So I know some guys swear the muzzle loaders made in Spain have problems and are unsafe. However, I remember reading this was about early ones produced in the 90's that didn't have proof marks on them. Can anyone provide any evidence of ones that do have the proof marks on the barrels being unsafe?
Shooter error. Theres a scare tactics website thats anti cva, this website was started by the ambulance chasing lawyer who is also a close friend of randy wakeman. Wakeman is the main problem, hes untruthful and doesnt tell you the entire story.
Last year i shot a good deal over 5,000 shots through my CVA's with a big assortment of bullets, powders. I've also been shooting them since i was 14 years old. I am now 27 and so my experience with them has many years behind it.
This BS going on with Swampman is just to stir the pot and ignite tempers of those shooting CVA or Traditions brand muzzle loaders.
Most often, muzzle loaders and even centerfires explode due to misuse. That being an unapproved powder used in the muzzle loader, short started projectiles,mud, snow in the bore. One thing a lot of folks never think of is when they fire the gun, the primer goes POP! and then they scratch their head, re-primer and BOOM! Gun blows up. Why? Because when your muzzle loader misfired the first time, the pressure of the primer pushed the BULLET off the Powder Charge. Now that doesnt happen in a good deal of cases, the lucky only end up with a bulged barrel and a sick feeling in their gut.
Its easier to blame the builder of the gun, rather than man up and say, "Ok, i fudged up!"
The early model CVA Inlines made in 1995 and 1996 did have a problem with their breech plugs blowing out. Theres a recall on these models still to this day. I think they've recovered up to 96% of these guns.
In an email to Toby Bridges, i called him out on him talking down on spanish made guns and then getting sponsored by Traditions and praising them in his reviews.
His Response:
My only beef with CVA, and Traditions for that matter, has been that in the past they seemed to do nothing to insure American consumers that they had tested their
barrels to insure they had the strength and integrity to withstand some of the loads these companies have promoted using in those rifles. It is now widely known that
some of the popular three-pellet Triple Seven 150-grain charges with a saboted 300-grain bullet is pushing peak pressures well above the 30,000 p.s.i. level. Yet, the
barrels are proofed in the Spanish proof house to only about 10,000 p.s.i. - EACH BARREL IS PROOFED. And, that is more than I can say about American made muzzleloading
rifles.
CVA CEO's Reply:
Actually, each individual CVA barrel was not proof tested, nor were any others, be they Spanish or USA, but rather the design was tested to levels well in excess of magnum charge pressures � which is a 24,000. CVA barrel were marked with a proof of 10,000 psi because that was the Spanish minimum for muzzleloaders, but this standard was established back in the side lock days and was not relevant to magnum in-line. However, because the formula was on the barrel, Toby and others got into an uproar due to their misinterpretation of its meaning.
Toby:
I believe if either Traditions or CVA made an effort to test their barrels, here in the U.S.
CVA CEO:
Why should they be tested in the US? Are Berettas and Benellis tested in the US. The best guns in the world are NOT made in the USA, so why this insistence on doing proof tests in the USA, to pressures of 80,000 p.s.i. Why 80,000 psi? That is quadruple the pressure created by a magnum charge (24,000). Centerfire proof testing is only done at 30% above expected pressures. Why is he suggesting such a higher standard for muzzleloaders � unless he want them to be capable of sustaining smokeless powder pressures?
------------------------------------------
Not even Knight or TC Pressure test every single barrel.
Now to show you some examples of simple shooter error:
This person forgot to ram his ROUND BALL down on top of the powder charge.
![[Linked Image]](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/DSC_2421.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/DSC_2662.jpg)
This custom made Hawken exploded at a Rendezvous when the shooter loaded the gun, got distracted, loaded again, pushing the load only halfway down the bore due to another distraction.
![[Linked Image]](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/DSCN1168.jpg)
![[Linked Image]](http://i293.photobucket.com/albums/mm53/thepowerbeltforum/DSCN1166.jpg)
When you want to know about a certain product, you ask those who actually shoot them.
The writer Randy Wakeman who constantly smears CVA and started all these tall tales and lies works for savage, Henry Ball " Smokeless savage muzzle loader inventor" son or brother in law " i forget which" was actually injured by one of the recalled CVA's. So this will certainly make randy some extra funds every time he sells a savage rather than CVA selling one.
Wakeman himself used to product test - review CVA Firearms. Now if these were as bad as Randy claims, would he take them into his hands, shoulder them, put his face inches away from a CVA barrel and shoot it to review the gun? Absolutely not!
Last year i shot a good deal over 5,000 shots through my CVA's with a big assortment of bullets, powders. I've also been shooting them since i was 14 years old. I am now 27 and so my experience with them has many years behind it.
This BS going on with Swampman is just to stir the pot and ignite tempers of those shooting CVA or Traditions brand muzzle loaders.
Most often, muzzle loaders and even centerfires explode due to misuse. That being an unapproved powder used in the muzzle loader, short started projectiles,mud, snow in the bore. One thing a lot of folks never think of is when they fire the gun, the primer goes POP! and then they scratch their head, re-primer and BOOM! Gun blows up. Why? Because when your muzzle loader misfired the first time, the pressure of the primer pushed the BULLET off the Powder Charge. Now that doesnt happen in a good deal of cases, the lucky only end up with a bulged barrel and a sick feeling in their gut.
Its easier to blame the builder of the gun, rather than man up and say, "Ok, i fudged up!"
The early model CVA Inlines made in 1995 and 1996 did have a problem with their breech plugs blowing out. Theres a recall on these models still to this day. I think they've recovered up to 96% of these guns.
In an email to Toby Bridges, i called him out on him talking down on spanish made guns and then getting sponsored by Traditions and praising them in his reviews.
