So I have to shoot lead free for predator calling here in CA (any hunting). I have been working with 80grn Barnes TTSX in my 25-06's. I have a Weatherby Vanguard S2 and a Remington 700 CDL. Recently I developed two loads that shot half inch in my 700.....61.5 of H4831 and 49.0 of Varget (3,600fps). The loads for my Weatherby, both half inch..... 55.5 of RL17 for 80grn TTSX and 54.5 of RL22 with 100grn TTSX. Yesterday I was on around shot 36 since my last bore cleaning when my 700 groups went to an inch with a different POI, the next group was 2 inches.

My Weatherby seems to open up quicker around 20 shots. It should be noted that the 36 shots were done in two different range trips, I usually only shoot about 15-18 shots in a session (Barnes are pricey), I let the rifle cool completely in between the 3 shot groups. I have never used a copper specific cleaner on these bores, only Eds red and Hoppes 9. I called Barnes and the guy seemed to confirm what I was thinking, that 3,600fps is fouling the bore rather quickly, he recommended Sweets 7.62. It isn't a big deal, these rifles are not for target shooting so I don't mind cleaning them every 20-30 shots. Has anyone else noticed this with high velocity shooting of these bullets?

Side note- All action screws, scope bases/rings are confirmed to be torqued correctly.

I shoot a lot of the TTSX's in my 7 MM RSAUM and the old X bullet in my 257 Roberts. Copper fouling is an issue with the Barnes bullets, but not as bad as the older versions. I don't have anything that shoots to the same velocity as you, but I do notice copper fouling affects the accuracy after a certain number of rounds. I'm not sure what that round count is. When I start to see the accuracy change I clean them thoroughly. I used the Barnes CR-10 for copper removal for a long time and then went to the Sweet's 7.62. I learned on this forum that the 7.62 is water based and can't be left in the barrel over night. Therefore, i have gone to the Montana Extreme Copper Killer since it is oil based and can be left over night.

Thanks for the reply/info. Yeah I have some Sweets coming tomorrow. I quickly learned that 5 minutes is the max you want it to be in the bore.

For copper fouling i have found nothing better than Wipe-Out 👍........Good luck...Hb

Copy that.

Good stuff.

I'm now using Patch Out, the non aerosol version of Wipe Out. I found the aerosol version to be more trouble and messy.

Patch Out is as good and less trouble.

And, unlike Sweets and some harsh cleaners, you can let Patch Out soak for a while without worrying about bore damage from ammonia...

DF

Agree on the Wipe-Out

However, three Nula rifles foul little with Barnes and clean up
quickly. 100rounds plus being normal before cleaning and even then accuracy still is good.

Same with a Douglas rebarreled Montana.

Addition. A Bartlein barrel is much the same.

Dyna Bore Coat helps...

DF

Thank you guys for the replies/info. I just checked my Weatherby and Remmy.........they are indeed fouled. Lots of copper in the rifling in the last two inches of the muzzle.

This^^^

Squirt it in the bore, let it sit overnight and swab it out in the morning. Done.

I shoot a lot of barnes TTSX's but they're all in rifles with custom barrels which foul very little. As said, the TTSX's don't foul nearly as much as the old X bullets but I can see in a rough factory barrel that might be an issue. In any case, just get some wipe-out and leave the sweets on the shelf.

Wipe-out is not messy at all if you use it right.

My Sweets stays on the shelf, good place for it.

I use Patch Out more than Wipe Out. Both work very well.

I use DBC, so don't get heavy fouling. If I did, would probably use Wipe Out and let it soak for a good while.

As is, Patch Out is about all I need. DBC treated bores clean up really well and don't foul that bad.

DF

It's crazy how DBC treated barrels clean so much easier! I'm sold on it.

Razorhog

Wipe out is your friend. I don't have anything that matches your velocity but have found a little polishing (I have used Tubbs Final Finish) helps a lot on the fouling. I generally get 50 or more rounds before accuracy starts degrading.

I “lap” the bores of all of our rifles....except my match grade barrel. During the early ‘90’s, I had a friend that was trying the original X- Bullet. His barrel fouled horribly, and groups were non- existent! I convinced him to lap (polish ) his rifle. It reduced the fouling and groups improved. It’s no where near a bench rest gun, but a decent hunting rifle. A rough bore magnifies the tendency of the Barnes Bullets to foul. My match grade ( polished) can Shot many Barnes Bullets with no significant drop-off of accuracy! memtb

I used to use the Birchwood Casey spray foam copy of Wipe Out. Two weeks ago I switched over to Patch Out and like it so far. For lighter work, I have a little Montana Extreme left.

Montana Extreme is very good.

With DBC, I don’t need that much cleaning power. It’s probably one of the strongest copper cleaners other than those ammonia products.

