Came across a guy this weekend that had a $5000 muzzleloader with arrowhead parts. Shoots 110 by weight of blackhorn and claims is accurate to 800 yd, using parker bullets, variflame ignition and a descent scope. As interesting as it sounded, I did some research and found a few builders and the cost was $2600 up to $9500 for a custom muzzleloader.

I then found CVA has adjusted their powder data for Paramount. Paramount line was listed at I think 112 by weight if I remember correct. One Cva Paramount is $1900 down to around $900. The Paramount can shoot the same amount of blackhorn as these high end rifles. Difference appears to be the stock configuration and not using carbon fiber barrels.

So the question is what can these $5000 dollar muzzle loaders do that a muzzle loader that cost about 2/3 less cant do if the same amount of powder and bullet is used?

My thought is most kills are less than 100yds so you could get a $100 dollar muzzle loader and do the same as the $5000 one.

100% Danny,


Just like rifles.

A $300 rifle is not "Just as good as most $3000 ones".
With the exception of springs and screws, everytjing on it is probably
of lesser quality. Less effort in assembly too.

But, it will function, shoot way better than most will need or can use.


That puts the $300 and the $3000 guns in the same category.
Good enough!

I was actually thinking this same thing, just wanted some opinions. Figured I was going in the right direction.

Get the less expensive, but equally effective, rifle and spend the rest on ammo.
Just a thought.

My take is: what good is an 800 yard rifle on game?

Answer: if it’s your hobby to punch targets at 800 yards, then the rifle is prob worth it to you. But you better not be shooting game at 800 yards. No matter what you are shooting, there is not one made that has enough energy left

I have yet to see anyone post data showing a bullet capture at that distance with a nicely expanded bullet. The highly touted ELR won’t. Not enough velocity left.

Everyone knows external ballistics when they talk long range shooting of animals. Long range animal shooters don't talk terminal ballistics. That's why.

Agree on all the points above. If long-range muzzleloading is your game, check twist rates. The CVA may not be twisted as tight.

"Performance" is a word that should be defined.

If accuracy with some given projectile is the definition, then quality and rifling geometry of the bore, along with the quality of the barrel to stock fit is all that we are discussing. In that case a TC, Lyman or CVA will preform as well and any other muzzleloader regardless of cost. Even those with unreliable locks will kill game as well as any because it's the bullet hole that does the killing, not the gun itself. The gun and even the bullet or ball are simply tools used to make the hole in the game.

So in the same way a used Honda car is every bit as good for going to work in, or going to the grocery store, as the best BMW or Ferrari, so is the cheapest muzzleloader as good as the most expensive.

The high end guns are hand made with stocks and often many of the metal parts too. They are fitted to the customer and bespoke in every detail and so they cost more because the gunsmith can't work for free any more then you can. But this

https://www.gunsamerica.com/965429454/CUSTOM-54-CAL-FLINTLOCK-BY-STEVE-ZIHN.htm

doesn't kill a deer any deader than this.

https://www.sportsmans.com/medias/c...M5NmFhNDU4ODkxYjcwZGVlZjQyMmQ5ODJmNDE1YQ

So if performance is held to a definition of killing game and nothing else a plastic stocked gun with a scope is what you should get.

But I often wonder: if that's what performance is why not get this https://ruger.com/products/precisionRifle/specSheets/18028.html instead of either one of those?


And why would anyone spend any money of a nicer home, nicer car, nicer clothing, or nicer anything.....is we are to define "performance" in a way of simply getting a job done?

ASG rifles are rated for smokeless so thats a huge difference. Good luck getting a 275gr bullet moving 2800fps+ with BH209. Arrowhead also does not use Variflame but it does use a LRMP module. Its a far better design than the Variflame.

Never, and I mean never would I spend $5000 on a muzzleloader. Not even if I were shooting long range. There is a gentleman I know that uses a Thompson Center Hawken stocked rifle with a Rice barrel with Lee Shaver peep sights and can consistently hit a 36"x36" target at 1200 yards. I'm willing to bet most of you know him too. Oh and wold it have enough energy to kill a deer. If you see the impact on the target I would say yes. But no person with any amount of sense would attempt it.
Some people just have $$ to throw away.