His Response:
My only beef with CVA, and Traditions for that matter, has been that in the past they seemed to do nothing to insure American consumers that they had tested their
barrels to insure they had the strength and integrity to withstand some of the loads these companies have promoted using in those rifles. It is now widely known that
some of the popular three-pellet Triple Seven 150-grain charges with a saboted 300-grain bullet is pushing peak pressures well above the 30,000 p.s.i. level. Yet, the
barrels are proofed in the Spanish proof house to only about 10,000 p.s.i. - EACH BARREL IS PROOFED. And, that is more than I can say about American made muzzleloading
rifles.
CVA CEO's Reply:
Actually, each individual CVA barrel was not proof tested, nor were any others, be they Spanish or USA, but rather the design was tested to levels well in excess of magnum charge pressures � which is a 24,000. CVA barrel were marked with a proof of 10,000 psi because that was the Spanish minimum for muzzleloaders, but this standard was established back in the side lock days and was not relevant to magnum in-line. However, because the formula was on the barrel, Toby and others got into an uproar due to their misinterpretation of its meaning.
Toby:
I believe if either Traditions or CVA made an effort to test their barrels, here in the U.S.
CVA CEO:
Why should they be tested in the US? Are Berettas and Benellis tested in the US. The best guns in the world are NOT made in the USA, so why this insistence on doing proof tests in the USA, to pressures of 80,000 p.s.i. Why 80,000 psi? That is quadruple the pressure created by a magnum charge (24,000). Centerfire proof testing is only done at 30% above expected pressures. Why is he suggesting such a higher standard for muzzleloaders � unless he want them to be capable of sustaining smokeless powder pressures?
------------------------------------------
Not even Knight or TC Pressure test every single barrel.
Now to show you some examples of simple shooter error:
This person forgot to ram his ROUND BALL down on top of the powder charge.
This custom made Hawken exploded at a Rendezvous when the shooter loaded the gun, got distracted, loaded again, pushing the load only halfway down the bore due to another distraction.
When you want to know about a certain product, you ask those who actually shoot them.
The writer Randy Wakeman who constantly smears CVA and started all these tall tales and lies works for savage, Henry Ball " Smokeless savage muzzle loader inventor" son or brother in law " i forget which" was actually injured by one of the recalled CVA's. So this will certainly make randy some extra funds every time he sells a savage rather than CVA selling one.
Wakeman himself used to product test - review CVA Firearms. Now if these were as bad as Randy claims, would he take them into his hands, shoulder them, put his face inches away from a CVA barrel and shoot it to review the gun? Absolutely not!
Originally Posted by bigblock455
Shooter error. Theres a scare tactics website thats anti cva, this website was started by the ambulance chasing lawyer who is also a close friend of randy wakeman. Wakeman is the main problem, hes untruthful and doesnt tell you the entire story.
Last year i shot a good deal over 5,000 shots through my CVA's with a big assortment of bullets, powders. I've also been shooting them since i was 14 years old. I am now 27 and so my experience with them has many years behind it.
This BS going on with Swampman is just to stir the pot and ignite tempers of those shooting CVA or Traditions brand muzzle loaders.
Most often, muzzle loaders and even centerfires explode due to misuse. That being an unapproved powder used in the muzzle loader, short started projectiles,mud, snow in the bore. One thing a lot of folks never think of is when they fire the gun, the primer goes POP! and then they scratch their head, re-primer and BOOM! Gun blows up. Why? Because when your muzzle loader misfired the first time, the pressure of the primer pushed the BULLET off the Powder Charge. Now that doesnt happen in a good deal of cases, the lucky only end up with a bulged barrel and a sick feeling in their gut.
Its easier to blame the builder of the gun, rather than man up and say, "Ok, i fudged up!"
The early model CVA Inlines made in 1995 and 1996 did have a problem with their breech plugs blowing out. Theres a recall on these models still to this day. I think they've recovered up to 96% of these guns.
In an email to Toby Bridges, i called him out on him talking down on spanish made guns and then getting sponsored by Traditions and praising them in his reviews.
His Response:
My only beef with CVA, and Traditions for that matter, has been that in the past they seemed to do nothing to insure American consumers that they had tested their
barrels to insure they had the strength and integrity to withstand some of the loads these companies have promoted using in those rifles. It is now widely known that
some of the popular three-pellet Triple Seven 150-grain charges with a saboted 300-grain bullet is pushing peak pressures well above the 30,000 p.s.i. level. Yet, the
barrels are proofed in the Spanish proof house to only about 10,000 p.s.i. - EACH BARREL IS PROOFED. And, that is more than I can say about American made muzzleloading
rifles.
CVA CEO's Reply:
Actually, each individual CVA barrel was not proof tested, nor were any others, be they Spanish or USA, but rather the design was tested to levels well in excess of magnum charge pressures � which is a 24,000. CVA barrel were marked with a proof of 10,000 psi because that was the Spanish minimum for muzzleloaders, but this standard was established back in the side lock days and was not relevant to magnum in-line. However, because the formula was on the barrel, Toby and others got into an uproar due to their misinterpretation of its meaning.
Toby:
I believe if either Traditions or CVA made an effort to test their barrels, here in the U.S.
CVA CEO:
Why should they be tested in the US? Are Berettas and Benellis tested in the US. The best guns in the world are NOT made in the USA, so why this insistence on doing proof tests in the USA, to pressures of 80,000 p.s.i. Why 80,000 psi? That is quadruple the pressure created by a magnum charge (24,000). Centerfire proof testing is only done at 30% above expected pressures. Why is he suggesting such a higher standard for muzzleloaders � unless he want them to be capable of sustaining smokeless powder pressures?
------------------------------------------
Not even Knight or TC Pressure test every single barrel.
Now to show you some examples of simple shooter error:
This person forgot to ram his ROUND BALL down on top of the powder charge.
This custom made Hawken exploded at a Rendezvous when the shooter loaded the gun, got distracted, loaded again, pushing the load only halfway down the bore due to another distraction.
When you want to know about a certain product, you ask those who actually shoot them.
The writer Randy Wakeman who constantly smears CVA and started all these tall tales and lies works for savage, Henry Ball " Smokeless savage muzzle loader inventor" son or brother in law " i forget which" was actually injured by one of the recalled CVA's. So this will certainly make randy some extra funds every time he sells a savage rather than CVA selling one.
