Speaking to the barnes rep at DSC and talking about penetration.
He said that when one of they bullets hits at a faster speed it will mushroom faster and potentially penetrate less as a result. The example he gave was that a 30-06 might penetrate more than the same bullet shot out of a 300 win mag.
Anyone else heard about this - makes me wonder about ideal impact speed for penetration with the Barnes bullets? I've become a JJHACK believer and like the idea of 30 cal and two holes to aid in tracking and blood loss, so want penetration.
Shaking my head.
Just WOW....................
I think that is certainly true with a cup and core, not so much with the Barnes. Optimal velocity......let’s just say 2000 + fps. memtb
1900 and 1700 for the LRX is what they have said.
Sounds like he was confusing lead core performance.
Not to confuse minimal impact with "Ideal impact"
Becareful, who you pick as your expert.
It just could be an opinion of one.
3200 and faster increases tissue damage quite a bit but no reduction in penetration with the ttsx.
What do you think of the hypotheses - that higher speed might lead to lower penetration due to early mushrooming?
This actually came up because I was asking about penetration of a 250 TTSX going 2720 out of a .375 H&H. I did not feel I got as much penetration as I expected with that load.
Try shooting Nosler Partition bullets. They work just fine in this caliber. (If) your not happy with your TTSX
Myself, I could use the above two choices or some other stuff. You need to have confidence in your equipment.
Wish you the best.
I did not feel I got as much penetration as I expected with that load.
Wierd things happen.
I saw an X bullet stopped against a vertebrae on a large buck a buddy shot. Cartridge was a 7 STW.
As fast as I can get them going. Never stopped one at 3400 fps mv in a 150 gr 30 cal on close shots.
I have never stopped one in a deer yet and I have run them through deer from ~1600 FPS to >3600 FPS impact speeds.
Every single one of them showed good evidence of expansion and produced good wound channels. I did see where one separated at least one petal.
As far as ideal impact speed...With a TSX/TTSX the only assumption I can make based on more than 100 animals is that they are going to go through and exit. I did see one TTSX that was stopped in a large deer with a corner to corner shot and it performed perfectly and was an ad copy perfect mushroom on recovery. I have seen them go through ungodly amounts of bone and still exit. I have shot them out of a few guns that can push them over 3500 FPS and for my money there is no such thing as too fast. A little 80 grain TTSX out of a 243 at >3400 FPS will go through 3 feet of deer, so the only way I can look at them is stopping one in an animal is a pretty rare exception.
Edited to add: If you don't get enough penetration with a Barmes, your options to get more penetration are more or less limited to FMJs and solids.
Edited to add: If you don't get enough penetration with a Barmes, your options to get more penetration are more or less limited to FMJs and solids.
^ This! ^ memtb
I have never stopped one in a deer yet and I have run them through deer from ~1600 FPS to >3600 FPS impact speeds.
Every single one of them showed good evidence of expansion and produced good wound channels. I did see where one separated at least one petal.
As far as ideal impact speed...With a TSX/TTSX the only assumption I can make based on more than 100 animals is that they are going to go through and exit. I did see one TTSX that was stopped in a large deer with a corner to corner shot and it performed perfectly and was an ad copy perfect mushroom on recovery. I have seen them go through ungodly amounts of bone and still exit. I have shot them out of a few guns that can push them over 3500 FPS and for my money there is no such thing as too fast. A little 80 grain TTSX out of a 243 at >3400 FPS will go through 3 feet of deer, so the only way I can look at them is stopping one in an animal is a pretty rare exception.
Edited to add: If you don't get enough penetration with a Barmes, your options to get more penetration are more or less limited to FMJs and solids.
Or maybe jump up a weight in the TSX/TTSX line if your really worried about penetration, but for me I shoot them a weight lighter than I would choose a NP for the same application and they just go through.
My limited experience from the last 25 years is that nothing out penetrates a Barnes except solids. Barnes typically open up to a lesser frontal area so encounter less resistance. They are also less dense than C&C bullets and the shank seems to keep them going in a straighter direction. With really high velocities of greater than 3000fps IMPACT velocities I have seen them shed the petals and they sure as hell penetrated. If you were disappointed in the performance of Barnes on Buffalo I suggest more velocity or go up to the 300's You definitely don't want to slow them down.
Light speed.
Hmmmm . . . Warp 1? I was thinking more like Warp 2 as optimal
Hmmmm . . . Warp 1? I was thinking more like Warp 2 as optimal
Well that’s just unrealistic.
Hmmmm . . . Warp 1? I was thinking more like Warp 2 as optimal
The hell with light speed. Go straight to Ludicrous speed!
X's love speed and that's their AO.
Hint.................
I have shot deer with a 7 stw with the 140 Ttsx MV at 3500+400-500 yds. Some ran 100 yards and they were hit good, but some bucks are hard to put down in rut. I never had this same issue with the 140g Nosler combined Tec bullet or the 168g Berger vld Hunting, yet.. The 7 stw shoots the 120g ttsx at 3850, bug holes abound. 500 yards, deer have never taken a step, yet. When ever I am shooting ttxs, I shoot through shoulders if at possible. 500 yards is a poke for where we hunt. We planted a food plot on a power line, set the stand up for 500 yard shots only, limit is 12 per year.
