.308 22" vs 18" barrels - 24hourcampfire

Looking at getting a .308 of some kind. Main purpose will be backup/loaner elk rifle and because I have never owned a .308.

I have been looking at the Ruger American Standard (22" barrel) $399 and the RA Predator (18" barrel) $499.

What are the real world differences between the two barrel lengths? I think I read someplace, maybe here on the fire, that you reduce by 50 FPS per inch or something like that. So IF that is true the Predator will shoot the same load about 200 fps slower.
That seems like a lot. Will that elk notice?

I have handled both. I must not be terribly discerning about firearms because when I handle guns at the store I like most of them and they all feel pretty good in my hands. The Predator seems pretty handy with that short little barrel. I don't look at or handle the high end stuff (Sakos, Kimbers and such) for the same reason I don't test drive sports cars... it isn't happing.

Anyway looking for some enlightenment and experience with these two choices? Also considering hitting the pawn shops to see what classics might be available in .308 but concern I might pick up a lemon that way.

For the 308 the loss is typically closer to 25 fps per inch.

My experience with the biggest difference between the two barrel lengths is the amount of noise. I had an 18 1/2" Model 7 in .308 and the concussive muzzle blast was just nasty. Have had a few 22" .308's and the muzzle blast was no worse than any other short action round.

The shorter barrel is much quicker to handle but doesn't "hang" as well, which can be a factor when you're out hunting and the shot might have to be taken when you're not as rested as in a store. Short barrels on rifles have their place but unless you're talking about pistol rounds or maybe a .30-30 I'm definitely a fan of more standard lengths

If you're shooting suppressed, the Predator is a no-brainier, because the barrel is shorter and stiffer and threaded. Add the AICS pattern mags vs. the Ruger rotary mags and you're so far ahead with the Predator that the generic American isn't even in the competition.

I don't think the elk will care..... but I bought a Vanguard in 30-06 during the Wally World big sale last September. It is the first rifle I have owned with a 24 inch barrel. Maybe I am crazy but it seems significantly quieter than my other '06's with 22 inch barrels when I have fired it at game and the time I forgot to put my ears back on when sighting in....it was 90 degrees then and I took them off while waiting on the barrel to cool. Other than that I haven't noticed the two extra inches on the barrel as making the rifle "unhandy".

An 18 inch barrelled .308 must be a loud rascal. If you are gonna use it for a loaner, maybe loan your friend some earplugs with it....or use a can.

I get 2850 with a 155 in a 20" 308 and 2670 in a 16" with the same load...

A buddy of mine hunts with an 18.5 inch .308, I use a 20 inch and a 22 inch.

All deer have been equally dead.

20" here on Rem 700 action

Thanks for the input!

Less difference in speed than I thought. I hadn't really considered the noise and blast. A suppressor is a really interesting idea! More research required...

I'd be fine with an 18" with a supressor, and you can't run fast enough to give me one without. Learned my lesson in 1970.

My 22" guns are only 50-60 fps faster than my 18' Ruger Predator.

Was going to gig you for the typing error. But I make them too JMR. Guess you don't have an 18 foot barrel?

For Colorado hunting in your place I would get the 22" because you guys out there don't climb trees for you deer and elk hunting. We do that here in the Midwest and the 24" on my 7mm RM hit every limb and got hung up with it on a sling over my shoulder pointed up or down. The 18.5" barrel on my .308 was way handier for tree climbing and bullet velocity was never a consideration. That 7mm RM still has that 24", but when I built up a custom 7mm-08 it has a 20" for these parts. I'm more of an in tents hunter these days and a 22" like on my .300 Savage works just fine.

I've got an 18 inch scout, my son has a 16.5 scout both in 308. The velocity difference makes no real difference, but the 16.5 is a lot louder.