Wakeman himself used to product test - review CVA Firearms. Now if these were as bad as Randy claims, would he take them into his hands, shoulder them, put his face inches away from a CVA barrel and shoot it to review the gun? Absolutely not!
Last year i shot a good deal over 5,000 shots through my CVA's with a big assortment of bullets, powders. I've also been shooting them since i was 14 years old. I am now 27 and so my experience with them has many years behind it.
This BS going on with Swampman is just to stir the pot and ignite tempers of those shooting CVA or Traditions brand muzzle loaders.
Most often, muzzle loaders and even centerfires explode due to misuse. That being an unapproved powder used in the muzzle loader, short started projectiles,mud, snow in the bore. One thing a lot of folks never think of is when they fire the gun, the primer goes POP! and then they scratch their head, re-primer and BOOM! Gun blows up. Why? Because when your muzzle loader misfired the first time, the pressure of the primer pushed the BULLET off the Powder Charge. Now that doesnt happen in a good deal of cases, the lucky only end up with a bulged barrel and a sick feeling in their gut.
Its easier to blame the builder of the gun, rather than man up and say, "Ok, i fudged up!"
The early model CVA Inlines made in 1995 and 1996 did have a problem with their breech plugs blowing out. Theres a recall on these models still to this day. I think they've recovered up to 96% of these guns.
In an email to Toby Bridges, i called him out on him talking down on spanish made guns and then getting sponsored by Traditions and praising them in his reviews.
His Response:
My only beef with CVA, and Traditions for that matter, has been that in the past they seemed to do nothing to insure American consumers that they had tested their
barrels to insure they had the strength and integrity to withstand some of the loads these companies have promoted using in those rifles. It is now widely known that
some of the popular three-pellet Triple Seven 150-grain charges with a saboted 300-grain bullet is pushing peak pressures well above the 30,000 p.s.i. level. Yet, the
barrels are proofed in the Spanish proof house to only about 10,000 p.s.i. - EACH BARREL IS PROOFED. And, that is more than I can say about American made muzzleloading
rifles.
CVA CEO's Reply:
Actually, each individual CVA barrel was not proof tested, nor were any others, be they Spanish or USA, but rather the design was tested to levels well in excess of magnum charge pressures � which is a 24,000. CVA barrel were marked with a proof of 10,000 psi because that was the Spanish minimum for muzzleloaders, but this standard was established back in the side lock days and was not relevant to magnum in-line. However, because the formula was on the barrel, Toby and others got into an uproar due to their misinterpretation of its meaning.
Toby:
I believe if either Traditions or CVA made an effort to test their barrels, here in the U.S.
CVA CEO:
Why should they be tested in the US? Are Berettas and Benellis tested in the US. The best guns in the world are NOT made in the USA, so why this insistence on doing proof tests in the USA, to pressures of 80,000 p.s.i. Why 80,000 psi? That is quadruple the pressure created by a magnum charge (24,000). Centerfire proof testing is only done at 30% above expected pressures. Why is he suggesting such a higher standard for muzzleloaders � unless he want them to be capable of sustaining smokeless powder pressures?
------------------------------------------
Not even Knight or TC Pressure test every single barrel.
Now to show you some examples of simple shooter error:
This person forgot to ram his ROUND BALL down on top of the powder charge.
This custom made Hawken exploded at a Rendezvous when the shooter loaded the gun, got distracted, loaded again, pushing the load only halfway down the bore due to another distraction.
When you want to know about a certain product, you ask those who actually shoot them.
The writer Randy Wakeman who constantly smears CVA and started all these tall tales and lies works for savage, Henry Ball " Smokeless savage muzzle loader inventor" son or brother in law " i forget which" was actually injured by one of the recalled CVA's. So this will certainly make randy some extra funds every time he sells a savage rather than CVA selling one.
Wakeman himself used to product test - review CVA Firearms. Now if these were as bad as Randy claims, would he take them into his hands, shoulder them, put his face inches away from a CVA barrel and shoot it to review the gun? Absolutely not!
Yet Swampy will defend the walker trigger design on the Remington 700 that has maimed and killed people.
My my still kicking this around after all this time.First off there not mag. second you surely don't need a 150 gr of anything to kill a deer
While I have no experience with the modern guns , when it comes to the traditional ones made by CVA ,Traditions , I would have to agree with the others . 99% of the time , issues can be traced directly to the shooter . Either through improper loading to improper maintenance
30 years ago ol' Toby was a pretty fair writer....then he got greedy. Ain't been worth spit in 20-25 years.
Never had a problem with a Spanish ML (but then again I never owned one). Did have a problem with a Spaniard named Juanita one time though. She about wore me out!
Ah, Randy Wakeman and Toby Bridges. Haven't heard either of these words in a very l-o-n-g time. Nor have I read anything published by them in a respectful publication or we page. Those of us that have been around for a while will remember back when Toby was a decent writer, 25+ years or so ago, then as has been mentioned he got greedy. His beef with Savage began when Rob Coburn of Savage canceled his public relations contract with them for non-performance and conflict of interest. For several years, while he was on contract with them, Savage muzzleloaders were the best thing since sliced bread. He even sent me two of them to hunt with for a year so that I could write about them and be filmed using them on the show. The year Toby lost his contract with Savage I had dinner with Ron Coburn at the SHOT show and he mentioned that Toby was going to be cut loose. We did not discuss specifics but he offered me the opportunity to replace Toby but as I already had a overflowing plate I declined his offer. Within weeks of his termination Toby produced a video supposedly showing the tragic failure of not one but two Savage muzzleloaders. It hit the web and went viral. I called Toby to ask him about it and he explained to me, in what he considered to be a confidential conversation, of which whose confidentiality was all one sided with him, that he had staged the failures to insure the most horrific results possible. He stated that his goal was to do as much PR damage to Savage as he could because he was going to show those guys that they could not mess around with him. As a result of this conversation I was later called to testify in the court case filed against Toby by Savage. As good citizen of these United States I told the truth of what I knew when questioned by both sides. Sensing that he was going to lose the case Toby settled things out of court. This also allowed him to avoid the public relations mess this would have caused for him. So take whatever Toby says these days with a can, not a grain, of salt.
