There isn't one single inline in production right now that I would own. I think I'm on the prowl for another 700ML.

Cant argue with that Swampynoodle.

you mean you no longer own that savage you were talkin up a while ago?

Me either - one of the few things we agree on, Mark.

Love my original orange disc Knight that I bought new for $150. Made two changes in the beginning when you could get the mods. Wrenchless bolt rear and added a crossfire breech plug for pellets. With white hots and scorpions it will clover leaf @ 100. Fantastic trigger and the bolt is a snap to spin apart to clean. I have a life time supply of orange disc's and a few spare breech plugs. I'm set.

My wife bought me a T/C Omega, stainless / sythetic Realtree Hardwoods stock, and a Nikon Prostaff 2-7x32 camo scope eight years ago. The scope is in Leupold QD rings and returns to zero every time. I probably enjoy shooting caplocks and flints more, but it is 100% reliable and puts 295 grain Powerbelts into the same hole at 50 yards all day long - 1 1/2" to 2" groups at 100 yards with three 50 grain Pyrodex pellets. I wouldn't give it up for anything!

The Savage is as good as it gets but I sold my last one. I like Knight products too.

Hey Swamp,

I have a 700ML I am selling. Let me know if you are interested

if you would buy a 700ml over any of the new inlines,then you just proved how nuts you really are. i would buy a cva wolf elcheapo over the remington ml's. any thing but those crappy 700's

Whats wrong with those "crappy" 700's?

What dont you like about em?

I prefer a boltaction and a wood stock. That makes it tough....If I get another 700ML it will be stainless.

Bolt action gets, what, 150 fps more and "deadlier" accuracy? With what, only 6 additional inches of superfluous steel in the action?

A classic example of teats on a boar.

You guys know swampy's just messing with you, stirring the pot, right?

Life's too short to hunt with a fugly gun.

That was a joke, by the way.

We know you better than that.

Doc

poor design,all the trash gets in the bolt and firing pen assesmbly. if you don't take them completly apart everytime you clean it,the firing pen will foul and not work. just a real pain in the ass to clean. there are way better designed ml out there. 700ml is out dated.

Just have to know what you're doing. The accuracy is more than worth the tiny bit of effort.

No, that's wrong. For something to be "outdated" it first has to have utility during a given time period.

A "bolt action" muzzleloader is an idea whose time never came.

I much prefer them over any other type for their faster lock time and looks.

the 700 ml isnt a true bolt action in the first place. Sure it uses a bolt, but its in fact a plunger style set up.

And it's really accurate with all kinds of projectiles.

+1 Wow! I'm agreeing with Swampy on this one.

That can be cured, so can the messy bolt, and the blowback. $90 bucks and 45 minutes.



To each his own though, my four are not for sale.

Good point. Lock time is such a critical issue with in-lines.

didnt we go over this lock time issue a couple months ago ?
im sure we did .
im sure we did becouse i recall geting messages about bolt throws on .250 -- .450
and a given person claiming the throw on a hammer gun was something god off the wall thing like 1 and 1/4 inchs


i guess that old 1.5 horse 2 stroks trolling motor is making its way past the dock again

A traditional gun doesn't even come into the picture. Romantic yes accurate no.....

If the 700ML was so great why did big green quit making them?

LOL. Keep 'em coming!!!! If they'd only put a bolt on those traditional rifles, they might win some matches!!!

Well the same argument could be made about their first gen TI's...

They'll win matches but when I can beat a field of 40 excellent rifleman with my 20 gauge smoothbore it says something about the kind of matches they win.

When you can buy a top end spanish made inline muzzleloader for $69.95, an American company can't sell enough to make a profit.

I had one and just didn't see anything special about it. It wasn't more accurate than a Knight or T/C and just a pain to clean.

chugga , chugga pop , pop


and no its says that what you think are excellent rifleman , ether all had a bad day OR arnt as excellent as your swelled head thinks

edit :ahhh hell never mind

A good looking wood stock - blued metal in-line is a Austin -Halleck. I have one with a 26 inch barrel. It has some great wood on it and the finish is very well done. I do not know if they are still in business, but a used one shouldn't too hard to find.

