I'm not asking if 7mm-08 is a good cartridge or an effective one. I'm pretty convinced that it is. I'm thinking about its future in light of the 6.5 Creedmoor. For someone who doesn't reload, I'm not sure what the 7mm-08 offers that the 6.5 Creedmoor doesn't offer with more ammo availability. I'm only guessing, but it seems like the 7mm-08 section at Cabela's and Scheels is getting smaller and smaller by the year.

My god I hope not! I just bought one and plan on another and hope to start all my grandkids in them.

The 7mm08 has its place. I dont think the creedmoor is going to make it go extinct. I love the creedmoor, but i wouldnt mind having another 7mm08

I think it is too firmly entrenched to go away. There are always people who like the 7mm caliber...it's hard not to like. But if they introduce a 7mm Creedmoor.......

The stores stock whatever is hot, especially as hunter numbers (and hence gun sales) decline so don't use that as your standard. I had a couple 7-08s, I can't warm up to the 28s, but keep one 280 that shoots very well and is a model rifle I really like, otherwise it would be gone also. Don't see any creedmoor in my future. The 7-08 isn't going anywhere after all this time, not sure I would say the same about the creedmoor.

The 7mm-08 ain't going nowhere, its an effective cartridge but I think its popularity has already peaked with its day in the sun far in the past, especially with the " latest greatest" Creedmoor the cartridge craze of the Month the 7mm-08's popularity will most likely wane even more. It will still be with us for the foreseeable future as there will always be fans of short action rifles that love .284 dia bullets 👍......Hb

It basically is already a 7mm creedmoor. What would the difference be? Hypothetically speaking..

I think it will go a similar path in which the 300 Savage has gone. There will be lots of used guns in this cartridge and relatively few if any new guns in the next decade or two. Ammo will still be available, but just the plain Jane stuff. The 6.5 Creedmoor has definitely hurt it, IMHO.

It would be the same difference as between the 260 and the 6.5CM, no? And it appears to me that the 6.5 has done no favors for the 260.

Nahhhhh. It'll be around for a pretty long damn time.

Only 7-08 I would consider wouldn’t be available in any factory configuration that I am aware of. 1-8 and throated for 180s.

It has a place, another 308 wildcat from the factory. Wife has one and it works quite well. Has the short action limitations. But then so do others IE the 260 Remington. Better with lighter bullets.

Yep. Spot on. You'll see some special runs of them in thirty years. Still love the 7mm-08

-Jake

Someone that doesn't roll their own will forever be at the mercy of marketing trends, as well as flaky supply chains and panics like several we've been through since 2008 or so. They're also missing out on an interesting hobby on its own.

Even if I gave up loading, I'd still keep enough gear and supplies to keep in the game, come what may.

Never had a 7-08, but a quick run through a loading manual makes its charms very obvious. I certainly wouldn't let the lack of Walmart ammo keep me away from it.

It will be obsolete about 15 minutes ahead of the .30-'06. I'm not holding my breath for either one to die.

Tom

Gayer. It'd be gayer. More posers kicking tires at the gun shop counter and blabbing [bleep] about minutia and hypothetical 700 yard shots on internet forums.

but mostly it'd be gayer.

It basically is already a 7mm creedmoor.

Yes for both of these.

ou
What? Aint no way dude! The Crudmoor ain't no where in the same class as a 7. I think the Crudmoor is way over hyped.

The 7mm bullet lineup is awesome, regardless of what case you stomp it in. The 7mm-08 is probably the 2nd most popular 7mm behind the 7mm Rem Mag. I don’t ever see it being “obscure”.

It ain’t goin nowhere!!

I like 7-08 well enough, but it has always been obscure where I live. Not that there is anything wrong with it, it just never caught on. The 6.5 CM has.



Obscure and obsolete are not the same thing. I expect both 7-08 and 3006 to become obscure in my lifetime, but not obsolete. If anything 3006 will go 1st. There are a butt load of 3006 rifles out there, but very few new production. Some new rifles are no longer even being offered in 30-06 whereas it along with 270 used to be the 1st chambering's offered when something new came out. Ruger has 10 different versions of the Hawkeye, only 2 are available in 30-06, only 3 in 7-08. They don't offer a single Hawkeye in 270 BTW. If you want a 270 you have to settle for the Ruger American. Times are a changing.

Some sales numbers from one manufacturer in 2019, nearly 1/3 of all rifles sold were in the hated 6.5 CM. 308 only accounted for 7%, with 3006 lumped into the "other" category. I wouldn't be surprised to see similar numbers from other manufacturers.

https://christensenarms.com/blog/2019-in-review/

AND it would turn the buyer into an instant Sniper.

I’m gonna keep the 7mm-08 alive all by myself!

Obscurity? No.

Backseat in popularity to the 6.5 Creedmoor? Yes.

Many, many moons ago I started deer hunting with a used Marlin 336CS 30-30 that had a steel tube El Paso 4x Weaver already mounted on it that I bought from a local pawn shop and I killed several deer with it.

I somehow figured that the 30-30 wasn't killing them dead enough so I purchased a bolt 30-06 and mounted a Leupold 3x9 on it and I also took several deer with it.

After a few years I grew tried of the 30-06 recoil and purchased a bolt 7mm-08 and mounted a Leupold fixed 6x on it and I've never looked back......it kills deer just as dead as the 30-30 and 30-06 does and with my 120 gr. Sierra Pro Hunter load over a near max charge of Varget it's considerably easier on the shoulder.

Factory ammo never has been overly plentiful for the 08' but it's a great cartridge and I don't see it fading away.

