My eyes are not quite what they used to be, and we can't use a scope here in CO. I have read reviews on both the Williams and Lyman peeps, and the Williams gets much better reviews... but the question is, is this a good addition to a muzzleloader that is a hunting rifle? I do like the idea of being able to quickly adjust the sight for a longer shot.

The Lyman Peep is about as good as it gets other than a scope. Williams not far behind

I wouldn't worry about dual sighting, or adjusting the sight for a shot on game - since most likely while the shooter's fiddling, the game will be gone.

The real limitations, especially with a frontstuffer, are going to be the shooter;s vision and the available light - which all boils down to about a 150yd max range, which is doable with a single zero and a max load.

I would respectfully suggest finding that zero range, then practicing shot at both shorter & longer ranges up to the maximum.

Remember Clint's words: "A man's GOT to come to terms with his limitations".

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I use a williams peep with a "twilight hunting peep" bought separately. It has a larger diameter peep to look through.

I also have used the Ghost ring set up with the Tru-glo globe fiberoptic sight. I feel that works great out to at least 100 yards.

If you zero with a 6 o'clock hold you still have a full view of your target.

i've been thinking about mounting the lyman peep on mine.

I also hate the FO sights.Too darn big and fragile.

If you have a 150 gr Extened range ML,you might find the Williams Peep won't go high enough to use the front FO sight if you are using a 100 gr load.

I ordered another FO one from TC, but Brownells carry them also. This was a 1 screw sight identical to what was on the original gun,but a diferent height. I cut the FO part off, and then filed down the remaining base to get a nice square blade about 1/16" wide. Now my Williams sits right at about 1/2 way thru the height adjustment dovetail.I was out shooting last week and could hold 3 shots within a 2" group at 100 yards , evenwith my old eyes.

When hunting I take the screw in aperature out and just use the threaded hole.

Just Ordered the XS Ghost ring sights for my Knight.

You shootin' round balls or conicals? Traditional or inline?

Knight inline. Last time I messed with it, 3 years ago, I was using powerbelts. I am waiting for a sample pack of the Thor bullets. I use a laser rangefinder if the game is not obviously within the hundred yard range and would feel comfortable shooting to 200 yards given a broadside standing shot. I would prefer to dial in elevation to guessing holdover, and am also thinking the peep would be easier for my eyes... is this eye crap supposed to happen at 53?! That's just not right.

corrected

Find one of the old SAKO multiple settting peep sights that have a center pivot and are marked 100. 200 and some 300. Obviously you have to figure out what each hole means on your rifle, but there is no peep sight that is quicker and easier to adjust.

Here's one on fleabay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sako-peep-s..._0&hash=item43b0793e28#ht_500wt_1355

Cobrad, sorry to say it, but eyes age, vision goes sideways and that's that. The process starts around age 40 for those otherwise not afflicted by vision problems. I used to have 20/15 vision, now I have cataracts and drive a Ford.

Without saying you can't have what you want, I would suggest that what you're considering might actually be somewhat cumbersome in the field as compared to simply shooting the gun and setting zero at a reasonable distance which allows you to utilize the old concept of Maximum Point Blank Range. In case you are not familiar with that concept: http://www.shooterscalculator.com/point-blank-range.php

I don't know the particulars about your guns velocity or the bullet trajectory, but you will probably find this approach more expedient than trying to twiddle knobs on a 200 yard shot. I could be wrong but I'm guessing that a dead center hold at 200 yards is doable with your gun if the basic sight in is properly executed.

With that said and done, it will simplify your sight selection greatly. By the way, I've been using this idea on a Win 94 w/Williams receiver sight for deer hunting near 3 decades. The deer don't much care for it.

The only way to correct for aging eyes is to keep getting closer.

I'm down to 50 yds with a peep sight. Bow range with a gun.

Dan, I've seen you around here for a good while. Always get a kick out of the smiling goat.
I'm familiar with MPBR, I use it to set up my centerfires for shots out to 300 yards. I haven't experimented enough with the MZ enough to know what MPBR might look like out to 200. I may be making things more complicated than they actually are. Aside from that, I am still thinking the peep may work better for me than open sights.