Aside from handling and balance it won’t make much difference with 150 gr and 165 gr bullet out to 300 yds or so. Reducing the 308 Win by 4 inches will reduce velocity in a 165 gr bullet by roughly 90-110 fps. Starting a 165 gr from 18” barrel would track a similar speed as starting a 180 gr out of a 22” barrel if that means anything to you. Main thing is impact velocity being around 1,800 fps for good performance. That’s why the 308 Win shines on elk with a Nosler Partition as that bullet works very well at 308 Win speeds. I prefer 22”, but 20” would be a better compromise in lieu of 18” for me. If weight is the issue I’d rather make it up on the stock, mounts and glass.

That 18" barrel will work just fine.

Tried the short barrel .308 thing more than once, I wont go there again.

realised I bought them only because they were a cute novelty.

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Was going to gig you for the typing error. But I make them too JMR. Guess you don't have an 18 foot barrel?

That thing is a PITA to get in the truck

Short = Loud & Loud = No fun to shoot...

try a RA Compac & you'll know what i mean...

22''

My favorite deer rifle this year is a 20" 308 and not bad loud to shoot. Wouldn't go shorter though.

Originally Posted by mathman

For the 308 the loss is typically closer to 25 fps per inch.

that what she said

Split the difference and go 20". That's what my 308 is and it works just fine..

My Remington 660 carbine wears a 20 inch barrel. I had a smith glass bed the barrel channel and lighten the trigger a little. Otherwise, everything is same as the day I bought it. Accuracy and deadly power is quite impressive. This South Dakota muley was taken at approx 225 yards or so. I would not want a longer barrel than 20 inches.

Sherwood

Both of my 307’s are 20” barrels. Not too bad to shoot.

Originally Posted by Windfall

For Colorado hunting in your place I would get the 22" because you guys out there don't climb trees for you deer and elk hunting. We do that here in the Midwest and the 24" on my 7mm RM hit every limb and got hung up with it on a sling over my shoulder pointed up or down. The 18.5" barrel on my .308 was way handier for tree climbing and bullet velocity was never a consideration. That 7mm RM still has that 24", but when I built up a custom 7mm-08 it has a 20" for these parts. I'm more of an in tents hunter these days and a 22" like on my .300 Savage works just fine.

This is my exact reason for getting my 20" built. My browning 7 mag is 24, with boss it's 27. It will hit every limb, and tower stand window known. I have now taken the boss system off and had a custom matching thread protector so it's 24". The .308 on the other hand I wanted it shorter than 24". The little velocity lost by 4" wasn't anything to me. I did however go with a #4 magnum shilen contour so it could be threaded to 5/8×24 with no ill effects or adapters. The gun is not a boat anchor nor is it a mountain rifle. It's a little heaver than my son's 24" .308 sporter. When mounted with my SB 2.5-10x56 Klassik (which is a larger optoc) the rifle combo is very well balanced. As for noise, you would need a decibel meter to tell the difference in my 20" and my sons 24". Both Rem 700's. So as far as being "louder" I'm sure it is, but I can't tell the difference.

Bought a Ruger Scout with 16.1" barrel with the intent to get a suppressor, which hasn't happened yet. Love the way it handles but it is not a rig I'd get for a loaner. Velocity loss is about 170fps compared to a 22" barrel, Remington 150g loads.

This is my 4th .308. If I get another it will be a standard 22" barrel as the other I currently have is 18" (AR10).

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For the 308 the loss is typically closer to 25 fps per inch.

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elocity loss is about 170fps compared to a 22" barrel, Remington 150g loads.

These statements need to be put into perspective. Individual rifles even with the same barrel length can yield VERY different MV. I've seen as much as 130 fps difference from 2 different rifles with the same length barrel shooting ammo from the same box. I've seen a 20" rifle shoot faster than another 22" rifle and match a 24" rifle. Somewhere between 25-50 fps from the same barrel length is common. It might be accurate to say that rifle "A" shoots the same loads 170 fps slower than rifle "B", but not all of that 170 fps can be attributed to the shorter barrel.