The 7-08 Rem sits between two popular cartridges, the 6.5 Creedmoor and the 308 Win. Looking at those two there are game most suitable to one or the other depending on game size, bullet weights, recoil and reach ability. The 308 Win is still very popular because many households have one. Truth is the 7-08 Rem combines the best of both and supersedes both by virtue of similar case capacities, but with bullet weights and designs that have no rival for that case capacity. The 7-08 Rem is the sweet spot for versatility and all around performance that can be tailored for any circumstance up close or very far away.

"The 7-08 Rem is the sweet spot for versatility and all around performance . . ."

This!

Most hunters are shooting whitetails and mulies. The 7mm-08 is a much better choice for that application than the 30-06. Plus, it is a great elk round, too. Especially with modern bullets.

And, due to its short action, the rifle that shoots it can be a little smaller and lighter.

It may not be sexy, nor adopted by the U.S. military, but, all of the above means that the 7mm-08 is a great choice for a lot of hunters, and will be around for a long time.

JMHO

You mean theres some kinda way to not love both 6.5 an 7mm and not agonize over which one you buy next with countless oscillations between the two?

Is it just me with such an addiction?

I made a perfectly good .308 into a 7mm-08 back in the early ‘90’s and have paid more for cartridges ever since. I too think that it will be a lot like the .300 Savage round in that there are a lot of rifles chambered for it and maybe mail order cartridges only, but available. I’ve always opted for some of the more premium 7mm-08 bullet offerings anyway and those are not usually available locally anyway.

The .280 is still alive and there are less new rifles in that chambering than the 7mm-08, but yes, the Creedmoor is taking away market share that would have been occupied by the 7mm-08 or .243 in years past. There may be slightly fewer ammo offerings in 7mm-08 in years to come, but there are still a lot of existing rifles in that chambering.

For my money, I like it better than the Creedmoor or the .308 as a hunting round, but it's really not much different overall in that role. I shoot them all.

Get in line.





P

Not in my house! I usually have 4-5 in the gun safe, currently down to only 2 but just ordered a new action and will soon be back up to 3

7mm what ?

Echo the sentiment the creedmoor has relegated it to a mostly hand loader only proposition.

Something else to consider: except for a few exceptions, pretty much all cartridges have a shrinking market share simply because of the growing number of options that continue to become available.

The way I remember it the 7/08 came on a little slow in the early years, well known to rifle looney types but not especially by average or ordinary public. It is now 40 years old and about as popular as the .270 was when it was 40 years old.

Some of you may remember hunting talk around the barbershop in the mid or early 1960's and many participating did not know what a .270 was back then.
My point is that now there are enough rifles in the 7/08 caliber out there that it is not going away.

Well if the 7mm-08 goes extinct it is because it can't compete with my favorite ----------- the 7x5 Mauser!

CJ

..................Too many 7mm buffs out there. 7/08 gonna be around for a long time to come.

Good indicators to determine IF the 7/08 cartridge is on the down slide or not, would be to track all of the new factory rifles available in 7/08, available factory ammo and brass for the reloaders. If any one or any combo of those three were taking place then I might be concerned a little if a 7/08 owner or a wannabe 7/08 owner...

bsa1917hunter, that's my point....the 6.5 Creedmoor offers, in my opinion, one large advantage and one small advantage over the .260 Remington. The ability to seat VLD bullets to correct length and still have the shank of the bullet in the neck, and a slightly sharper shoulder. With more conventional bullets there is not much difference to the hunter who stil thinks 400 yards is a long shot. On game, I'm one of those, and seldom shoot at game over 300 anymore. The hypothetical 7mm Creedmoor would offer the same advantages to the 7..-08, but are they important enough to create demand for a new cartridge? Probably not, but if there are those out there who want to load long for caliber, high BC bullets......

My bet is the 7mm-08 is with us a long time, as it is almost an ideal deer cartridge. But, I said that about the .260 when it came out (still think so), and look what happened.

In the group that I shoot with all are hunters and pretty serious shooters. Several have bought 6 and 6.5 Creeds, no new 7-08s. Small sample but covers an age range from 28-73 y/o of mostly good shooters and one old hacker.


mike r

no - not for a long time,maybe someday -maybe never? 257 Roberts is almost lost now,i personally hope not ,hell the 6.5 Creedmoor might be gone in 30 years ? who knows for sure ?

Okay, Pharmseller and I will keep it alive!

120BT @ 3200fps in 7-08 is pretty hard to beat for such low recoil and effective range on deer, mulies and even elk. I'm a fan.

Greats you won’t find at WalMart:
416 Rigby
375 H&H
300 H&H
7x57
9.3-62
280 Standard or AI

Really irrelevant test, that available at WalMart deal.

By a bit, the 7-08 is what the .308 should have been from the beginning, for 99 percent of what needs be done by either.

Yeah that’s a good one. Very effective and seems we’re not the only ones with that opinion.

Gotta use Big Game powder, of course.

DF

It's called the 7mm GPC.
The parent case is the 30 T/C, same as the needmore

I've had a 7-08 or two since the 80's. Maybe the best deer/antelope load ever.

The only way it will ever "go away" is when, if, the .308 is banned for civilian sales, i.e., never.

Didn't know about the 7mm GPC, jackmounain. Thanks for the info!

I hope not. 7mm-08 is still pretty high on my list of wants.

I honestly don't think it is going to go away. However, it may fall into semi-obscurity for a while-- kind of the way 300 Savage did.

I was going to buy a Savage 99. My buddy who used to be a gun rag editor told me to stay away from 300 Savage, because it was going to become an orphan. True, in the early 2000's most folks were shying away from it. It was getting harder to find factory fodder. Savage had stopped making 99's, and the bulk of their last rifles were in 308 WIN. I bought a 308 WIN Savage 99 instead, and learned to download it to 300 Savage levels. It's still one of my favorite deer rifles.

