from Neal Emory.


As for why it, over the 264wm- recoil, factory world class ammo, precision. As for action lengths; y'all are pole vaulting over mouse turds. That half inch or less difference between a Tikka and a Remington SA 700 doesn't mean anything and no one would ever notice if they weren't told. I mean how does anyone shoot a 223 in a SA....?

So then, it's a Long Action cartridge..? No. It will actually fit many Short Actions, Winchester being one of them sporting a 3.1+" magazine well.
Like my beloved 284 win, the 257 Roberts, the 6.5 /350 RM and others, it's a "'tweener."

Blocking out a Long Action Magnum magazine in say...the Remington 700 or other makers magnum length actions could be their solution. But a Long Action Magnum action is heavy, adding a block, even heavier...and then there's cost.


When I used to run a 223 Rem, I did it in a little rifle Bill Ruger designed with an action length and magazine designed around the dimentions of said cartridge.
Matter of fact the 223 and its innital platform "I believe" came as a matched set.

And isn't this the story of the 6.5 PRC...the rifle is built around the cadtridge..?


I like the cartridge, and I completely understand the logic.

I also like the others on the list and just want to make good choice
Being the Tikka, I'm unconstrained per COL and I see no reason to limit myself to SA...could actually run them all in a LA magazine.

Part of my problem here is that from childhood I've always admired the 264 WM, so when the 6.5 PRC forces me to run LA, it's a conflict.:)

So is Hornady purposely trying to undermine Remington 2.8" short actions?

My understanding has been that Remington actions and clones were the most popular builds in "short" actions for precision games. Is the PRC designed to make some other action the obvious choice instead?

Naw.... I doubt that was the intent.

Besides, Remington could easily counter. If wildcatters can fit the Waytts Box in the 700, then Rem could configure a box of their own, or.....
Remington could counter and standardise their very own case, and introduce the 6.5 RSAUM, in a SA.:)

The 6.5 PRC fits AI mag constraints. No one is using internal box mags for the PRS.

Just some scuttlebutt, but I’ve heard rumors about PRS guys not loving the Tikka bolt stop. They’re pretty hard on stuff and run them hard/fast. Nothing that a hunter would see in normal use, but it’s a part that needs addressing.

I’m a Tikka fan too, so I’m interested in hearing reports.

The 6.5 PRC will sell a bunch of rifles in 2018....and I hope Tikka is in the game.

Question to the folks "in the know"... Will a 3.000" mag box cover most bullets in a 6.5 PRC ? Factory loadings appear to be in the 2.85" range... Not sure about common COAL's for hand loaders ? Yes, I am aware that how the chamber is throated will affect the COAL.

Most of that is "assumed issues. Not that you can't break a factory one running it really hard, but you'll actually be hard pressed to find someone that it has personally happened to- it's all "I know someone/I heard".. If you do, it's generally because they are running super hot loads and having to rip on the bolt.

We (8-10 dudes) have all switched to Tikkas for comp guns and with easily 100k between us on T3's the only one to have bolt stop problems was running over 2 grains above max and cranking on it. Zero issues in normal/sane use.







Yes. Factory is 2.945 average.

My partner broke the pin on his Tikka bolt stop in the Karstetter team match last year. Really wish someone had been recording video, as the look on his face was priceless while his brain was trying to compute that his bolt was in his hand and not in his rifle. He actually kept his composure quite well and finished the stage without running out of time. We rigged up a makeshift stop with tape and odd objects which worked fine to finish the match.

He WAS running a warm load (I always refer to it as the 260 MAGNUM) but it wasn't sticky. I had heard the new T3x's were coming with a slotted bolt stop (which should be all it takes to fix I think) but haven't verified on one myself. If they don't, Mountain Tactical ought to change up their aftermarket design to incorporate that idea. Also, I know at least a half dozen folks who compete with them, and that is the only failure between them all I'm aware of, but it did leave an impression.

I really like my all Bighorn battery, but wouldn't feel like I was giving up much at all if forced to use Tikka actions only. I prefer them to a good chunk of the customs out there for sure.

All that hammering from ths bolt slamming against the stop is bound to reviel any weakness in design. That there is a robust solution and your testimony of "prefer them over a good chunk of customs" is positively telling.



Been looking over the options suggested here... the 6.5 SAUM s4, the 6.5 PRC, and the 264 Win Mag.

1) The PCR has an average COAL of 2.945" it will require a Long Action set up if run in my T3x. Its just too damn long for a T3 SA..!
2) The SAUM " m i g h t" just barely stuff into my SA T3x as it is with the shorter lightweight hunting bullets, but again it's a bit long in the magazine.
3) The 264 Win. Forced to run a LA set up.by the PRC anyway, and the SAUM really needing 2.9+", this beauty makes the most sense in light of the complications of running them in the SA set up.

I don't think anyone has mentioned the 6.5 Sherman Mag. Perhaps because there is no headstamped brass, but that one fits true SA's.

Thank you !

FWIW, the new M+ mag that ships with the 6.5 Creedmoor’s measured 2.98”ish. That may be an option for the PRC. I only measured one though...

No kidding..!?!?!? THAT is a beautiful thing.! Thanks Shortactionsmoker.

Question though, is it a flush fit or ....?


The other thing, maybe someone can confirm this, but I dont know if the standard magazine fits in the magnum bottom metal, and/or visa versa.

3 round mag. The 5 round they’re making will protrude more...

Are those + mags shipping with the T3 Creed able to be purchased individually?

Thank you.

I believe this is how they'll address the 6.5 PRC...it's a no brainer.


Still asking, will a standart SA mag fit the WSM rifle..?

Not yet. It’s been a huge cluster. The Finn’s didn’t think anybody would want three round mags as an aftermarket part, so they decided to have their mag partner make five round extended mags. They are late getting them produced, so none have shipped over here yet. They’re coming...hopefully soon. I’d expect it to be the first of the year. I also asked Tikka (Beretta) to make the three round magazine as an exclusive for us. I offered a PO for 1000 on the first order. We’ll see what happens. Probably no answer before SHOT.

While I’m at it, I hooked up with a polymer mag manufacturer in the states. I gave them some Tikka 223mags. I told them I’d front the money for the mold and production of a 2.60” 223 mag. I should have some costs and estimates this week. Before I committed to the money, I received verification from Tikka that they had no plans for anything similar in the works, but they would contact their mag partner and see if they’d run them for me as well. So maybe we’ll see some 223mags in the first half of 2018. I want something we can retail for $39 or less.

I know others are working on billet mags, but options don’t hurt.

I’m 99.99999% sure the O.D. Is the same on all mags. I’m at home, don’t have one here and can verify tomorrow. I’m sure somebody else will chime in.

Awesome....

You'd sell out of them all...

Thank you. I had asked a gentleman at Eurooptics, and I don't believe he and I were on the same page when I asked about the matter, so in the confusion I came away unsure reguarding that fact. I too am away from my Tikkas so I am unable to confirm.

I had once wanted to build a wildcat off the 222 mag called the 257 Kimber, the 2.60" mag for the 223 is what I've needed. Very cool.

The new 6.5 Wby looks like a hoot to shoot. Set your zero at 300 and only be 2" high at 100 or 17+ inches low at 500.....
talk about a lazer beam!!