Thinking this may be the 1st year I may get my son out deer hunting under our mentored Hunt program. Suppose I am looking for a little insight as to a rifle choice for this hunt. All of the rifles I am considering are the CZ 527 bolt action configuration. Then it boils down to caliber my 1st thought is the 6.5 Grendel followed by 300 BLK and 7.62 x 39 and even a 223 is a consideration.

All are rifles mentioned above - I currently own, if any changes were to be made the length of pull may be a consideration.

My son is 9 years old and big for his age weighing in roughly at 110 lbs and standing roughly 4' 5" tall.

I welcome your thoughts, suggestions and especially first hand experience in this arena.

Is this for white tail? If so I can't see it matters much.

If he's OK with the recoil the 6.5 Grendel is the most capable. The .223 is softest shooting. Seems like one or the other is likely to be the best plan.

I’m a 6.5 slut so that’s the way I’d roll.

Yes, this is for midwest Whitetail likely a 200 lb deer give or take 50 lbs Id expect. For me Grendel all the way yet we will have to compare recoil. I anticipate we should be able to set up for a shot inside of 50 yards if all goes according to plan.

300 BLK with 110 GR barnes under these circumstances or the 6.5 Grendel 100 gr barnes are where I am leaning at present.

What range are you expecting shots to be at? All of what you mentioned should be good. Some longer range than others. I am not a fan of the .223 for deer, but yes with a good bullet and shot placement it will work. I have seen to many wounded deer with the .223 and bad shot placement over the years. Not a good thing to 'Mentor"

I would recommend the Grendel, but I would stay away from the Barnes with that round. I would recommend the 123 grain Hornady SSTs or, if you have time for some load development and really want to stick to mono-metal bullets, pick up some Cavity Back MKZs (105 grain) and have at them. The Barnes bullets are a bit too hard to open reliably at lower velocities.

The big Axis buck in my avatar was killed with a TC Encore in 6.5 Grendel using the MKZ bullets. Shot was 95 yards and he went maybe 15 before piling up.

My 8 and 10 year old nephews shoot this gun off the bench with no problems at all with recoil.

Given good bullets, I see no bad choices here within reasonable range. My grandson has killed two bucks very neatly with a 7.62x39 with 123gr SSTs. I wanted a Grendel for his use, but SAS was sold out of the Howas at the time.

Maybe let him pick?

Pretty hard to beat the Howa Mini deal from Whittaker's.

https://shop.whittakerguns.com/product/79783

Yea if I did not already have the CZ 527 the pricing on the Howa would be tempting. Still the CZ is worth the extra $$. Also must say I am a bit surprised at early responses here in that most here seem to favor my favorite 6.5 Grendel.

For that range, I'd want as low of recoil for the mentoree as possible. That would mean the Blackout with the Barnes 110 or the 223 with most anything.

My kids have used the 110 Blackout bullet loaded way down in a 30-06, and a 223 with a number of different bullets.

On whitetails they all work, just go for low recoil.

I started Mrs Blacktailer with a Kimber 308 and light bullets and charges and gradually worked her up to full charge 165 loads. If your son shoots a 22 well he probably won't notice much difference with any of the cartridges you mentioned. Set up a few reactive targets like swingers or cans and let him shoot each. Stock fit is more important than cartridge selection.

6.5 grendel with 120 ballistic tips and never look back. my 8yo similar sized,4'5" 95lb,son will be toting a tikka t3 compact in 7mm-08 hurling 120 bt this yr.
Big Ed

I'd probably go with the Grendel and cut the stock for a shorter LOP with a thin rubber pad. Then after he grows, you can install a 1-1.5" pad to get some of your LOP back. Plenty of good bullet options out there for shots inside 150yds. When my daughter was that age, she shot a youth 700 in 7mm-08 with 120's going about 2,450fps. Both the NBT and the TTSX worked fine. I'd probably go with the 100TTSX in the Grendel, pushed as fast as you can manage. Wouldn't be far off a 250 Savage, which has killed a lot of deer.

At that age and size, I would think anything up to and including a 7mm-08 would be fine. Just make sure the rifle fits the child well. My daughter started at 8 years old with a cut down Model Seven .243 and 80 gr TTSX and she only weighed 47 lbs. She has killed 8 deer in 3 seasons and she has no idea that the rifle has recoil because she has never shot it with full power rounds at anything other than deer...... We use reduced recoil handloads for practice.

Thanks for the input all! So far my vote for, top two suggestions are reduced loads for target work and be sure the length of pull / stock fit. And be sure we plan the length of the hunt to fit his attention span. Then how to approach field dressing may need a little discussion.