Randy Wakeman is a whole can of worms altogether. Randy began his career working in a machine shop, I believe it was in Illinois somewhere, as a machine operator and worked heavily with power transmission systems. He claims that this is where he learned all about metals. Suddenly, out of nowhere, back in the 1990's Randy made appearance on the muzzle loading scene, claiming to be an expert in the field. Most of the early stuff that Randy wrote appeared to be paraphrases of works done by other writers. Unfortunately, Randy's approach did not do much to endear him to those in the field. As a result Randy, much like Toby did later, took the approach that if will work with me then you are no good and I am going to do my best to make you look bad. Thus he began his career of slandering Spanish made muzzleloaders. His "testing evaluation" results were used as a basis for this campaign. And for a time he did develop a rather large following of the uninformed; to the point that he and Chuck Hawk formed the Chuckhawks.com web site to use as a medium for him to spread his version of the muzzle loading mantra. Fortunately, as time went on, the results of most of his negative evaluations so Spanish manufactured barrels was proven false and most people soon ignored him and moved on.
Randy Wakeman is a whole can of worms altogether. Randy began his career working in a machine shop, I believe it was in Illinois somewhere, as a machine operator and worked heavily with power transmission systems. He claims that this is where he learned all about metals. Suddenly, out of nowhere, back in the 1990's Randy made appearance on the muzzle loading scene, claiming to be an expert in the field. Most of the early stuff that Randy wrote appeared to be paraphrases of works done by other writers. Unfortunately, Randy's approach did not do much to endear him to those in the field. As a result Randy, much like Toby did later, took the approach that if will work with me then you are no good and I am going to do my best to make you look bad. Thus he began his career of slandering Spanish made muzzleloaders. His "testing evaluation" results were used as a basis for this campaign. And for a time he did develop a rather large following of the uninformed; to the point that he and Chuck Hawk formed the Chuckhawks.com web site to use as a medium for him to spread his version of the muzzle loading mantra. Fortunately, as time went on, the results of most of his negative evaluations so Spanish manufactured barrels was proven false and most people soon ignored him and moved on.
Originally Posted by gnoahhh
... Did have a problem with a Spaniard named Juanita one time though. She about wore me out!
gnoahhh,
You know the rules. You can't just tell a story without details -- and in this case pictures would be important as well....
Johnny $
I own and shoot a Traditon's "Shenandoah" flintlock along with a pair of CVA Hawken cap-locks... never had a whisper of a problem of ANY of 'em... and they shoot pretty darned straight with those bad ol' Spanish barrels.
Hasta la vista... ah... er... I mean "See ya"...
Strength & Honor...
Ron T.
Hasta la vista... ah... er... I mean "See ya"...
Strength & Honor...
Ron T.
The Walker trigger system never maimed or killed a singe person. It has never caused a single accidental discharge.
Current production spanish made muzzleloaders are no better.
Current production spanish made muzzleloaders are no better.
Randy Wakeman didn't know Jack about muzzleloaders until he picked the brains of a bunch of knowledgeable folks on Huntamerica forums back in the late 90's. Most of his vast knowledge came from other folks experience and that's a fact. I was there and remember all the stupid, neophyte questions he asked back then. The man is a liar and a fake, plain and simple.
Randy doesn't work for Savage. Even before he started shooting Savage products he was trying to save lives and limbs.
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Randy Wakeman didn't know Jack about muzzleloaders until he picked the brains of a bunch of knowledgeable folks on Huntamerica forums back in the late 90's. Most of his vast knowledge came from other folks experience and that's a fact. I was there and remember all the stupid, neophyte questions he asked back then. The man is a liar and a fake, plain and simple.
You are the liar....
Originally Posted by Swampman700
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Randy Wakeman didn't know Jack about muzzleloaders until he picked the brains of a bunch of knowledgeable folks on Huntamerica forums back in the late 90's. Most of his vast knowledge came from other folks experience and that's a fact. I was there and remember all the stupid, neophyte questions he asked back then. The man is a liar and a fake, plain and simple.
You are the liar....
Originally Posted by Swampman700
The Walker trigger system never maimed or killed a singe person. It has never caused a single accidental discharge.
I was there too and you're a liar. A trigger never killed anyone.
Maybe not but Remington has paid many millions of dollars in damages to those who have been killed or maimed by bullets accidentally discharged from their faulty rifles. Of course, you'd have to be capable of grasping how a trigger is SUPPOSED to work and how it's design can mechanically fail in order to understand exactly WHY Remington has paid and we BOTH KNOW you're not able. Retard.
It's cheaper to settle out of court. A big corp. can't win against a sobbing mom who shot her kid in the head because she's stupid. There's not one thing wrong with the Walker trigger.
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by Swampman700
The Walker trigger system never maimed or killed a singe person. It has never caused a single accidental discharge.
He is both Stupid and a big nasty Liar...his stupidity knows no bounds
Originally Posted by Swampman700
It's cheaper to settle out of court. A big corp. can't win against a sobbing mom who shot her kid in the head because she's stupid. There's not one thing wrong with the Walker trigger.
Nothing that a Timney,Jewell,Shilen or Rifle Basix trigger can't fix. Why then Did Remington change their "design"?
Does it ever bother you guys that you never get it right? Just askin'.....
Originally Posted by Swampman700
Does it ever bother you guys that you never get it right? Just askin'.....
I am always right so no it never bothers me.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
It's cheaper to settle out of court. A big corp. can't win against a sobbing mom who shot her kid in the head because she's stupid. There's not one thing wrong with the Walker trigger.
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by Swampman700
It's cheaper to settle out of court. A big corp. can't win against a sobbing mom who shot her kid in the head because she's stupid. There's not one thing wrong with the Walker trigger.