But $90 is all the gun is worth

i can buy them in descent shape at about any gun show i go to for hardly any money. there giving them away to get rid of them. maybe i'll start buying them to sell to you guys.

to me they have always been nothing but junk.a buddy of mine sold his last month at a show for 80.00

Made in spain......pretty but dangerous.

A clean stainless 700ML is worth quite a bit.

lol they are not worth a lot. Some try to ask a fortune but they often sit for a very long time before the seller gives up.

I've seen them bring $400.00.

You couldn't give me another one

$400 when they were new and back in the day maybe lol

They are more now than when they were new.

they cost less than $200 back then?

A blued one will bring more than $200.00 today. They are only for those who know what they are doing.

they sound dangerous when you put it that way.

Why is that?

If you can't appreciate how truely great they are, then you don't know what you're doing.

I guess he told you!

He really told me

Why are they so fuggin great swampy???? Because Remington made them??? Do you still have one? If not why, if they are so great?

I had a chance to trade my last 700ML for a gun that was worth a whole lot more. I wish I'd kept it. Very very easy to load and they shoot everything really well. Of the dozens of muzzleloaders I've owned, my Model 700MLs really had no negative issues.

Best in the world and you traded it, sounds real special.

I'll tell you why I like em.

ACCURACY! period!

Mine is the most accurate ML I have ever shot and when my friends and I get together to shoot all our ML's they say "well we already know who's gonna win"

BUT----to many the cleaning part is not fun.
I am anal about cleaning my guns so I clean this one to a T (totally stripped) I actually enjoy cleaning my guns so it dont bother me.

But the other reason I love my Rem is my wife gave it to me for our first anniversary...so its got sentimental value too.

Now as far as Swampy, he's got some valid points but not many....except for the one on top of his head.

That's the best reason

I'm not interested in a peeing contest, and will never put down anothers opinion on their guns. I like the 700ML just because I do. For me it is very accurate, I have a wide availability of aftermarket parts, I can put a nice trigger on it no problem. The nasty bolt was always it's weak point, but like I say that can be solved.

I have two original stainless .45s, one stainless .50 cut down to 21", and a blued .50 awaiting a smokeless conversion.

You can find them cheap at times, which I love; but Swamp is right they are bringing more and more.

I saw an original .45 stainless go for $470 on gunbroker a few weeks ago.

Where do you get that horse hockey I wonder?

He makes it up as he goes along

By shooting traditional guns built by some of the most famous builders in the country for about 35 years.

Tradition guns are fun and romantic. They can even be fairly accurate all things considered. They aren't even close to the inlines and they cannot be.

I'll put some money on that if you care to wager. I'll put my home built rifle against any of your Rem700s at any distance you care to shoot.

Tell ya what. Those inlines are supposed to be so accurate at long range, let's shoot a grand. 1000 yds. 15 shots.

If you home built rifle is a sidelock, you couldn't hit a barn at 1000 yards.

I've spanked many a braggart with my sidelocks, but they are what they are..

It should be easy swampy, take Brent's money..........

Well, I was going to bring my underhammer deer rifle. But if you insist, I'll bring a side hammer. It's a better rifle.

I'm willing. Let's shoot at the NRA-Whittington Center Raton NM mid July?

There will be lots of folks to witness your feat.

So, all that leaves is the details of money. How much would you like to wager? The trip will cost me about $500 so how about that? Cash only of course - but then I'm sure I didn't have to say that.

Are ya sure you don't want me to bring my little deer rifle?

At least this will pay for my gas money...

See yah there.

Wouldn't walk 10 feet to shake your hand, much less take your money.

In other words, you are only a bunch of hot air, and hardly a respectable shooter. And a coward to boot.

Got it.