My daughter took her first Oklahoma white tail doe at nine years old with a cut down Stevens 200 in .223 Rem with 55 grain Vortx ammunition. She used it again for her second season taking another doe. As long as the range was reasonable the .223 worked very well. She switched to a .300 Savage at 11 years old and never looked back, the .223 is just a varmint rifle now.

Let your son decide what he wants to take, I bought a custom .250 Savage and downloaded .243 ammo for her to try. She liked the .223 and shot it much better than the other two rifles. I saw no reason to force her to shoot something else.

Then we discussed shot placement from different angles, and used deer anatomy targets for her to shoot at. She didn't pull a trigger on deer that were alert to us, and we talked through the shot. I tried to stick with broadside shots only, but I talked her through breaking a shoulder on a quartering to shot on a doe. That 55 grain TSX bullet was more than up for that task.

I'm sure whatever you use your son will be successful.

I own 223 and 76239
My 8 year old who is on the lighter side Enjoys the 223
Either one of those will take a deer out to 200 easily

Not among your choices but my Son’s starter worked very well.
He was 10 yo & @ 110#.

Savage 99, 243 W, 100 gr. bullet @ 2900 FPS.
He didn’t miss a deer with it.

I used videos to instill the POA from diff angles.
I had him shoot a lot before season started.
I had him shoot a lot before season.

Practice, Practice, Practice.

Whatever you choose——> Great Luck

PS, the 99s have short LOP & fit him well.


Jerry

Some where the OP mentioned field dressing. Part of the mentoring should include deer anatomy, find books with lots of illustrations both of the hunting type and biological. Depends on the particular kid but I have seen the entire range from utter fascination to about an equal amount of revulsion.

My dad was an MD and he made the field dressing into a Post Mortum and a dissection exercise. If you can get them to the point where they can name the major organs usually they will be interested in taking part. If not do not force them to do anything until they are a little older and make it a right of passage.

Don't forget the blood on the cheek or the Waidmannsheil right.

My son uses a 300blk as 243 still a little much for him even with light loads.

125nbt 18g h110

Has performed flawlessly for us to 100 yards, which is as far as I will let him shoot

No recoil, plus it’s already threaded for the suppressor

If you load, I’d think some x39 loads could be more emphatic under 100 than the Grendel, if that’s a consideration....but any of those at the ranges you seem to anticipate, are more than adequate. I’d say whichever one he likes shooting and shoots the best, and proceed accordingly. JMO

I'd narrow it down to 6.5G and .223. Of the deer we've killed with those, the 6.5G gives performance nearer to conventional deer cartridges. The .223 kills them fine though. If all I had was a .223 I wouldn't be bothered by it.

When I say "we" I mean our kids of about the same age and size. The point I push is not shooting the centerfire at targets. Use the CZ Scout 22lr for that. Switch over to the 527 on deer. That's what we do with ARs.

The 6.5G in a 20" happens to have noticeably less muzzle blast than the 16" .223, btw.

If you load, 100gr NBT looks good. I have not tried it because I try real hard not to take up loading any more cartridges than I already do.

OK I do reload and am probably fully set up for reloading any of these cartridges. Lighter Hunting bullets in some cases may need to be acquired. Honestly I feel I would be doing well with any of these with a barnes ttsx bullet. Major reason I favor the barnes is generally the bullet weight for a good hunting bullet tends to be fairly light and in turn yielding a little less recoil. With the 223 I will favor a nosier partition or a Barnes TTSX.

As for practice rifle will likely be primarily a CZ 452 in 17HM2. I likely have a lifetimes supply of ammo for both him and I for the HM2. not so much with the 22 rimfire. we can work in a 22 rimfire as well though.

Do not discount the 300 blackout for kids. Under 100 yards with the 125nbt they are plenty enough for deer. Plus no recoil

My hunting buddies daughter uses one with barnes 110 tac and has shot 3 deer. All three DRT

Mine practices with subs suppressed or a 22lr. Then switches over. If you already have one I wouldn’t discount using it

OK with the 300 BLK in mind a few concerns.

1st the short barrel scares me from the standpoint it just seems to easy for anyone let alone a youth to place a finger over the barrel & pull the trigger
2nd with this short barrel I sure would like to use a moderator for 2 purposes, quieter of coarse & the longer length should go a long way to reduce the chance of #1 What would it take to make it legal for a youth to use a moderator in this country? ATF in all their wisdom makes it illegal for a youth to protect their hearing with a moderator under any circumstances if I understand things right. Grr May a youth use a silencer to hunt with the owners supervision? If not what do we need to do to afford them this hearing protection measure?