Forgot about those exploding shotgun barrels...must have been the shooters fault
Nope they didn't loose. They settled out of court. It's gotta suck to be you.
Yeah but they were the best exploding shotgun barrels "in the world" !
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Yeah but they were the best exploding shotgun barrels "in the world" !
ROTFLMFAO.........Damn they can't do anything right these days. Have you seen their 1300 dollar POS Benelli knockoff?
Originally Posted by Swampman700
Nope they didn't loose. They settled out of court. It's gotta suck to be you.
Generally when companies settle out of court it's because they are guilty as [bleep] hell.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
Nope they didn't loose. They settled out of court. It's gotta suck to be you.
Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Yeah but they were the best exploding shotgun barrels "in the world" !
ROTFLMFAO.........Damn they can't do anything right these days. Have you seen their 1300 dollar POS Benelli knockoff?
Companies do whatever is cheapest. You can't win against trailer trash. Jack Belk is dumber than you 2.
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Originally Posted by Oldelkhunter
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Yeah but they were the best exploding shotgun barrels "in the world" !
ROTFLMFAO.........Damn they can't do anything right these days. Have you seen their 1300 dollar POS Benelli knockoff?
Oh yeah I went into a gunshop and they had a few sitting there, the guy handed it to me , I shouldered it and said how much...I about dropped the POS right there when he told me the price. There is nothing in their current lineup that I would buy.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
Companies do whatever is cheapest. You can't win against trailer trash. Jack Belk is dumber than you 2.
Remington does CHEAP better then Mossberg
They'll own Mossberg too....soon.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
They'll own Mossberg too....soon.
They are on the same level and cater to the same dimwits. Why not sounds logical to me.
Anything sounds logical to you.
Remington is worse than Mossberg. Mossberg has always produced economy grade firearms and made no bones about it. Remington produces economy grage firearms, polishes them up nice and passes them off as high quality wares. Fortunately for Remington there are plenty of swampy's in the world who believe a bronzed turd is actually solid gold through and through.
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Remington is worse than Mossberg. Mossberg has always produced economy grade firearms and made no bones about it. Remington produces economy grage firearms, polishes them up nice and passes them off as high quality wares. Fortunately for Remington there are plenty of swampy's in the world who believe a bronzed turd is actually solid gold through and through.
I am ashamed to own my last 2 remingtons...They will be replaced soon enough with Tikkas and Vanguards. Thank Goodness they are still being sold .
Wakeman has shown up twice here at the 'fire, been shown a liar twice, and left twice.
Facts, are facts.
Facts, are facts.
GOEX and Pedersoli both booted Bridges for being a douche.
Here's Wakeman's history on the 'fire... last here in March of '08: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/userposts/id/3448
Here's Wakeman's history on the 'fire... last here in March of '08: http:/
Bridges showed up here for a week or two also. Didn't stay long.
On the first page of this thread, y'all were talking (arguing?) about something called a "Walker trigger". Is that the trigger that was designed and installed on the original Model 700 Remington BDL's?
If so, then I agree... it was a very dangerous trigger. It caused the M-700 to fire when the safety was taken off. It happened to my best hunting buddy and his older model Remington 700 BDL in .30/06. He had his M-700 fire a round as he removed the safety. He was so shocked that he tried it AGAIN... and, again, the rifle FIRED the round as he removed the safety!
This was prior to Remington admitting there was a "problem" and recalling the M-700 for a free new trigger installation. He paid to have his Pennsylvania gunsmith install a new, high-quality trigger on his M-700 BDL.
And the M-700 wasn't the ONLY Remington rifle that had such a trigger. The same friend just picked up a like-new Remington Model 600 in .350 Remington Magnum and the first thing his Tennessee (my friend moved his residence) gunsmith said to him was, "You need to send that little rifle BACK to Remington for a trigger/safety exchange! The gun isn't safe with that original factory trigger in it and Remington will replace the trigger and the safety free-of-charge!".
My friend just got the M-600 back from Remington... and he called to tell me that they did a beautiful job on the rifle and didn't damage or tear up his custom stock on the rifle when they cut a notch outta the custom stock in order to install the replacement safety.
Apparently, the Remington Model 600's also have a trigger problem which made them unsafe.
Jus' my 2 cents...
Strength & Honor...
Ron T.
If so, then I agree... it was a very dangerous trigger. It caused the M-700 to fire when the safety was taken off. It happened to my best hunting buddy and his older model Remington 700 BDL in .30/06. He had his M-700 fire a round as he removed the safety. He was so shocked that he tried it AGAIN... and, again, the rifle FIRED the round as he removed the safety!
This was prior to Remington admitting there was a "problem" and recalling the M-700 for a free new trigger installation. He paid to have his Pennsylvania gunsmith install a new, high-quality trigger on his M-700 BDL.
And the M-700 wasn't the ONLY Remington rifle that had such a trigger. The same friend just picked up a like-new Remington Model 600 in .350 Remington Magnum and the first thing his Tennessee (my friend moved his residence) gunsmith said to him was, "You need to send that little rifle BACK to Remington for a trigger/safety exchange! The gun isn't safe with that original factory trigger in it and Remington will replace the trigger and the safety free-of-charge!".
My friend just got the M-600 back from Remington... and he called to tell me that they did a beautiful job on the rifle and didn't damage or tear up his custom stock on the rifle when they cut a notch outta the custom stock in order to install the replacement safety.
Apparently, the Remington Model 600's also have a trigger problem which made them unsafe.
Jus' my 2 cents...
Strength & Honor...
Ron T.
I sit on my knees with my arms outstretched toward the heavens and cry to the gods to please deliver me and my pals from the likes of Swampy and Larry Root. Swampy wasn't dropped on his head when he was an infant, he was thrown across the room.
You guys deal with this idiot. I'm taking a three day weekend.
You guys deal with this idiot. I'm taking a three day weekend.
smokepole;
Yep. I'll put Bridge's crap up next.
As for Larry Root and Swampy; Rick obviously doesn't care about them being here.
Yep. I'll put Bridge's crap up next.