Look out Brent D...he may be gunnin' for ya!




And yeah...thats really him.....

In other words I couldn't care less what you (or anyone else) thinks about me or anything else.

You know I'm right, and that's enough for me.

Is it OK to play "Dress Up" while toting an inline?

It's ok to do whatever you like if your fantasy involves a high degree of long distance accuracy with a side lock gun.

That pretty well settles it, doesn't it.....


Anything us guys need, we have only to refer to the font of all knowledge....

I'm available if you need answers.

THANK YOU!

I just put that post on "favorites" and if you send me your phone #, I'll be sure to put it on speed dial...

Don't know how I could ever repay this kindness...

No fantasy at all. I'm willing to wager, my traditional rifles against any of your inlines at long range - any sights, any powder, any caliber any bullets. Bring your Savage if you want, I don't care.

Put your money where your mouth is, or you will be forever known as SwampChicken.

Perhaps you missed this....

Brent...tweaking me or some of the other members is one thing...

But now you are messing with The Font of All Knowledge!

Perhaps you are a coward.

ingwe - I didn't realize I was messing with a god (in his own mind).

But this is one damn scaredycat coward chicken of a god

No need to resort to name-calling....

Brent you are only messing with an admitted troll, he has admitted to stirring stuff up.

Well, I don't know if he his a troll or not, but I do know he is a windbag that appears to be too chicken to put his money where his mouth is. Who knows, he might even win????

Oh well, I was just hoping to make some easy money to pay for my hobbies.

At least Lee24 has interesting lies and could use google

Look swampy Remington sold a Spanish ML
http://www.remington.com/products/archived/black-powder/genesis-muzzleloader.aspx

It was and is a POS.

"tis better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak up and remove all doubt"....swampy doesn't abide by such nonsense, never leaves any doubt.

I state the facts. What others do with them, is up to them.

Oh prove it. Any of it. You are just a big fat chicken full of hot air.

Blow away

I've already proved it years ago. The laws of phyisics don't change. It's impossible to get great long range groups with a 1/2 second lock time. You know that. If you don't you're in the wrong hobby.

1/2 second lock time? Were you suckin back on grandpa's old cough medicine when you had the stop watch next to the hammer?

How stupid are you really. If you believe it, let's prove it. Your rifle against mine. Stand behind your words of bugger off.

I'll make it even easier for you. You can use any rest from any bench - a machine rest if you want.

I'll shoot from the ground with cross sticks.

You can use any ignition system. I'll use just plain ol CCI or RWS caps.

You can use any bullet made of any material. I'll just use lead and tin bullets that I make myself.

You can use any scope - any power you choose.

I'll use just iron sights.

And I'll smoke your chickenass.

You'll smoke something....

Cluckin' is so becoming on you.

Come on chicken

Did you miss this?

YOu CAN'T shake my hand, OR take my money - because you're too damn chicken. You aren't even a two-bit coward. You're worthless.

Name calling is all you got because I'm right and you and everyone else here knows that.

Traditionalist just won't accept that it's impossible for a traditional gun to be as accurate as the cheapest inline.

my cva hawken with a 295gr powerbelt and 80gr blackhorn209 sure shoots pretty darn good. Much tighter than a rem 700ml actually. Cleaner too

Just calling like they are.

Bring your cheapest, or your most expensive rifle and I'll be glad to shoot for money. What's your problem? Can only be outright cowardice. You haven't a clue what a long range muzzleloader is, much less what it can do.

You are hot air with no place to go.

Laffin'

I actually have a life. Proving to you what you already know is pretty low on my list of things to do.

Nobody ever thinks you're right.........................except you

That does seem to be the pattern. I wonder what it would take for him to figure that out?

Few ever admit that I'm right, but they know I am.

You know I am.

My moneys on Brent.

How about making a buck? How much would it take to make it worth your while?

Dare ya.

Swampy has a look at me attention whore complex.

Soo, what kind of accuracy are you getting with yours and at what distance?