One of the main reasons I like the Grendel over the Blackout is the longer barrel goes a long way towards making the report quieter for the shooter. That short barrel sure does bark un-nessisarly without a IMHO

Unless you’re talking under 12”, that 300 will have far less blast than a 20” Grendel, IME. maybe I missed where the 300 is a pistol? A 300 burns all its powder from most loads in under 10” or so, and case volume to bore, its very quiet at even supersonic, unsupressed.... at least compared to even 223, much less a Grendel.

i think hes more worried about a shorter barrel being more point-able in any direction by a kid, not muzzle blast. safety concern. counterpoint is that a shorter barrel is easier to handle, especially for a smaller person, i.e. a kid.

Actually seems like he’s worried about them getting a hand in front of the muzzle....which is a stretch for o grown man on most 16” repeaters. Anyhoo, I’m not tracking on this concern, at all.

You being with them as the owner if the Suppressor.

When I recommended the 300blk I wasn’t necessarily recommending a SBR. Although it would be handy in the treestand.

Mine is a model 7 in 300blk with a 16” barrel. With the suppressor on it there is no recoil, and the noise from supersonic loads won’t ring your ears. I just switch the stock back and forth between a youth stock and the factory kuiu stock as needed.

Subsonic are crazy quiet, and the kids can practice very comfortably with them

For anyone to use your suppressor You just have to be present with them, and they need to be legal to own or posses a firearm. For kids that means under adult supervision.

Things have really changed, back in the day we were happy to have ANY gun to go hunting.

Well I have not applied for a tax stamp yet So I do not have a suppressor, That being said it looks like the Grendel and the 300 blk are very comparable in terms of recoil all else being equal. If I had a suppressor the 300 BLK would defiantly be the go to gun. As things stand for this season I am leaning to the Grendel with 100 gr TSX at 3700FPS or so.


Yea I would have been glad to shoot any of these when I was his age. though I had to wait another 3 years as we could not hunt deer until we were 12. Model 760 6MM Rem is what I started off with. And I was Glad to have it. Worked like a champ IMHO. Still i prefer a bolt action and have become very fond of the CZ 527 to be sure.

If he’s 9 you definitely want a low recoiling round, otherwise he may never want to go again or learn to flinch.

I suggest a 243, 257 Roberts, 250 Savage or factory low recoil rounds in a 25-06 or 270.

AR-15 platform Grendel will work, 6.8 SPC too

Good luck and happy hunting

That 6.5/100@2700 will be far louder and have more blast, than a 308/[email protected] or not, 20” vs 16”, too. That’s why my wife’s AR is a 300 BLK (unsupressed) 16”. The recoil is a non-issue for her, but she hated the muzzle blast from even my 20” 223; 6.5, and 6.8 ARs. She’s only 5’ in heels.

Just ask him which one he likes to shoot most.
There's no need to overthink everything.
I bet he already knows the answer.

I definitely wouldn't buy a .223 for deer hunting. You can kill a deer with a 76 Ford pickup also, but I wouldn't buy one of them for hunting deer either. There are just better choices IMHO.

Purchased the 223 for varmint hunting and later realized they're are some bullets that will allow the 223 to be an acceptable deer rifle in the right hands. My 9 year old son probably won't fall in the class of the right hands as I am seeing things now. On the other hand I see the 7.62 x 39, 6.5 G and the 300 BLK as very adiquit in a competent hunters hands. I feel under a mentored situation we can meet this bar quite readily.


As for hh4whiskey statement on the 308 cal 125 GR Partition @2300, I suppose we could load a 6.5 cal 125 GR partition for the 6.5 G to the same effect. This I am taking into consideration as well.

With proper hearing protection I expect either the 100 gr TSX @ 2700 or a 125 gr Partition @2300 from a 24 " barrel; - Amount to a horse a piece from the sensitive shooters prospective. We may give both a go in the real world to see how this plays out. Either should do a fine job on game.

It’s different burn rate powders and pressure curves for the 6.5 vs the 300.

The 300 was BUILT for short barrels, fast powder burn, etc. Its bore to case ratio is vastly different from the 6.5. Even IF you use a 20” barrel and have equal velocity/bullet weight, the Grendel is most likely louder and has more muzzle blast. Now, you could cook up some short barrel loads for the Grendel, to mitigate, but you’d likely give up performance, due to bore/case physics. Bore to case ratio is a big deal for blast/noise under 20”, IME. My 357 max will run 180s to well past 2400 in 16”, with less noise (and often FELT recoil) than my 6.5/6.8 ARs, and even my 5.56 versions ....at least for noise.