The 25fps/inch number is thrown around on the internet a lot, but I've never seen any documentation to support it, even with magnum cartridges. In fact with 308 class cartridges 10-15 fps/inch seems more accurate. There have been lots of tests done where a longish barrel was tested for velocity and velocity measured again as it is cut shorter. Using the same barrel is the only way to get meaningful numbers. With a barrel 20" or longer velocity loss with ANY center fire rifle cartridge is a lot less than we've been told. Especially with anything over 24".

Once you get below 20" velocity does drop off at a greater rate. My 18" 308 doesn't give up much at all to my 22" 308's but that may just be the individual rifle. I've never worked with a 16" rifle, but wouldn't be surprised to see a bigger difference at that length. But with a 308 a 20" barrel isn't a bad place to be.

My son killed his first elk at 10 years old with a 16" 308 at 450 yards... that rifle was a tack driver and had killed many critters... let a friend borrow it and he stuck his suppressor on it... after it was all said and done my barrel was no longer 16" and I didn't want to SBR it... if you're going to go short don't go shorter then 18"... that way if you need it rethreaded it's no problem...

Originally Posted by JMR40

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For the 308 the loss is typically closer to 25 fps per inch.

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elocity loss is about 170fps compared to a 22" barrel, Remington 150g loads.

These statements need to be put into perspective. Individual rifles even with the same barrel length can yield VERY different MV. I've seen as much as 130 fps difference from 2 different rifles with the same length barrel shooting ammo from the same box. I've seen a 20" rifle shoot faster than another 22" rifle and match a 24" rifle. Somewhere between 25-50 fps from the same barrel length is common. It might be accurate to say that rifle "A" shoots the same loads 170 fps slower than rifle "B", but not all of that 170 fps can be attributed to the shorter barrel.

The 25fps/inch number is thrown around on the internet a lot, but I've never seen any documentation to support it, even with magnum cartridges. In fact with 308 class cartridges 10-15 fps/inch seems more accurate. There have been lots of tests done where a longish barrel was tested for velocity and velocity measured again as it is cut shorter. Using the same barrel is the only way to get meaningful numbers. With a barrel 20" or longer velocity loss with ANY center fire rifle cartridge is a lot less than we've been told. Especially with anything over 24".

Once you get below 20" velocity does drop off at a greater rate. My 18" 308 doesn't give up much at all to my 22" 308's but that may just be the individual rifle. I've never worked with a 16" rifle, but wouldn't be surprised to see a bigger difference at that length. But with a 308 a 20" barrel isn't a bad place to be.

Great post. True statement. Every barrel is different for sure. The numbers ive seen, after cutting a barrel down, is closer to 40 fps/inch. But that number isnt the be all end all. Just what ive seen.

i had the ruger predator with 18” barrel. it was a tackdriver. noise and recoil was a bit much for me after 10 rnds or so, so it went down the road. i also have heavy barreled 20” remingtons and a savage. no issues shooting them.

I used my 18.5" .30-06 for elk this year.

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It's really nice with a can, but without it's fairly blasty. My current 20" .308 and the few 18" .308s I've had in the past weren't as loud, but they certainly aren't the quietest option. If you aren't going to suppress (which I assume is the case since it will be a loaner rifle), I'd stay 20" - 22", but if you are, definitely go 18".

Originally Posted by JMR40

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For the 308 the loss is typically closer to 25 fps per inch.

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elocity loss is about 170fps compared to a 22" barrel, Remington 150g loads.

... It might be accurate to say that rifle "A" shoots the same loads 170 fps slower than rifle "B", but not all of that 170 fps can be attributed to the shorter barrel.

Not all, but the majority.

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The 25fps/inch number is thrown around on the internet a lot, but I've never seen any documentation to support it, even with magnum cartridges. In fact with 308 class cartridges 10-15 fps/inch seems more accurate. ...

The difference between my 16.1" barreled Scout and Daughter's 22" is 5.9". A 170fps difference is a 28.8 fps/inch reduction. The difference in the 130g TTSX load we both use is 177fps for 30.0 fps/inch.

Example on one, of course.