At a grand, you want a group size or a score? Scores can be in the 90s but generally the 80s on a target with a 10" X-ring and a 20" 10 ring.

2 MOA would be about the norm, but it's not the rifle, it's the rifleman who can get under this that wins. The rifles are capable of a bit under 1.5 MOA if the conditions are super perfect, but they never at, and the issue at The Grand is the wind and conditions. You have to know how to shoot - lots of folks, and I mean LOTS of folks have rifles that will out shoot SwampChicken's inlines. You can buy a traditional sidelock off the rack that will smoke him - a Pedersoli Gibbs. But that's just a starting point.

What SwampChicken doesn't understand is that long range muzzleloading is an old old game. The guys that play it don't mess around and they know how to shoot. SwampChicken is lacking in both departments. Plus, he is - well a chicken.

yep I would put my money on brent as well .


So the Rem 700ml can put a shorter string then 14-16 inches at 1000 yards .
has anyone actually seen , read or heard of this happening ?
If so , I would like to read about it .

Now at the same time he is claiming that traditional designs are not capable of that performance, when in fact they set the standard that still today is only matched or exceeded by a very few firearms .
Lets also not forget that even the best at Remington were only capable of competing at that level with a breechloader . Even then they narrowly won the first event they entered in 1874

DBM has a very good web site dedicated to swampmans so called no exsistant rifles .
for those interested you can read up at
http://www.researchpress.co.uk/

The reason the muzzleloaders cannot compete (they can and do) with a breechloader has nothing to do with their inherent accuracy. It has to do with the fact that they take a long time to reload. And they require a lot of moving around by the shooter. Meanwhile the cartridge guy is running a condition and nailing that target down before a big windshift comes along. And the condition is everything.

SwampChicken knows he is in over his head and he hasn't even run into the boys that are good at this game.

Well I know my 700 shoots great but at 1000 I dont know.

This is what it does at 100.

I would love to shoot it at 1000 just to see what it does..

Yup,that's great, but at The Grand, it's toast. It's not the action, it's the barrel (and thus the bullet).

I cant argue with that.

your preaching to the choir on this one Brent
sadly in reality all your doing is raising swampmans thread count .

$188 CVA Wolf @ 100 yards with..... Powerbelts. And clean enough to eat off of at the end of the day of some hard shootin.

I'm not good enough at 300 yards to keep up with any of you guys, but I still like the 700ML. I rarely pick up a centerfire anymore, I just use the 700ML straight on through the rifle season. I'm not knocking anyone's preference, it's just what I like, and I think that's part of the enjoyment we all get from hunting and shooting.

Rather typical.....you just can't beat the 700ML.

I can beat yours Chicken. Even giving you every advantage in terms of rests, sights, ammunition, you still cluck.

You can't do anything.....Laffin'.

Sorry Brent but his was so special he traded it off

Whatever I do, it's infinitely more than you, hiding behind your keyboard. Come on out in the sunlight Chicken.

Old Swampy is yanking everybody's chains with his outlandish claims. Ignore the fool and (hopefully) he'll go away.

The Regiments I marched with back in the day (Confederate and Revolutionary War Highlander) would've laughed his farb-ish ass out of town had he talked like the overbearing know-it-all that he is here on this forum.

Laffin'

Yes we are. But at the same time, it is sad to laugh at someone so ignorant as you.

It's sad that you can't admit the truth. Traditional guns while romantic, cannot be very accurate at long range.

Prove it.

I'm darin' ya. Chicken.

swaprat/chicken/man/y, you're ignorance is exceeded only by your arrogance. It is evident you have absolutely no knowledge, none whatsoever, of the 1874 and 1876 Creedmore matches on Long Island, what the course of fire was or the rifles used. To say nothing of who competed in the match. It is equally evident that your knowledge of muzzleloading history regardging long range shooting during the American War for Independence and the American Civil War is non-existant or you would not make such ill conceived statements as you do. Shooting long range with muzzleloaders is nothing new. One must assume that occasionally you have stumbled upon the truth but quickly righted yourself and carried on as if nothing happened.