However, within a few years, 300 Savage made a comeback. It's still out there. Folks are still interested in it. It isn't dead and it probably is not going to be.

I see 7mm-08 kind of going the same way. Both can use ubiquitous 308 brass. 7mm bullets are almost as ubiquitous as .308. There is no special treatment needed. It may fall out of favor with some gunmakers. However, some will probably keep it around, because it is one of the better chamberings for their rifles (Browning BLR's for an example).

For me, I want to start playing with 7mm-08 when my 30-06 rifles start getting hard to shoot. I'm approaching 62. I've already hit my highwater mark for recoil. Eventually, I'll not be as interested in my stable of aught-sixes and I'll start seriously dabbling in things that are easier on the shoulder. 7mm-08 will be top of my list.

I have great .308 and 7-08 rifles, like them both, use them both. .308 is a Kimber Classic with Broughton barrel, the 7-08, a SA 700 with Hart.

I read some time ago, one posters claiming the 7-08 squeezes all the "suck" out of the.308. I don't believe that, just passing on one opinion.

DF

As good as the 7-08 Rem is it will never surpass the 308 Win in the field. When you have a 2.8” cartridge that duplicates 90% of what the 30-06 will do in the game field, and do it with less recoil and a superb record for long range accuracy you have IMO reached the pinnacle of a do-it-all big game cartridge.

Not sure you got my drift, which was a gentle nudge to the OP about getting into hand-loading so he won't forever have to worry about where his next box of ammo is coming from, or let popularity unduly influence what he shoots. The 7-08 is somewhat under-appreciated right now, but I sure wouldn't let that keep me from buying one if I wanted to, same as some others that are falling off a bit just now, but are as useful as ever. I usually look for rifles that appeal to me, then look at what cartridges are available. I see very little practical difference between most cartridges for my use, putting Eastern whitetails in my freezer. Stick 'em right, and reach for your knife.

Only place I ever hear anybody even talk about the 7mm-08 is on here. Seems to already be largely moot.

Thanks for all the replies. I've been looking for a certain rifle in 6.5 Creedmoor but found it for a great price at a local gun shop in 7mm-08. From what I know about it, the 7mm-08 seems like it would be great. But there are lots of good factory loads for the Creedmoor and not many for the 7mm-08. I can shoot the 6.5 creedmoor pretty cheaply. Not so much the 7mm-08.

Getting into reloading is a whole other thing... it would change my perspective for sure.

Gotta reload.

But, you're right. For the non-reloader, it's hard to beat the Creed, top quality ammo on the dealer's shelves and at fair prices.

I have both, shoot both, don't see much difference regarding how they perform on WT's and hogs. Both do the job. IMO, it depends more on the bullet than the caliber/round in comparing those two.

DF

I suspect the 6.5CM and 6.5PRC will do to the 7mm-08 what the .243 Win did to the .257 Roberts.

Bullets of fairly similar weight, diameter and construction with better B.C. values and, with the PRC, higher velocities than the 7mm-08.

Not knocking the 7mm-08 as I think it is a great cartridge. Just don't see it competing well with the 6.5's in new sales.

7mm-08 has significantly more velocity with same bullet weights than the CM, with the capability of much heavier projectile, should one wish. And since BC doesn’t matter to 90% of shooters, I get a kick out of the CM fanboy-ism.




P

I've never owned a 7mm08 and only owned a 6.5cm for a month or so, but I do pay attention to what dealers stock. Judging from the tremendous success of the 6.5s, and so few sightings of 7mm08s and very limited 7mm08 ammo choices, I'd guess the 7mm08 has seen its best days. Few hunters hand load, even fewer new hunters who are the buyers of today. If you want to know what people are buying, visit Walmart, the largest seller of guns in the United states. My local Walmart has 6 to 7 different factory loads for the 6.5cm, and none for the 7mm08. There's the answer. Ymmv

I’m down to my last 5 7mm-08s. Still think it’s one of the finest cartridges in existence. I remember 15 years ago a few of us were walking down an old logging road, in the dark, hiking to a spot we picked out to hunt bull elk. As the sun just started to come up, my buddy says - look up the road about 430yds. Then all of a sudden - BANG! All I saw was a flash of light and heard a hard thump. We walked up the road to where he shot, and 10ft off the road was a nice 6x6 Bull on the ground. The bullet was a 140gr Remington Corelock, our of an older Remington 7mm-08. Yea, the 7mm-08 works like a charm on game big and small. The Bull didn’t go 10ft, and fell over dead.

“CM fanboy-ism”?

Not so much. Didn’t see a need for one but finally bought my first and only last December - a Savage 12FV (26” heavy barrel) – because I couldn’t pass up the $299 price after rebate.

The 6.5CM has a lot going for it but it also has limitations. The 6.5CM was designed specifically as a target round and goals include, per Dave Emary, “less propellant, less recoil, longer barrel life and better accuracy” than comparable cartridges like the .260 Rem and 6.5-284. It was designed with a fast 1-8 twist barrel standard, to better handle heavy -for-caliber bullets, while the 7mm-08 standard is 1-9.5. Go to your local gun store and see what they have in stock for 6.5CM rifles and ammo vs 7mm-08. My guess is 6.5CM rifles are outselling 7mm-08 by 10x or more. Regardless of the actual number, that isn’t “CM fanboy-ism” but rather acknowledgement of what’s on gun store shelves and what the salespeople tell me is selling.

As to limitations, I would have preferred to see the 6.5CM with a 65,000psi SAAMI limit like the 6mm Remington and 6.5PRC. The 62,000 psi SAAMI limit for the 6.5CM is one reason why I’m considering a sporter-weight 6.5PRC barrel rather than a 6.5CM for a currently barrel-less Savage action. For hunting I am not concerned about the repeated recoil encountered by target shooters at matches.