Originally Posted by Sherwood

My Remington 660 carbine wears a 20 inch barrel. I had a smith glass bed the barrel channel and lighten the trigger a little. Otherwise, everything is same as the day I bought it. Accuracy and deadly power is quite impressive. This South Dakota muley was taken at approx 225 yards or so. I would not want a longer barrel than 20 inches.

Sherwood

That rifle was the catalyst for the Model 7.
Aussie writer Nick Harvey had a modified version which looked like a dwarf Model 700 when the brass from Remington came out to Australia and saw it. The rifle fascinated them to the point that when they returned to the US, the model 7 was released.

From Charlie Sisk:

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Charlie_Sisk
Campfire Ranger

Reged: 02/21/02
Posts: 1321
Loc: Dayton, Texas Been doing a little more experimenting.........
#88566 - 09/14/02 03:15 PM Edit Reply Quote

For a long time I have wondered about how barrel length affected velocity. I had always been told you need a certain length barrel for certain calibers. I have read when folks compared one gun to another with different lengths but I always thought that was not an apples to apples comparision. So I did a few test myself.
All these were Shilen barrels. I used the same brass through out the whole test. All weighed to with 1 grain. Bullets were tested on the Juenke machine. Powder charges were weighed to .1 grain. The same rest, chronograph, Redding press, primers all from the same lot, bullets for the same box, same lathe, same crowning tool, same cutoff tool, and each rifle done from start to finish on the same day. Ambient temperature was the same because I shoot from inside the shop. I held the rifle the same way on the rest every time. I shot ten rounds first to break in the barrel. Then cleaned with Sweets and fired one fouling shot. Then shot five rounds and took the average. I used a midrange load fron the Nosler book, not too hot but certainly not a reduced load. Here is what I got.

22-250 Hodgdon 380 34 grains Federal GM210M Remington brass 55 grain Ballistic Tip
27 inches 3469 fps
26 3451
25 3425
24 3407
56 fps from highest to lowest

270 Winchester Hodgdon 4350 54 grains Federal GM210M Winchester brass 130 grain Sierra
27 inches 3115 fps
26 3093
25 3071
24 3054
23 3035
22 3027
21 3001
114 fps from highest to lowest

300 Winchester mag Federal GM215M Winchester brass 74 grains of Reloder 22 180 grain Partition
27 inches 3055 fps
26 3031
25 3024
24 3003
23 2984
22 2960
95 fps from highest to lowest

340 Weatherby Federal GM215M 250 grain Sierra
81 grains Reloder 22 Wby brass
27 inches 2837 fps
26 2817
25 2809
24 2791
23 2777
22 2755
21 2731
106 fps from highest to lowest

I think I will do a little more thinking before I recommend a barrel length in the future. What do you folks think ?
Charlie

.338 Winchester & .257 Roberts

Here is the info about the 338 Win and the 257 Roberts.
338 Win mag
Winchester brass
Federal GM215M primers
Reloder 19....73 grains
250 grain Partitions
27 inches.....2806 fps
26 inches.....2787 fps
25 inches.....2761 fps
24 inches.....2743 fps
23 inches.....2716 fps
22 inches.....2697 fps
21 inches.....2676 fps
20 inches.....2656 fps
150 fps from 27 inches to 21 inches

257 Roberts
Federal GM210M primers
Remington brass
H-4350....45 grains
120 grain Partitions
27 inches.....2860 fps
26 inches.....2834 fps
26 inches.....2815 fps
25 inches.....2815 fps
24 inches.....2798 fps
23 inches.....2775 fps
22 inches.....2760 fps
21 inches.....2739 fps
20 inches.....2717 fps
143 fps from 27 inches to 20 inches

I want to test this on the next 450 Marlin I build and on a 222 Remington. If I get the same results with those, in my mind the test is over. I think this will be enough data to support the findings. Are there any folks out there who have a degree in this sort of thing ? Maybe explain how many data points would be needed to be able to say this would work with the majority of calibers ? Someone with experience in statistical (spell check) quality control?
Charlie

--------------------
Sisk Rifles
400 County Road 2340
Dayton, Tx 77535
www.siskguns.com
charliesiskguns.com
1-936-258-4984

The data and opinions contained in these posts are the results of experiences with my equipment, componentry, and testing methodology ONLY. As your equipment, componentry, and methodology is different, NO CONCLUSIONS SHOULD BE DRAWN FROM ANY DATA PRESENTED, nor should any data presented form the basis for any load development. DO NOT, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, ATTEMPT TO REPLICATE THESE RESULTS, as doing so could be extremely dangerous.