I've forgotten more about all those subjects than you'll ever know. None of those rifles will hold a candle to the cheapest inline you can buy.

gnoahh...you have to be right. Nothing else explains him. Fool is too kind and laughing him out of town would have been after the other acts among the bunch of old longhunters I used to run with. A couple of them thought it was still 1790, played pretty rough and did not suffer fools.

He, along with another, are truly are legends in their on minds.

Fixed it....

I've spent time with hundreds of them.....I've seen 2 or 3 that knew their a$$ from a hole in the ground. The rest were quite funny to watch and listen to.

I had a 700 ML once and I also owned a Savage rifle once

No doubt both can be fine rifles. But they are not a match for a purpose built long range muzzleloader - side lock or not.

Here is a doe that I shot at a little over 200 yds with a traditional muzzleloader. It's the exit hole side (there is a pencil sticking out of the hole but all you see is the eraser). Do you think it might run with SwampRat's Remington? It will also shoot to 1000 yds. No problem.

Whachaygot Chicken?

Here is the shoulder blade from the exit side

Nice shot!

It was a mediocre shot actually. It is about 1.5-2" too high, but it was almost dark (5 minutes left in the season, never mind the legal shooting day). But the deer was in a snow-covered bean field so I had a decent sight picture to frame her with iron sights.

This is a different deer (shot very close range) but the same rifle. Warning: It is the Ugliest rifle I've ever owned (not counting one Savage bolt rifle).

Awww no wonder that hole looks so big, ya shot a baby!

LOL just kiddin

The second deer was a baby. A young of the year button buck. That doe was no slouch though. I don't recall what she weighed but probably pushing 200#. Both were shot with a relatively light 475 gr flatnosed, pure lead, paper-patched bullet. Suitable for anything on the continent though.

oh you can tell it was a big doe, look are the forearm muscles in the first pic. First thing i noticed right off the bat.

bigblock - i have a reputation for being a baby killer, must be a little defensive

Every once in a GREAT while, I kill something big. But it sure ain't often.

No shame in killin any of them, they all eat fine

Minute of deer. That's some awesome shooting;(

And you still don't want to try a little match for a little side money? Even if I give you all the advantages? Come on SwampChicken? Let's break the ice and see what you can do.

I don't want to take your money. You know beyond a shadow of doubt I'm right.

Chicken... As always.

As I mentioned earlier, I have a life. You know I'm right.

My moneys still on Brent

Sometimes, for a "guy" like you, a virtual life of imaginary heroics is all you can hope for. We know you have a pretty miserable existence, and we feel sorry for you (but we won't lose any sleep over it).

See me when you want to back up your BS.

You are a [bleep] cretin.

Bring your inline "zip gun" mounted with ANY brand of match grade iron sights and shoot it any 1,000 yard Black powder muzzle loader match.

You and your inline would get your azzes kicked. Schit, you could use a scope and you'd still get your lame azz handed to you.

What fool would hamstring himself with iron sights. That's for the "traditionalist."

Even the cheapest inline will out shoot a $2000.00 sidelock. I've owned many of both.

Then try to take my money SwampChicken?

My guess is you have owned neither. But certainly not a quality sidelock with good irons.

I hear ya cluckin', and you just laid egg #4580.

I too have a 700ML and love it. It is the most accurate ML that I have owned to date. Cleaning is a little more time consuming, yes, but my 100yd targets look like the ones posted earlier. I limit myself to 225 while hunting with it. Can't imagine what it would do at 1000! Mighty long way for 100gr of 777 and a 250gr Shockwave. Awesome shooting Brent!

The thing I like the most about the 700ML is that it's not fussy and it's easy to load.

I'll agree with that.