Are the 6.5CM and 7mm-08 both fine hunting cartridges? Yes. I’d bet that 99% of the time what a hunter does with one they could do with the other.

The fact is the 6.5CM has a bright, shiny future and has taken a lot of 7mm-08 sales since it’s introduction. While the 7mm-08 was introduced as a factory round in 1980, forty years ago, I suspect sales of 6.5CM rifles have already eclipsed the total number of 7mm-08 rifles sold by a wide margin.

Not trying to knock the 7mm-08, just taking an objective look at the way things stand.


[edit to add]
BTW, if I was a 6.5 fanboy I'd probably have or be looking to get a sporter-weight 6.5CM for hunting. Instead I have none and no plans or desires to get one. There isn't anything a 6.5CM will do for me inside 600 yards that I cannot accomplish with the .243" to .308" tools I already have. And I have better tools for beyond 600 yards.
[end edit]

I get it, the 6.5 CM is a shiny new toy with significantly better marketing. But we’re talking about half a millimeter difference and 100 fps less (maybe more) velocity.

Whatever sells guns, I guess.



P

"Whatever sells guns, I guess."

That's my view. Higher sales of guns and ammo mean a healthier, more prosperous gun industry which is good for us all...

So get out there and buy stuff!

And learn to reload so you can keep shooting your personal favorites, even after they have fallen from the mainstream.

I sort of think the .270W and maybe .243 W is more likely overtaken by the 6.5 CM than any other popular cartridges. I had a 6.5 CM for a short time but I sold it to a girl and went back to .30-06. My experience lead me to believe it would kill like a .270 and recoil like a .243W. My prospective daughter in law was talking about buying a CM because she didn't like the kick of our .270W Ruger 77. I advised a 6.5 Grendel.

I have what is for me about the perfect whitetail deer rifle in my Model 7 stainless in 7-08. Short, relatively light but not overly so, low recoil and plenty of options for bullet weights and designs. For antelope to mule deer, its hard to pick a better round. I could care less what happens to the commercial availability as long as components are available bit I do think the Creed has taken some sales from the 7-08.

7mm08 rocks!

In the last twenty years, the 7mm08 is probably one of the top ten calibers sold in deer hunting rifles. Most that bought them are very happy and will continue to use them. Only shooters that got to have the latest greatest will replace them with a Creedmoor. I have been hearing the same thing said about the 30 30 for 50 years and each deer season you see 30 30 ammo on sale everywhere.

What do you wanna bet that a smart marketing firm could rebrand the 30-30 as the "30 WCF Tactical Lever Magnum" and spike sales? A few videos about the armor plating deer and elk are growing and you'd be in the money...

It sure doesn't show in the ammo available on the shelves at the stores. Places like Wal-Mart still get .243, .270, .30-30, .308 and .30-06 by the pallet in several brands and bullet weights every season. In the past few years the 6.5 Creedmoor has joined those old stalwarts in quantity and brand/bullet selection on the shelves. If you can find a few boxes of one brand of 7mm-08 on the shelves you're lucky. Heck the selection of .300 WSM, 7mm Rem mag. and .300 Win. mag. is better than 7mm-08 and it's not like many people around here are hunting elk, moose or grizzlies. In fact, thinking about it, I personally know more people who use one of those magnums or a .223 or 7.62x39 for deer than I do folks who use 7mm-08's.

I'm just glad folks are buying guns. I don't care what they buy - short, long, shot, bolt, lever, semi, tactical or traditional.

I don't personally see the 6.5 Creedmoor and 7mm08 as the same. I see them as complementing each other as the 6mm Creedmoor does on the other end!

6mm 108gr, 6.5mm 140ish gr, 7mm 168 to 180gr. There is a place for all three in my opinion.

Mine is similar, a Kimber Montana. Shoots lights out with 120 NBTs. And for anything bigger than deer, like you said, plenty of bigger bullets, it shoots 140 NPTs really well too.

But if you're talking about the average deer hunter, I'd say the 7-08 was already a little obscure, and the Creedmoor hasn't helped. It's the man-bun of cartridges.

What’s your thinking, Grendel over Creed?

Both good rounds. Just curious.

DF

Like many cartridges, it should. IMHO we have way too many different loadings that do essentially the same thing, for practical purposes.

When I chose my first big-game rifle, I chose 6.5 CM over the 7mm-08 because of the quantity of good ammo out there for the CM. Not because of any wild stories about the CM as a miracle round or because I felt like I needed a super high-BC bullet for hunting success. I don't think I was overly influenced by marketing, and honestly I don't recall seeing much marketing.

If someone wants to start manufacturing really good 7mm-08 practice ammo at a low price (like Hornady's American Gunner series with the CM), I'd be all over the 7mm-08 for my next rifle.

You live in East Little Bozeman, of course you have a 6.5 Creedmoor!

She doesn't like recoil and wanted to hunt with my Weatherby Vanguard 2 in .223. My neighbor friend has an AR in 6.5 Grendel and with a 120 to 135 grain bullet it seems almost if not equal to .308W with 150 grain bullets in trajectory. Kills hogs very well with a 129 Nosler LRAB. Very low recoil and she isn't likely to shoot over 250 yards. The light recoil is why I recommended it. Besides that we are set up to reload that caliber and I let my cousin have the Creedmoor dies.