As for Larry Root and Swampy; Rick obviously doesn't care about them being here.
There has never been a problem with the Walker trigger. There are plenty of liars that will tell you they didn't cause the AD by tinkering or failure to properly maintain.
You can keep changing the subject but you can't change the fact that spanish made muzzleloaders are dangerous.
You can keep changing the subject but you can't change the fact that spanish made muzzleloaders are dangerous.
Originally Posted by VAnimrod
smokepole;
Yep. I'll put Bridge's crap up next.
As for Larry Root and Swampy; Rick obviously doesn't care about them being here.
Yep. I'll put Bridge's crap up next.
As for Larry Root and Swampy; Rick obviously doesn't care about them being here.
+1000
Originally Posted by Swampman700
There has never been a problem with the Walker trigger. There are plenty of liars that will tell you they didn't cause the AD by tinkering or failure to properly maintain.
You can keep changing the subject but you can't change the fact that spanish made muzzleloaders are dangerous.
You can keep changing the subject but you can't change the fact that spanish made muzzleloaders are dangerous.
Bullschit, on both.
You can change the subject, but you can't change the facts.
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Randy Wakeman didn't know Jack about muzzleloaders until he picked the brains of a bunch of knowledgeable folks on Huntamerica forums back in the late 90's. Most of his vast knowledge came from other folks experience and that's a fact. I was there and remember all the stupid, neophyte questions he asked back then. The man is a liar and a fake, plain and simple.
Not just HA there were others as well .
funny ??/ i dont know about you Blackhart , but i dont remember swampman being there ?
I also remember Wakeman threatening to sue many of us claiming copy write , after he used our information he gained , in his books .
I wish the old HA web site was still around . we could post proof to that
VA
Your list for some reason isn�t complete . I don�t see the thread containing the Pedersoli Information and resulting letter that I posted some where back .
In that thread , as I recall RW openly threatened to sue me hear on this forum for providing a link to one of his writings AND a quote which I gave him credit for .
but again maybe i missed it as just about every post that RW made , also had volumes of stupidiy from swampman or local Troll
Also Remington has had more problems then just triggers and shotgun barrels .
Remington also had a very big problem with rifle barrels . Most notably those with low 6 digit Serial # that were put on the O3A3. Thos dam things had a very common tendency to blow apart .
Granted that was fixed and only as far as I know , pertained to early war time production .
As to the triggers not killing anyone . Ahhhh sorry but I seem to recall that about 9 years ago here in Idaho there was a young man killed who was killed while hunting ,when his Rem went off .
Remington claimed he had modified the trigger and that it was shooter error .
But the 2 different local gunsmiths down in Boise who inspected the rifle for the ISP disagreed in court
Still changing the subject.....
Yep, Toby Bridges made it a whole, whopping 18 posts; all of them being an azzhole: http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/userposts/id/24365
Originally Posted by captchee
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Randy Wakeman didn't know Jack about muzzleloaders until he picked the brains of a bunch of knowledgeable folks on Huntamerica forums back in the late 90's. Most of his vast knowledge came from other folks experience and that's a fact. I was there and remember all the stupid, neophyte questions he asked back then. The man is a liar and a fake, plain and simple.
Not just HA there were others as well .
funny ??/ i dont know about you Blackhart , but i dont remember swampman being there ?
I also remember Wakeman threatening to sue many of us claiming copy write , after he used our the information he gained , in his books .
VA
Your list for some reason isn�t complete . I don�t see the thread containing the Pedersoli Information and resulting letter that I posted some where back .
In that thread , as I recall RW openly threatened to sue me hear on this forum for providing a link to one of his writings AND a quote which I gave him credit for .
but again maybe i missed it as just about every post that RW made , also had volumes of stupidiy from swampman or local Troll
Detailing the dumbphuckitude of Wakeman, Bridges, Swampass, and Larry Root would take lifetimes.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
You can change the subject, but you can't change the facts.
Nor can you.
The facts are that Remington has and had a problem with the Walker trigger, and the modern Spanish MLs are safe.
Additionally, it remains a fact that you are a collosal jackass, you're a liar and lack honor to back up the promise you made to Rick, and your ass ought to be long gone from here... long ago.
You bring nothing to the table any more, which is sad, as you do have a good base of knowledge when you don't resort to trolling constantly. Mark, you're a loss at this point, and it's self-inflicted.
Rick asked us to lay off of you, in exchange for you not being a jackass.
You failed, miserably.
Originally Posted by captchee
Originally Posted by Blackheart
Randy Wakeman didn't know Jack about muzzleloaders until he picked the brains of a bunch of knowledgeable folks on Huntamerica forums back in the late 90's. Most of his vast knowledge came from other folks experience and that's a fact. I was there and remember all the stupid, neophyte questions he asked back then. The man is a liar and a fake, plain and simple.
Not just HA there were others as well .
funny ??/ i dont know about you Blackhart , but i dont remember swampman being there ?
I also remember Wakeman threatening to sue many of us claiming copy write , after he used our information he gained , in his books .
I wish the old HA web site was still around . we could post proof to that
Well, he's Mark Lewis, if that helps.
I thought he was Bob Williams back then . but have been told he wasnt .
there are alot of folks that go by swampman .
to the pint that i know a couple that changed thier user names . others do everything they can to make it clear they are not the same swampman that posts here .
there are alot of folks that go by swampman .
to the pint that i know a couple that changed thier user names . others do everything they can to make it clear they are not the same swampman that posts here .
That's good, because they post misinformation.
If Rick asked y'all to lay off then why didn't anyone lay off?
I did what I said I would do.
I did what I said I would do.
Why does anyone have to ask anyone ekse to "lay off" in the first place?
I bet your mommy had to walk you to school and watch you on the playground to make sure the other kids "layed off."
I bet your mommy had to walk you to school and watch you on the playground to make sure the other kids "layed off."
You're the ones that's crying. I couldn't care less. You want a moderater that bans folks that don't agree with you. Why are you afraid of the truth?
ok so ill post this here as well
while it is from another thread , it also pertains to this one .
while it is from another thread , it also pertains to this one .