I am surprised at Charlie's test. I thought there would have been a bigger difference in fps.

Originally Posted by RJY66

I don't think the elk will care..... but I bought a Vanguard in 30-06 during the Wally World big sale last September. It is the first rifle I have owned with a 24 inch barrel. Maybe I am crazy but it seems significantly quieter than my other '06's with 22 inch barrels when I have fired it at game and the time I forgot to put my ears back on when sighting in....it was 90 degrees then and I took them off while waiting on the barrel to cool. Other than that I haven't noticed the two extra inches on the barrel as making the rifle "unhandy".

An 18 inch barrelled .308 must be a loud rascal. If you are gonna use it for a loaner, maybe loan your friend some earplugs with it....or use a can.

I shot a Doe yesterday with my Weatherby VG 243 with the 24" barrel. First time I have shot it without ear protection. As soon as I pulled the trigger my first thought was actually "wow, that wasn't loud at all."

On the other hand I also have the Remington 600 Mohawk 243 with the 18 1/2" barrel. That thing is brutal without "ears" on.

my- 8 mm-- 20"
35 W -- 18"
7-08 -- 20 "
.308 -- 18"
.308 -- 18" Depends where you hunt. Here in the N.E. Ideal --- Nothing wrong with 22" ----- FPS loss per inch vol. ---- means nothing at 50 yards. . People say a rifle with a 18" tube doesn't balance well---- What ???? ---- Noise to loud ? I don't remember really hearing the shot go off myself. Ear protection on the bench. Hunting with shots out there 300+ yards I'd might stick with the 22" but that's me.

I always hear the shot go off while hunting.

I have chrono'd 13 different 308's over the years. I consider the 308 an "efficient" cartridge in that bbl length seems to make less difference than many other cartridges. When I began to notice this, I put all the velocity data together and the average velocity difference was 18 fps per inch of bbl.

As noted, different rifles can produce significantly different velocities with the same load, even with same bbl lengths.

Most cartridges I have chrono'd with different bbl lengths, shorter than 20" produces more velocity loss per inch than say, 22" to 20".

Shorter bbls are LOUDER. Shorter than 22" seems to produce noticeably louder muzzle blast. Which is why I avoid the "youth" rifles in shorter bbls for kids. My experience is kids are quicker to associate muzzle blast with recoil. For hunting without ear protection I won't use shorter than 22" anymore. If stand hunting where one can wear ear protection that may be different.

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I have been looking at the Ruger American Standard (22" barrel) $399 and the RA Predator (18" barrel) $49

Nothing to do with barrel length but the RAR doesn't have a bolt lock. As you carry it, the bolt will sometimes rub against clothing or a pack strap and it will lift. If it lifts to the top, it will slide backwards, completely open.

I wish Ruger would make 16-in. American SS Ranch Compacts in .308 and 6.5 Creed that take Magpul AR-10 pattern mags.

Until they do, I’m gonna whack my .5 MOA 700 to 16.1-in. & thread. I’m not getting rid of my 22–in. threaded Montana anytime soon JIC I get to go elk hunting again.

Seventy-five yards is a long poke in my swampy hunting AO; my longest shot at a deer thus far has been 350 and a snubby .308 will handle that w aplomb.

I will do a thread about this w more detail after hunting season and begin the process.

In the meantime, I urge everyone to use electronic ear pro in the field and range. Every shot you take does irreversible damage to your hearing.

Originally Posted by ColdCase1984

In the meantime, I urge everyone to use electronic ear pro in the field and range. Every shot you take does irreversible damage to your hearing.