Cobrad
I would have to agree with Dan. if seeing the distance is the issue , a peep can only do so much to focus your vision and clear up the sight picture . For a lot of folks they help greatly . But if the adjustment is what your after , none are real quick in that manor .
I have used the Lyman . Williams and the TC peeps through the years . I liked the TC the best even though it wasn�t as nicely graduated like the Lyman or Williams .
To be honest with you , for hunting , I just ended up setting them at my sightin distance and left the adjustment to target shooting .
Eventually I pulled them and went back to open sights .

If your sight issue is more to one of not being able to see the sights , either front or rear , then you can have the sights moved so as to correct their placement for your changing vision . You could also change the rear to something like a semi or full buck horn so as to better focus your eye or go to something like a folding leaf rear sight at will give you the option to zero at 2 different distances . That way you don�t have to turn knobs. Just reach up and flip the longer distance leaf up on your open sight

There are, of course, several different ways you can go with this, but one is to adapt a simple Marbles or Lyman style tang sight to your muzzleloader for a long-range shot (whatever that means to you) and then use barrel sights (which can include a peep-type of aperture if you wish) for closer shots. There can be some issues in choosing the correct version of the Marbles or Lyman sight, but, if I can do it, anyone can.

Other types of tang sights can be used and whether you want to twirl knobs or not, there is nothing like a vernier sight for allowing you to pick the zero you want for the condition you are hunting at the moment, and then changing it if you want to hunt a different type of habitat a hour or a day later, without having to go to the range to rezero other, more conventional sights.

The type of rifle you have will dictate some of the possibilities, but there are lot of ways to go. They won't return your eyes to the acuity that they had when you were 19 yrs old, but they can help a lot.

You have not said what load you are using. 100 gr BP using a maxiball or 295 gr PB is a lot different than 150 gr and copper bullet.

You might look at getting some 1:25 mild reading glasses at Walmart or? and try them for shooting.For me,they clear up the sights and I can still see a 2" bull reasonably well at 100 yards.

200 yards would be a push for me shooting 295 gr Power Belts with 100 gr BP or 777. I have checked it and with a 100 dead on zero, I am 12" low at 200. That is way too much to come up with a MPB setting.

The important point to be made is that the front sight must be sharp and in focus. As long as the vital zone of the target can be discerned, the target can be fuzzy. If the rear sight is a peep or ghost ring, it will disapear from view.

Remember: when sighting, always focus on the front sight and not the target.

saddlesore, 295 power belt and 100 gr BP is what I used in the past, hence the need for a relatively quick sight adjustment at 200.
I like the tang site idea, have to take a look at that. If nothing else I'll determine an acceptable point blank range and that is my range. Either way I am thinking a peep sight of some sort will go on.

I use Saddlesore's method, a pair of 1.25x el-cheapo reading glasses. They sharpen up my sights and the targets are rather well defined too. I use them with all of my rifles that don't wear scopes, which is most of them. I even wear them while hunting. I let them ride down on the tip of my nose, and when I take a shot I nudge them up in front of my eyes with the thumb that is wrapped over the wrist of the gun as I mount the gun, all in one motion. Takes all of about an extra 1/4 second.

There are no rights or wrongs except how things work for you. For thirty+ years I have hunted my old T/C Hawken .50 with a Lyman peep. I do not use any insert whatever, sighting directly through the threaded aperture. Most of my elk have been taken on dreary, low-light days, and I find the large aperture allows me a better view of the target without adversely affecting accuracy out to 200 yds, generally my maximum game range.

Doesn't the front sight cover the whole animal at 200yds?

Not if you use the 6 O'Clock hold.

Put a williams peep on my 1845 plains rifle and it works good for these tired eyes, with a 6 o'clock hold no problem out to 100 yards with good light.

I understand 6 O'clock hold, but we're talking about 200yds with a ghost site. Target sights I could understand.

'Ghost ring' sights are all the fashion these days, but I like a well defined circle of light even with a relatively large aperture. I feel that by giving my brain a well defined circle it will more accurately compute the center of said circle, making for more accurate sighting. A fuzzy, or worse yet invisible outer ring isn't conducive to accurate shooting IMO.