Try finding a new factory rifle in 25-06 now. Less .270 WIN chamberings, too. Forget finding a 257 Bob or 6.5 Swede, or a .260 Rem (a few are cataloged). The 7mm-08 is also seen less frequently, now. All due to the 6.5 Creedmoor. I remember Mule deer (JB) saying that the 7mm-08 is closer to the 270 WIN than anything else, in the field & on paper. I have a Weatherby stainless 20" Mark V six-lug 7mm-08 rifle, ~ 6.5 lb, 7.2 lb. w/ a 2-7X scope, usually sub-MOA. A sweet, easy to hike with rifle. I'm very pleased with it and the caliber. Working up loads w/ the Barnes 120 gr. TTSX now. Long live the 7mm-08!
Mark & Belle

Im the only guy in my deer lease out of 11 members and guests I ever saw use a 7mm08. The rest are 270 or 3006 guys. Some of the younger guys are using magnums , you know just in case “that 600 yard shot comes along “ my primary is a 270 but if the same set up was in 7mm08 I would use that. My 7mm08 rifle is just my second favorite set up so it comes along as my back up. One of these years I will probably sell it and get a light weight 7mm08.
I think it is popular in some circles but the average deer hunter I find knows little or never heard of one. I learned about the 7mm08 on the fire.
I thought dang just thats just what I been looking for. So I bought one in a Montana Rifle Company X2 a few years back. Just bit heavy and the stock a bit fat for my taste but a great rifle just the same.

At some point, 6.5 sales will level out too, once everyone that wants one gets it. Rifles are pretty much the ultimate in durable goods, so the usual sales cycle for such stuff will occur. I never got a 7-08 because it was too close to my .270s (before all the emphasis on short and light). Haven't bought a 6.5 CM because I have that niche surrounded by other stuff. I know where there are a couple of 6.5 Alpines available at a decent price right now, and I barely felt a twinge. Barely.

somebody will come up with a 7mm, or 6.5, or .308, or 6mm, whizbang flipsumhammer in the next year or two and then everyone will be wondering what happened to the 6.5CM.

I will keep my 30-06, .270, and 300 Savage for my big game rifles. Plenty of ammo in the stores and gun shows i frequent. For small game, varmints my .222 or 22 mag's will do all i need.

You guys must go to stores that only sell the latest wonder ammo rather than tried and true hunting ammo.

somebody will come up with a 7mm, or 6.5, or .308, or 6mm, whizbang flipsumhammer in the next year or two and then everyone will be wondering what happened to the 6.5CM.

I will keep my 30-06, .270, and 300 Savage for my big game rifles. Plenty of ammo in the stores and gun shows i frequent. For small game, varmints my .222 or 22 mag's will do all i need.

You guys must go to stores that only sell the latest wonder ammo rather than tried and true hunting ammo.

AR’s may be a bit more involved than a bolt gun for a new shooter. If she can handle it.

DF

I thought Ruger American comes in 6.5 Grendel. If so, is that a decent enough rifle? I've never used one.

I’ve never shot an RAR but people who have seem to like them.

A mutual friend of ours just bought a T/C Compass for a lady. Those are reportedly accurate. Not sure what rounds they are chambered for.

One of those is gonna cost less than an AR, a good one at least. They are a lot of gun for the buck.

DF

Because of mono bullets and penetration, I think a lot if people look at anything from 243 to 7mm08 as being capable of handling the same animals. AKA I don't think new/first-time rifle buyers are looking for multiple, specialized rifles. And the 6.5cm is the current "pound for pound" favorite. But 708 handles much heavier bullets and isn't going away. Wal-Mart near me doesn't carry several other cartridges that aren't going away either -- they just push what they can flip at highest volume to max profit. It's why they sell plastic and Beechwood rifles from Savage and Remlin, too.

The engineer in me got curious how the 6.5CM, 6.5PRC and 7mm-08 compare using mid-range bullet weights. Checked the ballistics using 6.5mm 129g and 142g LRAB and 7mm 140g AB and 150g LRAB. Used 7000ft altitude (my default) and MPBR zeroing for 6” diameter targets, Hodgdon load data for each weight, even if Hodgdon specified a different bullet. Used 130g bullet weights were data was not available for 129g and similarly used 143g data for 142g bullets. B.C values were taken from Nosler web site.

Also threw in data for a .280 Rem, which has a SAAMI MAP of 60,000psi, using a 155g Federal Terminal Ascent, since I’m working up loads for my .280 Rem. Federal load data, B.C. .586.

B.C. values used:
.530 = 6.5CM 129g LRAB
.625 = 6.5CM 142g LRAB
.485 = 7mm 140g AB
.546 = 7mm 150g LRAB
.586 = .280 Rem, 155g Terminal Ascent

Here is the load data (all with 24” barrels):
6.5CM, 129g LRAB @ 2889fps
6.5CM, 142g LRAB @ 2814fps
7mm-08, 140g AB @ 2976fps (no 7mm LRAB under 150g)
7mm-08, 150g LRAB @ 2908fps
6.5PRC, 129g LRAB @ 3090fps
6.5PRC, 142g LRAB @ 2982fps
.280 Rem, 155g TA @ 2949fps

And the results ==================

MPBR Zero:
250yds = 6.5CM/129g LRAB
247yds = 6.5CM/142g LRAB
256yds = 7mm-08, 140g AB
252yds = 7mm-08, 150g LRAB
267yds = 6.5PRC, 129g LRAB
260yds = 6.5PRC, 142g LRAB
256yds = .280 Rem, 155g Terminal Ascent

Drop @ 600 yds:
56” = 6.5CM, 129g LRAB
57” = 6.5CM, 142g LRAB
53” = 7mm-08, 140g AB
54” = 7mm-08, 150g LRAB
46” = 6.5PRC, 129g LRAB
48” = 6.5PRC, 142g LRAB
51” = .280 Rem, 155g Terminal Ascent