Patch Out is my current go to cleaner.

As a Loony, I reserve the right to change my mind.

DF

Lots of good info, thanks.

I discovered the concept of copper fouling when I started using X-Bullets 30 years ago.......

Current copper bullets don't foul as badly as the X-Bullets, but they still copper foul quicker than jacketed bullets--at least in my guns.

I use Patch Out or Montana Extreme--they are about the same in time and effort. Sometimes use the accelerator with the Patch Out, but don't really see much difference in time required to get the bore clean.

As an aside, a couple/few years ago I talked to the owner of Wipe Out on the phone (cannot remember his name). Great to talk to. He said when it comes time to test his solvents, he almost always includes 243's, "one of the foulingest cartridges out there" with mono bullets.

I have always had copper fouling with the Barnes bullets. More so with the old originals. Worst was a Sako Finnbear in 6.5X55. Any good copper killer normally works well, the old #9 not so much. The newer ones are much better. I'm a luddite, and clean ever rifle after it is shot, so don't really know when they "foul out" I have gone as far as 20 in a single range trip and noticed no real difference.

Thank you everyone who responded. Seems like we are always learning something new. These bullets, in these bores, at these velocity's are certainly fouling quick.

I switch to Wipeout awhile back. Good stuff

What’s DBC? Sorry for the ignorant question

I just used sweets 7.62, I can't believe how much copper (blue) came out on the patches.

I use Barnes bullets in .270, 7mm, and .30 caliber cartridges. I can't see that they foul any more or less than other bullets. Patch Out w/ accelerator is the best solvent I've found for copper removal, but I first apply Hoppe's, TM, or some other solvent and scrub with a bronze brush before an application of Patch Out.

Dyna Bore Coat.

DF

I occasionally load a bunch of 168 TTSX's for my 06' and go to the range. They are a great bullet, even though they aren't my favorite.
In my barrel, after about 30 rounds, shooting no more that three at a time, and letting things cool down, the groups start to open up. (copper building up)

In cleaning out the copper fouling, I use Bore Tech Eliminator.
I tested it years ago by first using CR-10 and/or Sweets until I didn't get any more blue/green on the patches, and then used Eliminator... The eliminator found and cleaned out more copper that the CR-10 and Sweets didn't seem to "find".

I have heard nothing but great reports on wipe out, but don't use it since the Eliminator is doing the trick for me.

Good hunting, and good luck!

I see many folks suggesting various brands of bore cleaners/solvents.....all well and good. Why not address the cause of problem, rather than “close the door once the horse has left the barn”! A nice smooth, polished bore “will” substantially reduce copper fouling....and perhaps improve the firearms accuracy potential! memtb

KG1 run patches thru until clean


KG3 flush out remnants of KG1

KG12 --best copper remover on the planet ...use nylon brushes 20 strokes


KG3--flush out remnants of KG12

KG4--some of the best bore lubricant made

Barnes, Sweets are Caca de la Vaca. Use only if you hate your rifle

Sometimes that works and sometimes it attracts even more carbon. Bore Coat might be fine but I am not going to even attempt putting it in a pristine bore.

I’m not advocating “coating” the bore.....”polish” the bore with a “VERY” mild abrasive ( a bit courser than “jeweler’s rouge”). Obviously, if the manufacturer used a “rat tail file” to make the barrel bore.....you can’t help that! memtb

I DBC them all, premium, new, old, whatever I have.

BUT, I take great pains to get them CLEAN, as in Hawkeye borescope clean, before treatment.

DF

Barsness had an article about polishing a bore in a recent Rifle magazine.

I know you have had great luck with it, I don't have a hawkeye borescope and need to remedy that before I even think of doing something like that.

Hawkeye doesn’t lie.

I think some DBC problems could be associated with less than perfectly clean bores prior to treatment.

I’m particular on having uber clean bores for DBC.

DF

Inhavent noticed TSX and TTSX to bullets foul more than any others.

I'll bet lunch money that the Sweets will leave you disappointed,

I also had copper issues for years with the Tsx's,,,,,, Multiple cleaners could not do what Wipeout does so easily.

Don't even wait for the disappointment of Sweet's to occur,,

Order Wipeout today, you'll need it.

I got Tendinitis just reading about all those unnecessary extra steps,

Try wipe-out just once, It does not get any easier, or with better results.

Agree and they foul a lot less than a lot of bullets. The Aframe is in my experience the worst

The original, Jack Carter made TBBC were really bad too.
Honestly, if I have a rifle that will only shoot accurately for 20 rounds before requiring a bore cleaning it goes down the road or gets a new barrel.

Remember a brush is only clean the first time. Use it again, and you are transferring some of the copper it took out back to the barrel. Then when you run a clean patch thru you see copper. And the Dog keeps chasing its tail.