I'm a guessing you are right Cold Case about that single loud blast can do hearing damage ---- 18" tubes are ,I guess loud to young undamaged ears. At almost 70 and thousands and thousands of 7.62 and .50 cal fired at age 22 don't mean nothing GI. Except for the crickets and peepers I hear chirping full time or is that a steam kettle I hear ? --- Web

Originally Posted by alpinecrick

I have chrono'd 13 different 308's over the years. I consider the 308 an "efficient" cartridge in that bbl length seems to make less difference than many other cartridges. When I began to notice this, I put all the velocity data together and the average velocity difference was 18 fps per inch of bbl.

As noted, different rifles can produce significantly different velocities with the same load, even with same bbl lengths.

Most cartridges I have chrono'd with different bbl lengths, shorter than 20" produces more velocity loss per inch than say, 22" to 20".

Shorter bbls are LOUDER. Shorter than 22" seems to produce noticeably louder muzzle blast. Which is why I avoid the "youth" rifles in shorter bbls for kids. My experience is kids are quicker to associate muzzle blast with recoil. For hunting without ear protection I won't use shorter than 22" anymore. If stand hunting where one can wear ear protection that may be different.

There are options to make rifles more kid friendly.

[Linked Image]

Originally Posted by wldthg

Originally Posted by ColdCase1984

In the meantime, I urge everyone to use electronic ear pro in the field and range. Every shot you take does irreversible damage to your hearing.

I'm a guessing you are right Cold Case about that single loud blast can do hearing damage ---- 18" tubes are ,I guess loud to young undamaged ears. At almost 70 and thousands and thousands of 7.62 and .50 cal fired at age 22 don't mean nothing GI. Except for the crickets and peepers I hear chirping full time or is that a steam kettle I hear ? --- Web

Originally Posted by wldthg

Originally Posted by ColdCase1984

In the meantime, I urge everyone to use electronic ear pro in the field and range. Every shot you take does irreversible damage to your hearing.

I'm a guessing you are right Cold Case about that single loud blast can do hearing damage ---- 18" tubes are ,I guess loud to young undamaged ears. At almost 70 and thousands and thousands of 7.62 and .50 cal fired at age 22 don't mean nothing GI. Except for the crickets and peepers I hear chirping full time or is that a steam kettle I hear ? --- Web

I almost hear ya! I’m 59 and fired my first shots the week before JFK was skragged.

Amazing I can hear at all after 40 years of unprotected hunting fire, hard rock concerts, SR-71s and U2s on the flight line and LE sirens, it’s a wonder I can hear anything at all!

Muzzle blast from an 18" barrel would be substantial. Hearing protection, at all times, is a must. 22" barrel wouldbe my choice.

I've yet to shoot a 308,that wasn't "loud". I've got 'em from 16.1" to 26".

No matter what the barrel length,it remains a poor chambering.

Hint....................

Originally Posted by ColdCase1984

In the meantime, I urge everyone to use electronic ear pro in the field and range. Every shot you take does irreversible damage to your hearing.

Maybe so, but after 50-odd years, my hearing is still okay, and what damage I have is more likely due to working in a very noisy environment for 40+ years. I plug up for dove hunting, but one or two rifle shots a season isn't going to do much damage. I will carry foam plugs if I take my 4" .357 out and use them if I have time.

Originally Posted by Big Stick

I've yet to shoot a 308,that wasn't "loud". I've got 'em from 16.1" to 26".

No matter what the barrel length,it remains a poor chambering.

Hint....................

Whoa now. You're pickin' on one of my favorite chamberings.

Now that I think about it the 308 Win may just be the best phugging chambering in the world. Phugg everything else.

The 308 is a poor blend of Performance to Recoil ratio.

Very poor...............

No hint........?

On a schitty 308?!? The courtesy is extended and goes without saying...just saying.

Hint.

Laughing!........................

I feel better now.

No doubt.

Hint..............

Originally Posted by Big Stick

The 308 is a poor blend of Performance to Recoil ratio.

Very poor...............

I have a couple 243's too so those bases are covered.