Wind Drift @ 600 yds:
18” = 6.5CM, 129g LRAB
15” = 6.5CM, 142g LRAB
19” = 7mm-08, 140g AB
17” = 7mm-08, 150g LRAB
16” = 6.5PRC, 129g LRAB
14” = 6.5PRC, 142g LRAB
15” = .280 Rem, 155g Terminal Ascent

2000fps:
730yds = 6.5CM, 129g LRAB
795yds = 6.5CM, 142g LRAB
725yds = 7mm-08, 140g AB
765yds= 7mm-08, 150g LRAB
875yds = 6.5PRC, 129g LRAB
940yds = 6.5PRC, 142g LRAB
855yds = .280 Rem, 155g Terminal Ascent

1500fpe:
475yds = 6.5CM, 129g LRAB
600yds = 6.5CM, 142g LRAB
565yds = 7mm-08, 140g AB
650yds = 7mm-08, 150g LRAB
620yds = 6.5PRC, 129g LRAB
750yds = 6.5PRC, 142g LRAB
765yds = .280 Rem, 155g Terminal Ascent

1000fpe:
850yds = 6.5CM, 129g LRAB
1040yds = 6.5CM, 142g LRAB
905yds = 7mm-08, 140g AB
1030yds = 7mm-08, 150g LRAB
995yds = 6.5PRC, 129g LRAB
1185yds = 6.5PRC, 142g LRAB
1170yds = .280 Rem, 155g Terminal Ascent

My thoughts ==================
If you are hunting smallish big game like antelope or limiting your shooting distances to 400 yards or under, you would need a microscope to tell the difference between the 6.5CM and 7mm-08. If going for larger game I might go with the heavier bullets offered by the 7mm-08. The 175g LRAB does very well, maintaining 1969fps/1500fpe out to 675yds with 70” drop and 16” wind drift at 600yds (2593fps M.V. per Hodgdon load data).

The 129g ABLR is still very capable at 600 yards, with 2145fps and 1318fpe. That is very similar to many .30-30 loads at 100 yards. The 6.5CM and 7mm-08 with bullets weighing 150g and less are both marginal for elk at 600 using my standard metric of 2000fps/1500fpe for elk, although I would prefer the 7mm-08. Or the 6.5PRC with the 143g bullet.

Love my .280 Rem.

The ultimate conversation stopper...

And if that don't do it, the ballistics tables will........

I think the Grendel will be perfect for her. I'm on my second, after some disillusionment with my first. This one's a Howa Mini with an aftermarket hinged floorplate. My handloads with 120gr Speer Gold Dots at an alleged 2600 fps are looking pretty good. Haven't shot anything other than paper yet, but the mild little round is a pleasure to shoot, and should give long barrel life. Have plenty of the spendier LRABS too. Mine came with both the standard and youth stock. Based on experience with a youth model 7.62x39, I used that one and added a slip-on pad, so it can go from short to long LOP in an instant.

Gotta tell you, as a totally disinterested party, I get a similar charge out of all the guys who are just as proud of not having one as the guys are who do. Then there are the sad .260 guys, who should just be enjoying their nice rifles instead of lamenting what might have been if only Remington had......yada yada yada.

BTW, those who have 7-08s should check out the numbers for 6.5 Staball in Hodgdon's new manual. Pretty sporty.

Not for me, but I'm an engineer with an electrical degree that studies quantum mechanics and astronomy as hobbies. I understand what ballistic calculations do and do not tell us, as do many others. They are quite useful for comparing destructive potential, less so for predicting actual results after impact because so many other factors then come into play.

It is much like using water jugs or shooting gel to determine what a bullet will do after impact with flesh and bone. The information is far from perfectly predictive but nevertheless provides a useful guide.

good grief...

Hey, it's useful for identifying the best deer bullet for a .300 win mag out to 200 yards.

Exactly

Hilarious

This is my second response to this thread. I think the immense popularity of the Crudmoor is a fad thing. It's probably here to stay and I can see it is a very useful round, I just doubt it's really better than some older cartridges. I think a lot of its popularity is largely due to market hype. It answered one particular question or rather resolved one issue. It allows bullets to be seated out farther than does a .260 Remington and that only in a short action like the Remington 700 Short Action. If you build one on an intermediate or long action you can get more performance out of the .260. Does it really have that many more bullet choices? And how many different bullets do you need? This was one argument against the .270 up until a few years back. Now there's plenty of bullets available for it. Also, the 7mm-08 has as many I believe. And as I said, How many bullets do you need? Even back in the 80s and 90s I hunted with the .270 and only needed a couple of weights. Sometimes I think that bullet availability argument is over blown for argument sake.

7mm-08s are everywhere around here. And you want ammo? Go to Wally World or Academy and it's all over the shelves.

The 7-08 is no johnny come lately round around here and people love it. I shoot a .270 most of the time, but if I didn't have one I can tell you I'd have a 7-08.

Probably a regional thing. I hear the .25-06 is quite popular in Texas too. Not so much around here.

My thought exactly.

Agreed.

What does the 7mm-08 provide that the 6.5CM doesn’t? Heavier bullets for larger game. For the factory ammo shooter, finding ammo loaded with the heavies can be an issue, though. Most factory ammo is 140g and under.

What does the 6.5CM offer? Far more choices for factory ammo and rifles. Midwayusa lists 83 different types of factory ammo for the 6.5CM versus 30 types for the 7mm-08. Plinking ammo for the 6.5CM starts at $13.99/box , ammo for the 7mm-08 at %17.99/box. Hunting ammo starts at $15.99 vs $23.99 respectively. Options for premium bullets are about the same for both. Most rifle manufacturers offer a variety of options for the 6.5CM with 7mm-08 options much more limited. Ruger lists 29 rifles in 6.5CM, 6 in 7mm-08. Savage lists 57 and 34 respectively. Kimber offers far more 6.5CM options than 7mm-08.