You know, there is such a thing as class. It's not enough to just exhibit precision shooting. If two guys are shooting side-by-side, one with a tricked out modern in-line the other with a Gibbs long range target rifle, and they both turned in identical scores, I would applaud the guy shooting the Gibbs because he did it with more than a modicum of class. (I would also shake the hand of the in-line shooter, but I wouldn't applaud his efforts.) A great achievement is sweetened greatly by doing it in style, with class.

Swampy, I'm afraid, has little or no class. Witness his inane trolling on this forum.

have there ever been any inlines that won 1000 yard shooting competitions?

Sorry Swampy but when you have owned/own A White Super 91 and a CVA Apex everything else is a distant second. You can consider those 2 "BEST IN THE WORLD". I am talking about legal Muzzleloader rifles designed for hunting deer from 0-200 yards.

In the class Brent is talking about I doubt they're allowed. Now don't get your shorts all in a wad, it's just that I doubt todays in-lines would meet class criteria. Doesn't matter, it's highly unlikely any of the mass produced in-lines would be remotely competitive with those rifles. They simply won't compare to a Gibbs, Rigby, Wesson or any of the others. It would be akin to expecting one of the old EMF Sharps to compete with a Shiloh or Axtel.

No. Never.

I don't know if they are allowed or not. But the basic fact of life is that a bullet could not care less what sort of action is used to launch it. It only cares that it is launched straight and fast enough (both linearly and rotationally). And the facts are the inlines that SwampChicken claims to have, can't do that. Just cannot.

If you rebarrelled them, no particular reason that they couldn't do that, but as they come out of the box. Not a chance.

And that is why SwampChicken doesn't have a chance in hell. Even if I suck as a Creedmoor shooter, at least my traditional rifles are a few orders of magnitude more accurate than his because they are purpose designed as true LONG RANGE muzzleloaders.

I have seen inlines at Friendship, and I think the rules have been expanded to include them in more events. But the accuracy champs at the longest range (500 yds or 500 m, not sure which) are still the underhammers.

Brent

I like that rifle

yeah just dont get your finger stuck under there LOL

I'd like it a lot more if it wasn't so damn ugly. Got no one to blame but me for that stock. That will be replaced one day however.

The one downside to an underhammer is shooting with a large, loose cuff on your left hand (for a righty). There can be some significant stimulation of your left wrist.

This rifle has 4 sets of sights. Two of which are operation when hunting. There are standard barrel sights (patridge rear sight) for shots 125 yds and in) and then a Lyman tang sight has been adapted to the wrist and set for 200 yds.

It also is set up to take a 25X Lyman STS or a Goodwin style vernier-calibrated tang sight that mounts in a whole in the side of the action for shooting out to The Grand as needed.

The front sight is a Lyman 17A fitted with a bubble level by Lee Shaver and generally a crosswire insert hunting. For long range, the crosswires are replaced with any one of a bunch of different lollipop apertures as needed for the current light and target set up.

That's just kinda the nature of underhammers, isn't it? Being ugly I mean. Is Zephyr still out there?

The 17A is a good, solid, simple, interchangeable aperature front sight. I didn't know Lee was installing a spirit level on them. That makes it even better. You have enough windage on your tang? Mine doesn't so when I got the front sight I purchased an MVA with windage. I can't say I'm familiar with the Goodwin, unless by another name.

I never got in to the long range muzzloaders but always admired them. The Pedersoli/Gibbs is probably the only one I could afford!! Be nice to come across a closet find Rigby or Billinghurst or even better than Billinghurst a James Morgan....as if that's going to happen to me! 90% of my long range shooting has been with BPCR's in the guise of a Shiloh #1 Sporter in 40-2.5 or a Shiloh Long Range Expres in 45-2.1, no longer own the latter rifle. The 40 beat up on it pretty good.

Well, Hilliard and Billinghurst made some beauties and while mine really could not be made truly handsome, it could have been a lot better.

Lee makes his own entirely from scratch now. But he used to modify the Lyman and it is a good sight. Bombproof for sure.