We have never had a ttsx fail to expand on deer, but I don't think that they put the shock on an animal like cup and core bullets, at least in the way they react.
Brother built a 7 STW, twisted and throated for a 140g ttsx, 3700 fps with bug hole groups. He has never shot more than one shot on a deer, near and far. He shot a 380 lb buck in Kansas at 580 yards, and it folded up like a dish rag, broke a left front shouler and exited the right hip
I have a 338 WM and shoot the 165g ttsx at 3200, makes a mess of everything, deer wise..
Shot my Cape Buffalo with a 375HH with 270 gr. tsx's started at 2800fps. Worked great.
I vote for Ludicrous speed. I use 100 grainers out of my 6.5x47L on deer and haven't had one stop in the critter yet out of 20 or so. I use the 145 LRX in my 7mm rem mag for elk and have put six of them through both shoulders of mature bulls & haven't had one stop yet. I don't see penetration as being a problem unless you're trying to shoot through three animals with one shot.
After inconsistent results with the old X bullets I could never bring myself to use the TSX on game, even though they were very accurate in the rifles I tried them in. When the tipped MRX came out I gave them a try, then TTSX and LRX. Results have been very consistent - evidence of rapid expansion with 100% exits. This includes driving TTSX front-to-back through two different mule deer, Bullets have ranged from 100g to 180g, .257 Roberts to .300WM, MV from 2792 to 3233fps, ranges from 25 to 400 yards.
About half the animals went straight down with MRX, TTSX and LRX, some took a few steps, none have gone more than a few yards.
Couldn't say what the "ideal" impact speed is other than it undoubtedly varies by caliber, weight and amount of flesh and bone encountered. Good luck coming up with a specific number. I plan on 2200fps minimum but think they probably will expand at 2000 or less, especially the LRX.
Not sure about ideal impact speed, but I can say they seem to work excellent on whitetails from 2,500 fps to 3,100 fps. I have killed a few that estimated impact speed were down around 2100-2200, and they killed just fine, but did not bleed as much as I like. The 3 that I recovered (all were straight on chest shots, recovered in the hind quarters), did not mushroom as much as I would like to see. I have and will continue to use them.
My experience has been primarily with 80 gr .243 (10 kills) and 120 gr 7mm-08 (30+ kills). I continue to be impressed with the 80 gr version my daughter is shooting, and it makes me wonder why I need anything larger.....
When ever I am shooting ttxs, I shoot through shoulders if at possible. .
+1 on this.
140g ttsx, 3700 fps with bug hole groups. .
Well damn.....I can't imagine that any critter on earth would go very far with this combo......
2k minimum impact ......my preference.
Speaking with two Barnes employees, was told that: (1) the only difference between TTSX and LRX bullets is in bullet profile - there is no difference in construction properties, so terminal ballistics are virtually identical, all else being equal. Also, (2) that the minimum, reliable-expansion impact velocity across caliber sizes from 257 to 338, is 1900fps, maybe 100fps more for the TSX (non-tipped). And (3) as more emphasis is being placed on longer range proficiency, the marketing types have been fudging the minimums down to 1600-1700 fps but in their words that was total "bull-sh_t".
My experience is that not only do you need velocity but also some solid resistance to initiate the expansion process. Shot small deer with complete pass-through's and very little difference between the "in" and "out" holes. Shooting heavier deer same ranges, etc. produced much better exit wounds with more massive blood loss. My opinion is that lighter and faster is much, much better than heavier and slower when choosing monolithic bullets.
Not putting the TSX/TTSX/LRX bullets down as I doubt if any of us would be shooting monolithic bullets were it not for Barnes; I just think it's been 'over-sold' - to a degree - as having a much broader 'effective'velocity range than actual real results.
Speaking only of terminal ballistics, if you want a bullet that does perform adequately across a broader range, the long range Accubond has a minimum effective velocity of 1300fps, while all the other Nosler hunting bullets need at least 1800fps. And as far as I know, there aren't any maximum velocity limits on either Barnes or Nosler hunting bullets.
YMMV
2k minimum impact ......my preference.
2200 fps is what I calculate with so far.
Speaking to the barnes rep at DSC and talking about penetration.
He said that when one of they bullets hits at a faster speed it will mushroom faster and potentially penetrate less as a result. The example he gave was that a 30-06 might penetrate more than the same bullet shot out of a 300 win mag.
Anyone else heard about this - makes me wonder about ideal impact speed for penetration with the Barnes bullets? I've become a JJHACK believer and like the idea of 30 cal and two holes to aid in tracking and blood loss, so want penetration.
I was thinking has anyone not heard of this.
The 300 mag might only go through 3 moose where the 3006 in this case will go through 4 moose. Unless the bullet goes so fast that it sheds its petals then it will go through 5 moose. Kidding aside Barnes X bullets penetrate like crazy and if you want more penetration in a given case then go up in weight.
For my 308 I loaded 165 X bullets And in 300 win mags I loaded 200 grain X bullets. I did not find the 308 to out penetrate the 300 Win in this case.
Scroll down, you’ll find some data on penetration vs. velocity. In a nutshell, higher velocity does not equal greater penetration. Though with higher quality bullets the difference is very little.
The only 160 TTSX I recovered was a shot of maybe 50yds on a waterbuck. It opened very wide and was under the offside hide. Internals were soup.
https://rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/methods.html