I don't have a Ghost Ring and really don't know the diameter of them.
However, for a lot of years,I have huntdde with the aperature taken out of my peep sights and just use the trreaded hole. That is about .190 dia. I know a lot of others who do the same.
On targets, I use a samller aperture for finer sighting, but using it for hunting cuts down the ability to quickly aquire the trarget and the hunam eye will automatically seek the center.

A ghost sight, or taking out the aperture (similar) is fine out to about 100yds, or so. I use it too, and it's a fast hunting sight.

However, when the distance starts to get longer. It's not as precise. You need a smaller aperture and an appropriate front sight to go along with it. Front sights that come on muzzleloaders won't work that well at 200yds. It covers too much of the target. Even with a 6 o'clock hold.

I just checked my Garand. The front sight is about as wide as my two Muzzle Loader's and I competed quite sucessfully out to 600 yards. The rear aperature is smaller though.

How big is that target at 600yds? I've seen 1000yd targets ,and they were huge.

Plus, as you know. An elk at 200yds doesn't have a black bullseye on a white background to aim at. It's just a blob of the same color. (sort of)

As recall and that doesn't mean it's accurate, but the X ring at a 600 yard target was about 12 inches.Most good shooters could put about 50% in there, 25% in the ten ring and 25% in the 9 ring in a 20 round course of fire, prone, in 20 minutes.
No shootiong was done less than 200 yards and those X rings weer quite abit smaller.
Not saying I could do that today.

Way beyond me. We have a range with full size metal animals out to 500yds. The elk looks likes a rabbit to me without a scope.

My max distance for an elk with iron sights is under 100yds. A lot less for deer.

Good thing i'm sneaky.

Same here!!!

It's all good. What works for one guy is worthless to the next. My eyes are so bad that a ghost ring (or aperture-less sight) disappears entirely for me. There is literally nothing there for my brain to analyze. That's why I stick to relatively small apertures, with the added benefit that a small aperture gives in focusing the light enough to keep the front sight relatively sharp. Sure, it's not as fast for target acquisition, and sucks in low light (necessitating a swap for a larger aperture or dialing open the Merit adjustable aperture, or better yet lingering over breakfast) but my hunting philosophy has me grinning at a buck bouncing away from me in the woods rather than taking a chancy shot. When/if a trophy presents itself at a distance of over 100 yds., I wish him well. The same sighting arrangement is used on my centerfires, and if that same trophy presents itself at more than 100 yds., and I'm carrying one of my Mausers, I take a second and slide the scope onto the QD side mount and decide then if I really want to shoot him.

That has been precisely my experience. I discarded the smaller apertures the first day in the field in favor of quicker, brighter acquisition on the animal. Came in handy on my first muzzleloading bull, taken at 15 feet.

I have the same problem with a ghost ring. It disappears. I have to use something smaller, and then it's not as good for hunting in timber as a ghost ring.

The only answer for me is a low power scope.

I would have a scope on my MZ already if Colorado allowed them for hunting.

They do if your eyesight is bad enough. I have one of those licenses.

I'm glad to hear that. It would be a shame to have to quit hunting if something so easy can keep us going.
I doubt I qualify, but happy for you friend.

I think they'd rather see someone use a scope if it will get them a more humane shot.

I've been reluctant to use a scope yet except in rifle seasons. I'll probably use it for the first time this year in ML season. I expect to get some flak from the other hunters.

It does not show very well on this extremely ugly but effective muzzleloader, but it sports both barrel sights and a tang peep sight. The minideer in the photo was shot with the barrel sights at very close range.


But this largish doe deer was shot with the same bullet, same rifle, but using the peep sight at a bit over 200 yds.

I should have added, the front sight is pretty important. Here it is a Lyman 17A with two inserts. One is a crosswire insert (semicustom from Lee Shaver) and the other is a center post. That allows me to bracket a deer, even if I can't see the sights on the deer itself. I don't like an aperture front sight for hunting but use crosswires, or post and bead or straight post with a center hold.

If you order them directly from XS, you can ask them to thread the inside of the rear apeture. This will enable you to use Lyman peeps of whatever size you desire.