When I use the Goodwin style tang, it has 2" of windage. Or 100 minutes left and right of center. The Lyman Rem 14 sight has no windage. So, it is set for zero wind and hold off is required. Not a big deal a hunting sight to 300 yds generally.

YOu can build an underhammer pretty easily and a few guys have rebarreled various Lyman and TC half-stocks. So, there are several ways to go, though these half=stocks have a geometry that is not optimal to heavy recoil.

Brent

they dont have to be fuggly eather . there are some very ,VERY nicly done ones out there .

here is one i built for a customer a few years ago

Muzzle Loader porn! Looks great!

Beautiful work Cap! I bet they shoot as good as they look!

Indeed, proof positive that my rifle is uglier than it has to be. That is a very nice underhammer. Looks like an H&A action or is it a Deer Creek version. Mine is a bit different. The barrel screws on an it is an action make by the Blue Grouse guy.

Brent

the action on that one is also a blue grouse action brent .
made that one ??? 3 or 4 years ago

yours is as i recall the BG dedicated action . the one above is their interchangeable action

in all honesty , i know very little about under hammers past how to make and build them .
for such a simple rifle , they are very accurate

I forgot that Blue Grouse made them for pinned barrel mounting. Looks great. My does not move barrels easily. It rebarrels like a regular muzzleloader or breech loader. I thought that was a good way to go for a rifle that takes heavy charges and heavy bullets.

I'll steal some of your ideas to restock mine one day.

Brent

That's hideous.

Well done cap...as usual!

+1. Now if they'd only have been smart enough to make a bolt-action underhammer.......LOL

thank you for the kind words




it shouldn�t make a whole lot of difference concerning heavy charges with a heavy bullet .
A proper breech is still a proper breech .
now that being said . i do think the design yours uses, would be more accurate at longer distances.
The interchangeable receiver IMO is subject to wear . At the very least enough movement in the receiver to effect long distance shooting .
I would also submit that what a stock looks like is less important then proper fit and purpose
.
It would appear from what you have been saying here ,that your rifle is doing its job just fine . I wouldn�t personally change anything .

Good thing underhammer guns aren't traditional. They'd be popular and I'd have to poke my eyes out.

swampman , the under hammer is a design that ,,, well , it has to grow on you .
no doubt they are not slim and graceful like a nice fowler or long rifle .

But neither are modern designs . Simply put , there is nothing graceful or artistic about the flow or lines of the rem700 ml either.
But some folks like them . Myself though . I have yet to see a modern design that I didn�t think was hideous . Regardless of the effort put into restocking it .
But like the under hammer , some folks find them pleasing to the eye

But regardless of the looks , the under hammer has proven itself and is still in production
Last I heard , the Rem 700 ml is not and from what you have said here , , it would appear that you don�t own one .;)


as to traditional or not .

As I said before . I don�t know much about the under hammer . But I can tell you that the roots of the under hammer are Germanic and were flintlock and date to the early 18th century .
i also have read where The republic of Texas had a large contract in the mid to late 1830 to supply under hammers to their military

http://underhammers.blogspot.com/2007/03/underhammer-history-briefly.html

Interesting. I never thought much about underhammers one way or the other. After seeing these I'm thinking I might have to try one. Perfect example of the KISS principle!

cap, I'd have to agree with you in that they tend grow on you. For a description of the first one I saw hideous would have been appropriate. That was close to 40 years ago and they've grown on me. I think it was after reading an article on the Zephyr, I believe, that I began to take a second look at them. It had a very slow twist barrel, shallow rifling, something like 1-120 up to 1-170, large bore and consumed huge doses of powder. Seifried did an article on Forsyth rifles in DGJ and I believe they followed the same concept. I may be compelled to try one.

Roberts wasn't very keen on the underhammer for a few personal reasons, but, to each his own.