Barrels that shoot great fouled are the jewels. And shouldn’t be fooled with unnecessarily or to make the owner tickled with how shiny they look to the eye.


Addition: "Look, look everyone, no blue on the patch, now I can rest easily in my sleep." More wisdom to be found in playing jumping jacks with the Grandkids....

I like the way you think! Helps me justify only cleaning once, every two or three years! memtb

I kinda half clean them once a year. I figure it keeps them in the most consistent condition. Extremes being spotless and garbage dirty.

Guess that’s why you hear of “fouling shots”. Some fouling to get it settled in.

I don’t clean mine that often. But I’m not a target shooter. I clean at the end of a hunting season and after working up loads. I shoot more in load development than actual hunting, which I’m sure is the case for most hunter/reloaders.

DF

I used to shoot quite a bit in load development for various cartridges. However, hunting with “only” one rifle and being “very” satisfied with my present load.....I don’t experiment much. Consequently, I don’t shoot a great deal.....which means, I don’t clean often. “The circle of life”! memtb

I have wipe-out,patchout and ballistic advantage. Do you have any KG products?

Not Kenneth, but I do have an assortment of KG products. They're good, I'm just into Patch Out at the present time.

And, as a Loony, I reserve the right to change my mind...

DF

KG products are heavily endorsed by Gunwerks

Sweets stinks like hell and can damage your bite if you forget and leave it in too long. I like the patch out better than wipe out but both work great. The Bore Tech copper remover is just as good.

Barnes cr10 works for me

Mess with it while you have cuts on your fingers…..stings like hell.

Years ago, when I started messing with the original Banes bullets, I experienced the next level of copper fouling! There's a very good reason Barnes came out with their CR-10. I was BSing with a buddy up at the rifle range back then about it and he gave me a bottle of industrial grade ammonia, claiming it'll get the copper out faster than anything. Holy crap! Use with extreme caution! Only used it once and still have the bottle on my shelf. But that's only because I don't know what to do with it! A lot of very good advise here, I have some different stuff to try.

I agree. Sweets only gets used if I have to clean a bore on an old used rifle that someone neglected or did not clean right. Sounds kind of like what is going with the op. Otherwise it stays in the drawer and rarely gets used. Its only used for extreme cases. I know guys hate cleaning their rifles, but if you neglect them and don't use some type of copper cleaning agent you will get copper build up like the OP is experiencing. Contrary to popular opinion, hoppes #9 does nothing for cleaning, but does smell good. I have an air freshener to prove it.. I just use shooters choice when I need to clean my barrels out on a regular basis. Never have any copper fouling issues. I think they changed the name to MC7 or something like that, but it works and I've been using it for a long time with barrels that have many thousand rounds on them with no ill effects. Yes there is better stuff out there now, but this has worked for so long that I trust it.. Keep in mind that any solvent that has ammonia in it, you can't leave it in the bore for too long (like overnight). I also don't see a big copper build up in my rifles with Barnes bullets, even after a 100 rounds in a range session.. Good luck with it..

Copper is 1000 x easier to remove than carbon and yet everyone wrings their hands over copper.

With regard to fouling, has anyone noticed any difference when using powders such as R16, R23, R26, or the IMR Enduron powders that all supposedly contain a copper fouling eliminator agent? Wondering if it actually helps or makes a difference? Thanks!

With the original Barnes X bullets, it was quickly discovered that they fouled badly……especially so with a less than “super slick” barrel! The newer grooved bullets much improved the fouling situation!

Back in the day, a fried had terrible groups (patterns) with the original Barnes’! I convinced him to hand lap/polish his rifle bore. Once done it reduced the fouling and greatly improved his groups…..yes they were now “groups”! Still pretty poor groups but much improved!

You may try hand lapping your bore and see if it helps some! Just a thought! memtb

Absolutely there is a difference.

Agree 100%, hard carbon is the headache for me.

Early experience with the original X and the blue coated ones swore me off the damn things. Fug Barnes and if the GMX, CX and e-tips do the same fug them too. I'll carry the damn things but use the good stuff fug all the anti lead a holes.
Mb

Killed (not harvested) well over 100 big game animals with Barnes. 25, 270 7mm, 30, 9.3, 375 and 12 bore.

All but one one shot kills.

Good barrels work fine. If you ignore Barnes instructions they won't shoot.

That's usually the problem.

I have good results with Bore Tech Eliminator.

I think those powders do help. The last time I used RL16 in my 300 RSAUM, the bore looked very clean afterwards, and I'm running 165 TTSX's in that one..

Bore tech eliminator is the best all around cleaner for copper and fouling that ive used!

Just use an aluminum jag otherwise youll never get all the copper out….