No matter how ballistically wonderful those extreme MLs are, you still effectively get only one shot at game. What happens when you break a leg or gut-shoot one half a mile away, or even half that distance? That’s problematic enough with a repeating centerfire. Anyone shooting at animals with anything needs to think about what happens when things go awry.

Makes perfect sense.

[quote=txhunter58]My take is: what good is an 800 yard rifle on game?

Answer: if it’s your hobby to punch targets at 800 yards, then the rifle is prob worth it to you. But you better not be shooting game at 800 yards. No matter what you are shooting, there is not one made that has enough energy left
/quote]

Billy Dixon might disagree.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Adobe_Walls

I own an Arrowhead ML. I bought it because I wanted to be able to shoot at game out to 400 yards or so CONFIDENTLY so if the opportunity presented itself, I could make the shot, not just take the shot. It shoots as good as some of my custom guns..... consistently .75 moa or better. A lot of muzzleloaders will get the job done for less but few will deliver that level of performance consistently and repeatedly. I felt if I was going to take a shot that far, I owed it to the animal to have the best equipment I could get my hands on.

This in spades. If I were to go to a Paramount I would buy the ASG breech plug no questions asked. They are using a superior barrel as well that can withstand the pressure of smokeless, a paramount barrel cannot and CVA very clearly states that.

I see that they only ship to FFLs. Are their rifles, not the 700 conversions, considered “firearms”.

Not going there, just curious. Looks like you made a good choice, and a responsible one.👍🏻

What are you shooting in yours?

It can be converted to a modern rifle

The Remington 700ML can not be converted to cartridge configuration..

Maybe where you hunt. But on my farm I can shoot to 400 yards from multiple stands. Our muzzleloader season is now and oddly enough the bucks to get pretty Randy the first half of October so you best be in the woods and ready for anything

I didn’t spend $5k+ on an arrowhead rifle but I did drop about $1500 for an arrowhead barrel and all the accessories that works great on my encore frame. It is just as accurate as my Jon Beanland center fire builds with smokeless or BH and I shoot it to 400 yards to confirm zero and scope dials every year

Like I said on another post recently, what I spent for the barrel and accessories (not to mention an appropriate scope) is a lot of money for our 10 day muzzleloader season. But it tends to be 10 of the best hunting days of the year so I was happy to do it

You cant just buy an ASG breech plug to screw into a Paramount, the LRMP module has to be properly headspaced. but a big plus using Fed215's instead of 209's.
The barrel on mine is a Brux that is rated for smokeless but in my state I have to use Blackhorn to be legal.
My gunsmith made me a switch barrel Muzzleloader/Centerfire Rifle. It started out as a Winchester Heavy Varmint in 220 Swift, My gunsmith installed the Arrowhead muzzleloader conversion in 45cal (I chose this rifle for the conversion so that NO inletting had to be done to the stock).
Mine shoots a 300gr Arrowhead bullet with 105gr weighed BH209 powder at 2520fps, I have it dialed in good accuracy wise at 400yds

PLEASE DISREGARD THE HEADSPACE INSTRUCTIONS IN THIS VIDEO. THE PARAMOUNT HAS CONSISTENT ENOUGH HEAD SPACE THAT ADJUSTMENTS AREN’T NEEDED. Thats per ASG's site.

I'm using 113.5 gr of Blackhorn behind a 327gr Parker Black max. Unbelievably accurate...

What video would that be ????

https://www.arrowheadrifles.com/product/paramount-arrowhead-gen2-upgrade/
or better yet give them a call. it is a drop in fit.

Very nice but not a video

You have reading comprehension issues. Point is I said you did not have to send in the rifle to get the plug fitted and I was right. GFY

Old El' Kchunter, you have writing comprehension issues, no need to be a dick

Paramount doesn’t use a 209 primer to start with anyways. Variflame system still uses a LRMP but it’s not a sealed system like ASG with brass modules. Cecil Epps of Precision Rifle(dead center bullets) is the brain child of the variflame system. To each their own but I’m pretty fond of my smokeless 45cal built with Hankins parts on a M700 action. A person can beat that $5,000 price tag with a little research and doing their own leg work and getting your own parts pile together and having a competent gunsmith doing the machining.

The main reason to spend $5000 on a muzzleloader,

is

to tell others you spent $5000 on a muzzleloader.

I have a relative that has a smokeless he elk hunts with. He kills them over 300 yds. He paid 3 k for his. It was worth it to him.