Underhammer are the quintessential American muzzleloader. It was and is a working gun for the most part. I have seem people make locks for both underhammer and mule ear locks that are completely primitive and jury rigged. Things like a bolt and a strap hinge can suffice for a lock.
Brent

Except perhaps a woman's leg there is nothing more graceful and attractive than the Model 700.

Brent , I would not mind owning a muzzleloader like yours. It is for lack of better words elegant and graceful.

One of them hairy french womans leg maybe

LOL , i was actually thinking more along the lines of john Belushi and his SNL example of a German woman waving good by . All you see or remeberer is a big hairy arm pit LOL

I've never seen a modern in-line that could remotely be called "graceful" or "attractive" with the possilbe exception of one that slightly resembles the high wall. Funcitonal, yes. Graceful and attractive, not to my eye.

Well, I shoot in-lines but I've gotta agree with cap' and sharps.

Here's a good way to test the theory though---how many guys would hang an in-line over the mantle in their hunting cabin?

Good point smokepole. Here's what hangs over my mantle.

That'll work.

The very definition of elegance. Silver or German Silver furniture?

I have.....

yeah but u also like french women with hairy legs

I rest my case.

gnoahh, German silver, except the buttplate, it's steel in the white.

Not authentic but pretty....

Of course you have...

Well, at least it's "authentic."

nice rifle you have there sharps .
Looks like she has served you well

There's a nice Rem. inline in the classified's, looks like a helluva price for the best in the world.

Gunner

He ain't actually lookin' to buy one.

Not seeing it?

Thanks cap. It's pretty good workmanship, the wood looks as if it grew to the metal, all of it, patch box, barrel pin escutcheons, butt plate, lock and side plate and hunters star. The guy did a really nice job inletting. I only have about 1000 rounds through it so it hasn't seen a lot of service. I've only taken a couple does with it, 2 shots, two does. It is exceedingly accurate. 45 cal., Siler lock and Green Mountain barrel.

Gotta love .45 round ball. I had never messed with a .45 until one time at a colonial market fair I ran into Bucky Getz who had a load of his "seconds" barrels with him. I bought a .45 for about 1/2 the money, the only defect being some surface rust on the outside. It is now the heart of my Vincent rifle and cuts clover leafs at 50 yds. and "minute of whitetail eyesocket" at 100.

.45 flinters are the cat's meow.........or maybe the end of it if you're so disposed.

A 45 was my first muzzleloading rifle. I was young back then and wanted something bigger so everything evolved through the 50 to the 54. I bought that rifle 3-4 years ago and fell back in love with the 45. Got a flint pistol to match the caliber but with different finish. The top one.



The middle one is a TVM by Matt Avance and is 62 cal. smoothbore. Bottom is a 1913 Colt SAA I had restored close to 20 years ago. Outer bark Ivory grips engraved with the Square and Compass.

gnoahh, one of these days I am going to have an Ohio Vincent only in 40 cal. They are so.....svelte and elegant.

My hope is get an Ohio for my grandson. I'd want a 2/3's scale in .40 and have Steve Zihn build it....sigh!!


Johnny $

Steve Zihn is good. I've seen lots of his firearms on the Track site...wow.

The Vincent rifle is the only cap gun I ever truly lusted after, other than a lifelong love affair with Springfield 42's, 55's, 61's and 63's. Owned a couple of Hawkens repros, including a Cherry Corners/Ithaca but as accurate as they were, and pleasing to the eye, they don't hold a candle to a properly done Ohio rifle. (Caliber limitations not withstanding.) English sporting and target rifles are moving steadily up my wish list though! (If I could just tear myself away from flinters!)

why would you need to ? there are alot of very good chunk guns that are flinters
not to mention english and german sporting guns also in flint

I forgot you thought so highly of the Handi-Rifle!

Brent,

You don't even have to challenge the troll to an individual match. I'd gladly chip in for his entry fee to shoot at Friendship this summer, just to watch him not show up... And since I live less than 2 hours away, I'll volunteer to be the Campfire historian and photographer for the event...