Quote
but lets try and get back on track here . im going to post a few of the Remington lawsuits for injury and or death . following those ill post a link to Remington's oppenion on the subject . try to look past this being about centerfire and try to relate the points to how it pertains to muzzleloading
Critical safety questions at Reming... 100 injuries linked to Model 700 rifle
Class action filed again Remington Arms for defective trigger , causing injury or death
Remington Defective Triggers
Lewy V Remington Arms
now lets take a look at Remington�s side . which by the way , in so many words once again points the shooter error .
as you watch this video keep in mind these things . improper modification and improper maintenance.
While this concerning the Walker trigger . I would point out that the improper maintenance theory also applies to muzzle loading regardless of the type of failure .
Also very same argument that Remington is making concerning the numbers of guns sold , also is valid IMO concerning CVA and the many other companies using Spanish products . IE the numbers of lawsuits vs. the number of sales .
As such , I would like to try and pull this topic back on track . So when you watch this video of Remington�s side of the story , try to keep in mind how this shooter error and poor maintenance issue applies to muzzle loading . Be it Spanish made , US made , Italian made . Modern or traditional.
My hope is that people will then realize why it is that the vast amount of time ANY failure of a firearm can be traced to shooter error . doesn�t mater if its RW , TB or Joe Snuffy ,who has the issue .
All to often what seems to be fact , is only fact if the story is twisted so as to produce a fact that simply isn�t there
Critical safety questions at Reming...
Class action filed again Remington Arms for defective trigger , causing injury or death
Remington Defective Triggers
Lewy V Remington Arms
Quote
On November 14, 1982, Mike Lewy went deer hunting on the family land where he and his parents, Evelyn and Jack Lewy, lived. He returned home around noon and entered his basement living quarters, placing his loaded Remington Model 700 bolt-action center fire 30.06 rifle (M700) on a couch. Prior to going to bed at around 10:30 that evening, Mike remembered the loaded rifle and decided to unload it. Mike pointed the rifle toward the ceiling and proceeded to unload it. The design of the rifle required the safety to be moved to the fire position in order to lift the bolt handle to eject a chambered cartridge. When Mike placed the safety on the fire position the rifle discharged and the bullet penetrated the ceiling striking his mother in the upper left leg while she was seated in a living room chair. Mrs. Lewy required hospitalization for slightly more than a month, but she has now apparently recovered from the accident.
Mrs. Lewy and her husband filed suit against Remington Arms and the K-Mart Corporation for damages, alleging three separate theories of liability: strict liability -- design defect, strict liability -- failure to warn, and negligent failure to warn. The Lewys alleged two design defects: 1) the bolt lock feature which required the rifle to be in the fire position when unloading and 2) the fire control mechanism which is susceptible to firing on release of the safety (FSR). Evelyn Lewy claimed damages for personal injuries and Jack Lewy claimed damages for loss of consortium. The jury returned a verdict in favor of the Lewys on all three theories of liability. Evelyn Lewy was awarded $ 20,000 in compensatory damages and $ 400,000 in punitive damages while Jack Lewy was not awarded monetary damages.
Mrs. Lewy and her husband filed suit against Remington Arms and the K-Mart Corporation for damages, alleging three separate theories of liability: strict liability -- design defect, strict liability -- failure to warn, and negligent failure to warn. The Lewys alleged two design defects: 1) the bolt lock feature which required the rifle to be in the fire position when unloading and 2) the fire control mechanism which is susceptible to firing on release of the safety (FSR). Evelyn Lewy claimed damages for personal injuries and Jack Lewy claimed damages for loss of consortium. The jury returned a verdict in favor of the Lewys on all three theories of liability. Evelyn Lewy was awarded $ 20,000 in compensatory damages and $ 400,000 in punitive damages while Jack Lewy was not awarded monetary damages.
now lets take a look at Remington�s side . which by the way , in so many words once again points the shooter error .
as you watch this video keep in mind these things . improper modification and improper maintenance.
While this concerning the Walker trigger . I would point out that the improper maintenance theory also applies to muzzle loading regardless of the type of failure .
Also very same argument that Remington is making concerning the numbers of guns sold , also is valid IMO concerning CVA and the many other companies using Spanish products . IE the numbers of lawsuits vs. the number of sales .
As such , I would like to try and pull this topic back on track . So when you watch this video of Remington�s side of the story , try to keep in mind how this shooter error and poor maintenance issue applies to muzzle loading . Be it Spanish made , US made , Italian made . Modern or traditional.
My hope is that people will then realize why it is that the vast amount of time ANY failure of a firearm can be traced to shooter error . doesn�t mater if its RW , TB or Joe Snuffy ,who has the issue .
All to often what seems to be fact , is only fact if the story is twisted so as to produce a fact that simply isn�t there
It boils down to this. With the loss of the 700ML there are 2 safe and useable muzzleloading brands still in production. They are Savage and Knight. Buy one and live to be old and in one piece.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
You're the ones that's crying. I couldn't care less. You want a moderater that bans folks that don't agree with you.
LOL. Swampy, do a search on all of my posts here and find one where I've said I want anyone banned, including you.
You won't find it, but give it a shot.
Then go and look for one where I said (sniff, sniff) "Rick told you guys to lay off me."
You won't find that either. You're the only one saying that.
You sniveling pathetic twit.
Originally Posted by smokepole
"Rick told you guys to lay off me."
You're the only one saying that.
You're the only one saying that.
I haven't said that. No need for you to lie.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
It boils down to this. With the loss of the 700ML there are 2 safe and useable muzzleloading brands still in production. They are Savage and Knight. Buy one and live to be old and in one piece.
I personally don't think we need a moderator. On most forums moderators can't ban. I think we need an admin to step in here and lay down the ban hammer.
If we just disagreed with you, I'd have no problem with what you are doing. However, I do have a problem with you spreading false information to people on purpose. I don't want someone that doesn't know any better to end up with some POS because they went off of your recommendation. Especially the guy about the Elk hunt. Now, anyone that has posted here for more than a week knows not to take anything you say seriously, but what about someone new here? They might not realize that, and that's why you need to be banned, so you can't give them false information.