Just put muffs on them and roll, but don’t think the Grendel is somehow ‘softer’ on the shooter than the 300. They’ll both have light recoil. The Grendel will likely have more blast, no matter what you do, short of a suppressor.

hh4whiskey - Thank you for your input. Lots of good choices on how we get the job done. Sounds like you deserve a chance to give the Grendel a chance also. My son & I will give both the Gr and the Blk a chance & we will see what catches his fancy. Starting to regret not applying for a tax stamp yet so I can finish the suppressor purchase.

LOL....it’s not about giving the Grendel a chance. It’s about the physics of it. They are what they are. By all means, give him the opportunity to see what HE likes, and the Grendel can for sure extend his range (if desired), and be far more versatile. It just wasn’t DESIGNED with mitigating blast in short barrels as a consideration. The 300 was.

My sons both did extremely well with a 6-250 with a long barrel which did 2 things:

1) provided weight against recoil

2) put distance between the muzzle & him to protect against blast

I actually think that #2 matters more than most people recognize.

He used very mild loads with ballistic tips. With low velocity loads I’d stay away from Barnes and use something that has a wider range of effective velocity. In the 6.5 the 100 GR Hornady tipped target bullet would be a great candidate for you.

243 Win with 85-95 grain loads. Several million deer have been easily dropped at 200-300 yards with the old 243 Win. Kid friendly for sure and shoots like a laser.

Something tells me you were right. My son was introduced to the Grendel and the 300 BLK last night. The shorter barrel on the 300 BLK makes for a much more comfortable balance point for him. Then we are down to the CZ 527 and a youth handy rifle in single shot as options in the stable. Again due to weight and balance I think the little handy with a straight 4 power scope may work best at this time. More exposure or testing to come.

Then we will start out practicing with some 123 grain low recoil sub sonic loads. Moving on to hunting loads If accuracy is found with the 110 gr barnes Tac-Tx load we may have found our recipe. We will see how the practice session works out.

Honestly I was leaning to the 24" barreled Grendel though at this point the 16 blackout may get the nod due to his ability to handle the lighter rifle. We will see if he chooses the simple handy or slightly heavier CZ527 both in 300 BLK. Oh that is right the wand chooses the wizard Note: He prefers to call the 300 blackout by its original name 300 whisper

If you do use 300 blk we have had very good success with 125 Nosler ballistic tips and h110.

I don’t reload plinking subs as I only use them for the kids. I normally just buy S&b subs as I can get them for 12$/20. They shooters good enough for them to practice with at 50 yards, and out of my gun stay subsonic!!

For expanding subs I use the maker Rex 200. This will be my first year trying it on deer so haven’t seen how it will perform yet. Have a small piece of land I can hunt but it’s basically bow only as the owners don’t want a bunch of shooting early in morning. They are fine with me using this set up though!! 75 yards is my max distance to shoot anywhere there and should be fine with my set up.

Obviously a good 6.5 bullet moving 2600fps or more is more potent, but my kid is still a little recoil/blast shy and even 243 has too much recoil and muzzle blast( need to get there model 7 youth 243 threaded if I can)

Good luck on the hunt. My son and nephew go next weekend!!

I feel there are roughly a half a dozen great choices or so, for full velocity bullets suitable for deer or hog hunting with the 300 BLK that come to mind. Hornady 129 Gr SP, Hornady 123 gr SST, Barnes 110 gr Tac-TX, Cavity back 105 gr, Sierra 120 gr pro hunter Along with Nosler 125 gr Partition are all considerations. And for subsonic I was aware of one and now two bullets that may work well as subsonic hunting loads. Please feel free or encouraged to share with me as to how the Maker Rex 200 works out for you.

We made it out today with the reduced loads for target practice and I feel we were both encouraged with an all around good experience. Was a windy day and we limited our distance to 25 yards. Accuracy was more than acceptable IMHO. With the reduced recoil all worked out very well as a introduction to the deer hunting type rifle. mind you we ,we defiantly have not yet worked with deer hunting loads yet. All this will come in time.

I’m running 125 NBTs for just about anything we might shoot with a 300. Something to keep in mind, at least some the subsonic ‘hunting’ loads, are just mimicking expanding broadheads it would seem. You’re unlikely to get very emphatic kills, at least as compared to the supersonic loads, though stuff will die...it’s just probably gonna be tracking the bleed out, unless you hit CNS. He still might be all over the 6.5....never know.