From a predominately target use perspective, I think the 6.5CM is a hands down winner. From a predominately hunting perspective, use a microscope to find the differences.

Had to pick between the two this week (in a Remington 700 platform) and decided on the 7mm-08 mostly because the rifle was stainless, but what you just said was also a big part of it.

We on the fire excel at finding, discussing, and cussing microscopic differences!

The popularity of the 6.5 Creedmoor is long past the “fad” stage.

The 6.5CM solved more than one issue. As you point out, it allows bullets to be seated further out. Equally, and actually more important IMHO, the tight chamber and ammo specs and fast 1-8 twist created a combo that shoots very well with factory ammo and heavy-for-caliber bullets with reduced recoil. Lower pressure also extends barrel life. It is an outstanding target round that does very well in the field as well. If you have a 6.5CM there is very little reason to get a 7mm-08 for hunting, whether you handload or not.

Although similar bullet types are available for both cartridges, there are far more factory options for the 6.5CM (83 vs. 30 at midwayusa.com). Same thing with rifle options – there are far more for the 6.5CM, especially in configurations for long range shooting. What I found on a quick 6.5CM vs. 7mm-08 search was 23 to 6 7mm-08 for Ruger, 57 to 30 for Savage, and similar ratios for Kimber and Tikka.

For someone that handloads or decides to buy a custom rifle, factory configuration, twist rates and chamber spec options are far less of a concern. They represent a very tiny fraction of total buyers.

For a multipurpose target/varmint/big game rifle, the 6.5CM is the easy choice. For varmint bullets the 6.5 offers 95g V-MAX bullets with a B.C. of .365 and you can push them to 3371fps per Hogdgon. To get that high a BC in a 7mm varmint bullet you need to go to 120g V-MAX and you only get to around 3200fps. The 7mm-08 needs more powder and a heavier bullet, has more recoil as a result, and falls short ballistically.

For big game hunting the story is much the same. To get the same .625 B.C value of a 143g 6.5mm ELD-X you have to go to a 162g 7mm ELD-X. Again you will burn more powder for lower velocity. The 162g might be a better choice for large deer or elk and up, but for most purposes 6.5 will get the job done just as well. When it comes to the 175g 7mm bullets, you lose even more velocity and have much lower B.C values for bullets suitable for the 7mm-08 standard 1-9.25 twist rate. For the high B.C 175g bullets a 1-8.5 twist or faster is recommended. Finding a 1-8.5 twist 7mm-08 limits factory options.

Both are fine cartridges. If you have one you have little need for the other. For those with neither, the 6.5CM makes the most sense most of the time.

I get it. You're apparently not an engineer type, and that's OK. Some people can discuss sports teams all day and that's fine by me. I find such talk even more boring than watching sporting events - a difficult feat of achievement..

Different strokes.

Only if you have all of the matching attire to go with the 6.5CM.



Before anyone starts jumping up and down and throwing a fit, I've owned a Ruger 77 Stainless Synthetic 6.5 CM since just after the time when they first became available. I shot it some and found it to be a good, accurate cartridge, but since I'm mostly a hunter, it offered nothing extra for me and my needs. Now it sits in a gun safe most of the time. I grab either my Model 70 FW 7MM-08 or my Sako 6.5x55 Swede rifles far more when its time to go hunting. And I don't grab either of them because of the rifles alone. Both of those cartridges serve me and my needs very well. JMO.........

Smokeless powder was once a passing “fad”, too.

I have 7-08 and 6.5 CM rifles with premium barrels.

Having the choice, I don’t need to get into an either/or argument. I just use both.

Dead critters can’t tell the difference, no complaints so far.

DF

Having the choice, I don’t need to get into an either/or argument. I just use both

I bet you grab the one with a stock that fits you best and snuggles up to your cheek like a schools marms tit and says where you been all my life. Probably not much thought on hey, it's a Creedmoor. Lol. This describes one of my 7mm08's. Full confidence in it every time out.

Nm...

Well I feel like my question was answered by this thread, thanks everyone for the thoughtful responses.

For that application the .257 Roberts comes to mind.

And a Hawkeye sure would be a slim, trim little rifle to put it in if one wanted to go that way

Bit too much of a large simian for it myself but a lot of newer shooters have liked mine (not in 257 Bob sadly)

Another “obscure” round that’s not going anywhere, performs way above its weight class.

Have one of those, too.

DF

Yes, I think it is at least in terms of retail sales.
It will still be around but very much not the front runner.
6.5Creedmoor does the same thing with way more options available in terms of guns and ammo.

The tiny local gun shop to big regional/national chains have gotten behind 6.5Creedmoor.

Walk into the local Walmart and you're greeted with 4-6 different 6.5Creedmoor ammo options. You might get one 7MM08 option.
Walmart stocks what sells.

You nailed it however prior to edit....😁

It was true, but unkind on my part...

Ok Brad, what did you say? I’m late to the party.

Me, too. My Roberts has been my favorite rifle since I got it 16 years ago. It was one reason I didn't feel any need for a 6.5CM, but a new 26" heavy barrel Savage 12FV for $295 was too good to pass up. It fills the nonexistent gap between my .243Win and .257Rob on the lower end and my 6.5-06AI and .280 Rem on the top side. The CM shoots great with both handloads and factory, so no complaints.

Confessions of a Loony. Ha!

I’ve been filling those “gaps” myself for quite a while.

DF

Hmm. Maybe it's a good round,maybe its not. Lots of people like it. I'm not one to jump on the band wagon. I just caved last fall and picked up a 204 in a trade deal and it hit the market around '04. I like it well enough but the 222 is still my first choice for varmints. And as long as I still have a 250 savage,257 Roberts,25-06 and a 7-08 I just don't see me ever owning a 6.5 cm. If I do get the itch for another .264 cal it'll likely be another 6.5-284.