Rick BAN SWAMPY NOW ENOUGH IS ENOUGH - 06/18/11
Originally Posted by slowr1der
Originally Posted by Swampman700
It boils down to this. With the loss of the 700ML there are 2 safe and useable muzzleloading brands still in production. They are Savage and Knight. Buy one and live to be old and in one piece.
I personally don't think we need a moderator. On most forums moderators can't ban. I think we need an admin to step in here and lay down the ban hammer.
. I don't want someone that doesn't know any better to end up with some POS because they went off of your recommendation. Especially the guy about the Elk hunt. Now, anyone that has posted here for more than a week knows not to take anything you say seriously, but what about someone new here? They might not realize that, and that's why you need to be banned, so you can't give them false information.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
It boils down to this. With the loss of the 700ML there are 2 safe and useable muzzleloading brands still in production. They are Savage and Knight. Buy one and live to be old and in one piece.
Bald-faced, unadulterated lie.
And, even you know it.
Considering what you shoot.... res ipsa loquitur.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
It boils down to this. With the loss of the 700ML there are 2 safe and useable muzzleloading brands still in production. They are Savage and Knight. Buy one and live to be old and in one piece.
The Gospel truth.....
Originally Posted by Swampman700
Originally Posted by Swampman700
It boils down to this. With the loss of the 700ML there are 2 safe and useable muzzleloading brands still in production. They are Savage and Knight. Buy one and live to be old and in one piece.
The Gospel truth.....
You're a liar and a hypocrite.
Helluva combination you've got there, Mark.
http://www.traditionalmuzzleloading...php?f=9&t=13472&p=131642#p131642
Oh, and this one:
![[Linked Image]](http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d34/Woodsman1956/Hunt1.jpg)
And, this one:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1158195
Of course, we can go to Graybeard's and see more evidence. Ditto a couple other forums.
Oh, and this one:
And, this one:
http:/
Of course, we can go to Graybeard's and see more evidence. Ditto a couple other forums.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
Originally Posted by smokepole
"Rick told you guys to lay off me."
You're the only one saying that.
You're the only one saying that.
I haven't said that. No need for you to lie.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
If Rick asked y'all to lay off then why didn't anyone lay off?
Wahhhhh. Why don't you guys lay off me?
Pathetic sniveling twit.
Add liar to that.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
It boils down to this. With the loss of the 700ML there are 2 safe and useable muzzleloading brands still in production. They are Savage and Knight. Buy one and live to be old and in one piece.
You forgot T/C...who sells more ML rifles in one month than the Savage or Knight ever sold in a year. CVA is running a very close second.
Doc
Originally Posted by Doctor_Encore
Originally Posted by Swampman700
It boils down to this. With the loss of the 700ML there are 2 safe and useable muzzleloading brands still in production. They are Savage and Knight. Buy one and live to be old and in one piece.
You forgot T/C...who sells more ML rifles in one month than the Savage or Knight ever sold in a year. CVA is running a very close second.
Doc
+1 and originally put Knight out of business because of that fact.
CVA outsells TC 3-1 the last time i checked.
Originally Posted by bigblock455
CVA outsells TC 3-1 the last time i checked.
That being said, I'm not saying that CVA's are bad, just that in this area T/C's certainly are more popular. That doesn't really mean they are or aren't better, just what people use.
Yea at $88.00 each they sell pretty good.
"Good clean fresh oats cost money. If you're willing to settle for oats that have already been through the horse they cost less."
"Good clean fresh oats cost money. If you're willing to settle for oats that have already been through the horse they cost less."
Originally Posted by Doctor_Encore
You forgot T/C...
T/C doesn't make a boltaction and the bores are so small, you have to special order sabots and projectiles.
Are you gonna cry too? Why do you call me a liar?
show me where you can buy a new cva for $88
Sabots are a pain in the rear end for any gun. My V2 Accura loves the crush ribs, but our apex, optima, wolf prefer either the high pressure red sabot or the harvester smooth sabot.
The Apex especially loves a .451 405gr bullet in the black smooth sabot.
Sabots are a pain in the rear end for any gun. My V2 Accura loves the crush ribs, but our apex, optima, wolf prefer either the high pressure red sabot or the harvester smooth sabot.
The Apex especially loves a .451 405gr bullet in the black smooth sabot.
The 700ML will accept any .50 projectile and shoot it well. It's the perfect muzzleloader.
Originally Posted by VAnimrod
http://www.traditionalmuzzleloading...php?f=9&t=13472&p=131642#p131642
Oh, and this one:
And, this one:
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/1158195
Of course, we can go to Graybeard's and see more evidence. Ditto a couple other forums.
Oh, and this one:
And, this one:
http:/
Of course, we can go to Graybeard's and see more evidence. Ditto a couple other forums.
This is the most irrelevant post ever. If anyone has any idea what the point of it is, please let us know.
Originally Posted by Swampman700
The 700ML will accept any .50 projectile and shoot it well. It's the perfect muzzleloader.
show me
I've posted the pics before. Search it out.
post some again. Anything new and not from 10 years ago?
Search them out....
must not be worth posting LOL
Originally Posted by Swampman700
I've posted the pics before. Search it out.
Swampy went out to Photobucket to destroy all evidence..LOL
Originally Posted by Swampman700
I've posted the pics before. Search it out.
I'll search 'em out. How long ago did you post 'em, swampy?
Wow. Either there is no moderator here or he/she needs to switch jobs. This thread is a cesspool of insults and accusations. Frankly, I've seen better manners from inner city teens.
Swampy has a new handle .. - 06/30/11
Originally Posted by IndianOutlaw
Wow. Either there is no moderator here or he/she needs to switch jobs. This thread is a cesspool of insults and accusations. Frankly, I've seen better manners from inner city teens.
Yet another handle Swampy? Give it up man and stay on your meds