Have 6.5 CM, 6.5-284 and 26 Nosler. Shoot them all. Like all three.

DF

The 120 ttsx at 3200fps is even better!😉

Don’t know if I am a good judge, though, I have a 260, 6.5 cm and a 7-08. I have been thinking about narrowing it down to just one, and that would be the 7-08 for its versatility.

Can testify about the 120 NBT out of my 7-08 being a killer, haven’t used that TTSX, but others have done well.

DF

Just having some fun. I have used both the BT and TTSX and have had excellent results with both. The BT was slightly more accurate with a better bc, but I liked the terminal performance from the ttsx when I got over 3100 fps.

Coworkers brother picked up a Ruger American in 7MM08 and it puts 3 shots in a small cluster at 100 yards. He wants to get rid of the off brand scope on it and buy a Leupold Rifleman, I told him I would leave it as is for what he paid for it.

Agree.

If it ain't broke...

And a cheap Chicom scope is probably better than a Leupold is one believes all the negative comments about Leupold...

DF

Yeah, it's already about the same as it would be, ballistically..................Creedmoor name might be a little sexier.

As far as the 7-08 going away, likely not, but it also is not going to grow anymore either...........most new shooters (are there any?) will likely be influenced enough by the 6.5 craze to buy that instead.

But if you have a 7-08 already, you really don't "need" a 6.5 as what one will do the other will also & vice versa.

I have a great 7-08 in an original Rem 700 Ti that is incredibly accurate (after some TLC) that I'll likely never let go of, so other than just having a 6.5 for the sake of having it, & more brass, bullets, dies, etc., I don't really need anything else in a similar power level range.

I have 270's, 280's & '06's & 25-06's & love them all, but for animals the size of antelope to moose, with bullets from 120-160 grains, the 7-08 is just fine for me & it's as much about the package as the cartridge. Doesn't mean I don't still love & use the others...............my most favorite rifle of all is a KS Custom Shop M-700 in 270, not because of the cartridge, but because of the package. But the 7-08 Ti package is nearly as good, just not quite.

MM

I bought a Ruger MkII in .284 Winchester as a teenager in the 70's.

When it was no longer the current media darling, I sold and went after something else, which has been a pattern of mine for decades.

Looking back, the .284's 150gr bullet @ 2850 fps would have cleanly handled every hunting situation I've ever faced, and would still be a great choice for anything except varmints or dangerous game.

And I could have used all that gun money on hunting!!!

P.S. I now have a 7mm-08 in a stainless Tikka. I will NEVER sell that gun!

Hmmm...that's an amazing accomplishment, seeing as how the MKII was not introduced until 1991!

I sure hope not. I have never owned one, but from looking at it on paper it is very appealing and if I hunted some place besides Alaska I would have one. Whats not to like, low recoil, good ballistics and lots of loading components. I think it has gained in popularity in Alaska for female and younger shooters. Then as usual guys start noticing all the one shot kills these ladies and kids are getting with their "light rifle" and we look at our 30-06 and magnums and scratch our heads.

I sure hope not. I have never owned one, but from looking at it on paper it is very appealing and if I hunted some place besides Alaska I would have one. Whats not to like, low recoil, good ballistics and lots of loading components. I think it has gained in popularity in Alaska for female and younger shooters. Then as usual guys start noticing all the one shot kills these ladies and kids are getting with their "light rifle" and we look at our 30-06 and magnums and scratch our heads.

And I dont remember the MkII coming in 284. The Tanger did.

I bought my first 7MM-08 almost 20 years ago a Weatherby Ultra light. The second is a custom Ruger #1. I'll confess to a love affair with the 7MM as there are the two 08's, 3 7x57, and a 280. I doubt it's going to go away in my lifetime. I load all my own ammo so thats not an issue. I drank the 6.5 CM kool aid in a Ruger #1 and just never warmed up to either the rifle (I'm a fan of single shot rifles) or the cartridge. Being somewhat of a traditionalist I guess I had a 6.5X55 built on a 1909 Argentine Mauser action. The Swede has worked well for 100 years or so and it will continue to do so, then again I also have a 300 Savage. Long live the classics:)

Ha! You're right. It was a plain old M77 with a tang safety.

Heresy...

Where'd you come up with that "NEED" word.

Should be taboo in a Loony forum...

DF

If need came into play I'd only have one rifle. Thankfully I want far more than I need.

+1 on that.

I like the way you think...

A fellow Loony for sure...

That NEED word makes me nervous...

DF

I usually use 6 different rifles during deer season, not that I actually get to shoot deer with all of them but they go to the blind. My rifles are on a 5 year rotation. Yup nothing at all to do with need.

I don't cycle that fast, usually a couple per season, hardly ever the same ones, season to season. Always have a new project ongoing, hunting is just the lab test for equipment.

I guess we have too many rifles...

Or is there such a thing...??

DF

My gunsmith once told me "you can never have to many rifles". I've been getting a custom gun a year for the past 3-4 years now. Just before deer season last year I picked up a 38-55 on a High Wall action. I got it sighted in with factory ammo and put a doe in the freezer. He has a side lever action made by Steve Earl that I was going to use for a build in 300 H&H. Reality hit when we realized I needed a rimmed cartridge. I have the 38-55 and a #1 in 450-400. after kicking some calibers around he said "you have everything already covered". We opted for another #1 action and will make some adjustments on the metal. The donor rifle, stock blank and barrel are in. I should have it for deer season.


Maybe this will be the last one as he's looking at retirement but I said that three rifles ago.